Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax - Ubuntu

This is a discussion on Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax - Ubuntu ; Trevor Best illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing: > On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:20:10 +0100 > Moog wrote: > >> "Trevor Best" illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing: >> >> > On 12 Sep 2007 21:40:18 GMT >> > Moog wrote: >> > ...

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Thread: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

  1. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    Trevor Best illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    > On Thu, 13 Sep 2007 12:20:10 +0100
    > Moog wrote:
    >
    >> "Trevor Best" illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>
    >> > On 12 Sep 2007 21:40:18 GMT
    >> > Moog wrote:
    >> >
    >> > > Rick Blackthorn illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >> > > > I'll see what HP says. Alienware says no.
    >> > > >
    >> > > > Remember I'm talking about new laptops that don't come bundled
    >> > > > with windows.
    >> > > >
    >> > > > Rick
    >> > >
    >> > > I understood the question, I kust think you're limiting yourself.
    >> >
    >> > It's annoying anyway even if you don't run Linux. At work we have our
    >> > own XP (and Vista bleugh) licenses and in most cases re-install our
    >> > own wiping out the pre-installed one. So in effect, we pay for
    >> > Windows twice on a laptop.

    >>
    >> Hmmmm. Which companies do you buy your kit from? They'd be the first
    >> port of call. I would anticipated that they'd just give you the licence
    >> anyway as this will keep their MS quota up.

    >
    > I usually try to stick to HP for laptops although they've been bought
    > via pissy world (pcwb) or dabs, a couple of idiots in our company had a
    > free reign (i.e. bypassed me as system administrator) and bought an
    > Acer POS (now *when* (not if) they have problems do I ever give them
    > stick hehe).


    Aaah. So you're buying from a re-seller, rather than directly from a
    manufacturer. In which case, your hands are tied. If you want to
    change it, you will need to speak to the manufacturer directly.

    --
    Moog

    "Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the
    leather straps."

  2. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    On Wed, 12 Sep 2007 21:40:18 +0000, Moog wrote:

    > Rick Blackthorn illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >> I'll see what HP says. Alienware says no.
    >>
    >> Remember I'm talking about new laptops that don't come bundled with
    >> windows.
    >>
    >> Rick

    >
    > I understood the question, I kust think you're limiting yourself.
    >
    > If you check out soem of the UK sites like www.linuxemporium.net
    > They supply Ubuntu on Lenovo Thinkpads, but you can get a windows
    > version cheaper. No real gain there then.


    There is a major gain in buying a Linux pre-installed PC instead of
    windows, even if it is more expensive.

    The vendor makes a Linux sale. The vendor sees that Linux is profitable.
    The vendor may decide to make more Linux offerings as a result.

    Now compare that if you buy the cheaper windows one.

    The vendor does not make a Linux sale. The vendor does not see that Linux
    profitable. The vendor may decide to scrap Linux offerings because it
    isn't worth it.

    --
    Stephan
    2003 Yamaha R6

    君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
    君のこと忘れたときがないから

  3. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:

    >> <....>
    >> I understand all that, but I still wouldn't do it. Personally, I'd buy
    >> the Windows one and install linux over it.

    >
    > Then all I have to say is, not to you directly, but just as a generalized
    > statement: If people won't buy Linux solutions, then they better not
    > complain that they don't exist...that goes for hardware, software and
    > drivers.


    Buying a computer with or without pre-installed linux is a different
    issue to hardware that won't work with linux. If I find hardware that
    struggles, I notify the manufacturer. I've had quite positive
    responses from most, and been ignored by others.

    --
    Moog

    "Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the
    leather straps."

  4. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:23:30 +0000, Moog wrote:

    > Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >
    >>> <....>
    >>> I understand all that, but I still wouldn't do it. Personally, I'd buy
    >>> the Windows one and install linux over it.

    >>
    >> Then all I have to say is, not to you directly, but just as a
    >> generalized statement: If people won't buy Linux solutions, then they
    >> better not complain that they don't exist...that goes for hardware,
    >> software and drivers.

    >
    > Buying a computer with or without pre-installed linux is a different
    > issue to hardware that won't work with linux. If I find hardware that
    > struggles, I notify the manufacturer. I've had quite positive responses
    > from most, and been ignored by others.


    Nope, it's not a different issue.

    Dell uses hardware to build their systems. Dell has far more leverage
    with Manufacturers you do.

    If you go to Broadcom and tell them "I'd like to buy one of your cards
    but you don't support linux...will you write a driver?" What response are
    you likely to get?

    Now if Dell goes to Broadcom and says "We'd like to order 10,000
    additional wireless cards, but they need to support Linux." How fast do
    you think Broadcom is going to write a driver? They'll send someone back
    in time to write a driver in the past if they have to.

    When companies such as Dell, HP, etc. have a need for linux hardware and
    drivers, it's for everyone's benefit as these companies have far more
    leverage than we as users will ever have.

    --
    Stephan
    2003 Yamaha R6

    君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
    君のこと忘れたときがないから

  5. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 04:46:35 -0500, Stephan Rose wrote:

    > On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:23:30 +0000, Moog wrote:
    >
    >> Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>
    >>>> <....>
    >>>> I understand all that, but I still wouldn't do it. Personally, I'd buy
    >>>> the Windows one and install linux over it.
    >>>
    >>> Then all I have to say is, not to you directly, but just as a
    >>> generalized statement: If people won't buy Linux solutions, then they
    >>> better not complain that they don't exist...that goes for hardware,
    >>> software and drivers.

    >>
    >> Buying a computer with or without pre-installed linux is a different
    >> issue to hardware that won't work with linux. If I find hardware that
    >> struggles, I notify the manufacturer. I've had quite positive responses
    >> from most, and been ignored by others.

    >
    > Nope, it's not a different issue.
    >
    > Dell uses hardware to build their systems. Dell has far more leverage
    > with Manufacturers you do.
    >
    > If you go to Broadcom and tell them "I'd like to buy one of your cards
    > but you don't support linux...will you write a driver?" What response are
    > you likely to get?
    >
    > Now if Dell goes to Broadcom and says "We'd like to order 10,000
    > additional wireless cards, but they need to support Linux." How fast do
    > you think Broadcom is going to write a driver? They'll send someone back
    > in time to write a driver in the past if they have to.
    >
    > When companies such as Dell, HP, etc. have a need for linux hardware and
    > drivers, it's for everyone's benefit as these companies have far more
    > leverage than we as users will ever have.
    >


    I agree whole heartedly, and I would like it to be taken further. I
    believe it is our duty as Linux and open source users to buy kit with the
    OS pre-installed on, even if it's a distro we do not like. Makers are
    never ever going to know the popularity of Linux until the see cold hard
    sales. I understand peoples reluctance to pay more for Ubuntu for
    example, but the message needs to get out there.

    Having Dell have a Ubuntu page is quite a different proposition to having
    you select a PC then chose the OS.. Having the Ubuntu add nothing in terms
    of cost and Windows add their licence fees. When we see this happen, it's
    all over bar the shouting. Sadly I believe Microsoft revenue stream could
    take the hit of giving the OS away, levelling the playing field. Consumers
    win either way.

    If you want to see this happen, you must fess up the cash now and show the
    OEM's there is a demand, or pay for it later when hardware and OS become
    so tightly integrated that you cannot install anything by Window Galaxy
    Future Edition!

    I don't particularly like Dell, but I am buying a Dell laptop for this
    very reason.

    --
    MCR
    MAME - History In The Making
    Got Linux? Get SDLMAME

  6. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    > On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:23:30 +0000, Moog wrote:
    >
    >> Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>
    >>>> <....>
    >>>> I understand all that, but I still wouldn't do it. Personally, I'd buy
    >>>> the Windows one and install linux over it.
    >>>
    >>> Then all I have to say is, not to you directly, but just as a
    >>> generalized statement: If people won't buy Linux solutions, then they
    >>> better not complain that they don't exist...that goes for hardware,
    >>> software and drivers.

    >>
    >> Buying a computer with or without pre-installed linux is a different
    >> issue to hardware that won't work with linux. If I find hardware that
    >> struggles, I notify the manufacturer. I've had quite positive responses
    >> from most, and been ignored by others.

    >
    > Nope, it's not a different issue.
    >
    > Dell uses hardware to build their systems. Dell has far more leverage
    > with Manufacturers you do.
    >
    > If you go to Broadcom and tell them "I'd like to buy one of your cards
    > but you don't support linux...will you write a driver?" What response are
    > you likely to get?
    >
    > Now if Dell goes to Broadcom and says "We'd like to order 10,000
    > additional wireless cards, but they need to support Linux." How fast do
    > you think Broadcom is going to write a driver? They'll send someone back
    > in time to write a driver in the past if they have to.
    >
    > When companies such as Dell, HP, etc. have a need for linux hardware and
    > drivers, it's for everyone's benefit as these companies have far more
    > leverage than we as users will ever have.


    That's an exceptionally good point Stephan. I have no argument against it.

    What I will say in my defence is that I do contact manufacturers and
    there *has* been some success simply because Linux users *ask*. But
    you are right, this is nothing like the power wielded by the system
    builder (especially the likes of Dell).

    --
    Moog

    "Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the
    leather straps."

  7. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 18:29:35 +0000, Moog wrote:

    > Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >> On Sat, 15 Sep 2007 06:23:30 +0000, Moog wrote:
    >>
    >>> Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:
    >>>
    >>>>> <....>
    >>>>> I understand all that, but I still wouldn't do it. Personally, I'd
    >>>>> buy the Windows one and install linux over it.
    >>>>
    >>>> Then all I have to say is, not to you directly, but just as a
    >>>> generalized statement: If people won't buy Linux solutions, then they
    >>>> better not complain that they don't exist...that goes for hardware,
    >>>> software and drivers.
    >>>
    >>> Buying a computer with or without pre-installed linux is a different
    >>> issue to hardware that won't work with linux. If I find hardware that
    >>> struggles, I notify the manufacturer. I've had quite positive
    >>> responses from most, and been ignored by others.

    >>
    >> Nope, it's not a different issue.
    >>
    >> Dell uses hardware to build their systems. Dell has far more leverage
    >> with Manufacturers you do.
    >>
    >> If you go to Broadcom and tell them "I'd like to buy one of your cards
    >> but you don't support linux...will you write a driver?" What response
    >> are you likely to get?
    >>
    >> Now if Dell goes to Broadcom and says "We'd like to order 10,000
    >> additional wireless cards, but they need to support Linux." How fast do
    >> you think Broadcom is going to write a driver? They'll send someone
    >> back in time to write a driver in the past if they have to.
    >>
    >> When companies such as Dell, HP, etc. have a need for linux hardware
    >> and drivers, it's for everyone's benefit as these companies have far
    >> more leverage than we as users will ever have.

    >
    > That's an exceptionally good point Stephan. I have no argument against
    > it.
    >
    > What I will say in my defence is that I do contact manufacturers and
    > there *has* been some success simply because Linux users *ask*. But you
    > are right, this is nothing like the power wielded by the system builder
    > (especially the likes of Dell).


    No need for a defense. =)

    I agree with you that contacting Manufacturers can be helpful and quite
    obviously has yielded success.

    But ultimately though, nothing speaks are loudly or is as powerful as
    cold hard cash. =)

    --
    Stephan
    2003 Yamaha R6

    君のこと思い出す日なんてないのは
    君のこと忘れたときがないから

  8. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    Stephan Rose illuminated alt.os.linux.ubuntu by typing:

    > <....>
    >>> When companies such as Dell, HP, etc. have a need for linux hardware
    >>> and drivers, it's for everyone's benefit as these companies have far
    >>> more leverage than we as users will ever have.

    >>
    >> That's an exceptionally good point Stephan. I have no argument against
    >> it.
    >>
    >> What I will say in my defence is that I do contact manufacturers and
    >> there *has* been some success simply because Linux users *ask*. But you
    >> are right, this is nothing like the power wielded by the system builder
    >> (especially the likes of Dell).

    >
    > No need for a defense. =)


    I thought there was. ;-)
    I was simply stating why I felt what I felt.

    > I agree with you that contacting Manufacturers can be helpful and quite
    > obviously has yielded success.
    >
    > But ultimately though, nothing speaks are loudly or is as powerful as
    > cold hard cash. =)


    I could do with a bit of that myself. ;-)

    --
    Moog

    "Some mornings it just doesn't seem worth it to gnaw through the
    leather straps."

  9. Re: Req info on ubuntu friendly new laptops without microsoft tax

    Rick Blackthorn wrote in
    news:tsige31cdrjdapb96qqbnc6b1phrj9lg4o@4ax.com:

    > Assuming that I really don't want to buy a Dell, are there any
    > *new* laptops that one can get without a windows system (and
    > paying for the windows system)? One that ubuntu/linux is or can
    > be installed on?
    >
    > I talked to Toshiba, and they said no.

    The so-called MS tax actually is only about $30-35 for XP Pro (I suspect
    that is the maximum tax, somewhere I heard it costs the manufacturers about
    $20-25 for each machine), probably more for Vista (POS).

    In any event, I don't think you are going to save all that much. Frankly,
    unless you are really down on MS, I'd buy it with Windows then either make
    a dual boot or wipe out Windows entirely and put Linux on it, pick your
    distro.

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