Dell and DVD Playback - Ubuntu

This is a discussion on Dell and DVD Playback - Ubuntu ; Hi, Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter: http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3 and the quote that stuck in my mind was: ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10 systems.The experience we wanted is simple — ...

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  1. Dell and DVD Playback

    Hi,

    Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter:

    http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3

    and the quote that stuck in my mind was:

    ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10
    systems.The experience we wanted is simple — when you put a movie in,
    it plays. It is easy enough for a child and an example of the steps we
    are taking to make Ubuntu as enjoyable as possible."

    Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    that this would be a grave mistake.

    Andrew

    --
    http://www.andrews-corner.org

  2. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    andrew writes:

    > Hi,
    >
    > Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter:
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3
    >
    > and the quote that stuck in my mind was:
    >
    > ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10
    > systems.The experience we wanted is simple — when you put a movie in,
    > it plays. It is easy enough for a child and an example of the steps we
    > are taking to make Ubuntu as enjoyable as possible."
    >
    > Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    > child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    > that this would be a grave mistake.
    >
    > Andrew


    Why would it be a "grave" mistake? Use some common sense for a minute
    and consider new users. Clueless nOObs who come to Linux would not how
    to turn this stuff on. However, l33t super haxors like you can disable
    it as soon as you like! Everyone is a winner!

    It certainly makes sense to me.

    And to the #1 PC supplier in the world, but lets not that jaundice our
    views eh? I mean, what do they know about their target audiences?

    --
    No one can feel as helpless as the owner of a sick goldfish.

  3. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On 2007-12-31, Hadron wrote:

    [...]

    > It certainly makes sense to me.
    >
    > And to the #1 PC supplier in the world, but lets not that jaundice our
    > views eh? I mean, what do they know about their target audiences?


    Hmmmmm: 'He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon'

    Andrew

    --
    http://www.andrews-corner.org

  4. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    andrew writes:

    > On 2007-12-31, Hadron wrote:
    >
    > [...]
    >
    >> It certainly makes sense to me.
    >>
    >> And to the #1 PC supplier in the world, but lets not that jaundice our
    >> views eh? I mean, what do they know about their target audiences?

    >
    > Hmmmmm: 'He who sups with the Devil should have a long spoon'
    >
    > Andrew


    Erm, Yes, Possibly. But again, what is the problem of defaulting Ubuntu
    to common sense actions to make it easier for the nOOb to land on
    his/her feet with their first Linux distro?

    You also conveniently seem to ignore my points about experienced users
    being able to disconnect autoplay functionality easily enough.

  5. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On 2007-12-31, Hadron wrote:

    [...]

    > Why would it be a "grave" mistake? Use some common sense for a minute
    > and consider new users. Clueless nOObs who come to Linux would not how
    > to turn this stuff on. However, l33t super haxors like you can disable
    > it as soon as you like! Everyone is a winner!


    1 b3L13\/3 7|-|@ d3LL \/\/1LL \/\/0R|< \/\/17|-| 7|-|3 UBU|\|7U
    d3\/3L0P3R5 70 /\/\4|<3 UBU|\|7U /\/\0R3 4|\|D /\/\0R3
    '\/\/1|\|D0\/\/5-L1|<3'. 7|-|3 155U3 0Ph d\/D pL4'/B4(|< 15 0|\|L'/
    7|-|3 b391|\||\|1|\|9.

    http://www.brenz.net/l337Maker.asp

    Andrew :-)

    --
    http://www.andrews-corner.org

  6. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    andrew wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter:
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3
    >
    > and the quote that stuck in my mind was:
    >
    > ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10
    > systems.The experience we wanted is simple — when you put a movie in,
    > it plays. It is easy enough for a child and an example of the steps we
    > are taking to make Ubuntu as enjoyable as possible."
    >
    > Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    > child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    > that this would be a grave mistake.
    >


    That rather sounds like you're saying that something man-on-the-street
    may expect such as DVD playing ability out of the box when buying a
    pre-configured Dell should never be included, which is a little silly in
    my view. If not, then I'd say you're misreading the intention - if
    someone tries out a Dell Ubuntu box and his kid says "dad, it won't play
    my DVD" and dad doesn't know what to do about it then surely it's better
    that it just does so in the first place?

    If you'd have included the prior part of the paragraph which read "One
    of the key requests from customers interested in Linux is the ability to
    watch their favorite DVD movies. (See idea Preinstalled Linux must play
    commercial DVDs from IdeaStorm user jonmca... but we ended up taking
    some advice from jmxz to use LinDVD). We totally agree and that's
    why....", then that adds some much needed context. It should be easy
    enough for a child to put a DVD in and play it, that's about all it
    says. Seems fair enough.

    Also, it doesn't make Ubuntu more like Windows as you mentioned in code
    elsewhere (surely that's rather like saying if you enable DVD playback
    manually that makes Ubuntu more like Windows, which seems odd - and does
    Windows even play DVD by default anyway? XP didn't out of the box, no
    idea with Vista), it just makes it sensible for what basic users of Dell
    machines actually want. What it may go against is the "free software
    only" ethos of Ubuntu (given LinDVD is by Intervideo and listed as
    "available only to manufacturers" and presumably only to those
    manufacturers who've paid), but that's about all.

    --
    [ste]

  7. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    andrew wrote:
    > Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    > child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    > that this would be a grave mistake.


    For the love of God, so what! Why should Linux be difficult to use. Why
    is this controversial? Why would it be a mistake?

    What the hell's wrong with a child being able to operate a computer? Oh
    yes, what a gave mistake. Get lost.

    --
    As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
    glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
    and this we should do freely and generously.
    --Benjamin Franklin

  8. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On 2007-12-31, johnny bobby bee wrote:
    > andrew wrote:
    >> Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    >> child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    >> that this would be a grave mistake.

    >
    > For the love of God, so what! Why should Linux be difficult to use. Why
    > is this controversial? Why would it be a mistake?


    I seem to be losing out pretty badly on this one but I shall try to
    clarify my position a little, although I sense a losing cause :-) What
    I object to mostly is the idea not that a child should be able to use
    linux, but that linux users as a whole should be treated as children.
    I have always found that the Linux operating system encourages a
    degree of independance and independant thinking and in many ways, not
    just this Dell/DVD issue, this idea has been eroded.

    > What the hell's wrong with a child being able to operate a computer? Oh
    > yes, what a gave mistake. Get lost.


    You have misunderstood my post, or more likely I have not expressed
    myself clearly enough :-) I have no objection to a child operating a
    computer, my own 3 children were all brought up in an atmosphere that
    encouraged active exploration of the computer world. Note however that
    I say /active exploration/ not passive acceptance of a computer
    package or OS dictated by another's ideas.

    And on a personal note, the 'get lost' thing: I wish you all the best
    for the New Year :-)

    Andrew
    --
    http://www.andrews-corner.org

  9. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    >
    > For the love of God, so what! Why should Linux be difficult to use. Why
    > is this controversial? Why would it be a mistake?
    >
    > What the hell's wrong with a child being able to operate a computer? Oh
    > yes, what a gave mistake. Get lost.
    >

    Amen! You are absolutely right! There are those here who want to be the
    dark practicioners of their Linux art. God forbid that something in Linux
    is easy! Can't have that. After all if it was easy, how could they come
    here and insult all the newbies?

  10. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On 2007-12-31, Little Gorm wrote:
    >>
    >> For the love of God, so what! Why should Linux be difficult to use. Why
    >> is this controversial? Why would it be a mistake?
    >>
    >> What the hell's wrong with a child being able to operate a computer? Oh
    >> yes, what a gave mistake. Get lost.
    >>

    > Amen! You are absolutely right! There are those here who want to be the
    > dark practicioners of their Linux art. God forbid that something in Linux
    > is easy! Can't have that. After all if it was easy, how could they come
    > here and insult all the newbies?


    Well I have never been one to insult anyone and I have in fact moved
    on from my own newbie status to providing a little assistance here and
    there. Just to back up my words with a few concrete examples:

    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=475246
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=558538
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=535950
    http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=565326

    etc.. Hence my being a little taken aback at being though of as
    insulting newbies.

    But if we can move away from the idea of me snatching computers from
    children has anyone had a look at LinDVD which is the software in
    question? It is /very/ closed source and I believe instigates a few
    region coding bars upon users.

    Andrew

    --
    http://www.andrews-corner.org

  11. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    andrew wrote:
    > I object to mostly is the idea not that a child should be able to use
    > linux, but that linux users as a whole should be treated as children.


    You're only treated as a child if you wish it or allow it. So what, so
    Dell includes LinDVD. You don't like it, then remove it. Get something
    you like. That's as adult as it gets. Giving you the choice to pick.
    Dell is in no way treating you like a child. They're providing a service
    (or software) that'll make it easy for most folks to use DVDs (legally),
    but if it doesn't suit you, then you're free to use something else.
    They're not locking you into LinDVD, nor preventing you from using
    something else, should you chose.

    > I have always found that the Linux operating system encourages a
    > degree of independance and independant thinking and in many ways, not
    > just this Dell/DVD issue, this idea has been eroded.


    Utter crap! Nothing has been eroded. Read above, you're as free as you
    were before to go nuts and get and use whatever you want. No
    restrictions. Not even their warranty can encumber your software choices.

    > Note however that
    > I say /active exploration/ not passive acceptance of a computer
    > package or OS dictated by another's ideas.


    You're on a roll. *Nobody*, not MS not DELL, nobody is forcing you to
    accept the packages or even the damn OS that is on *your* computer. If
    you don't like what you have, don't accept it. Change it. Jesus, you're
    talking like you live in the harshest Totalitarian state in the World.
    Are you? Cause even if you were, I guarantee that even there, you could
    use Linux the way *you* wanted. You're fighting a losing battle. Best to
    quit.

    > And on a personal note, the 'get lost' thing: I wish you all the best
    > for the New Year :-)


    Dell, is trying to get a few more Linux boxes out the door, into the
    hands of people who may have otherwise been using Windows. Who cares
    that they include ****ty software? Let them be.

    Cheers to you.

    --
    As we enjoy great advantages from inventions of others, we should be
    glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours;
    and this we should do freely and generously.
    --Benjamin Franklin

  12. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    andrew writes:

    > On 2007-12-31, Little Gorm wrote:
    >>>
    >>> For the love of God, so what! Why should Linux be difficult to use. Why
    >>> is this controversial? Why would it be a mistake?
    >>>
    >>> What the hell's wrong with a child being able to operate a computer? Oh
    >>> yes, what a gave mistake. Get lost.
    >>>

    >> Amen! You are absolutely right! There are those here who want to be the
    >> dark practicioners of their Linux art. God forbid that something in Linux
    >> is easy! Can't have that. After all if it was easy, how could they come
    >> here and insult all the newbies?

    >
    > Well I have never been one to insult anyone and I have in fact moved
    > on from my own newbie status to providing a little assistance here and
    > there. Just to back up my words with a few concrete examples:
    >
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=475246
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=558538
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=535950
    > http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=565326
    >
    > etc.. Hence my being a little taken aback at being though of as
    > insulting newbies.
    >
    > But if we can move away from the idea of me snatching computers from
    > children has anyone had a look at LinDVD which is the software in
    > question? It is /very/ closed source and I believe instigates a few
    > region coding bars upon users.


    nOObs simply don't care. And if you do, remove it.

    This is Ubuntu remember, not Debian.

    >
    > Andrew


    --
    El nombre de amigo es corriente, pero la fe en la amistad, rara.
    -- Fedro. (15 a.C.-50) Fabulista latino.

  13. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    johnny bobby bee wrote:
    > andrew wrote:
    >> Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    >> child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    >> that this would be a grave mistake.

    >
    > For the love of God, so what! Why should Linux be difficult to use. Why
    > is this controversial? Why would it be a mistake?
    >
    > What the hell's wrong with a child being able to operate a computer? Oh
    > yes, what a gave mistake. Get lost.
    >



    Its not the path Ubuntu has taken. Its the path
    Dell has taken or the path the owner has taken.
    Ubuntu is about choice. If I want something on my
    computer what has Ubuntu got to do with it?
    caver1

  14. Re: Dell and DVD Playback


    >
    > But if we can move away from the idea of me snatching computers from
    > children has anyone had a look at LinDVD which is the software in
    > question? It is /very/ closed source and I believe instigates a few
    > region coding bars upon users.
    >
    > Andrew
    >




    Thats fine if you want to stay away from LinDvd
    for that reason. No Problem. But Linux is about
    choice and if others want it thats their choice.
    With the same reasoning, Do you use Wine. If so
    why? It is written so the user can use closed
    source programming in a Linux environment.
    Remember the key word is choice.... not of the OS
    but of the user.
    caver1

  15. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    In <4778f09e$0$8829$4c368faf@roadrunner.com> caver1:

    [Snip...]

    > Its not the path Ubuntu has taken. Its the path
    > Dell has taken or the path the owner has taken.


    Precisely. The two-edged sword of FOSS: you can do almost whatever you damn
    well please with it, as long as you allow everybody else the same luxury.

    --
    Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
    Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
    Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
    Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

  16. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 08:44:14 -0500
    caver1 wrote:

    > Thats fine if you want to stay away from LinDvd
    > for that reason. No Problem. But Linux is about
    > choice and if others want it thats their choice.
    > With the same reasoning, Do you use Wine. If so
    > why? It is written so the user can use closed
    > source programming in a Linux environment.
    > Remember the key word is choice.... not of the OS
    > but of the user.


    Same would go for some video drivers too.

    --
    Have you ever imagined a world with no hypothetical situations?

  17. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:50:41 +1100, andrew wrote:

    > Hi,
    >
    > Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter:
    >
    > http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3
    >
    > and the quote that stuck in my mind was:
    >
    > ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10
    > systems.The experience we wanted is simple - when you put a movie in,
    > it plays. It is easy enough for a child and an example of the steps we
    > are taking to make Ubuntu as enjoyable as possible."
    >
    > Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    > child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    > that this would be a grave mistake.
    >
    > Andrew


    It was my understanding that the reason Linux distros don't include DVD
    players by default is because the terms of the agreement
    necessary to obtain a license and decryption keys to *legally* play DVDs
    specify that the end-user must not be able to access the decrypted
    content. This is completely against the whole philosophy of "Free/Open
    Source Software", which basically says that the end-user can do anything
    he wants with his computer and its software.

    If Dell is supplying a DVD player that can handle commercially produced
    DVD movies, I would presume that it is a closed source/proprietary product
    added on the the Ubuntu distro.

    I have no objection to making Linux easy-to-use. What offends the
    Linux/FOSS community is the idea that users *must not* have access to the
    inner workings of their OS.

    Linux is like a car: some people just want it to get them from point A to
    point B, without worrying about the details. Other people like to tweak
    the timing, modify the cam shaft, enlarge the intake manifold, etc, etc.
    FOSS lets you tinker if you like. Closed software means that you are not
    allowed to open the hood.

    --
    MarkA
    (My OTHER sig line is clever)


  18. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    In alt.os.linux.ubuntu, johnny bobby bee had the audacity to say that:

    > andrew wrote:
    >> I object to mostly is the idea not that a child should be able to use
    >> linux, but that linux users as a whole should be treated as children.

    >
    > You're only treated as a child if you wish it or allow it. So what, so
    > Dell includes LinDVD. You don't like it, then remove it. Get something
    > you like. That's as adult as it gets. Giving you the choice to pick.
    > Dell is in no way treating you like a child. They're providing a service
    > (or software) that'll make it easy for most folks to use DVDs (legally),
    > but if it doesn't suit you, then you're free to use something else.
    > They're not locking you into LinDVD, nor preventing you from using
    > something else, should you chose.
    >
    >> I have always found that the Linux operating system encourages a
    >> degree of independance and independant thinking and in many ways, not
    >> just this Dell/DVD issue, this idea has been eroded.

    >
    > Utter crap! Nothing has been eroded. Read above, you're as free as you
    > were before to go nuts and get and use whatever you want. No
    > restrictions. Not even their warranty can encumber your software choices.
    >
    >> Note however that
    >> I say /active exploration/ not passive acceptance of a computer
    >> package or OS dictated by another's ideas.

    >
    > You're on a roll. *Nobody*, not MS not DELL, nobody is forcing you to
    > accept the packages or even the damn OS that is on *your* computer. If
    > you don't like what you have, don't accept it. Change it. Jesus, you're
    > talking like you live in the harshest Totalitarian state in the World.
    > Are you? Cause even if you were, I guarantee that even there, you could
    > use Linux the way *you* wanted. You're fighting a losing battle. Best to
    > quit.
    >
    >> And on a personal note, the 'get lost' thing: I wish you all the best
    >> for the New Year :-)

    >
    > Dell, is trying to get a few more Linux boxes out the door, into the
    > hands of people who may have otherwise been using Windows. Who cares
    > that they include ****ty software? Let them be.
    >
    > Cheers to you.
    >


    Right. The key is being able to modify the default configuration using
    standard Linux tools. If this is adhered to, then I have no objection to
    *any* default configuration, no matter how simple or brainless. I have to
    tune the configuration anyway, so one more step would not bother me.

    *R* *H*


    --
    AWAKE! FEAR! FIRE! FOES! AWAKE!
    FEAR! FIRE! FOES!
    AWAKE! AWAKE!
    -- J. R. R. Tolkienk

  19. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    MarkA wrote:
    > On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:50:41 +1100, andrew wrote:
    >
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter:
    >>
    >> http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3
    >>
    >> and the quote that stuck in my mind was:
    >>
    >> ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10
    >> systems.The experience we wanted is simple - when you put a movie in,
    >> it plays. It is easy enough for a child and an example of the steps we
    >> are taking to make Ubuntu as enjoyable as possible."
    >>
    >> Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    >> child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    >> that this would be a grave mistake.
    >>
    >> Andrew

    >
    > It was my understanding that the reason Linux distros don't include DVD
    > players by default is because the terms of the agreement
    > necessary to obtain a license and decryption keys to *legally* play DVDs
    > specify that the end-user must not be able to access the decrypted
    > content. This is completely against the whole philosophy of "Free/Open
    > Source Software", which basically says that the end-user can do anything
    > he wants with his computer and its software.
    >
    > If Dell is supplying a DVD player that can handle commercially produced
    > DVD movies, I would presume that it is a closed source/proprietary product
    > added on the the Ubuntu distro.
    >
    > I have no objection to making Linux easy-to-use. What offends the
    > Linux/FOSS community is the idea that users *must not* have access to the
    > inner workings of their OS.
    >
    > Linux is like a car: some people just want it to get them from point A to
    > point B, without worrying about the details. Other people like to tweak
    > the timing, modify the cam shaft, enlarge the intake manifold, etc, etc.
    > FOSS lets you tinker if you like. Closed software means that you are not
    > allowed to open the hood.
    >



    That's true. But at the same time we are free to
    add any software that we want. Look at the ones
    that want to play closed source games through
    Wine. Its their choice.
    Or should all of us bow to the FOSS Nazis and ony
    use what they tell us we can.
    After all I don't know if I am smart enough to
    think for myself.
    caver1

  20. Re: Dell and DVD Playback

    On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 20:15:27 -0500, caver1 wrote:

    > MarkA wrote:
    >> On Mon, 31 Dec 2007 10:50:41 +1100, andrew wrote:
    >>
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> Just read the following from Dell and the Ubuntu newsletter:
    >>>
    >>> http://tinyurl.com/yrgzc3
    >>>
    >>> and the quote that stuck in my mind was:
    >>>
    >>> ".... we now include built-in DVD movie playback with all Ubuntu 7.10
    >>> systems.The experience we wanted is simple - when you put a movie in,
    >>> it plays. It is easy enough for a child and an example of the steps we
    >>> are taking to make Ubuntu as enjoyable as possible."
    >>>
    >>> Is that really the path that Ubuntu should walk: "easy enough for a
    >>> child"??? It is my opinion, and I realise that this is controversial,
    >>> that this would be a grave mistake.
    >>>
    >>> Andrew

    >>
    >> It was my understanding that the reason Linux distros don't include DVD
    >> players by default is because the terms of the agreement necessary to
    >> obtain a license and decryption keys to *legally* play DVDs specify
    >> that the end-user must not be able to access the decrypted content.
    >> This is completely against the whole philosophy of "Free/Open Source
    >> Software", which basically says that the end-user can do anything he
    >> wants with his computer and its software.
    >>
    >> If Dell is supplying a DVD player that can handle commercially produced
    >> DVD movies, I would presume that it is a closed source/proprietary
    >> product added on the the Ubuntu distro.
    >>
    >> I have no objection to making Linux easy-to-use. What offends the
    >> Linux/FOSS community is the idea that users *must not* have access to
    >> the inner workings of their OS.
    >>
    >> Linux is like a car: some people just want it to get them from point A
    >> to point B, without worrying about the details. Other people like to
    >> tweak the timing, modify the cam shaft, enlarge the intake manifold,
    >> etc, etc. FOSS lets you tinker if you like. Closed software means that
    >> you are not allowed to open the hood.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > That's true. But at the same time we are free to add any software that
    > we want. Look at the ones that want to play closed source games through
    > Wine. Its their choice.
    > Or should all of us bow to the FOSS Nazis and ony use what they tell us
    > we can.
    > After all I don't know if I am smart enough to think for myself.
    > caver1


    The FOSS evangelists would probably recommend that you use a FOSS product
    in preference to a closed one whenever possible, but the bottom line is
    that it is all about freedom. If you want to set up your Linux box as a
    virtual machine to run Vista, you'll get a lot of puzzled looks, and some
    would (legitimately) question your sanity, but nobody around here would
    say that you can't do that. Ironically, the only one who would tell you
    that you were wrong in that situation would be Microsoft; they do not
    allow installation of Vista on a virtual machine.

    --
    MarkA
    (This space accidentally filled in)


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