Re: Don't order from Lenovo - Suse

This is a discussion on Re: Don't order from Lenovo - Suse ; On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford" wrote: >> >> "zmdmw52" wrote in message >news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com... >> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote: >> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote: >> > ...

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Thread: Re: Don't order from Lenovo

  1. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    wrote:

    >>
    >> "zmdmw52" wrote in message

    >news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    >> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    >> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    >> >
    >> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was

    >informed
    >> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent to

    >me
    >> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    >> > >>> future.
    >> >
    >> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their

    >Thinkpad
    >> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    >> >
    >> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    >> >
    >> > >>> Brad
    >> >
    >> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    >> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    >> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    >> >
    >> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with NO
    >> > > problems at all.
    >> >
    >> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The biggest
    >> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially guilty
    >> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and should
    >> > rightly be shunned).
    >> >

    >>
    >> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    >> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)

    >
    >From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'. I'm
    >wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    >collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way of
    >Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.



    Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of that
    drive, or other available volume.

    The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.

    Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader can
    point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    boot something else even, if you wish.

  2. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:23:41 -0700, AnimalMagic wrote:

    > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>
    >>> "zmdmw52" wrote in message

    >>news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    >>> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    >>> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >>> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    >>> >
    >>> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was

    >>informed
    >>> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent to

    >>me
    >>> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    >>> > >>> future.
    >>> >
    >>> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their

    >>Thinkpad
    >>> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    >>> >
    >>> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    >>> >
    >>> > >>> Brad
    >>> >
    >>> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    >>> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    >>> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    >>> >
    >>> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with NO
    >>> > > problems at all.
    >>> >
    >>> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The biggest
    >>> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially guilty
    >>> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and should
    >>> > rightly be shunned).
    >>> >
    >>>
    >>> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    >>> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)

    >>
    >>From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'. I'm
    >>wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    >>collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way of
    >>Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.

    >
    >
    > Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    > that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    > partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of that
    > drive, or other available volume.
    >
    > The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    > configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.
    >
    > Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    > of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader can
    > point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    > boot something else even, if you wish.


    Better solution....

    Go here:

    http://wubi-installer.org/

    And download and install ubuntu into a directory on your Windows drive.
    Follow the instructions and you will have GRUB installed giving a choice of
    Linux or Windows and you will NOT have to partition or do anything.

    Believe it or not, it actually works and don't ask me because I have no
    idea why/how but I can confirm that it does NOT screw with Windows in any
    way, other than the MBR with Grub and that's easy to recover should it
    somehow get hosed.

    I am VERY IMPRESSED with the way this thing works....
    It's really quite amazing.

    My drives are all NTFS BTW and the only caveat is that i can't seem to find
    my /hda (C-drive) which is the boot/Windows drive that Ubuntu is installed
    on.
    I'm sure there is a way but I haven't discovered it yet.

    All my other drives, 3 of them, come up fine.

    Just another alternative, and thanks to RonB for cluing me into this little
    gem.


    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  3. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:29:46 -0400, "Moshe Goldfarb."
    wrote:

    >On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:23:41 -0700, AnimalMagic wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>>
    >>>> "zmdmw52" wrote in message
    >>>news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    >>>> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    >>>> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >>>> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>>> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    >>>> >
    >>>> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was
    >>>informed
    >>>> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent to
    >>>me
    >>>> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    >>>> > >>> future.
    >>>> >
    >>>> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their
    >>>Thinkpad
    >>>> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    >>>> >
    >>>> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    >>>> >
    >>>> > >>> Brad
    >>>> >
    >>>> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    >>>> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    >>>> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    >>>> >
    >>>> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with NO
    >>>> > > problems at all.
    >>>> >
    >>>> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The biggest
    >>>> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially guilty
    >>>> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and should
    >>>> > rightly be shunned).
    >>>> >
    >>>>
    >>>> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    >>>> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)
    >>>
    >>>From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'. I'm
    >>>wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    >>>collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way of
    >>>Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.

    >>
    >>
    >> Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    >> that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    >> partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of that
    >> drive, or other available volume.
    >>
    >> The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    >> configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.
    >>
    >> Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    >> of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader can
    >> point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    >> boot something else even, if you wish.

    >
    >Better solution....
    >
    >Go here:
    >
    >http://wubi-installer.org/
    >
    >And download and install ubuntu into a directory on your Windows drive.
    >Follow the instructions and you will have GRUB installed giving a choice of
    >Linux or Windows and you will NOT have to partition or do anything.
    >
    >Believe it or not, it actually works and don't ask me because I have no
    >idea why/how but I can confirm that it does NOT screw with Windows in any
    >way, other than the MBR with Grub and that's easy to recover should it
    >somehow get hosed.
    >
    >I am VERY IMPRESSED with the way this thing works....
    >It's really quite amazing.
    >
    >My drives are all NTFS BTW and the only caveat is that i can't seem to find
    >my /hda (C-drive) which is the boot/Windows drive that Ubuntu is installed
    >on.
    >I'm sure there is a way but I haven't discovered it yet.
    >
    >All my other drives, 3 of them, come up fine.
    >
    >Just another alternative, and thanks to RonB for cluing me into this little
    >gem.



    One can do the same thing with the Knoppix Live DVD.

    It runs in an emulator within Windows desktop.

    So, one would imagine that any distro could be run in this manner,
    given the right massagings.

    I have a knoppix Live "screen saver" that runs Linux Knoppix as a
    screen saver when Windows is idle long enough.

    So every other time you are returning from being away from your
    desktop, you have a different OS up when you arrive (as long as you
    switch back to Windows after the Linux session).

  4. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 20:38:46 -0700, AnimalMagic wrote:

    > On Wed, 3 Sep 2008 22:29:46 -0400, "Moshe Goldfarb."
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:23:41 -0700, AnimalMagic wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    >>> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>>
    >>>>> "zmdmw52" wrote in message
    >>>>news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    >>>>> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    >>>>> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >>>>> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb. wrote:
    >>>>> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was
    >>>>informed
    >>>>> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent to
    >>>>me
    >>>>> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    >>>>> > >>> future.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their
    >>>>Thinkpad
    >>>>> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > >>> Brad
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    >>>>> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    >>>>> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with NO
    >>>>> > > problems at all.
    >>>>> >
    >>>>> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The biggest
    >>>>> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially guilty
    >>>>> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and should
    >>>>> > rightly be shunned).
    >>>>> >
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    >>>>> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)
    >>>>
    >>>>From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'. I'm
    >>>>wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    >>>>collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way of
    >>>>Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    >>> that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    >>> partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of that
    >>> drive, or other available volume.
    >>>
    >>> The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    >>> configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.
    >>>
    >>> Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    >>> of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader can
    >>> point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    >>> boot something else even, if you wish.

    >>
    >>Better solution....
    >>
    >>Go here:
    >>
    >>http://wubi-installer.org/
    >>
    >>And download and install ubuntu into a directory on your Windows drive.
    >>Follow the instructions and you will have GRUB installed giving a choice of
    >>Linux or Windows and you will NOT have to partition or do anything.
    >>
    >>Believe it or not, it actually works and don't ask me because I have no
    >>idea why/how but I can confirm that it does NOT screw with Windows in any
    >>way, other than the MBR with Grub and that's easy to recover should it
    >>somehow get hosed.
    >>
    >>I am VERY IMPRESSED with the way this thing works....
    >>It's really quite amazing.
    >>
    >>My drives are all NTFS BTW and the only caveat is that i can't seem to find
    >>my /hda (C-drive) which is the boot/Windows drive that Ubuntu is installed
    >>on.
    >>I'm sure there is a way but I haven't discovered it yet.
    >>
    >>All my other drives, 3 of them, come up fine.
    >>
    >>Just another alternative, and thanks to RonB for cluing me into this little
    >>gem.

    >
    >
    > One can do the same thing with the Knoppix Live DVD.
    >
    > It runs in an emulator within Windows desktop.
    >
    > So, one would imagine that any distro could be run in this manner,
    > given the right massagings.
    >
    > I have a knoppix Live "screen saver" that runs Linux Knoppix as a
    > screen saver when Windows is idle long enough.
    >
    > So every other time you are returning from being away from your
    > desktop, you have a different OS up when you arrive (as long as you
    > switch back to Windows after the Linux session).


    I'm not sure how Ubuntu is doing it.
    I don't think they are running an emulator, but more of a virtual file
    system.
    At least that is how is seems to me.

    At any rate, it is just as fast as a native install IMHO.

    --
    Moshe Goldfarb
    Collector of soaps from around the globe.
    Please visit The Hall of Linux Idiots:
    http://linuxidiots.blogspot.com/

  5. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Mon, 01 Sep 2008 00:47:18 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:

    > In alt.os.linux.suse Hadron wrote:
    >>Rex Ballard writes:

    >
    >>> On Aug 31, 3:07Â*pm, zmdmw52 wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers
    >>>> or do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)
    >>>
    >>> Yes, they work very well. Most Linux distributions will detect that
    >>> one automatically and the configuration software will let you start
    >>> finding hot spots immediately. If you want a secure connection, (WEP,
    >>> WPA), you will need to configure that connection/SSID combination, but
    >>> that's no more difficult than the Windows configuration (maybe even
    >>> easier).
    >>>
    >>>

    >>WEP is not secure. Not even slightly. Use at your own peril.

    >
    >>As for "easier". Rubbish.

    >
    > Matter of opinion. I've had (and still have) a number of dual boot
    > machines. I've always had an easier time configuring wireless under
    > linux.
    >
    > But that may be just because I use linux more often.


    The T60 has been a horror story with iwl3945. It **** packets left and
    right with the old ipw3945 drivers, and looses signal when more then 10M
    away from AP with the new iwl3945 drivers. The "solution" was an el-
    cheapo broadcom pcmcia card that easilly does 100M and even more without
    obstructions.

    Wireless is getting better and better with the new mac80211 stack on
    linux, but something about the T60's design made wifi suck.

    Joe

  6. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 14:22:28 -0700, zmdmw52 wrote:

    > On Aug 31, 8:11Â*pm, Rex Ballard wrote:
    >> On Aug 31, 3:07Â*pm, zmdmw52 wrote:
    >>
    >> > Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers
    >> > or do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)

    >>
    >> Yes, they work very well. Â*Most Linux distributions will detect that
    >> one automatically and the configuration software will let you start
    >> finding hot spots immediately. Â*If you want a secure connection, (WEP,
    >> WPA), you will need to configure that connection/SSID combination, but
    >> that's no more difficult than the Windows configuration (maybe even
    >> easier).

    >
    > Any additional utility (software program) specifically for these
    > (wireless cards)?


    Just the standard wireless-utils package included with just about every
    distro (provides commands like iwconfig). For WPA you will probably need
    wpa-supplicant in addition in order to manage the keys.

    Joe

  7. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 20:27:04 +0200, Hadron wrote:

    > alt writes:
    >
    >> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 05:07:14 -0700, zmdmw52 wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    >>> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)

    >>
    >> Those are usually very good for support. Also, Ralink is apparently
    >> getting very involved with the Linux community to support their
    >> wireless chipsets, so I would expect some good things to come out of
    >> that.

    >
    > The ralink in my thinkpad was useless since the driver did not support
    > WPA. I replaced it with an intel wireless pro.


    The new mac80211 stack driver in compat-wireless does not support?

  8. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    * Joe Kappus peremptorily fired off this memo:

    >> Matter of opinion. I've had (and still have) a number of dual boot
    >> machines. I've always had an easier time configuring wireless under
    >> linux.
    >>
    >> But that may be just because I use linux more often.

    >
    > The T60 has been a horror story with iwl3945. It **** packets left and
    > right with the old ipw3945 drivers, and looses signal when more then 10M
    > away from AP with the new iwl3945 drivers. The "solution" was an el-
    > cheapo broadcom pcmcia card that easilly does 100M and even more without
    > obstructions.
    >
    > Wireless is getting better and better with the new mac80211 stack on
    > linux, but something about the T60's design made wifi suck.


    On this DELL laptop, iwl3945 took some work for me to set up. Not sure
    why, probably just my approach to things (I went for Intel's latest, not
    the kernel's latest.)

    They've been changing over to iwlwifi, and the in-kernel stuff works
    pretty well. For the longest time, though, the WIFI light wouldn't work
    with that driver. The 2.6.26 kernel fixed that, though.

    I still have one minor "problem" -- with the Network Manager applet, I
    see a number of routers all with similar signal strength, even though
    I'm sitting next to one. But, when I connect to, the signal strength is
    shown properly.

    In general, it works well, though.

    As an aside, the Bluetooth, smart-card reader, sound, and video on this
    laptop (Latitude D820) all work very well. It makes a great Linux box.

    --
    Democracy is good. I say this because other systems are worse.
    -- Jawaharlal Nehru

  9. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    Linonut wrote:

    > As an aside, the Bluetooth, smart-card reader, sound, and video on
    > this
    > laptop (Latitude D820) all work very well. It makes a great Linux
    > box.


    What about ACPI (especially hibernation to disk/memory)?

    --
    Hendrik van Hees Institut für Theoretische Physik
    Phone: +49 641 99-33342 Justus-Liebig-Universität Gießen
    Fax: +49 641 99-33309 D-35392 Gießen
    http://theory.gsi.de/~vanhees/faq/

  10. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:58:18 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Joe Kappus peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >>> Matter of opinion. I've had (and still have) a number of dual boot
    >>> machines. I've always had an easier time configuring wireless under
    >>> linux.
    >>>
    >>> But that may be just because I use linux more often.

    >>
    >> The T60 has been a horror story with iwl3945. It **** packets left and
    >> right with the old ipw3945 drivers, and looses signal when more then
    >> 10M away from AP with the new iwl3945 drivers. The "solution" was an
    >> el- cheapo broadcom pcmcia card that easilly does 100M and even more
    >> without obstructions.
    >>
    >> Wireless is getting better and better with the new mac80211 stack on
    >> linux, but something about the T60's design made wifi suck.

    >
    > On this DELL laptop, iwl3945 took some work for me to set up. Not sure
    > why, probably just my approach to things (I went for Intel's latest, not
    > the kernel's latest.)
    >


    The latest and greatest is not in the kernel, but in a package called
    compat-wireless that's updated daily from git. It's very easy to compile
    and install on top of the in-kernel driver.

    > They've been changing over to iwlwifi, and the in-kernel stuff works
    > pretty well. For the longest time, though, the WIFI light wouldn't work
    > with that driver. The 2.6.26 kernel fixed that, though.
    >


    They intentionally disabled it :P.

    > I still have one minor "problem" -- with the Network Manager applet, I
    > see a number of routers all with similar signal strength, even though
    > I'm sitting next to one. But, when I connect to, the signal strength is
    > shown properly.
    >


    Something about the scanning isn't right, and I believe it's a known
    issue for now.

  11. Re: Don't order from Lenovo


    "AnimalMagic" wrote in message
    news:5bhub41ug3ocsuen4bauq09tm210to8296@4ax.com...
    > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    > wrote:
    >
    > >>
    > >> "zmdmw52" wrote in message

    > >news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    > >> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    > >> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    > >> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb.

    wrote:
    > >> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was

    > >informed
    > >> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent

    to
    > >me
    > >> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    > >> > >>> future.
    > >> >
    > >> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their

    > >Thinkpad
    > >> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    > >> >
    > >> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    > >> >
    > >> > >>> Brad
    > >> >
    > >> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    > >> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    > >> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    > >> >
    > >> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with NO
    > >> > > problems at all.
    > >> >
    > >> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The biggest
    > >> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially

    guilty
    > >> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and

    should
    > >> > rightly be shunned).
    > >> >
    > >>
    > >> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    > >> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)

    > >
    > >From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'.

    I'm
    > >wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    > >collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way of
    > >Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.

    >
    >
    > Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    > that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    > partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of that
    > drive, or other available volume.
    >
    > The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    > configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.
    >
    > Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    > of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader can
    > point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    > boot something else even, if you wish.


    Thanks, A.M. I'm assuming that 32MB partition should be a primary
    partition, correct? It sounds like what I did on my old Pentium-166 machine
    back in the mid '90s, when I was playing with MS-DOS 6.22, Win3.1, OS/2 Warp
    3.0, and RedHat Linux 5.2 Deluxe. I had IBM's Boot Manager in a primary
    partition below C:, and I could boot either DOS, OS/2, or Linux from that
    menu. It wasn't a GUI menu, but it was readable, and I could tweak it
    through OS/2's FDISK.

    This would be cool, and I might use it on the desktop if I want to play with
    several distros of Linux. But, I will only have room for one distro on the
    laptop, so I only need to dual boot. I think I can do that with XP, but
    without crippling Linux.

    --
    -- 73 DE Tom Rutherford, N8EUJ, Burton, MI
    "She said it was either her or the ham radio. Over."
    (Reply-To address may be anti-spammed.)



  12. Re: Don't order from Lenovo


    "Moshe Goldfarb." wrote in message
    news:slnd8ft5yd7p$.1bb4lmeihbjrl$.dlg@40tude.net.. .
    > On Wed, 03 Sep 2008 19:23:41 -0700, AnimalMagic wrote:
    >
    > > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"


    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >>>
    > >>> "zmdmw52" wrote in message

    >
    >>news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    > >>> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    > >>> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    > >>> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb.

    wrote:
    > >>> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    > >>> >
    > >>> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was
    > >>informed
    > >>> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent

    to
    > >>me
    > >>> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    > >>> > >>> future.
    > >>> >
    > >>> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their
    > >>Thinkpad
    > >>> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    > >>> >
    > >>> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    > >>> >
    > >>> > >>> Brad
    > >>> >
    > >>> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    > >>> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    > >>> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    > >>> >
    > >>> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with

    NO
    > >>> > > problems at all.
    > >>> >
    > >>> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The

    biggest
    > >>> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially

    guilty
    > >>> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and

    should
    > >>> > rightly be shunned).
    > >>> >
    > >>>
    > >>> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    > >>> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)
    > >>
    > >>From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'.

    I'm
    > >>wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    > >>collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way

    of
    > >>Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.

    > >
    > >
    > > Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    > > that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    > > partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of

    that
    > > drive, or other available volume.
    > >
    > > The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    > > configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.
    > >
    > > Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    > > of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader

    can
    > > point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    > > boot something else even, if you wish.

    >
    > Better solution....
    >
    > Go here:
    >
    > http://wubi-installer.org/
    >
    > And download and install ubuntu into a directory on your Windows drive.
    > Follow the instructions and you will have GRUB installed giving a choice

    of
    > Linux or Windows and you will NOT have to partition or do anything.
    >
    > Believe it or not, it actually works and don't ask me because I have no
    > idea why/how but I can confirm that it does NOT screw with Windows in any
    > way, other than the MBR with Grub and that's easy to recover should it
    > somehow get hosed.
    >
    > I am VERY IMPRESSED with the way this thing works....
    > It's really quite amazing.
    >
    > My drives are all NTFS BTW and the only caveat is that i can't seem to

    find
    > my /hda (C-drive) which is the boot/Windows drive that Ubuntu is installed
    > on.
    > I'm sure there is a way but I haven't discovered it yet.
    >
    > All my other drives, 3 of them, come up fine.
    >
    > Just another alternative, and thanks to RonB for cluing me into this

    little
    > gem.


    Thanks, Moshe, but I prefer my Linux on ext2/ext3 partitions, not NTFS. I
    basically want Linux and Windows separate, but I want Windows to control the
    booting. I know that can be done. I'll have to be careful, but I see what
    you propose as a crippled Linux system in a cluttered Windows system. It
    doesn't look elegant at all. Maybe it works, but by your own words, it only
    works, sort of.

    --
    -- 73 DE Tom Rutherford, N8EUJ, Burton, MI
    "She said it was either her or the ham radio. Over."
    (Reply-To address may be anti-spammed.)



  13. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.suse.]
    Tom Rutherford wrote:

    > Thanks, Moshe, but I prefer my Linux on ext2/ext3 partitions, not NTFS. I
    > basically want Linux and Windows separate, but I want Windows to control the
    > booting. I know that can be done.



    What is the reason you want Windows to control the booting? I also know
    it can be done, but it is much easier to do in Linux with grub or lilo.
    Once the boot program has pointed towards the correct OS, it is
    irrelevant wether it was a Linux or a Windows program.

    I would opt for the easy solution, but perhaps you have other reasons.
    --
    houghi http://www.houghi.org
    My experience with SuSE Linux 9.1

    > The businessworld is like prison and M$ made everybody their bitch.


  14. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    * Joe Kappus peremptorily fired off this memo:

    > On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:58:18 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >>
    >> On this DELL laptop, iwl3945 took some work for me to set up. Not sure
    >> why, probably just my approach to things (I went for Intel's latest, not
    >> the kernel's latest.)

    >
    > The latest and greatest is not in the kernel, but in a package called
    > compat-wireless that's updated daily from git. It's very easy to compile
    > and install on top of the in-kernel driver.


    Exactly, that's why I said "I went for Intel's latest, not the kernel's
    latest", though I didn't go for the git, the just latest that Intel had
    packed up.

    >> I still have one minor "problem" -- with the Network Manager applet, I
    >> see a number of routers all with similar signal strength, even though
    >> I'm sitting next to one. But, when I connect to, the signal strength is
    >> shown properly.

    >
    > Something about the scanning isn't right, and I believe it's a known
    > issue for now.


    Yeah, it's a minor thing, since I broadcast the SSIDs (yeah yeah I
    know) and know the names of my two routers.

    --
    There once was this swami who lived above a delicatessan. Seems one
    day he decided to stop in downstairs for some fresh liver. Well, the owner
    of the deli was a bit of a cheap-skate, and decided to pick up a little extra
    change at his customer's expense. Turning quietly to the counterman, he
    whispered, "Weigh down upon the swami's liver!"

  15. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 11:31:48 +0000, houghi wrote:

    > ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.suse.] Tom Rutherford wrote:
    >
    >> Thanks, Moshe, but I prefer my Linux on ext2/ext3 partitions, not NTFS.
    >> I basically want Linux and Windows separate, but I want Windows to
    >> control the booting. I know that can be done.

    >
    >
    > What is the reason you want Windows to control the booting? I also know
    > it can be done, but it is much easier to do in Linux with grub or lilo.
    > Once the boot program has pointed towards the correct OS, it is
    > irrelevant wether it was a Linux or a Windows program.
    >
    > I would opt for the easy solution, but perhaps you have other reasons.


    Grub is easy enough to use, and you can hide it by setting timeout to
    zero making it idiotproof. No reason to want to use the doze loader...
    especially since grub can chainload it.

    I assume the ubuntu system uses virtualization and a loopback device
    within the windows filesystem. But that's an assumption, not gonna waste
    my time researching something I'll never use.

    Joe

  16. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Fri, 05 Sep 2008 10:33:18 -0400, Linonut wrote:

    > * Joe Kappus peremptorily fired off this memo:
    >
    >> On Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:58:18 -0400, Linonut wrote:
    >>>
    >>> On this DELL laptop, iwl3945 took some work for me to set up. Not
    >>> sure why, probably just my approach to things (I went for Intel's
    >>> latest, not the kernel's latest.)

    >>
    >> The latest and greatest is not in the kernel, but in a package called
    >> compat-wireless that's updated daily from git. It's very easy to
    >> compile and install on top of the in-kernel driver.

    >
    > Exactly, that's why I said "I went for Intel's latest, not the kernel's
    > latest", though I didn't go for the git, the just latest that Intel had
    > packed up.
    >


    I don't believe Intel packs the latest, though if you use compat-
    wireless, you use the past day's git. If that's what you use then you
    have the newest.

    >>> I still have one minor "problem" -- with the Network Manager applet, I
    >>> see a number of routers all with similar signal strength, even though
    >>> I'm sitting next to one. But, when I connect to, the signal strength
    >>> is shown properly.

    >>
    >> Something about the scanning isn't right, and I believe it's a known
    >> issue for now.

    >
    > Yeah, it's a minor thing, since I broadcast the SSIDs (yeah yeah I know)
    > and know the names of my two routers.


    Lol, I broadcast my SSID's for fun and use ssh tunnels to route all my
    traffic fully encrypted over plain unencrypted wifi. I have unencrypted
    traffic monitored to screw with people who stumble on my network, it's
    fun :P.

  17. Re: Don't order from Lenovo


    "houghi" wrote in message
    news:slrngc2654.aa3.houghi@xs3.xs4all.nl...
    > ["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.suse.]
    > Tom Rutherford wrote:
    >
    > > Thanks, Moshe, but I prefer my Linux on ext2/ext3 partitions, not NTFS.

    I
    > > basically want Linux and Windows separate, but I want Windows to control

    the
    > > booting. I know that can be done.

    >
    >
    > What is the reason you want Windows to control the booting? I also know
    > it can be done, but it is much easier to do in Linux with grub or lilo.
    > Once the boot program has pointed towards the correct OS, it is
    > irrelevant wether it was a Linux or a Windows program.


    I want a virgin MBR, so that Access IBM, Fn keys, etc., all work as well as
    is possible. If I want to change Linux distros or eliminate it altogether
    for some reason, I want it no harder than eliminating a line or two in
    boot.ini and deleting some partitions. Besides, I think Grub and LILO are
    ugly. I don't like 'em.

    > I would opt for the easy solution, but perhaps you have other reasons.


    If I do it my way, it'll be easier to clean up. I won't have any false
    positives from AV programs checking my MBR, and it just seems more elegant
    to me.

    --
    -- 73 DE Tom Rutherford, N8EUJ, Burton, MI
    "She said it was either her or the ham radio. Over."
    (Reply-To address may be anti-spammed.)



  18. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 22:44:50 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    wrote:

    >
    >"AnimalMagic" wrote in message
    >news:5bhub41ug3ocsuen4bauq09tm210to8296@4ax.com...
    >> On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 09:59:12 -0400, "Tom Rutherford"
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >>
    >> >> "zmdmw52" wrote in message
    >> >news:3b332eec-b3ce-4a82-a678-058fbb95ae43@v13g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
    >> >> On Aug 31, 1:58 pm, alt wrote:
    >> >> > On Sun, 31 Aug 2008 04:16:44 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >> >> > > In alt.os.linux.suse Moshe Goldfarb.

    >wrote:
    >> >> > >>On Sat, 30 Aug 2008 11:44:59 -0700 (PDT), brad wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> > >>> I ordered a Lenovo Linux laptop on 8/3/2008. Yesterday I was
    >> >informed
    >> >> > >>> that it will not ship till the end of September,. It is apparent

    >to
    >> >me
    >> >> > >>> that they knew on 8/3 that they could not ship in the forseeable
    >> >> > >>> future.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > >>> They are also discontinueing their support of Linux on their
    >> >Thinkpad
    >> >> > >>> T series, and lessening their offerings overall for the USA.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > >>> You can scratch Lenovo off the list of friends of Linux!
    >> >> >
    >> >> > >>> Brad
    >> >> >
    >> >> > >>Hopefully you did NOT order this model because if you did, I would
    >> >> > >>cancel my order immediately.
    >> >> > >>In fact I would cancel my order with them immediately anyhow.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > > My Lenovo T61 has been running openSUSE for over a year now with NO
    >> >> > > problems at all.
    >> >> >
    >> >> > Most modern laptops run Linux with little to no problems. The biggest
    >> >> > problem is usually the wireless adapter. Broadcom is especially

    >guilty
    >> >> > for not releasing specs or apis for their wireless chipsets (and

    >should
    >> >> > rightly be shunned).
    >> >> >
    >> >>
    >> >> Do Intel Wireless adapters (Intel 802.11 abg wireless) need drivers or
    >> >> do they work out-of-the-box? (this is for a TP R61)
    >> >
    >> >From the live CD (Ubuntu 8.04), mine worked, after a little fiddlin'.

    >I'm
    >> >wondering how it'll work once I get it installed on the hard drive. I'm
    >> >collecting data on just how to do that without GRUB getting in the way of
    >> >Winderz booting, too. Of course, mine's not an a/b/g; it's just a b/g.

    >>
    >>
    >> Re-size the front end of the Windows partition. Take away 32MB. Make
    >> that a FAT 16 partition and put XOSL boot loader there. Create Linux
    >> partitions and install one or more Linux flavors to the remainder of that
    >> drive, or other available volume.
    >>
    >> The XOSL boot loader allows GUI menu selectable booting and
    >> configuration. The partition is hidden from Windows.
    >>
    >> Then place any boot loaders during any Linux installations in the MBR
    >> of the partition you installed it to. That way, the xosl boot loader can
    >> point to it, and when the grub, etc. runs, you can change your mind and
    >> boot something else even, if you wish.

    >
    >Thanks, A.M. I'm assuming that 32MB partition should be a primary
    >partition, correct?


    Indeed.

    > It sounds like what I did on my old Pentium-166 machine
    >back in the mid '90s, when I was playing with MS-DOS 6.22, Win3.1, OS/2 Warp
    >3.0, and RedHat Linux 5.2 Deluxe.


    My list included BeOS, and I did it across several machines. I wish I
    could compile it (xosl) to load into Sony's PS3 flash drive for when it
    runs Linux.

    > I had IBM's Boot Manager in a primary
    >partition below C:, and I could boot either DOS, OS/2, or Linux from that
    >menu. It wasn't a GUI menu, but it was readable, and I could tweak it
    >through OS/2's FDISK.



    Neat.

    >
    >This would be cool, and I might use it on the desktop if I want to play with
    >several distros of Linux. But, I will only have room for one distro on the
    >laptop, so I only need to dual boot. I think I can do that with XP, but
    >without crippling Linux.


    Absolutely. It is even possible with Vista... err... Mojave. ;-] The
    MS bootloader is fine for when one only has a single alternative choice
    and doesn't need a gui.

  19. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    On 05 Sep 2008 11:31:48 GMT, houghi wrote:

    >["Followup-To:" header set to alt.os.linux.suse.]
    >Tom Rutherford wrote:
    >
    >> Thanks, Moshe, but I prefer my Linux on ext2/ext3 partitions, not NTFS. I
    >> basically want Linux and Windows separate, but I want Windows to control the
    >> booting. I know that can be done.

    >
    >
    >What is the reason you want Windows to control the booting? I also know
    >it can be done, but it is much easier to do in Linux with grub or lilo.
    >Once the boot program has pointed towards the correct OS, it is
    >irrelevant wether it was a Linux or a Windows program.
    >
    >I would opt for the easy solution, but perhaps you have other reasons.



    On a laptop, I guess it would come down to which OS needs to be
    installed first to keep from walking all over the other.

    My guess is that Linux has to go one first. I would put its bootloader
    at the beginning of the volume I put Linux on, then install Windows, and
    use the bootloader it puts in to point at the Linux partition, which in
    turn, boots the grub menu, allowing the user yet one more chance to
    decide.

    ISTR an install I did in the wrong order, but it was too long ago for
    me to remember the details. OI believe it is caused by any MS OS install
    of XP or above.

  20. Re: Don't order from Lenovo

    AnimalMagic wrote:
    >>What is the reason you want Windows to control the booting? I also know
    >>it can be done, but it is much easier to do in Linux with grub or lilo.
    >>Once the boot program has pointed towards the correct OS, it is
    >>irrelevant wether it was a Linux or a Windows program.
    >>
    >>I would opt for the easy solution, but perhaps you have other reasons.

    >
    > On a laptop, I guess it would come down to which OS needs to be
    > installed first to keep from walking all over the other.


    Sorry, not true.

    > My guess is that Linux has to go one first. I would put its bootloader
    > at the beginning of the volume I put Linux on, then install Windows, and
    > use the bootloader it puts in to point at the Linux partition, which in
    > turn, boots the grub menu, allowing the user yet one more chance to
    > decide.


    Wrong guess. You fisrt install Windows and leave a partition blank for
    Linux. Then install Linux which will recognise the windows installation
    and configure the bootloader so you are able to dualboot.

    This has been the case since at least 10 years and probably even before
    that.

    > ISTR an install I did in the wrong order, but it was too long ago for
    > me to remember the details. OI believe it is caused by any MS OS install
    > of XP or above.


    Windows will overwrite the bootloader during installation. If you
    install Windows after Linux, you will need to re-configure the
    bootloader or even re-install it.

    So if you have a machine with blank disks and you want dualboot, first
    install Windows and then Linux. The reason is that Linux is more
    flexible and will listen to where the user wants it.

    houghi
    --
    This was written under the influence of the following:
    | Artist : Santana
    | Song : First Love (Feat. Narada Michael Walden)
    | Album : Playin' With Carlos

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