Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look. - Ubuntu

This is a discussion on Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look. - Ubuntu ; On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:56:34 -0600, Daniel Willard wrote: > nospam wrote: >> Ignoramus10476 wrote: >>> I used fedora for years and switched to Ubuntu. It is very well put >>> together and works much more smoothly than Fedora. ...

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Thread: Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

  1. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:56:34 -0600, Daniel Willard wrote:

    > nospam wrote:
    >> Ignoramus10476 wrote:
    >>> I used fedora for years and switched to Ubuntu. It is very well put
    >>> together and works much more smoothly than Fedora. It does have some
    >>> real benefits that accrue to users like me.

    >>
    >> I, too, agree that Ubuntu is more polished than the rest of the Linux
    >> distributions, but until big application makers such as Adobe and
    >> others support it with their first class applications, Linux is
    >> nothing, unfortunately

    >
    > I started with Ubuntu 6.06 LTS and moved to 7.10. Quite a difference for
    > the better. I have tried Knoppix for the KDE interface and think KDE has
    > some growing up to do. I would like Ubuntu to put KDE on a separate
    > track with its own repositories. I like Gnome and the Debian system for
    > maintenance. I think XP is the best OS that $MS has produced to date and
    > I still use it regularly but Ubuntu has become my favorite - warts and
    > all!
    >
    > If the Linux community in general really wants to be accepted in the
    > business world, they are going to have to do some collaboration in some
    > areas of their development. I recently built a new system and was using
    > on board video for starters. I got Ubuntu 7.10 loaded and decided I
    > needed a graphics card to go with the flat screen monitor. I installed
    > an EVGA GeForce Nvidia 8500 GT. Took me about a week to get the new
    > Nvidia driver to load and function correctly. Nvidia was not the
    > problem. 7.10 was. I eventually succeeded with the help of the Nvidia
    > forums. Had to purge several packages that were already loaded before
    > the new driver could function properly. A look at the 8.04 repositories
    > revealed the presence of the new driver. Where does that leave 7.10
    > users? **** out of luck. Just how long would it have taken the powers to
    > be to have ported the new driver to the 7.10 repositories? You folks are
    > going to have to learn to support what you write! Professional IT people
    > will not jump on the latest release ever! This seems to be a major
    > problem in the Linux community in general. Once it is solved, Linux will
    > begin to be taken seriously by the business community.


    Thing is, where does one draw the line? Who decides what gets backported
    and what not? Where does it go too far? That line is going to be drawn
    differently from person to person.

    The older versions are supported, but generally only with of security
    updates to the packages they contain.

    There is a backports repository that can be enabled via the software
    sources menu but I can't say if that would have made the newer driver
    package available. Never tried...I'm generally already running the newer
    Ubuntu releases before they go final. =)

    --
    Stephan
    1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

    君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
    君の事忘れたときがないから

  2. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:54:16 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > "Stephan Rose" stated in post
    > 1M6dnUZBd8pxqW3anZ2dnUVZ_urinZ2d@giganews.com on 3/30/08 5:48 PM:
    >
    >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:45:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Hadron" stated in post
    >>> fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >>>
    >>>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to
    >>>>>>> purchase Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too.
    >>>>>>> More bucks in your pocket.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>>>> Office.
    >>>>
    >>>> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not
    >>>> possible in Office. When it is.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to
    >>>>> any application.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>>>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.
    >>>>
    >>>> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>>>
    >>>> Your point is?
    >>>
    >>> Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to get
    >>> a freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF
    >>> Services that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the comparison
    >>> basis then OS X beats both Linux and Windows.

    >>
    >> So I'm imagining the built-in PDF print driver that Ubuntu has then?

    >
    > What about it?


    Well seeing how I have PDF support from any application that can print,
    I'm still trying to figure out how you claim OS X is superior in that
    regard.

    I agree comparing to Windows.

    I don't agree comparing to Ubuntu, I'd just call them even in that
    regard. Both have built-in PDF support...

    --
    Stephan
    1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

    君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
    君の事忘れたときがないから

  3. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    "Stephan Rose" stated in post
    1M6dnUBBd8rqqm3anZ2dnUVZ_urinZ2d@giganews.com on 3/30/08 5:59 PM:

    > On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:54:16 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "Stephan Rose" stated in post
    >> 1M6dnUZBd8pxqW3anZ2dnUVZ_urinZ2d@giganews.com on 3/30/08 5:48 PM:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:45:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "Hadron" stated in post
    >>>> fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to
    >>>>>>>> purchase Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too.
    >>>>>>>> More bucks in your pocket.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>>>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>>>>> Office.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not
    >>>>> possible in Office. When it is.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to
    >>>>>> any application.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>>>>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Your point is?
    >>>>
    >>>> Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to get
    >>>> a freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF
    >>>> Services that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the comparison
    >>>> basis then OS X beats both Linux and Windows.
    >>>
    >>> So I'm imagining the built-in PDF print driver that Ubuntu has then?

    >>
    >> What about it?

    >
    > Well seeing how I have PDF support from any application that can print,
    > I'm still trying to figure out how you claim OS X is superior in that
    > regard.


    I did not say that OS X was superior for merely being able to print to PDF,
    I said it has superior PDF Services. Here is an example of what I mean:



    You can add any folder or script to have your PDFs be processed... sure, you
    can do the same with Ubuntu by saving to the desktop and then dragging the
    file to a script or program, but this is a pretty cool streamlining of the
    workflow.

    > I agree comparing to Windows.
    >
    > I don't agree comparing to Ubuntu, I'd just call them even in that
    > regard. Both have built-in PDF support...


    Both have built in Print to PDF but only one has PDF Services.

    --
    I am one of only .3% of people who have avoided becoming a statistic.





  4. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    In article ,
    Stephan Rose wrote:
    > Office?
    >
    > Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
    > needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?


    Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
    $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
    which is quite a bit less than $300-400.

    Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.

    That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
    itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
    detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
    various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
    OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
    poor documentation of OO.

    Word isn't worth it if you are just writing letters to grandma, but if
    you are writing long, structured, documents, such as specifications or
    project proposals, its document organizational features make it a win.
    Until OpenOffice has a good outliner, it is not a contender.

    (The good news is that the OO developers have acknowledged that a good
    outliner is a high priority, and that the navigator stuff it now has is
    not a substitute for this. The bad news is they say it will involve
    some major work, so might take a while).

    --
    --Tim Smith

  5. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    Daniel Willard writes:

    > nospam wrote:
    >> Ignoramus10476 wrote:
    >>> I used fedora for years and switched to Ubuntu. It is very well put
    >>> together and works much more smoothly than Fedora. It does have some
    >>> real benefits that accrue to users like me.

    >>
    >> I, too, agree that Ubuntu is more polished than the rest of the
    >> Linux distributions, but until big application makers such as Adobe
    >> and others support it with their first class applications, Linux is
    >> nothing, unfortunately

    >
    > I started with Ubuntu 6.06 LTS and moved to 7.10. Quite a difference
    > for the better. I have tried Knoppix for the KDE interface and think
    > KDE has some growing up to do. I would like Ubuntu to put KDE on a
    > separate track with its own repositories. I like Gnome and the Debian
    > system for maintenance. I think XP is the best OS that $MS has
    > produced to date and I still use it regularly but Ubuntu has become my
    > favorite - warts and all!
    >
    > If the Linux community in general really wants to be accepted in the
    > business world, they are going to have to do some collaboration in
    > some areas of their development. I recently built a new system and was
    > using on board video for starters. I got Ubuntu 7.10 loaded and
    > decided I needed a graphics card to go with the flat screen monitor. I
    > installed an EVGA GeForce Nvidia 8500 GT. Took me about a week to get
    > the new Nvidia driver to load and function correctly. Nvidia was not
    > the problem. 7.10 was. I eventually succeeded with the help of the
    > Nvidia forums. Had to purge several packages that were already loaded
    > before the new driver could function properly. A look at the 8.04


    Yup - a major problem. Once which people in COLA will deny
    unfortunately. The guys in the Ubuntu group are generally more aware as
    they see the issues come up there.

    > repositories revealed the presence of the new driver. Where does that
    > leave 7.10 users? **** out of luck. Just how long would it have taken
    > the powers to be to have ported the new driver to the 7.10
    > repositories? You folks are going to have to learn to support what you
    > write! Professional IT people will not jump on the latest release
    > ever! This seems to be a major problem in the Linux community in
    > general. Once it is solved, Linux will begin to be taken seriously by
    > the business community.


    What was the issue here? Did "envy" not take care of it?

    >
    > If you really want to kick some MS butt, its Ready, Aim, Fire NOT
    > Ready, Fire, Aim!
    >
    > Thanks for a mighty fine product!
    >
    > Daniel


    Good post.

    --
    joshk@influx:/etc/logrotate.d> sh -n *
    apache: line 14: syntax error near unexpected token `}'
    apache: line 14: `}'
    the plot thickens
    those aren't shell scripts
    this wasn't chicken.
    -- in #debian-devel

  6. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    Stephan Rose writes:

    > On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:45:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "Hadron" stated in post
    >> fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >>
    >>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to
    >>>>>> purchase Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too.
    >>>>>> More bucks in your pocket.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>>> Office.
    >>>
    >>> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not possible
    >>> in Office. When it is.
    >>>>
    >>>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>>
    >>>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>>
    >>>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to any
    >>>> application.
    >>>>
    >>>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.
    >>>
    >>> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>>
    >>> Your point is?

    >>
    >> Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to get a
    >> freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF Services
    >> that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the comparison basis then
    >> OS X beats both Linux and Windows.

    >
    > So I'm imagining the built-in PDF print driver that Ubuntu has then?


    What has that got to do with anything? Who said it didn't? And even if
    it was in the repository or a download away, so what? It has the
    functionality available.

    --
    joshk@influx:/etc/logrotate.d> sh -n *
    apache: line 14: syntax error near unexpected token `}'
    apache: line 14: `}'
    the plot thickens
    those aren't shell scripts
    this wasn't chicken.
    -- in #debian-devel

  7. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    Tim Smith writes:

    > In article ,
    > Stephan Rose wrote:
    >> Office?
    >>
    >> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
    >> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?

    >
    > Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
    > $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
    > which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
    >
    > Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
    >
    > That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel. Excel paid for
    > itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
    > detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
    > various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
    > OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
    > poor documentation of OO.


    You must be stupid Tim. Gregory Shearman announced to all that users are
    not stupid and if you can't get the hang of the UI then your're dumb -
    or words to that effect. Apparently honing a good, confirming UI for an
    application is a waste of a programmers time and effort. I do not agree
    with him on this one at all - I am of the opinion that standardised UIs
    are very important indeed. And all of the main development bodies seem
    to agree with me. Oh well - I guess it's all about "choice".

    > Word isn't worth it if you are just writing letters to grandma, but if
    > you are writing long, structured, documents, such as specifications or
    > project proposals, its document organizational features make it a win.
    > Until OpenOffice has a good outliner, it is not a contender.
    >
    > (The good news is that the OO developers have acknowledged that a good
    > outliner is a high priority, and that the navigator stuff it now has is
    > not a substitute for this. The bad news is they say it will involve
    > some major work, so might take a while).


    I often wonder at the claims that OO has more than 20% if the industry
    desktop space. It's far buggier, slower and less featured than
    Office. Good enough for my paltry needs but not for mid to large
    businesses IMO.

    --
    I've always wanted to have a web site with a big picture of a carrot on it

  8. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    Daniel Willard wrote:
    I recently built a new system and was using
    > on board video for starters. I got Ubuntu 7.10 loaded and decided I
    > needed a graphics card to go with the flat screen monitor. I installed
    > an EVGA GeForce Nvidia 8500 GT. Took me about a week to get the new
    > Nvidia driver to load and function correctly. Nvidia was not the
    > problem. 7.10 was. I eventually succeeded with the help of the Nvidia
    > forums. Had to purge several packages that were already loaded before
    > the new driver could function properly. A look at the 8.04 repositories
    > revealed the presence of the new driver. Where does that leave 7.10
    > users? **** out of luck. Just how long would it have taken the powers to
    > be to have ported the new driver to the 7.10 repositories? You folks are
    > going to have to learn to support what you write! Professional IT people
    > will not jump on the latest release ever! This seems to be a major
    > problem in the Linux community in general. Once it is solved, Linux will
    > begin to be taken seriously by the business community.
    >
    > If you really want to kick some MS butt, its Ready, Aim, Fire NOT Ready,
    > Fire, Aim!
    >
    > Thanks for a mighty fine product!
    >
    > Daniel


    The new driver is not necessary. I just installed the exact same card in
    a biostar tforce 6100 with on-board nvidia video last week and it went
    without a hitch. First I disabled the old driver in the restricted
    drivers manager, shut down, installed the new card, entered the bios and
    disabled the onboard video ram to reclaim my 128MB, rebooted back into
    gutsy, enabled the restricted driver, rebooted. It was that easy. Works
    perfect. glxgears 6685 fps in the little window and 424 fps full screen
    @1680x1050, opteron 165 @2.7GHz.
    The 8500 GT chipset is well over a year old so there is no reason that
    the restricted driver available in 7.10 would not support it. Maybe your
    onboard driver was the older nvidia-glx driver or something else and you
    didn't disable it or uninstall it first? I learned the hard way years
    ago with nvidia drivers in windows that you always remove your old
    drivers first and then plug-n-pray.

  9. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    On 2008-03-30, Daniel Willard wrote:
    > nospam wrote:
    >> Ignoramus10476 wrote:
    >>> I used fedora for years and switched to Ubuntu. It is very well put
    >>> together and works much more smoothly than Fedora. It does have some
    >>> real benefits that accrue to users like me.

    >>
    >> I, too, agree that Ubuntu is more polished than the rest of the Linux
    >> distributions, but until big application makers such as Adobe and others
    >> support it with their first class applications, Linux is nothing,
    >> unfortunately


    I personally have no need for these apps. If I was to generate Flash
    content, I would use perl for this.

    There are often days when I edit dozens of pictures, I use XV and I am
    very satisfied with its productivity. (I sell stuff on eBay, hence the
    pictures)

    > I started with Ubuntu 6.06 LTS and moved to 7.10. Quite a difference for
    > the better. I have tried Knoppix for the KDE interface and think KDE has
    > some growing up to do. I would like Ubuntu to put KDE on a separate
    > track with its own repositories. I like Gnome and the Debian system for
    > maintenance. I think XP is the best OS that $MS has produced to date and
    > I still use it regularly but Ubuntu has become my favorite - warts and all!
    >
    > If the Linux community in general really wants to be accepted in the
    > business world, they are going to have to do some collaboration in some
    > areas of their development. I recently built a new system and was using
    > on board video for starters. I got Ubuntu 7.10 loaded and decided I
    > needed a graphics card to go with the flat screen monitor. I installed
    > an EVGA GeForce Nvidia 8500 GT. Took me about a week to get the new
    > Nvidia driver to load and function correctly. Nvidia was not the
    > problem. 7.10 was. I eventually succeeded with the help of the Nvidia
    > forums. Had to purge several packages that were already loaded before
    > the new driver could function properly. A look at the 8.04 repositories
    > revealed the presence of the new driver. Where does that leave 7.10
    > users? **** out of luck. Just how long would it have taken the powers to
    > be to have ported the new driver to the 7.10 repositories? You folks are
    > going to have to learn to support what you write! Professional IT people
    > will not jump on the latest release ever! This seems to be a major
    > problem in the Linux community in general. Once it is solved, Linux will
    > begin to be taken seriously by the business community.
    >


    Think about this:

    NVidia is the #2 source of all Vista crashes. It is a NVidia problem
    more than a Linux problem, though, obviously, it is a Linux problem
    also.

    i

  10. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    "Hadron" stated in post
    fspghk$7h9$4@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 6:59 PM:

    > Stephan Rose writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:45:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Hadron" stated in post
    >>> fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >>>
    >>>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to
    >>>>>>> purchase Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too.
    >>>>>>> More bucks in your pocket.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>>>> Office.
    >>>>
    >>>> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not possible
    >>>> in Office. When it is.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to any
    >>>>> application.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>>>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.
    >>>>
    >>>> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>>>
    >>>> Your point is?
    >>>
    >>> Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to get a
    >>> freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF Services
    >>> that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the comparison basis then
    >>> OS X beats both Linux and Windows.

    >>
    >> So I'm imagining the built-in PDF print driver that Ubuntu has then?

    >
    > What has that got to do with anything? Who said it didn't? And even if
    > it was in the repository or a download away, so what? It has the
    > functionality available.


    To be fair, as far as I know Stephan Rose has not seen PDF Services not even
    seen my page about them... so for someone who does not understand the
    concept of PDF Services might "imagine" that they are like the built in PDF
    print drivers that come with Ubuntu (or any of the many free ones you can
    get for Windows).

    RonB has no such excuse... he jumped to the conclusion that I was saying
    Ubuntu lacked something I *never* said it lacked.


    --
    Is Swiss cheese made out of hole milk?


  11. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:17:30 -0700, Snit wrote:

    > "Hadron" stated in post
    > fspghk$7h9$4@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 6:59 PM:
    >
    >> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:45:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "Hadron" stated in post
    >>>> fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>>>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to
    >>>>>>>> purchase Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too.
    >>>>>>>> More bucks in your pocket.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>>>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>>>>> Office.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not
    >>>>> possible in Office. When it is.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to
    >>>>>> any application.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>>>>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Your point is?
    >>>>
    >>>> Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to
    >>>> get a freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF
    >>>> Services that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the
    >>>> comparison basis then OS X beats both Linux and Windows.
    >>>
    >>> So I'm imagining the built-in PDF print driver that Ubuntu has then?

    >>
    >> What has that got to do with anything? Who said it didn't? And even if
    >> it was in the repository or a download away, so what? It has the
    >> functionality available.

    >
    > To be fair, as far as I know Stephan Rose has not seen PDF Services not
    > even seen my page about them... so for someone who does not understand
    > the concept of PDF Services might "imagine" that they are like the built
    > in PDF print drivers that come with Ubuntu (or any of the many free ones
    > you can get for Windows).


    You're right, I haven't seen those. I am mildly curious about it though
    so I may check it out one of these days. =)

    Generally though, 99% of my PDF needs revolve around viewing several
    hundred page long CPU docs

    --
    Stephan
    1986 Pontiac Fiero GT

    君の事思い出す日なんてないのは
    君の事忘れたときがないから

  12. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    Stephan Rose writes:

    > On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 20:17:30 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >
    >> "Hadron" stated in post
    >> fspghk$7h9$4@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 6:59 PM:
    >>
    >>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>
    >>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:45:45 -0700, Snit wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> "Hadron" stated in post
    >>>>> fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>>>>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to
    >>>>>>>>> purchase Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too.
    >>>>>>>>> More bucks in your pocket.
    >>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>>>>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>>>>>> Office.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not
    >>>>>> possible in Office. When it is.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to
    >>>>>>> any application.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>>>>>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Your point is?
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to
    >>>>> get a freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF
    >>>>> Services that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the
    >>>>> comparison basis then OS X beats both Linux and Windows.
    >>>>
    >>>> So I'm imagining the built-in PDF print driver that Ubuntu has then?
    >>>
    >>> What has that got to do with anything? Who said it didn't? And even if
    >>> it was in the repository or a download away, so what? It has the
    >>> functionality available.

    >>
    >> To be fair, as far as I know Stephan Rose has not seen PDF Services not
    >> even seen my page about them... so for someone who does not understand
    >> the concept of PDF Services might "imagine" that they are like the built
    >> in PDF print drivers that come with Ubuntu (or any of the many free ones
    >> you can get for Windows).

    >
    > You're right, I haven't seen those. I am mildly curious about it though
    > so I may check it out one of these days. =)
    >
    > Generally though, 99% of my PDF needs revolve around viewing several
    > hundred page long CPU docs


    I still have a hang up with pdf. Years ago I could never print them
    properly even in the office . Most more poorl, hardly navigable, badly
    indexed and humongous memory hogs. i dont know how Adobe managed to
    foist it on the unsuspecting public so well.


    --
    It's simply unbelievable how much energy and creativity people have
    invested into creating contradictory, bogus and stupid licenses...
    -- - Sven Rudolph about licences in debian/non-free.

  13. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    "Stephan Rose" stated in post
    gOOdnRGvk8xAxW3anZ2dnUVZ_jydnZ2d@giganews.com on 3/30/08 8:22 PM:

    >>> What has that got to do with anything? Who said it didn't? And even if
    >>> it was in the repository or a download away, so what? It has the
    >>> functionality available.

    >>
    >> To be fair, as far as I know Stephan Rose has not seen PDF Services not
    >> even seen my page about them... so for someone who does not understand
    >> the concept of PDF Services might "imagine" that they are like the built
    >> in PDF print drivers that come with Ubuntu (or any of the many free ones
    >> you can get for Windows).

    >
    > You're right, I haven't seen those. I am mildly curious about it though
    > so I may check it out one of these days. =)


    It is a nice tool to streamline workflows - say for making booklets or, as I
    use it most often, for making PDFs from a word processor to email to people.
    I do private consulting / computer assistance and it is great to be able to
    go into darn near any program and make a manual or whatever and then use the
    Print dialog to name it and put it in an email automatically. I can also
    use it to save PDFs to the desktop with settings of my choice... no need to
    set things up repeatedly.

    For a while I was having some issues with my print driver over a network -
    just had to wait for an update. Until the update came out, though, I was
    able to come up with a quick work around: I added a folder from the
    print-server computer (really just another desktop computer) and set that in
    my PDF Services - so when I want to print I can just easily convert the
    document to PDF, connect to the network share, and save it there. On the
    "print server" I use Folder Actions to watch the folder for changes - and
    when a PDF is added to the folder it prints it and then deletes it. Did not
    take much to set up, even for someone who is not a programmer (though I am
    an advanced user). What I found was once the driver was updated my work
    around is actually a lot faster than the driver so I still generally use it
    - though my work-around method does not allow me to get all the printer
    features so sometimes I print the "normal" way.

    Without PDF Services I would just print the "normal" way all the time - and
    my work around from before the update to the driver would have been to save
    the file as a PDF and then drag and drop to a share and then delete it: not
    a big deal but certainly not *nearly* as streamlined and efficient when you
    print quite a bit.

    > Generally though, 99% of my PDF needs revolve around viewing several
    > hundred page long CPU docs


    Well for that there is no need for printing, unless you like to read on
    screen. If you do there is a program on OS X called "Tofu" that makes it
    much easier to read a lot of text on screen:



    I would love to find something like that on Linux - but have not found one.
    Same thing with Windows.


    --
    "Innovation is not about saying yes to everything. It's about saying NO to
    all but the most crucial features." -- Steve Jobs




  14. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    Snit wrote:

    > "Hadron" stated in post
    > fsp3dt$c83$3@registered.motzarella.org on 3/30/08 3:15 PM:
    >
    >> Stephan Rose writes:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 22:04:10 +0100, dennis@home wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> "Canuck57" wrote in message
    >>>> news:rjRHj.139623$pM4.132386@pd7urf1no...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> OpenOffice is safer, as even saves in PDF without the need to purchase
    >>>>> Adobe. More people have viewed and vetted the code too. More bucks
    >>>>> in your pocket.
    >>>>
    >>>> M$ office saves in pdf without having to buy Adobe.. where did you
    >>>> dream that one up from?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> He said OpenOffice saves in PDF without having to buy Adobe, not MS
    >>> Office.

    >>
    >> Err, yes. Indicating what? Yes .... thats right. That its not possible
    >> in Office. When it is.
    >>>
    >>> Which actually, is very correct.
    >>>
    >>> "Export to PDF" is right here in my OO file menu.
    >>>
    >>> Of course, I also do have global PDF printing support available to any
    >>> application.
    >>>
    >>> So you see, I don't need to worry about compatibility issues when
    >>> sending documents to someone else. I send a PDF.

    >>
    >> All of which can be done from Office for free too.
    >>
    >> Your point is?

    >
    > Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to get a
    > freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF Services
    > that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the comparison basis then
    > OS X beats both Linux and Windows.
    >

    I've never used OS X. What is this builtin support for PDFs like? With
    Ubuntu, one can print from any program to a PDF file, anything that is
    printable. Does OS X do more than that?

    Cheers.

    --
    The world can't afford the rich.

    Q: What OS is built for lusers?
    A: Which one requires running lusermgr.msc to create them?

    Francis (Frank) adds a new "gadget" to his Vista box ...
    Download it here: http://tinyurl.com/2hnof6



  15. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:56:34 -0600, Daniel Willard wrote:

    > nospam wrote:
    >> Ignoramus10476 wrote:
    >>> I used fedora for years and switched to Ubuntu. It is very well put
    >>> together and works much more smoothly than Fedora. It does have some
    >>> real benefits that accrue to users like me.

    >>
    >> I, too, agree that Ubuntu is more polished than the rest of the Linux
    >> distributions, but until big application makers such as Adobe and others
    >> support it with their first class applications, Linux is nothing,
    >> unfortunately

    >
    > I started with Ubuntu 6.06 LTS and moved to 7.10. Quite a difference for
    > the better. I have tried Knoppix for the KDE interface and think KDE has
    > some growing up to do. I would like Ubuntu to put KDE on a separate
    > track with its own repositories. I like Gnome and the Debian system for
    > maintenance. I think XP is the best OS that $MS has produced to date and
    > I still use it regularly but Ubuntu has become my favorite - warts and all!
    >
    > If the Linux community in general really wants to be accepted in the
    > business world, they are going to have to do some collaboration in some
    > areas of their development. I recently built a new system and was using
    > on board video for starters. I got Ubuntu 7.10 loaded and decided I
    > needed a graphics card to go with the flat screen monitor. I installed
    > an EVGA GeForce Nvidia 8500 GT. Took me about a week to get the new
    > Nvidia driver to load and function correctly. Nvidia was not the
    > problem. 7.10 was. I eventually succeeded with the help of the Nvidia
    > forums. Had to purge several packages that were already loaded before
    > the new driver could function properly. A look at the 8.04 repositories
    > revealed the presence of the new driver. Where does that leave 7.10
    > users? **** out of luck. Just how long would it have taken the powers to
    > be to have ported the new driver to the 7.10 repositories? You folks are
    > going to have to learn to support what you write! Professional IT people
    > will not jump on the latest release ever! This seems to be a major
    > problem in the Linux community in general. Once it is solved, Linux will
    > begin to be taken seriously by the business community.
    >
    > If you really want to kick some MS butt, its Ready, Aim, Fire NOT Ready,
    > Fire, Aim!
    >
    > Thanks for a mighty fine product!
    >
    > Daniel


    Very good post Daniel!
    The loons in COLA could learn a lot by reading what you have written.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  16. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.



    "Snit" wrote in message
    news:C4158249.B12E8%usenet@gallopinginsanity.com.. .


    > Heck, on OS X the PDF feature is built in. On Windows you need to get a
    > freeware print driver. Neither Linux not Windows have the PDF Services
    > that OS X has - so I suppose if PDF support is the comparison basis then
    > OS
    > X beats both Linux and Windows.


    No you don't, you just have to enable it.
    Adobe didn't want M$ to include pdf by default so they didn't.
    You go to M$ web site and follow the destructions.
    Its different in the linux world where the pdf functionality is included
    whatever Adobe say.




  17. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    * Stephan Rose peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > Actually Adobe and others are fairly irrelevant.
    >
    > Sticking with Adobe, let's look at Photoshop.
    >
    > Other than graphics artists and related people, who actually legally and
    > legitimately owns and uses Photoshop? What percentage of people is there
    > that actually can use Photoshop to it's fullest extend? I know I sure
    > can't. I'm lucky if I can manage to draw a straight line.
    >
    > There is plenty of software in existence that can meet the needs of the
    > average person. The biggest thing that Photoshop simply has going for
    > itself is the name.


    I use GIMP to mix and match graphics, combining them in layers, adding
    special effects, etc. The multi-windows interface could use a bit of
    tightening, but nonetheless the GIMP works well for me. And it runs on
    Windows, though I ask, why bother anymore?

    > Now how about accounting?
    >
    > Sure, there is Quickbooks and the people I know in Accounting love some
    > features about it. I also hear them curse and absolutely hate some other
    > things about it. So it's got it's good and bad parts.


    When I had my own business, I bought Quickbooks, but never learned to
    use it. Gave it away to another small-business owner.

    > But what about home users? Personally, I just use Gnucash and call it a
    > day.
    >
    > Office?
    >
    > Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
    > needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?


    Somehow, Microsoft seems to have done a good job of convincing people
    that they have to pay for or pirate a huge office suite just for the
    kind of that Wordpad can do.

    > Point that I'm trying to get across is, ...
    > ...for the masses at home, in my opinion, they are beyond overkill.


    --
    When the PC was launched, people knew it was important.
    -- Bill Gates

  18. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    * rick peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > A turbotax port would be nice, especially for us sole proprietors who are
    > trying to run the biz as economically as possible.


    http://www.linux.com/feature/130716

    Filing US federal taxes under Linux
    By Joe Barr on March 27, 2008 (3:00:00 PM)

    Here's a quick look at three commercial tax offerings I found that
    work just fine using Ubuntu 7.10 and Firefox 2.0.0.12, even though
    two of the three vendors warn Linux users they are not supported.
    Translation: Don't look for vendor help if you run into problems.

    Joe had better hurry!

    --
    There are no significant bugs in our released software that any significant
    number of users want fixed.
    -- Bill Gates, Focus Magazine No. 43 (23 October 1995)

  19. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    * Tim Smith peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > In article ,
    > Stephan Rose wrote:
    >> Office?
    >>
    >> Sure, Ms Office has some neat features. But let's be realistic....who
    >> needs a $300-$400 office package in order to write a letter to grandma?

    >
    > Actually, for home users, Office 2007 retail price, non-upgrade, is
    > $149.95 for the software and licenses to use it on three computers,
    > which is quite a bit less than $300-400.
    >
    > Office:mac 2008 is around $130 for a similar deal.
    >
    > That's a pretty darn good deal for Word and Excel.


    Except that those products are hardly a good deal.

    > Excel paid for
    > itself when I bought my house last year, and used it to get a very
    > detailed understanding of my finances and what the consequences of
    > various options would be. I could have done the same thing in
    > OpenOffice, but much more awkwardly, due to the clumsier UI design and
    > poor documentation of OO.


    What a stupid thing to say, Tim. For the purpose above, OpenOffice is
    quite adequate.

    If you don't like OO Calc, then try Gnumeric. It's main developer has
    spent a lot of time master Microsoft-type functionality, I guessing.

    > Word isn't worth it if you are just writing letters to grandma, but if
    > you are writing long, structured, documents, such as specifications or
    > project proposals, its document organizational features make it a win.
    > Until OpenOffice has a good outliner, it is not a contender.


    For you (and, to be fair, some others). I've never used an outliner, ever.

    > (The good news is that the OO developers have acknowledged that a good
    > outliner is a high priority, and that the navigator stuff it now has is
    > not a substitute for this. The bad news is they say it will involve
    > some major work, so might take a while).


    My take is, don't buy Microsoft software until you find you
    absolutely need it. See if open-source apps do what you need, first.

    --
    As we look ahead into the next century, leaders will be those who empower
    others.
    -- Bill Gates

  20. Re: How unpopular is Ubuntu Linux, just take a look.

    * Stephan Rose peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Sun, 30 Mar 2008 17:56:34 -0600, Daniel Willard wrote:
    >>
    >> If the Linux community in general really wants to be accepted in the
    >> business world, they are going to have to do some collaboration in some
    >> areas of their development. I recently built a new system and was using
    >> on board video for starters. I got Ubuntu 7.10 loaded and decided I
    >> needed a graphics card to go with the flat screen monitor. I installed
    >> an EVGA GeForce Nvidia 8500 GT. Took me about a week to get the new
    >> Nvidia driver to load and function correctly. Nvidia was not the
    >> problem. 7.10 was. I eventually succeeded with the help of the Nvidia
    >> forums. Had to purge several packages that were already loaded before
    >> the new driver could function properly. A look at the 8.04 repositories
    >> revealed the presence of the new driver. Where does that leave 7.10
    >> users? **** out of luck. Just how long would it have taken the powers to
    >> be to have ported the new driver to the 7.10 repositories? You folks are
    >> going to have to learn to support what you write!


    Patience, son.

    Personally, I use Debian and, unlike many people, eschew the repo'd
    drivers in favor of downloading and building the driver (i.e. running
    the bin file) myself.

    >> Professional IT people
    >> will not jump on the latest release ever!


    They won't do that for Windows, either. Vista is a perfect example.

    >> This seems to be a major
    >> problem in the Linux community in general. Once it is solved, Linux will
    >> begin to be taken seriously by the business community.


    Which "business community"? Small business? Fortune 500 like IBM? Retail
    chains like Lowe's? (Both are Linux users).

    > There is a backports repository that can be enabled via the software
    > sources menu but I can't say if that would have made the newer driver
    > package available. Never tried...I'm generally already running the newer
    > Ubuntu releases before they go final. =)


    --
    Whether it's Google or Apple or free software, we've got some fantastic
    competitors and it keeps us on our toes.
    -- Bill Gates

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