Oops... - Ubuntu

This is a discussion on Oops... - Ubuntu ; dennis@home wrote: > Given the recent losses of data by government bodies I expect DRM to > become a requirement for data on systems in the UK which will put > windows and Macs at an advantage to Linux. If ...

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Thread: Oops...

  1. Re: Oops...

    dennis@home wrote:

    > Given the recent losses of data by government bodies I expect DRM to
    > become a requirement for data on systems in the UK which will put
    > windows and Macs at an advantage to Linux. If someone did DRM for linux
    > the users would patch it to bypass it so linux would not be a choice if
    > it happens.


    Bull****. You don't need costly DRM, all you need is a decent hard disk
    encryption and Linux can do that. Cracking any decent encryption will
    take a while.

    If you can bypass DRM on Linux, you can bypass DRM on Windows. In the
    first case, it's probably easier as you have the source code for most of
    the programs and the kernel, but relying on security by obscurity is a
    bad thing.
    --
    These are my personal views and not those of Fujitsu Siemens Computers!
    Josef Möllers (Pinguinpfleger bei FSC)
    If failure had no penalty success would not be a prize (T. Pratchett)
    Company Details: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/imprint.html

  2. Re: Oops...

    Harold Stevens wrote:
    > In <5GEBj.25768$J41.671@newssvr14.news.prodigy.net> Bill Baka:
    >
    > [Snip...]
    >
    >> the dumbest ones will toss it in the trash, and one I worked
    >> for had the stockroom guy smashing good power supplies so nobody
    >> could dumpster dive

    >
    > You have just got to be kidding me. I've worked for pointyhairs who tried
    > to bury their stupid mistakes, but this is ridiculous, even for them.
    >
    > So much for "green" corporate concerns, and "repurposing" rhetoric.


    It may have been due to the seller demanding that none of his products
    make it to the open market.

    --
    These are my personal views and not those of Fujitsu Siemens Computers!
    Josef Möllers (Pinguinpfleger bei FSC)
    If failure had no penalty success would not be a prize (T. Pratchett)
    Company Details: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/imprint.html

  3. Re: Oops...

    In Josef Moellers:

    [Snip...]

    > It may have been due to the seller demanding that none of his products
    > make it to the open market.


    Yahbut...

    I think my point remains: there's GOTTA be a better way to match all the
    "green" and "repurposing" rhetoric to so last-century marketing silos.

    (I interpret dumpster diving as meaning literally headed for landfills)

    Not looking for flames; just sayin'...

    --
    Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
    Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
    Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
    Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

  4. Re: Oops...

    Harold Stevens wrote:
    > In Josef Moellers:
    >
    > [Snip...]
    >
    >> It may have been due to the seller demanding that none of his products
    >> make it to the open market.

    >
    > Yahbut...
    >
    > I think my point remains: there's GOTTA be a better way to match all the
    > "green" and "repurposing" rhetoric to so last-century marketing silos.
    >
    > (I interpret dumpster diving as meaning literally headed for landfills)


    Maybe we mis-understand: I interpret "dumpster diving" as folks diving
    into my dumpster to salvage useful hardware. As I wrote: some
    manufacturers demand that suprlus store has to be destroyed and *not*
    put into the end user market.
    Electronics hardware is full of valuable materials, so I guess Bills
    company will send the scrap to a salvage company.

    --
    These are my personal views and not those of Fujitsu Siemens Computers!
    Josef Möllers (Pinguinpfleger bei FSC)
    If failure had no penalty success would not be a prize (T. Pratchett)
    Company Details: http://www.fujitsu-siemens.com/imprint.html

  5. Re: Oops...

    "dennis@home" wrote in
    news:fr8cpv$55i$1@news.datemas.de:

    >> and the manufacturer of which retains the right according to it to
    >> enter that system via the Internet and delete programs and files it
    >> disapproves of or which again fail to pass various and
    >> variously-wonky DRM algorithms.

    >
    > Are you confusing DRM with WGA/activation?


    No, it the DRM that is built into Vista, remotely controlled from MS
    headquarters, which Gates hasn't dared to activate because of the
    unpopularity of the OS to begin with. The DRM that would allow MS to tell
    you what movies you can watch, what music you can listen to, what software
    you can run. It's the crippling feature built in that would allow Gates to
    erase software from your computer and cripple the OS for noncompliance.

    Vista was to be the next step in the logical progression in which your
    computer become a dumb terminal remotely controlled from a central server.

  6. Re: Oops...

    elaich (elaich <|@|.|>) gurgled happily, sounding much like they were
    saying:

    >>> and the manufacturer of which retains the right according to it to
    >>> enter that system via the Internet and delete programs and files it
    >>> disapproves of or which again fail to pass various and variously-wonky
    >>> DRM algorithms.


    >> Are you confusing DRM with WGA/activation?


    > No, it the DRM that is built into Vista, remotely controlled from MS
    > headquarters, which Gates hasn't dared to activate because of the
    > unpopularity of the OS to begin with. The DRM that would allow MS to
    > tell you what movies you can watch, what music you can listen to, what
    > software you can run. It's the crippling feature built in that would
    > allow Gates to erase software from your computer and cripple the OS for
    > noncompliance.
    >
    > Vista was to be the next step in the logical progression in which your
    > computer become a dumb terminal remotely controlled from a central
    > server.


    Nah, it was nothing to do with Bill Gates. It was the ruling clique of
    giant lizard men. The ones who shot JFK. Elvis was alive, well and on the
    verge of revealing them until they destroyed the WTC to prevent his press
    conference going ahead.

    FFS.

  7. Re: Oops...



    "Josef Moellers" wrote in message
    news:fr8j4t$toc$1@nntp.fujitsu-siemens.com...
    > dennis@home wrote:
    >
    >> Given the recent losses of data by government bodies I expect DRM to
    >> become a requirement for data on systems in the UK which will put windows
    >> and Macs at an advantage to Linux. If someone did DRM for linux the users
    >> would patch it to bypass it so linux would not be a choice if it happens.

    >
    > Bull****. You don't need costly DRM, all you need is a decent hard disk
    > encryption and Linux can do that. Cracking any decent encryption will take
    > a while.


    If only it were that easy..
    encryption is just part of what is needed..
    you also need to control access to the keys.. guess what.. that's what DRM
    is.
    Sure you can do it manually but then you let people make people mistakes.
    So now you know why DRM is good maybe you could contribute to fixing the
    lack of DRM on linux rather than bitching that windows has a good thing?

    >
    > If you can bypass DRM on Linux, you can bypass DRM on Windows. In the
    > first case, it's probably easier as you have the source code for most of
    > the programs and the kernel, but relying on security by obscurity is a bad
    > thing.


    You can do DRM on linux but you would have to make sure it wasn't open
    source.
    Then you would probably need special calls to access files, etc. to ensure
    they aren't intercepted.
    So now we have a closed source version of linux, or at least binaries that
    you can't change, good isn't it?
    Now do you see why it would be hard to do DRM on linux, its not the code,
    its the principles that you would break.




  8. Re: Oops...

    "kmbfha" wrote in
    news:v_yBj.440284$Ib6.319111@fe03.news.easynews.co m:

    > "pcbldrNinetyEight" wrote in message
    > news:Xns9A5E7A2D1C92pcbldrNinetyEight@216.168.3.44 ...
    >> "nopam" wrote in
    >> news:47d664ad$0$16654$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
    >>
    >>> LINUX computers are to be taken off the shelves at WalMart

    >>
    >> Not a problem. I suspect some other enterprising retailer will take
    >> up the slack.

    >
    > HA. If Walmart can't sell them nobody else will.


    I don't know why Wal-Mart withdrew the product from their stores. It's a
    perplexing question, especially since IIUC they sold out their initial
    stock. I could speculate that they decided it just didn't fit into their
    product line or marketing philosophy. There are likely many products
    that might not be a good fit for them. Based on that premise I'd say
    it's premature to unequivocally state that no retailer can successfully
    sell Linux PCs.

    > The problem is customers Windows apps won't run on Linux so they take
    > them back.


    A prominent warning or disclaimer on the box would seem prudent to avoid
    confusion about this. If we're talking about a first time buyer though
    then this issue might not be a problem.

    > The average person has no desire to tinker with a computer
    > to make it work.


    I understand what you say but any OS will require some tinkering.

    > They want it to work out of the box.


    Again I understand what you say but I see no reason to believe that the
    PCs didn't boot and function properly. I assume they did indeed "work
    out of the box".

    > If it doesn't they either take it back or put it in a corner.


    Sadly we may never know what really happened. Lets hope this Wal-Mart
    debacle is just a temporary set back for Linux.

    --
    pcbldrNinetyEight

  9. Re: Oops...

    On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 20:23:07 -0500, mimus wrote:

    > On Tue, 11 Mar 2008 15:40:10 +0000, ray wrote:
    >
    >> Exactly what I would expect. Without proper training most sales people
    >> are ignorant. I can see a typical exchange:
    >>
    >> Customer: Gee - what's that it looks a little different?
    >>
    >> Sales: Oh, just some off the wall thing no one ever heard of. It won't
    >> even run Microsoft applications. I'm sure you don't want that.

    >
    > Walmart has salespeople?


    I believe I saw one once. I eschew walmart - the other evil empire.

  10. Re: Oops...

    Colin Wilson wrote:

    >>If MS is so bad why do you linux clowns spend so much time bashing it in
    >>this ng?

    >
    >
    > ...because it's closed source,


    Not a rational or accepted excuse for bashing MS.

    and we'd rather use linux if we can
    > make it work with unpuplished non-standard sloppy code. THAT is the
    > issue.


    What a load of self rationalizing CRAP!
    Frank

  11. Re: Oops...

    > Making rash assumptions there I see.. closed source but you know its sloppy
    > and non standard.


    They're not rash assumptions. Look at the Win2k code that was released
    a while back...

    As for non-standard, what have M$ ever released that conformed to
    someone elses' recognised standard when they could pervert it to their
    "own".

    I'll start with Java, web browsers, and document formats

  12. Re: Oops...



    "Colin Wilson" wrote
    in message news:MPG.224236208106ba0498a646@news.individual.ne t...
    >> Making rash assumptions there I see.. closed source but you know its
    >> sloppy
    >> and non standard.

    >
    > They're not rash assumptions. Look at the Win2k code that was released
    > a while back...


    Now you are believing what they say about windows being unchanged from the
    year dot. It is well known that M$ went through a phase of making the code
    better managed and better written a few years back. That is what is being
    used for win2008 server and vista not the XP code base. If you want to go
    back years then I am sure the opensource code was real rubbish, just as some
    of it still is.

    >
    > As for non-standard, what have M$ ever released that conformed to
    > someone elses' recognised standard when they could pervert it to their
    > "own".
    >
    > I'll start with Java, web browsers, and document formats


    Well Java wasn't exactly open at the start so I guess that should have been
    scrapped and M$ java was standard+ so you could write standard Java if you
    wanted but it made windows applications easier, just like all the
    development stuff for suns, HP, SGI, and even linux makes stuff easier for
    their platform than for someone elses'.

    Come to think of it Netscape added an awful lot of non standard stuff when
    it was young so that should have gone.

    As for document formats even ASCII isn't exactly open as it can't handle
    most of the worlds languages so that's computing gone too.

    As it stands word, excel, etc. are open formats and available to all to use
    for non profit.
    If you want to make cash from them M$ want their cut and probably deserve it
    just as you would if you wrote a program to sell.


  13. Re: Oops...

    pcbldrNinetyEight wrote:

    > "nopam" wrote in
    > news:47d664ad$0$16654$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
    >
    >> LINUX computers are to be taken off the shelves at WalMart

    >
    > Not a problem. I suspect some other enterprising retailer will take up the
    > slack.


    Yes - just some small companies like Dell, HP, IBM...

    It's now really easy to get Linux pre-installed machines. I just bought 120
    of them from HP for a project we have on at the moment. Each one was more
    than £120 cheaper than the Windoze "equivalent".
    C.


  14. Re: Oops...

    dennis@home wrote:

    >
    >
    > "Robin T Cox" wrote in message
    > news:LLzBj.21265$ki.14639@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
    >
    >
    >> In the near future, despite their past familiarity with Windows, people
    >> are going to find that they can no longer buy Windows on a new computer
    >> unless they buy Vista on high-end hardware.
    >>

    >
    > Guess what will happen.. they will buy Vista on high end hardware, who
    > knows it may even run the games they buy?


    It mostly doesn't.

    > The other likely scenario is that they will keep the XP machine they have
    > as it probably does what they want.


    Probably, for a while, until some virus or other malware makes it unusable.

    > I didn't go out and buy Vista BTW, it came as an insurance replacement for
    > a machine I broke.


    Hard luck.

    > However vista is nowhere near as bad as none stop and
    > some of the other trolls make out, its just different, not very different
    > but enough for the trolls to have fun.


    It's appalling! It's hideously slow, on even the fastest hardware,
    it /deliberately/ cripples video and audio playback, and has so many
    security failings that it is too risky to connect to the 'net...

    > I doubt if its different enough to make windows users switch to Linux in
    > droves, they are more likely to just stick with XP until they learn
    > better.


    It's funny - we're seeing migration to Linux in *huge* numbers. Mostly
    corporate clients at the moment, but home users are catching up - often
    because they want the same software at home as they have in the office.

    Even Microsoft admit that Vista is a disaster - sales have been
    "disappointing", there are new malware infections /specifically/ targeting
    it, and they're releasing the next version "Windows 7" /very/ early...

    C.


  15. Re: Oops...

    dennis@home wrote:

    > If only it were that easy..
    > encryption is just part of what is needed..


    It's trivially easy to break *any* DRM scheme - there's *none* that work.
    All of them are just minor annoyances to be got 'round. The sooner the
    entertainment industry realise this, the better.

    C.

  16. Re: Oops...

    dennis@home wrote:

    > Making rash assumptions there I see.. closed source but you know its
    > sloppy and non standard.


    /I/ can tell you that it is - much of the code is kludged together to
    "get /something/ working" without regard to efficiency, stability or
    security. The poor MS drones just have to "get /something/ out of the
    door"...

    > A lot of open source is sloppy as can be seen from the code ( I suppose
    > you could fix it if you wanted to).


    /That's/ the *big* difference!

    C.

  17. Re: Oops...

    dennis@home wrote:

    > It is well known that M$ went through a phase of making the code
    > better managed and better written a few years back.


    Complete and utter nonsense. Even Vista uses the 1991 NT kernel. It's an
    inviolate binary blob that nobody has a clue about - it was never properly
    documented, and any attempted changes result in disaster. MS /still/ don't
    have anybody capable of writing a new kernel. Reliable rumours have it
    that they're /buying/ a version of "Mach" for Windows 7!

    C.

  18. Re: Oops...

    Bill Baka wrote:

    > I am hoping that 350 shrinks to about 5 main contenders by attrition.


    It's happening already.

    > Read the damned articles or STFU.


    *Exactly!*

    C.


  19. Re: Oops...

    Christopher Hunter wrote:

    > pcbldrNinetyEight wrote:
    >
    >> "nopam" wrote in
    >> news:47d664ad$0$16654$4c368faf@roadrunner.com:
    >>
    >>> LINUX computers are to be taken off the shelves at WalMart

    >>
    >> Not a problem. I suspect some other enterprising retailer will take up
    >> the slack.

    >
    > Yes - just some small companies like Dell, HP, IBM...
    >
    > It's now really easy to get Linux pre-installed machines. I just bought
    > 120
    > of them from HP for a project we have on at the moment. Each one was more
    > than £120 cheaper than the Windoze "equivalent".
    > C.


    That's just the cost per box for the initial hardware outlay. With Windoze,
    the real cost comes later - purchasing all the proprietary **** that
    people "need".

    PS. Nice to see you're back. It will add some sanity back to this newsgroup.

    Cheers.

    --
    The world can't afford the rich.

    Q: What OS is built for lusers?
    A: Which one requires running lusermgr.msc to create them?

    Francis (Frank) adds a new "gadget" to his Vista box ...
    Download it here: http://tinyurl.com/2hnof6



  20. Re: Oops...



    "Christopher Hunter" wrote in message
    news:z54Cj.6$M9.2@fe3.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
    > dennis@home wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >> "Robin T Cox" wrote in message
    >> news:LLzBj.21265$ki.14639@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
    >>
    >>
    >>> In the near future, despite their past familiarity with Windows, people
    >>> are going to find that they can no longer buy Windows on a new computer
    >>> unless they buy Vista on high-end hardware.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Guess what will happen.. they will buy Vista on high end hardware, who
    >> knows it may even run the games they buy?

    >
    > It mostly doesn't.
    >
    >> The other likely scenario is that they will keep the XP machine they have
    >> as it probably does what they want.

    >
    > Probably, for a while, until some virus or other malware makes it
    > unusable.
    >
    >> I didn't go out and buy Vista BTW, it came as an insurance replacement
    >> for
    >> a machine I broke.

    >
    > Hard luck.
    >
    >> However vista is nowhere near as bad as none stop and
    >> some of the other trolls make out, its just different, not very different
    >> but enough for the trolls to have fun.

    >
    > It's appalling! It's hideously slow, on even the fastest hardware,
    > it /deliberately/ cripples video and audio playback, and has so many
    > security failings that it is too risky to connect to the 'net...


    So you claim, but as you are always wrong I think we can ignore that.
    I bet you haven't even run vista on a decent machine let alone a good one.
    How do I know.. because opening a window in <0.1 seconds or in <0.15 seconds
    doesn't make any difference and that is the sort of differences you are
    talking about. If it isn't get a new OS/machine as something is wrong.

    >
    >> I doubt if its different enough to make windows users switch to Linux in
    >> droves, they are more likely to just stick with XP until they learn
    >> better.

    >
    > It's funny - we're seeing migration to Linux in *huge* numbers. Mostly
    > corporate clients at the moment, but home users are catching up - often
    > because they want the same software at home as they have in the office.


    So you claim, but you are always wrong and real figures don't exactly match
    up to what you say.
    Its one thing for a corporation to switch to a custom app running on linux,
    and something else for a corporation switching its general IT to linux. No
    retraining costs or anything like that for the custom app so its easy. When
    you can prove a mass migration of general IT less us know.

    >
    > Even Microsoft admit that Vista is a disaster - sales have been
    > "disappointing", there are new malware infections /specifically/ targeting
    > it, and they're releasing the next version "Windows 7" /very/ early...


    Too different, what chance do you think linux has if they find vista too
    different?
    At least with Vista they can run the same apps, with linux the apps are
    different too.
    If you haven't learnt yet.. people don't like to change, especially with
    computers, it takes them ages to be able to do simple things and they don't
    want the hassle of something that changes.
    That is M$'s problem, XP was around so long people don't want to change.
    The same problem linux has, except linux changes far more frequently. Just
    ask the majority what puts them off linux and I am quite certain it will be
    stability of the interface.. linux appears to and with some distros, does,
    change far too often. Most people just don't want flying cubes and cr@p like
    that, all it does it convince them its another thing they have to learn and
    thats the end of it. Typical of a project led by programmers rather than
    people that understand what the majority want. Its not a problem until you
    get idiots like you that think linux is for the masses and have to find an
    excuse for its failings. Get used to it.. its people like you that are the
    problem.

    >
    > C.
    >


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