Time learning openSUSE - Suse

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  1. Time learning openSUSE


    The company I work for are going to have their first Linux machine. I
    will be the person who will be doing the basic installation and training
    of the IT department.

    These people are not completely ignorant, but do have mainly WIndows
    knowledge. They are very eager to learn and have a new chalange. They
    have fought hard to be able to do this against company policy.

    The machine will be basicaly a LAMP server. Initially it will
    be used as an intranet web server. I can see it grow to become the basic
    server for the database and later the file server as well.

    I can even see this as a first step into growing much more in the
    direction of many clients using Linux as well. (Wishfull thinking. Going
    Worldwide would be some 150.000+ Linux machines if all would go there)

    So my question is: what are the things I should pay attention to? I have
    been using Linux for so long that for me it is very obvious. As it is a
    server, all will be done in CLI and phpMySQL.

    Things I am now thinking about:
    1) Have somebody of IT sitting next to me to follow the installation
    a) Network
    b) samba (Never tried it, will see if it is as easy as everybody
    says)
    c) ...
    2) Select a standard installation (KDE or GNOME, they can choose) and
    add the LAMP software and phpMyAdmin
    (Or would it be better to deselct from the beginning. Mmm. Will
    think about that)
    3) Explain YaST and zypper
    4) Configure auto updates
    5) ...

    It will be most likely in a virual machine on Windows. What are the
    major disadvantages I can explain to make it their own machine (please
    valid points, not: M$ sucks)?

    Are there things that are very obvious for Linux users that are not
    existing under Windows or the other way around? I am aware of some
    pitfalls, like Domain Server has not much to do with DNS.

    houghi
    --
    But I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am
    free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
    tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free
    because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

  2. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    houghi wrote:
    > The company I work for are going to have their first Linux machine. I
    > will be the person who will be doing the basic installation and training
    > of the IT department.
    >
    > These people are not completely ignorant, but do have mainly WIndows
    > knowledge. They are very eager to learn and have a new chalange. They
    > have fought hard to be able to do this against company policy.
    >
    > The machine will be basicaly a LAMP server. Initially it will
    > be used as an intranet web server. I can see it grow to become the basic
    > server for the database and later the file server as well.
    >
    > I can even see this as a first step into growing much more in the
    > direction of many clients using Linux as well. (Wishfull thinking. Going
    > Worldwide would be some 150.000+ Linux machines if all would go there)
    >
    > So my question is: what are the things I should pay attention to? I have
    > been using Linux for so long that for me it is very obvious. As it is a
    > server, all will be done in CLI and phpMySQL.
    >
    > Things I am now thinking about:
    > 1) Have somebody of IT sitting next to me to follow the installation
    > a) Network
    > b) samba (Never tried it, will see if it is as easy as everybody
    > says)
    > c) ...
    > 2) Select a standard installation (KDE or GNOME, they can choose) and
    > add the LAMP software and phpMyAdmin
    > (Or would it be better to deselct from the beginning. Mmm. Will
    > think about that)
    > 3) Explain YaST and zypper
    > 4) Configure auto updates
    > 5) ...
    >
    > It will be most likely in a virual machine on Windows. What are the
    > major disadvantages I can explain to make it their own machine (please
    > valid points, not: M$ sucks)?
    >
    > Are there things that are very obvious for Linux users that are not
    > existing under Windows or the other way around? I am aware of some
    > pitfalls, like Domain Server has not much to do with DNS.
    >
    > houghi


    challenge not chalange.

  3. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    On 2008-10-27, Pete Ricksecker wrote:

    >
    > challenge not chalange.


    And you had to quote 50 lines of text just to pick on one word?

    Consider yourself plonked.

    --
    http://waxborg.servepics.com
    "There will come a time when every evil
    That we know will be an evil...
    That we can rise above" - Frank Zappa

  4. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    On Mon, 27 Oct 2008 11:40:41 +0100, houghi typed this message:

    > So my question is: what are the things I should pay attention to? I have
    > been using Linux for so long that for me it is very obvious. As it is a
    > server, all will be done in CLI and phpMySQL.
    >
    > Things I am now thinking about:
    > 1) Have somebody of IT sitting next to me to follow the installation
    > a) Network
    > b) samba (Never tried it, will see if it is as easy as everybody
    > says)
    > c) ...
    > 2) Select a standard installation (KDE or GNOME, they can choose) and
    > add the LAMP software and phpMyAdmin
    > (Or would it be better to deselct from the beginning. Mmm. Will
    > think about that)
    > 3) Explain YaST and zypper
    > 4) Configure auto updates
    > 5) ...
    >
    > It will be most likely in a virual machine on Windows. What are the
    > major disadvantages I can explain to make it their own machine (please
    > valid points, not: M$ sucks)?
    >
    > Are there things that are very obvious for Linux users that are not
    > existing under Windows or the other way around? I am aware of some
    > pitfalls, like Domain Server has not much to do with DNS.
    >
    > houghi


    Congratulations (on having a job, and for leading the installation
    project)

    IMHO, first things first:
    1. Make a plan and document everything, especially configurations,
    scripts, crontabs and results.
    BTW, I made the mistake of documenting my plans in Evolution Task Manager
    and I lost because I don't use Evolution for anything else, I neglected
    to backup the Evolution task database. Paper is still works.

    2. Plan for partitions and LVM to optimize for upgrades, plan placement
    locations for Apache and MySQL data files to optimize backup and sizing.
    For instance, MySQL databases can be installed to /MySQL on sdb1 or VG2,
    etc.

    3. Install Linux on the virtual server (ugh), making sure it works as
    expected and can be recovered in case of a Windows system failure.

    4. Install and update the Apache, MySql and PHP products

    5. Setup security on the server including automatic updates and backups

    6. Setup and start PHP, add the users etc.

    7. Setup and start Apache, etc.

    8. Setup and start MySQL, etc.

    9. Schedule frequent backup strategy for Apache and MySQL.

    10. Add links to all internal reference manuals and help tutorials.

    I prefer to use crontab to schedule my backups and automatic updates.
    You'll have to discuss with them how to handle kernel updates which
    usually require a system reboot. Also, my crontabs generally run scripts
    located in ~/programs instead of running commands, which makes adjusting
    cron scripts easier. Hmmm, you might consider separating scripts ~/
    programs/crons, ~/programs/PHP, ~/programs/Apache, ~/programs/MySQL, ~/
    programs/.

    Not sure why you'd need a Samba Server for a machine thats basically for
    webserving.


  5. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    houghi wrote:

    > I am not exactly looking for reasons. I am more looking for what I
    > should think about when talking to Windows admins (not Windows users)


    just my opinion, keep it as simple as possible (remember, their universe is
    limited):

    ONE: just like us, they have 'turf' to defend...tread lightly and do your best
    to be 'diplomatic'...that is, the first thing out of your mouth shouldn't be
    something like "Ok, now you get to see a REAL Operating System be installed."

    now, i know you wouldn't do that...but, some form of that might at any second
    creep into your presentation....just be cautious...AND, eventually (when they
    have seen the light) those words will come from *their* mouth..

    TWO: demonstrate a routine install and try to keep from getting too mired down
    in trying to 'teach' them everything all at once....that is, don't explain all
    the WHY as you go...just show/tell them HOW and LET THEM ASK QUESTIONS, then
    tell them the most simple possible answer required to keep moving..

    THREE: do NOT let them decide (as you mentioned in your first post) if it will
    be gnome or kde...because that will lead to a long discussion of details they
    are not yet equipped to understand...YOU decide: it MUST be one you are very
    familiar with, because you don't need to be fumbling around TRYING TO FIND this
    or that..

    but, do NOT choose to load a 64 bit KDE 4.0 on 11.0 unless you want to spend the
    first couple of days looking like (to them) a monkey boinking a football while
    going through (to them) unbelievable hoops of dependencies, workarounds,
    wrappers, etc etc etc..

    FOUR: i'd suggest to first just introduce EITHER a desktop machine OR a server
    machine...that is, i'd not install KDE and then immediately start building a
    LAMP machine....sure, we know all of that (and more) is possible....but, i'd
    suggest it best to BEGIN by letting them continue to think in the only terms
    they know: users use a desktop and admins manage servers

    FIVE: for Gawd's Sake man, do not let them force you into running SUSE in a
    Windows[tm] hosted VM....or, did i miss something..

    ymmv, otherwise disregard all

    --
    see caveat: http://tinyurl.com/6aagco
    i am not a computer expert BUT, i've done a LOT of instruction in my time

    DenverD (Linux Counter 282315) via Thunderbird 2.0.0.14, KDE 3.5.7, SUSE Linux
    10.3, 2.6.22.18-0.2-default #1 SMP i686 athlon

  6. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    DenverD wrote:
    > just my opinion, keep it as simple as possible (remember, their universe is
    > limited):


    Yeah, they are IT. :-D

    > ONE: just like us, they have 'turf' to defend...tread lightly and do your best
    > to be 'diplomatic'...that is, the first thing out of your mouth shouldn't be
    > something like "Ok, now you get to see a REAL Operating System be installed."


    LOL. Good advice.

    > now, i know you wouldn't do that...but, some form of that might at any second
    > creep into your presentation....just be cautious...AND, eventually (when they
    > have seen the light) those words will come from *their* mouth..


    I understand that this is almost the same form as saying "With Linux I
    can do it much easier" and good point to stay away from that. Better is
    to say "On Linux I do it this way"

    > TWO: demonstrate a routine install and try to keep from getting too mired down
    > in trying to 'teach' them everything all at once....that is, don't explain all
    > the WHY as you go...just show/tell them HOW and LET THEM ASK QUESTIONS, then
    > tell them the most simple possible answer required to keep moving..


    Very good point.

    > THREE: do NOT let them decide (as you mentioned in your first post) if it will
    > be gnome or kde...because that will lead to a long discussion of details they
    > are not yet equipped to understand...YOU decide: it MUST be one you are very
    > familiar with, because you don't need to be fumbling around TRYING TO FIND this
    > or that..


    OK, CLI it is as this will be going to be a server only. Basic
    installation with LAMP on top of it. Extra software will be basicaly
    YaST and mc. The latter because I do like it to go around instead of
    using cd all the time. Also FTP and sshd and that is about it for now.
    Things that might be needed later will be added later.

    > but, do NOT choose to load a 64 bit KDE 4.0 on 11.0 unless you want to spend the
    > first couple of days looking like (to them) a monkey boinking a football while
    > going through (to them) unbelievable hoops of dependencies, workarounds,
    > wrappers, etc etc etc..


    Hey I happen to LOVE KDE and all the twirling and turning that is going
    on. It is like Fox news, but more action.. My first intention
    was to ask if they had already worked with Linux and then wether they
    used GNOME or KDE and then use that. If not, I would have gone with KDE3
    as that looks the most like Windows, I think. (Remove the hige menu and
    turn it into a normal menu)

    > FOUR: i'd suggest to first just introduce EITHER a desktop machine OR a server
    > machine...that is, i'd not install KDE and then immediately start building a
    > LAMP machine....sure, we know all of that (and more) is possible....but, i'd
    > suggest it best to BEGIN by letting them continue to think in the only terms
    > they know: users use a desktop and admins manage servers


    CLI LAMP it will be.

    > FIVE: for Gawd's Sake man, do not let them force you into running SUSE in a
    > Windows[tm] hosted VM....or, did i miss something..


    Unfortunatly that will be the case. OTOH if there are too many problems
    with the hosting OS, it will be easier to tell them to have a dedicated
    OS. Also if things will be added, the need of a dedicated server will
    become apparent.

    > ymmv, otherwise disregard all


    Thanks. All good advice and mostly things I knew. However it is good to
    be reminded of them and think "oh yeah, that is good to do" instead of
    saying afterwards "Darn, I should have done it that way"

    houghi
    --
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done,
    and why. Then do it.
    -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love

  7. Re: Time learning openSUSE


    >> now, i know you wouldn't do that...but, some form of that might at any second
    >> creep into your presentation....just be cautious...AND, eventually (when they
    >> have seen the light) those words will come from *their* mouth..

    >
    > I understand that this is almost the same form as saying "With Linux I
    > can do it much easier" and good point to stay away from that. Better is
    > to say "On Linux I do it this way"



    "On Linux I do it this way" is PERFECT...but caution: if they ask WHY? try not
    to go too deep at first (watch their eyes as you answer, stop BEFORE they glaze
    over)..

    and, sometimes the answer to WHY? _might_ be: "personal opinion, for example i
    could also do this this other way....with Linux we have choice...we don't have
    to get the Redmond Nose Ring to . . .:

    WAIT, that is not what i meant to say....

    see how easy to put them off!!! ;-)




    > OK, CLI it is as this will be going to be a server only. Basic
    > installation with LAMP on top of it. Extra software will be basicaly
    > YaST and mc.


    i love mc also...and, if the folks watching recognize it you know your job just
    got easier!!


    > My first intention
    > was to ask if they had already worked with Linux and then wether they
    > used GNOME or KDE and then use that.



    and, that would be ok also...and, of course there is nothing really wrong with
    using a comfy GUI to set up a _server_..

    (i mean, if Redmond can do it so can we!)


    > If not, I would have gone with KDE3
    > as that looks the most like Windows, I think.



    LOL, me neither...but, KDE3 would be a great choice IMHO..
    you could even use the Redmond Theme and make feel right at home..


    >> FIVE: for Gawd's Sake man, do not let them force you into running SUSE in a
    >> Windows[tm] hosted VM....or, did i miss something..

    >
    > Unfortunatly that will be the case. OTOH if there are too many problems
    > with the hosting OS, it will be easier to tell them to have a dedicated
    > OS. Also if things will be added, the need of a dedicated server will
    > become apparent.


    ok...do what you have to do to get the camel's nose under the tent..


    > Thanks. All good advice and mostly things I knew. However it is good to
    > be reminded of them and think "oh yeah, that is good to do" instead of
    > saying afterwards "Darn, I should have done it that way"



    welcome! and one last thing: *IF* you get the chance to actually install on that
    machine (or a similar) before you have an audience, then do so--i mean, it would
    be pretty awful if you found out yours was the only machine on the planet that
    was made with the just right bits that simply would NOT allow an install..

    if you ARE successful and smooth that is great, just reverse to start over with
    the watchers...

    but, if you have any problems you can spend all the time needed without watching
    eyes pressure to fix patch prod coax shout cuss kick bang smash etc....then,
    when they watch (with your pre-planned fix/work around) you can be cool,
    confident, SUCCESSFUL and VERY smart looking!!

    who knows, the entire open software movement may rest on your shoulders..don't
    let us down! ;-)

    --
    see caveat: http://tinyurl.com/6aagco
    DenverD (Linux Counter 282315) via Thunderbird 2.0.0.14, KDE 3.5.7, SUSE Linux
    10.3, 2.6.22.18-0.2-default #1 SMP i686 athlon

  8. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    houghi wrote:
    >
    > So my question is: what are the things I should pay attention to? I have
    > been using Linux for so long that for me it is very obvious. As it is a
    > server, all will be done in CLI and phpMySQL.
    >
    > houghi


    ACLs in Windows IT arena is a point-and-click
    thing for administrators. With your group you
    need to give an 'in-depth' expanation of the
    Linux flags. Explain that this is what makes
    Linux more secure and will eventually make
    life much easier for them as the whole place
    transitions (yes, wishfool thinking...) from
    MSWin. Users will find that when they copy
    things from other users on their LAN that
    some things aren't writable or executable
    as they would be in Windows. It's a good
    thing, despite not being "what they're
    used to".

    Scripts! IT people love scripts. Touch
    on how much more capable Linux bash
    scripts are than .BAT files

    Clock - are you setting up for GMT all
    over? Windows file time is 'here'- not
    'everywhere'-oriented. Makes a difference
    and may screw with your backup methods.

    KDE is closer to what a Windows user is
    expecting from a GUI. GNOME may be better
    for the IT crowd, though. Better acces to
    all the utility stuff.

    Get a list of links to reference material
    handy - publish it, too. Don't make them
    experiment without success. This leads to
    frustration, and then you lose the
    ideological support which has been there
    so far.

    Alastair Black

  9. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    Alastair Black wrote:
    > Users will find that when they copy things from other users on their
    > LAN that some things aren't writable or executable as they would be in
    > Windows. It's a good thing, despite not being "what they're used to".


    No users, just admin people on that system.

    > Scripts! IT people love scripts. Touch on how much more capable Linux
    > bash scripts are than .BAT files


    I just thought of that. I will most likely get root access to that
    system and thus will be able to do a lot of scripting that I do now at
    home over ssh. :-D

    > Clock - are you setting up for GMT all over? Windows file time is
    > 'here'- not 'everywhere'-oriented. Makes a difference and may screw
    > with your backup methods.


    As the system is a server, I will set it up as 'here' most likely.
    Depends on how the VM sees things.

    > KDE is closer to what a Windows user is expecting from a GUI. GNOME
    > may be better for the IT crowd, though. Better acces to all the
    > utility stuff.


    When I look, I see no serious difference between KDE and GNOME. Both
    menus are almost identical.

    > Get a list of links to reference material handy - publish it, too.
    > Don't make them experiment without success. This leads to frustration,
    > and then you lose the ideological support which has been there so far.


    Valid point as well, thanks.

    houghi
    --
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done,
    and why. Then do it.
    -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love

  10. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    houghi wrote:

    ------------------------------------------snip-----------------------------------
    > When I look, I see no serious difference between KDE and GNOME. Both
    > menus are almost identical.

    Curious. I recently found myself unable to log onto the kde desktop on a
    new install. I figured it was either kdm or ksession-manager was missing.
    So I logged onto gnome. When I opened Yast I noticed it was different than
    on kde. The biggest difference was that I could not find the item at the
    top of Yast to update all (installed)packages. But if you're using cli it
    probably is a moot point.



    >> Get a list of links to reference material handy - publish it, too.
    >> Don't make them experiment without success. This leads to frustration,
    >> and then you lose the ideological support which has been there so far.

    >
    > Valid point as well, thanks.
    >
    > houghi


    P.S. Sorry for my earlier rant...and thanks for refuting me point by point
    as you did. A little kick in the ass from time to time keeps me in
    line ;-)

  11. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    Michael Soibelman wrote:
    >> When I look, I see no serious difference between KDE and GNOME. Both
    >> menus are almost identical.

    > Curious. I recently found myself unable to log onto the kde desktop on a
    > new install. I figured it was either kdm or ksession-manager was missing.
    > So I logged onto gnome. When I opened Yast I noticed it was different than
    > on kde. The biggest difference was that I could not find the item at the
    > top of Yast to update all (installed)packages. But if you're using cli it
    > probably is a moot point.


    YaST is not the same as the menu. I run CLI as well as Windowmaker and
    in Windowmaker there is a menu as well set up by openSUSE and the order
    of things looks the same as in GNOME or KDE. e.g. if I install a
    program, I can find it back in GNOME, KDE and Windowmaker in the same
    place. Probably there will be things for wich this is not the case, but
    then I seldom use the menu.

    > P.S. Sorry for my earlier rant...and thanks for refuting me point by point
    > as you did. A little kick in the ass from time to time keeps me in
    > line ;-)


    I sometimes like that as well. Well, I rather sometimes have a nice
    spanking, because I was a naughty boy, but that depends more on who
    gives the spanking. ?

    houghi
    --
    Remind me to write an article on the compulsive reading of news. The
    theme will be that most neuroses can be traced to the unhealthy habit
    of wallowing in the troubles of five billion strangers. -- Heinlein

  12. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    I have OpenSuse 10.3 installed for RDBMS/testing lab.

    Only issues I do not like, if you plan to compile some freeware, such as
    httperf etc. It is much easier on RedHat OS (CentOS).

    Several occasion I did compile programs done on RedHat and copy over the
    binary to OpenSuse box.

  13. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    MacRules wrote:
    > I have OpenSuse 10.3 installed for RDBMS/testing lab.
    >
    > Only issues I do not like, if you plan to compile some freeware, such as
    > httperf etc. It is much easier on RedHat OS (CentOS).


    If you think it is so wonderful, buy the product and don't be a
    cheapscate. Yeah it is all legal, I know. Doesn't make it any better
    moraly.

    > Several occasion I did compile programs done on RedHat and copy over the
    > binary to OpenSuse box.


    I have no clue as to what this all mean in relation to this tread. You
    did also not quote, so perhaps it has nothing to do with anything.

    I can understand that it is much easier to type `./configure && make &&
    make install` on a Redhat machine then doing the same on openSUSE. And
    much easier then clicking on
    http://software.opensuse.org/ymp/ser....0/httperf.ymp

    houghi
    --
    Filled with mingled cream and amber I will drain that glass again. Such
    hilarious visions clamber Through the chambers of my brain -- Quaintest
    thoughts -- queerest fancies Come to life and fade away; Who cares how
    time advances? I am drinking ale today. -- Edgar Allan Poe

  14. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    On Tue, 28 Oct 2008 15:43:35 +0100
    houghi wrote:

    >When I look, I see no serious difference between KDE and GNOME. Both
    >menus are almost identical.
    >


    This is probably way too late, but just to clarify for you -- since you
    say you haven't used Windows in a long time -- the big difference
    between GNOME and KDE is 'feel'. KDE 'feels' more like Windows while
    GNOME 'feels' more like Mac. Nothing really empirical to which I can
    point, just my impressions and comments I've heard from other Windows
    and Mac users when they've looked at my various boxen . . .


    --
    Kevin Nathan (Arizona, USA)
    Linux Potpourri and a.o.l.s. FAQ -- (temporarily offline)

    Open standards. Open source. Open minds.
    The command line is the front line.
    Linux 2.6.25.18-0.2-pae
    10:13pm up 6 days 2:05, 17 users, load average: 0.44, 0.37, 0.42


  15. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    Kevin Nathan wrote:
    > This is probably way too late, but just to clarify for you -- since you
    > say you haven't used Windows in a long time


    I use it as a user, not as an admin. If something is broken, I am not
    looking for a solution myself, because I am too lazy to install the
    admin password hacker tool.

    > -- the big difference
    > between GNOME and KDE is 'feel'. KDE 'feels' more like Windows while
    > GNOME 'feels' more like Mac.


    No wonder they both suck. I hate both the Mac layout and the Windows
    layout. I even think the Mac layout is less usable then anything I have
    ever seen. Yes, I have been forced to work with it.

    I even have tested software installation for a certain product under all
    three. Linux was the easiest (rpm file.rpm, it asked some standard
    questions and done), Windows was the second easiest. Doubleclick, answer
    the same questions and done. Mac was awefull. Clicking, doubleclicking,
    dragging, dropping and what not and then in 20% of the time you forgot a
    step and needed to start over.

    > Nothing really empirical to which I can
    > point, just my impressions and comments I've heard from other Windows
    > and Mac users when they've looked at my various boxen . . .


    COuld very well be. Thanks. I will be going for CLI as soon as they have
    the time. Seems they had not noticed the licence fee of 8.000EUR, so it
    probably will be a dedicated machine anyway.

    I have now asked them about 5 times if they were sure if they want a
    Linux and not a Windows with PHP, MySQL and PHP and they still want to
    go for Linux.

    houghi
    --
    It's people. Source code is made out of people! They're making our
    source out of people. Next thing they'll be breeding us like cattle
    for code. You've gotta tell them. You've gotta tell them!

  16. Re: Time learning openSUSE

    On Oct 27, 10:40*am, houghi wrote:

    > So my question is: what are the things I should pay attention to? I have
    > been using Linux for so long that for me it is very obvious. As it is a
    > server, all will be done in CLI and phpMySQL.


    You give the impression (from the rest of the posts) that the people
    you will be introducing to this already have some idea of how to use
    the command line; but if this is not the case then it will actually be
    useful to give them a comprehensive yet simple overview on how the
    file structure works and how different it is to Windows. Making simple
    things like cd, pwd, etc clear is very good for starters.

    I have only been on Linux since July this year I can confirm that my
    Linux learning curve grew exponentially as soon as I found a few
    threads explaining how to navigate around the file system and how to
    find help (the man pages again - I no longer use them that much but
    they were very handy at the start!)

    Hope that is of some use!


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