What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED - Suse

This is a discussion on What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED - Suse ; Hello, I bought a Lenovo laptop with SLED 10 Service pack 1. I wonder whether it stands for OpenSuse 10.1 or not. Can some one please throw light on these naming conventions? I am trying to load Firefox 3.0 and ...

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Thread: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

  1. What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    Hello,
    I bought a Lenovo laptop with SLED 10 Service pack 1. I wonder whether
    it stands for OpenSuse 10.1 or not. Can some one please throw light on
    these naming conventions?
    I am trying to load Firefox 3.0 and the installation is asking GTK+
    libraries. What is a good source for these?
    Thanks.

  2. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    Neophyte_in_Linux wrote:
    > Hello,
    > I bought a Lenovo laptop with SLED 10 Service pack 1. I wonder whether
    > it stands for OpenSuse 10.1 or not. Can some one please throw light on
    > these naming conventions?


    Actually, the GM of SLED is most like openSUSE 10.1. SLED 10 SP1 is
    just fixes on top of the GM. The SLED line is an enterprise class
    OS, it has long term support and is QA'd.

    > I am trying to load Firefox 3.0 and the installation is asking GTK+
    > libraries. What is a good source for these?


    You can try to use the openSUSE build service if you are not able
    to find the versions you want by searching at openSUSE.

    > Thanks.


  3. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    Chris Cox wrote:

    > Neophyte_in_Linux wrote:


    >> I bought a Lenovo laptop with SLED 10 Service pack 1. I wonder
    >> whether it stands for OpenSuse 10.1 or not. Can some one please throw
    >> light on these naming conventions?

    >
    > Actually, the GM of SLED is most like openSUSE 10.1.


    It uses a 2.6.16 kernel, so this does look like 10.1.

    > SLED 10 SP1 is
    > just fixes on top of the GM. The SLED line is an enterprise class
    > OS, it has long term support and is QA'd.


    In this case (buying a used notebook) I suspect that there is no support
    at all. Unlike other desktop operation systems, the OS is free of
    charges, but support and security updates come only with a service
    contract. See Novell's web pages for details.
    So in case the OP does not want to pay for support it might be advisable
    to replace the installation with OpenSuSE or any other of the many free
    Linux distributions.

    GŁnther

  4. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    > Chris Cox wrote:
    >...
    >> SLED 10 SP1 is
    >> just fixes on top of the GM. The SLED line is an enterprise class
    >> OS, it has long term support and is QA'd.

    >
    > In this case (buying a used notebook) I suspect that there is no support
    > at all. Unlike other desktop operation systems, the OS is free of
    > charges, but support and security updates come only with a service
    > contract. See Novell's web pages for details.


    Support comes in many forms. By "support" I mean that Novell will
    provide updates/patches for many, many years.

    > So in case the OP does not want to pay for support it might be advisable
    > to replace the installation with OpenSuSE or any other of the many free
    > Linux distributions.


    I think he was asking for that very reason. openSUSE lifetime is
    about 2 years of support (updates/patches) from GM.

  5. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    houghi wrote:

    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:


    >>> SLED 10 SP1 is
    >>> just fixes on top of the GM. The SLED line is an enterprise class
    >>> OS, it has long term support and is QA'd.

    >>
    >> In this case (buying a used notebook) I suspect that there is no
    >> support at all.

    >
    > That might depend on the country you bought it. In Europe support for
    > computers (and a lot of other electronics) is two years.


    But that is hardware support. As Lenovo does not offer SLE installations
    on new notebooks I suspect the OP bought a used one which will come
    without any support for the OS. I wonder who sells a notebook with SLED
    anyway. If it was used within a company it might be interesting to have
    a close look on the harddisk ;-)

    >> Unlike other desktop operation systems, the OS is free of
    >> charges, but support and security updates come only with a service
    >> contract. See Novell's web pages for details.

    >
    > Yes and you can now download SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) SP2.
    > Very soon SUSE 11 will be out.


    AFAIR this was announced for next year. Anyway with SP2 the OS is about
    as fresh as one with kernel 2.6.16 can be. At least it runs just fine
    on systems where 10.3 still has it's issues with ACPI.

    GŁnther

  6. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    Chris Cox wrote:

    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >> Chris Cox wrote:
    >>...


    >> In this case (buying a used notebook) I suspect that there is no
    >> support at all. Unlike other desktop operation systems, the OS is
    >> free of charges, but support and security updates come only with a
    >> service contract. See Novell's web pages for details.

    >
    > Support comes in many forms. By "support" I mean that Novell will
    > provide updates/patches for many, many years.


    But not without having a working relationship with them or one of their
    partners. I'm not sure how it works with a single licence. But in my
    case access to the update server is tied to the proper IP range. Thus
    selling a computer and relocating it will cut it off from any patches
    immediately.

    >> So in case the OP does not want to pay for support it might be
    >> advisable to replace the installation with OpenSuSE or any other of
    >> the many free Linux distributions.

    >
    > I think he was asking for that very reason. openSUSE lifetime is
    > about 2 years of support (updates/patches) from GM.


    This is the price one has to pay. It might be worth having a look at
    Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and do
    have a longer life cycle.

    GŁnther

  7. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >> That might depend on the country you bought it. In Europe support for
    >> computers (and a lot of other electronics) is two years.

    >
    > But that is hardware support. As Lenovo does not offer SLE installations
    > on new notebooks I suspect the OP bought a used one which will come
    > without any support for the OS.


    I was under the impression that it was sold that way. I am never looking
    in what is sold with what.

    > I wonder who sells a notebook with SLED anyway. If it was used within
    > a company it might be interesting to have a close look on the harddisk
    > ;-)


    LOL. I can asure you that all data is mainly the same information with
    all companies. Just a bunch of numbers and names that are never that
    confidential as one might be made to believe.

    >> Yes and you can now download SLED (SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop) SP2.
    >> Very soon SUSE 11 will be out.

    >
    > AFAIR this was announced for next year. Anyway with SP2 the OS is about
    > as fresh as one with kernel 2.6.16 can be. At least it runs just fine
    > on systems where 10.3 still has it's issues with ACPI.


    SLE has a cycle of 2 years. The numbering alone indicate that 11 is
    coming. Otherwise we would now all be running openSUSE 10.4

    I still have some licence lying around, but that is for only one year,
    which makes it less interesting to use. I might still put it somewhere.
    Perhaps on my portable. I might wait for 11 to come out and see if the
    key works there.

    All in all it was nice of Novell to give it. I am now awayting my boxed
    set, which Novell is so kind to send me. So not only free as in speech,
    but also as in beer.

    I believe the reason is that I filed some bugreports. So just another
    reason to file bugreports. However they also have asked if in the future
    a different present would be OK as well. I said yes. One thing they
    proposed was a USB key with openSUSE pre-installed. How cool would that
    be. :-D

    houghi
    --
    But I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am
    free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
    tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free
    because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

  8. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    > But not without having a working relationship with them or one of their
    > partners. I'm not sure how it works with a single licence. But in my
    > case access to the update server is tied to the proper IP range. Thus
    > selling a computer and relocating it will cut it off from any patches
    > immediately.


    I was under the impression it worked with a login. And if you have that
    login, it should not be too difficult to change the IP range if that is
    something they look at.

    Buying computers from a company is often not possible as they are
    leased. Portables might be bought, but then the license will most likely
    come with the PC.
    If he bought the PC with SLE pre-installed, then he has support on that
    from the manufacturor. In any case he still can/must buy his own licence
    from Novell most likely.

    >> I think he was asking for that very reason. openSUSE lifetime is
    >> about 2 years of support (updates/patches) from GM.

    >
    > This is the price one has to pay. It might be worth having a look at
    > Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and do
    > have a longer life cycle.


    7 years? I don't think they go that long. I would say that it is a small
    price to pay per year if you think it is worth it. It would most likely
    mean that you use it as a business tool.

    That said, I think his best option is to just put 11.0 on it.

    houghi
    --
    But I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am
    free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
    tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free

  9. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:26:50 +0200, G√ľnther Schwarz wrote:

    >
    > But that is hardware support. As Lenovo does not offer SLE installations
    > on new notebooks I suspect the OP bought a used one which will come
    > without any support for the OS. I wonder who sells a notebook with SLED
    > anyway. If it was used within a company it might be interesting to have
    > a close look on the harddisk ;-)


    Lenovo sells three laptops with SLED 10 installed.

    http://shop.lenovo.com/SEUILibrary/c...oPortal/en_US/
    special-offers.workflow:find-config?category-
    id=1EEC64E5FB8342ADBD9807711D829D48&ifacet=0&filter=Operating%20System_1

  10. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    houghi wrote:

    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:


    >>> I think he was asking for that very reason. openSUSE lifetime is
    >>> about 2 years of support (updates/patches) from GM.

    >>
    >> This is the price one has to pay. It might be worth having a look at
    >> Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and
    >> do have a longer life cycle.

    >
    > 7 years?


    No, of course not. But also not for SLE 10 without further arrangements:

    With a fresh install right now generic support will end in three years
    and the extended one in five. It is not unlikely that the hardware will
    be replaced by then. So that should be just fine basically.

    GŁnther

  11. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    arnold wrote:

    > On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 08:26:50 +0200, G√ľnther Schwarz wrote:


    >> But that is hardware support. As Lenovo does not offer SLE
    >> installations on new notebooks I suspect the OP bought a used one
    >> which will come without any support for the OS.


    > Lenovo sells three laptops with SLED 10 installed.


    Thanks, I wasn't aware of that.

    G√ľnther

  12. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >>> Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and
    >>> do have a longer life cycle.

    >>
    >> 7 years?

    >
    > No, of course not.


    Why the 'of course'?

    > But also not for SLE 10 without further arrangements:
    >


    So 7 years as I said. Even fior the 5 years you need some arangement,
    like paying them.

    > With a fresh install right now generic support will end in three years
    > and the extended one in five.


    So 5 years and very soon 11 will be coming out and then it will be
    again 7 years.

    > It is not unlikely that the hardware will
    > be replaced by then. So that should be just fine basically.


    I have seen hardware changed much before and much after that. At least
    with SUSE you have the option to go 7 years.
    I still think that openSUSE would be the best way for the GP, unless he
    is willing to pay the updates or has recieved the code for the updates.

    houghi
    --
    But I will accept the rules that you feel necessary to your freedom. I am
    free, no matter what rules surround me. If I find them tolerable, I
    tolerate them; if I find them too obnoxious, I break them. I am free
    because I know that I alone am morally responsible for everything I do.

  13. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    > Chris Cox wrote:
    >
    >> GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >>> Chris Cox wrote:
    >>> ...

    >
    >>> In this case (buying a used notebook) I suspect that there is no
    >>> support at all. Unlike other desktop operation systems, the OS is
    >>> free of charges, but support and security updates come only with a
    >>> service contract. See Novell's web pages for details.

    >> Support comes in many forms. By "support" I mean that Novell will
    >> provide updates/patches for many, many years.

    >
    > But not without having a working relationship with them or one of their
    > partners. I'm not sure how it works with a single licence. But in my
    > case access to the update server is tied to the proper IP range. Thus
    > selling a computer and relocating it will cut it off from any patches
    > immediately.


    No. This is all fixable. The key is the ... well.. key that
    you register.

    >
    >>> So in case the OP does not want to pay for support it might be
    >>> advisable to replace the installation with OpenSuSE or any other of
    >>> the many free Linux distributions.

    >> I think he was asking for that very reason. openSUSE lifetime is
    >> about 2 years of support (updates/patches) from GM.

    >
    > This is the price one has to pay. It might be worth having a look at
    > Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and do
    > have a longer life cycle.


    Yes... you could go with community support. However, there isn't
    anything magical about the Debian/Ubuntu universe. People working
    on problems part time essentially... if it's not interesting to them,
    don't expect to get any fix. Possibly never (well, the fix will
    ultimately from from Red Hat or Novell which care about enterprise
    environments, just have to wait for Debian/Ubuntu to wrap their
    arms around the patches).

    Don't underestimate what you get for those hundreds of dollars
    you pay for support from Novell or Red Hat. You're getting real
    people that will try to replicate your problem and will try
    to deliver a patch. A day hardly passes where I don't get notified
    by Red Hat and Novell about a patch (and I'm not talking about
    just security fixes).


  14. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    Chris Cox wrote
    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >> Chris Cox wrote:
    >>
    >>> GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >>>> Chris Cox wrote:
    >>>> ...

    >>
    >>>> In this case (buying a used notebook) I suspect that there is no
    >>>> support at all. Unlike other desktop operation systems, the OS is
    >>>> free of charges, but support and security updates come only with a
    >>>> service contract. See Novell's web pages for details.
    >>> Support comes in many forms. By "support" I mean that Novell will
    >>> provide updates/patches for many, many years.

    >>
    >> But not without having a working relationship with them or one of
    >> their partners. I'm not sure how it works with a single licence. But
    >> in my case access to the update server is tied to the proper IP
    >> range. Thus selling a computer and relocating it will cut it off from
    >> any patches immediately.

    >
    > No. This is all fixable. The key is the ... well.. key that
    > you register.


    It all depends on the details of the contract. In my case this won't be
    fixable. I do not have to register, and I do not get anything from
    Novell. Moving the machine away from my network means cutting if off
    from updates.

    >>>> So in case the OP does not want to pay for support it might be
    >>>> advisable to replace the installation with OpenSuSE or any other of
    >>>> the many free Linux distributions.
    >>> I think he was asking for that very reason. openSUSE lifetime is
    >>> about 2 years of support (updates/patches) from GM.

    >>
    >> This is the price one has to pay. It might be worth having a look at
    >> Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and
    >> do have a longer life cycle.

    >
    > Yes... you could go with community support. However, there isn't
    > anything magical about the Debian/Ubuntu universe. People working
    > on problems part time essentially... if it's not interesting to them,
    > don't expect to get any fix. Possibly never (well, the fix will
    > ultimately from from Red Hat or Novell which care about enterprise
    > environments, just have to wait for Debian/Ubuntu to wrap their
    > arms around the patches).
    >
    > Don't underestimate what you get for those hundreds of dollars
    > you pay for support from Novell or Red Hat.


    I do appreciate that. But I'm also aware of many people who expect a
    Linux distribution to be free of charges. It's your choice, and you'll
    get what you pay for. But then quite often the community support
    (Debian or just the cosy chatting in this news group) is just as good
    as professional support. So this 'you'll get what you pay for' is not
    the whole story when it comes to Linux and it's applications.

    > You're getting real
    > people that will try to replicate your problem and will try
    > to deliver a patch. A day hardly passes where I don't get notified
    > by Red Hat and Novell about a patch (and I'm not talking about
    > just security fixes).


    If you follow how security fixes make their way through the various big
    Linux distributions you might have noticed that it is hard to predict
    the order in which they arrive. Sometimes Novell or Red Hat are first,
    but quite often Debian will react faster than the commercial teams.
    As for bugs and simply bad software: Novell does get away since years
    with questionable solutions for updates. While rug used in the
    enterprise version is better than zypper it is still using much to much
    ressources and has proven to lack in usability and failproof
    functioning in my case. So there is still much room for improvements,
    and thumbs up for cron-apt and Debian as far as automatic updates are
    concerned.

    GŁnther

  15. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    houghi wrote:

    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >>>> Debian stable or the LTS variants of Ubuntu which are also free and
    >>>> do have a longer life cycle.
    >>>
    >>> 7 years?

    >>
    >> No, of course not.

    >
    > Why the 'of course'?


    Because no one offering a distribution free of charge will have the
    manpower and ressources to backport every single patch to outdated
    program and kernel versions for such a long time. This is a service for
    customers who are willing to pay for it.

    >> But also not for SLE 10 without further arrangements:
    >>

    >
    > So 7 years as I said. Even fior the 5 years you need some arangement,
    > like paying them.
    >
    >> With a fresh install right now generic support will end in three
    >> years and the extended one in five.

    >
    > So 5 years and very soon 11 will be coming out and then it will be
    > again 7 years.


    So it is seven years provided you install just upon release ;-)

    >> It is not unlikely that the hardware will
    >> be replaced by then. So that should be just fine basically.

    >
    > I have seen hardware changed much before and much after that. At least
    > with SUSE you have the option to go 7 years.


    Actually you don't unless you synchronize your hardware purchases with
    the Novell release cycle.

    > I still think that openSUSE would be the best way for the GP, unless
    > he is willing to pay the updates or has recieved the code for the
    > updates.


    We did not hear much from him and we learned that Lenovo indeed sells
    notebooks with SLED installed. Which in this case will come with a
    proper support contract.

    GŁnther

  16. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >> No. This is all fixable. The key is the ... well.. key that
    >> you register.

    >
    > It all depends on the details of the contract. In my case this won't be
    > fixable. I do not have to register, and I do not get anything from
    > Novell. Moving the machine away from my network means cutting if off
    > from updates.


    _IF_ you move away the machine from the network, the issue _IS_ fixable
    by registering with Novell yourself. The fact that you do not want to do
    that is understandable, yet it _IS_ possible.

    > If you follow how security fixes make their way through the various big
    > Linux distributions you might have noticed that it is hard to predict
    > the order in which they arrive. Sometimes Novell or Red Hat are first,
    > but quite often Debian will react faster than the commercial teams.


    Yes, because they have much more to test and to loose if an update
    creates a security hole. they have contracts with a LOT of big
    businesses and have more to loose then just face.

    Any idea how much it costs if a bankserver goes down? So they check,
    check, re-check and doublecheck.

    > As for bugs and simply bad software: Novell does get away since years
    > with questionable solutions for updates. While rug used in the
    > enterprise version is better than zypper it is still using much to much
    > ressources and has proven to lack in usability and failproof
    > functioning in my case. So there is still much room for improvements,
    > and thumbs up for cron-apt and Debian as far as automatic updates are
    > concerned.


    Obviously you have not tried the openSUSE 11.0 which is the basis for
    SLE 11 because then you would have noticed that much improvement
    already has been done.

    Just curious. What is so different in usage (you already talked about
    resources) that makes cron-apt so much better then what I do now with
    the YaST updater.

    houghi
    --
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done,
    and why. Then do it.
    -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love

  17. Re: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    > Because no one offering a distribution free of charge will have the
    > manpower and ressources to backport every single patch to outdated
    > program and kernel versions for such a long time. This is a service for
    > customers who are willing to pay for it.


    OK.

    >> So 5 years and very soon 11 will be coming out and then it will be
    >> again 7 years.

    >
    > So it is seven years provided you install just upon release ;-)


    Did I say anything else?

    >> I have seen hardware changed much before and much after that. At least
    >> with SUSE you have the option to go 7 years.

    >
    > Actually you don't unless you synchronize your hardware purchases with
    > the Novell release cycle.


    Uhm. so what you are saying is that this is not by default, but if you
    so desire, it is possible. Mmm. That is what I said.

    > We did not hear much from him and we learned that Lenovo indeed sells
    > notebooks with SLED installed. Which in this case will come with a
    > proper support contract.


    That can be the case, but it can also be that the PC was from a compnay
    and the company has a wholesale contract, in which case it could be
    possible that there is no contract.

    Also I do not know how long or even if the contract for updates is
    included. I can imagine that you still have to buy the updates or that
    just one or two years are included so to lower the initial purchace
    price.

    houghi
    --
    Always listen to experts. They'll tell you what can't be done,
    and why. Then do it.
    -- Heinlein : Time Enough For Love

  18. Comparing update systems (Was: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED)

    houghi wrote:

    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:


    >> If you follow how security fixes make their way through the various
    >> big Linux distributions you might have noticed that it is hard to
    >> predict the order in which they arrive. Sometimes Novell or Red Hat
    >> are first, but quite often Debian will react faster than the
    >> commercial teams.

    >
    > Yes, because they have much more to test and to loose if an update
    > creates a security hole. they have contracts with a LOT of big
    > businesses and have more to loose then just face.
    >
    > Any idea how much it costs if a bankserver goes down? So they check,
    > check, re-check and doublecheck.


    At least one hopes that they do so ;-)
    Last February Novell released a faulty nss_ldap package which resulted
    in wrong UIDs both for the community and the enterprise edition
    (CVE-2007-5794). That's severe indeed and nearly destroyed my network.
    **** happens, so I do not think that SLE is worse than others. But IMHO
    it is quite reliable not because of superior quality checks but due to
    kernel and package versions that had more time to reach a mature state
    than the latest ones that come with freshly released community
    distributions.

    >> As for bugs and simply bad software: Novell does get away since years
    >> with questionable solutions for updates. While rug used in the
    >> enterprise version is better than zypper it is still using much to
    >> much ressources and has proven to lack in usability and failproof
    >> functioning in my case. So there is still much room for improvements,
    >> and thumbs up for cron-apt and Debian as far as automatic updates are
    >> concerned.

    >
    > Obviously you have not tried the openSUSE 11.0 which is the basis for
    > SLE 11 because then you would have noticed that much improvement
    > already has been done.


    Up to now I just had time to have a quick glance at it. Updates and
    installation are much faster indeed. To check if the problems I will
    describe below are solved will need a closer look.

    > Just curious. What is so different in usage (you already talked about
    > resources) that makes cron-apt so much better then what I do now with
    > the YaST updater.


    I want to give three examples which are typical for any update service.
    This is not intended to start one of these silly discussions about the
    merits of various distributions but just to explain why I consider the
    update procedure in Debian to be much more usable. Note that all
    updates are done automatically as I do not have time to click on
    desktop icons and typing passwords on all systems. Many of them have no
    X installed anyway.

    1) Service not available:

    This is the most common problem with automatic updates: a server will
    not be available, a nfs mount with an ISO image hangs, or a DVD is
    missing in the tray. I had this problem recently as a local mirror I
    use for updates crashed with a hardware problem.

    Debian Stable:
    Cron-apt sends me an email telling me that there is a problem with the
    repositories and then quits:
    | Failed to fetch http://ftp.XXX/pub/Linux/debian/dists/etch/Release.gpg
    | Could not connect to ftp.XXX:80, connection timed out
    | E: Some index files failed to download, they have been ignored, or old
    | ones used instead.
    So I can decide what to do the next day.

    openSuSE 10.2:
    Zypper crashes with 100% CPU load. The system is unusable until I
    manually kill the process. Very bad.

    openSuSE 10.3:
    Zypper started by crond gives up because of the failing connection.
    Crond will send the output to root@localhost:
    | Repository 'XXX' is invalid.
    | Curl error
    | for 'http://ftp.XXX/opensuse/update/10.3/repodata/repomd.xml':
    | Error code: Unrecognized error
    | Error message: connect() timed out!
    If I actually want this mail in my inbox I either have to redirect all
    mail to root on this machine to my account or I have to write a script
    that calls zypper and redirects stdout to a mailer.
    An additional problem here is that this version of zypper (0.8.25) is
    unable to distinguish between output to the command line and redirected
    output. Thus the mail is full of cursor commands which makes it
    unreadable, e.g.:

    Applying
    delta: /var/adm/mount/AP_0x00000001/rpm/i586/libvorbis-1.2.0-11_11.2.i586.delta.rpm
    ^[[2K^M* Installing: libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2 [0%]^[[2K^M* Installing:
    libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2 [100%]^[[2K^M* Installing:
    +libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2 [0%]^[[2K^M* Installing: libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2
    [50%]^[[2K^M* Installing: libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2 [0%]^[[2K
    +* Installing: libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2 [5%]^[[2K^M* Installing:
    libvorbis-1.2.0-11.2 [10%]^[[2K^M* Installing:

    SLES10:
    In case a service it not available, e.g. an expired evaluation license
    for access to the Novell update server, rug does not crash like zypper
    on 10.2. But it tries over and over again resulting in a high CPU load
    for half an hour or so. Not so nice on a server machine that has also
    other things to do.

    2) Kernel update:

    Debian Stable:
    Installs kernel, sends mail and quits. I will have to reboot the next
    day, of course.

    openSuSE 10.3:
    Does not install the new kernel because I have to click a licence
    agreement despite the option --auto-agree-with-licenses being set.

    3) Changing the repositories:

    Debian Stable:
    Cron-apt is configured by two ASCII files for the repositories and
    program options. So changing the repositories or the options on many
    machines means simply editing these files and distributing them over
    the network. A work of five minutes at most for applying the changes to
    an arbitrary number of systems.

    openSuSE:
    zypper uses a database for it's repositories. Up to now I did not find a
    way to changing them without a login. So I have to use YAST or command
    line options in order to add or remove repositories. On every single
    machine, bah.

    SLES10:
    SLES uses the Zenworks Management. So it will be possible to manage ZMD
    in a centralized manner. But I do not have this tool at hand, so I use
    command line options to change the repositories with rug. With just a
    single update server available as in my case this has to be done just
    once upon installation, of course.

    GŁnther

  19. Re: Comparing update systems (Was: What is the relationship between OpenSuse and SLED)

    GŁnther Schwarz wrote:
    >> Obviously you have not tried the openSUSE 11.0 which is the basis for
    >> SLE 11 because then you would have noticed that much improvement
    >> already has been done.

    >
    > Up to now I just had time to have a quick glance at it. Updates and
    > installation are much faster indeed.


    They knew there was a problem there and have concentrated on it. Not
    sure what they will be concentrating on for the next version. They do
    listen to what people want and try to fit it in to what they can do.

    Obviously other people can help. Previously they have been concentrating
    on the build service. Unfortunatly that is something most people do not
    realy notice.

    > To check if the problems I will
    > describe below are solved will need a closer look.
    >
    >> Just curious. What is so different in usage (you already talked about
    >> resources) that makes cron-apt so much better then what I do now with
    >> the YaST updater.

    >
    > I want to give three examples which are typical for any update service.
    > This is not intended to start one of these silly discussions about the
    > merits of various distributions but just to explain why I consider the
    > update procedure in Debian to be much more usable.


    Great, because I am realy interested as all I have heard was that you
    use apt and things get done.

    > Note that all
    > updates are done automatically as I do not have time to click on
    > desktop icons and typing passwords on all systems. Many of them have no
    > X installed anyway.


    I understand. I do the same thing. Except for the initial setup with
    YaST, I just let it do daily updates automagicaly. With YaST X is not
    needed.

    > 1) Service not available:
    >
    > This is the most common problem with automatic updates: a server will
    > not be available, a nfs mount with an ISO image hangs, or a DVD is
    > missing in the tray. I had this problem recently as a local mirror I
    > use for updates crashed with a hardware problem.


    I must admit that all my updates come via the Interweb. None are local
    so I never had a problem with this.

    > openSuSE 10.3:
    > Zypper started by crond gives up because of the failing connection.
    > Crond will send the output to root@localhost:
    >| Repository 'XXX' is invalid.
    >| Curl error
    >| for 'http://ftp.XXX/opensuse/update/10.3/repodata/repomd.xml':
    >| Error code: Unrecognized error
    >| Error message: connect() timed out!


    Things I get most of the time is the following:
    A ZYpp transaction is already in progress. This means, there is another
    application using the libzypp library for package management running.
    All such applications must be closed before using this command

    When there is no connection, I also do get an error.

    > If I actually want this mail in my inbox I either have to redirect all
    > mail to root on this machine to my account or I have to write a script
    > that calls zypper and redirects stdout to a mailer.


    I would have set that up anyway. I do like to get the mail and not just
    that mail. This needs just editing of the /etc/aliases file and run
    `newaliases` again. Something I would do for each machine I am admin of.

    > An additional problem here is that this version of zypper (0.8.25) is
    > unable to distinguish between output to the command line and redirected
    > output. Thus the mail is full of cursor commands which makes it
    > unreadable, e.g.:


    I agree. I do not see that in 11.0 anymore, but I disliked it in 10.3
    and am ashamed I was too lazy to file a bugreport.

    > 2) Kernel update:
    > openSuSE 10.3:
    > Does not install the new kernel because I have to click a licence
    > agreement despite the option --auto-agree-with-licenses being set.


    The reason this is done is it might leave your system unworkable,
    because you will need to reboot. Not an option for a server when that
    happens on a saturday evening and everybody is out.
    The thing I run with is:
    zypper --quiet up -y -t patch --skip-interactive

    That way it won't install anything that asks for a license or a reboot.

    Just explaining the POV of openSUSE, not saying which is better.

    > 3) Changing the repositories:
    >
    > Debian Stable:
    > Cron-apt is configured by two ASCII files for the repositories and
    > program options. So changing the repositories or the options on many
    > machines means simply editing these files and distributing them over
    > the network. A work of five minutes at most for applying the changes to
    > an arbitrary number of systems.


    If I understand correctly, cron-apt is a script that uses some
    parameters?

    > openSuSE:
    > zypper uses a database for it's repositories. Up to now I did not find a
    > way to changing them without a login. So I have to use YAST or command
    > line options in order to add or remove repositories. On every single
    > machine, bah.


    Make one script that does that for you. Indeed it is expected that you
    just use that you need. With what you are running, I am sure you know
    how to put together a bash script that is able to do this for you.

    From what I see both have about the same functionality. The big
    difference is that cron-apt is already there, while for openSUSE you
    would need to write your own few lines of code if you need to change the
    servers often.

    I have read http://www.debian-administration.org/articles/162 and there
    I do not see anything that I not already do. I have autmated updates and
    can easily change the servers, if I so desire.

    The main difference is that with cron-apt you can place the config file
    on some NFS place and do everything at once, where with openSUSE you
    will need to do it per machine, unless you write a script that does it
    for you.

    So there are differences, but to me not enough to say that one is much
    better then the other. Just different.

    houghi
    --
    Remind me to write an article on the compulsive reading of news. The
    theme will be that most neuroses can be traced to the unhealthy habit
    of wallowing in the troubles of five billion strangers. -- Heinlein

  20. Re: Comparing update systems

    houghi hatte geschrieben:

    > GŁnther Schwarz wrote:


    >>> Just curious. What is so different in usage (you already talked
    >>> about resources) that makes cron-apt so much better then what I do
    >>> now with the YaST updater.

    >>
    >> I want to give three examples which are typical for any update
    >> service.


    >> Note that all
    >> updates are done automatically as I do not have time to click on
    >> desktop icons and typing passwords on all systems. Many of them have
    >> no X installed anyway.

    >
    > I understand. I do the same thing. Except for the initial setup with
    > YaST, I just let it do daily updates automagicaly. With YaST X is not
    > needed.
    >
    >> 1) Service not available:
    >>
    >> This is the most common problem with automatic updates: a server will
    >> not be available, a nfs mount with an ISO image hangs, or a DVD is
    >> missing in the tray. I had this problem recently as a local mirror I
    >> use for updates crashed with a hardware problem.

    >
    > I must admit that all my updates come via the Interweb. None are local
    > so I never had a problem with this.


    Also download.opensuse.org was down for some days a few moths back. So
    you were lucky indeed. Any update software has to have a proper error
    response for network problems.

    >> openSuSE 10.3:
    >> Zypper started by crond gives up because of the failing connection.
    >> Crond will send the output to root@localhost:
    >>| Repository 'XXX' is invalid.
    >>| Curl error
    >>| for 'http://ftp.XXX/opensuse/update/10.3/repodata/repomd.xml':
    >>| Error code: Unrecognized error
    >>| Error message: connect() timed out!

    >
    > Things I get most of the time is the following:
    > A ZYpp transaction is already in progress. This means, there is
    > another application using the libzypp library for package management
    > running. All such applications must be closed before using this
    > command


    In my case it was still running from the previous try 24h back. The
    updater has to give up at some point instead of eating up ressources in
    an infinite loop as in 10.2. The problem was fixed with 10.3 obviously.

    >> If I actually want this mail in my inbox I either have to redirect
    >> all mail to root on this machine to my account or I have to write a
    >> script that calls zypper and redirects stdout to a mailer.

    >
    > I would have set that up anyway. I do like to get the mail and not
    > just that mail. This needs just editing of the /etc/aliases file and
    > run `newaliases` again. Something I would do for each machine I am
    > admin of.


    This would be too many mails here. There are several things initiated by
    crond including updates of rrd databases which are done every 5
    minutes. I do not want all of this mail :-)

    >> An additional problem here is that this version of zypper (0.8.25) is
    >> unable to distinguish between output to the command line and
    >> redirected output. Thus the mail is full of cursor commands which
    >> makes it unreadable, e.g.:

    >
    > I agree. I do not see that in 11.0 anymore, but I disliked it in 10.3
    > and am ashamed I was too lazy to file a bugreport.
    >
    >> 2) Kernel update:
    >> openSuSE 10.3:
    >> Does not install the new kernel because I have to click a licence
    >> agreement despite the option --auto-agree-with-licenses being set.

    >
    > The reason this is done is it might leave your system unworkable,
    > because you will need to reboot. Not an option for a server when that
    > happens on a saturday evening and everybody is out.


    But it should be left to my decision and responsibility. That said up to
    now I never had a system in an inoperative state after a kernel update,
    so knock on wood. But then I do not do automatic updates on the machine
    that offers the vital services like LDAP and mail.

    > The thing I run with is:
    > zypper --quiet up -y -t patch --skip-interactive
    >
    > That way it won't install anything that asks for a license or a
    > reboot.


    And I will never get new kernel versions or Acrobat Reader without
    having a close look at the updates and what was skipped.

    >> 3) Changing the repositories:
    >>
    >> Debian Stable:
    >> Cron-apt is configured by two ASCII files for the repositories and
    >> program options. So changing the repositories or the options on many
    >> machines means simply editing these files and distributing them over
    >> the network. A work of five minutes at most for applying the changes
    >> to an arbitrary number of systems.

    > ack
    > If I understand correctly, cron-apt is a script that uses some
    > parameters?


    Yes, it uses the apt-get command which then calls the dpkg package
    handler.

    >> openSuSE:
    >> zypper uses a database for it's repositories. Up to now I did not
    >> find a way to changing them without a login. So I have to use YAST or
    >> command line options in order to add or remove repositories. On every
    >> single machine, bah.

    >
    > Make one script that does that for you. Indeed it is expected that you
    > just use that you need. With what you are running, I am sure you know
    > how to put together a bash script that is able to do this for you.


    Yes, of course. I did this for smart and it works just fine. But a
    script that parses the zypper output correctly will be lengthy and
    cumbersome to write up for the reason I mentioned previously.

    > From what I see both have about the same functionality. The big
    > difference is that cron-apt is already there, while for openSUSE you
    > would need to write your own few lines of code if you need to change
    > the servers often.


    This is what I am complaining about. Zypper obviously is not intended
    for use other than a simple and isolated desktop system. Otherwise the
    developers would have thought about how to make it managable and usable
    in a networked environment. No one has time to write scripts for simple
    desktop systems these days.

    > The main difference is that with cron-apt you can place the config
    > file on some NFS place and do everything at once, where with openSUSE
    > you will need to do it per machine, unless you write a script that
    > does it for you.
    >
    > So there are differences, but to me not enough to say that one is much
    > better then the other. Just different.


    Leaving the bugs aside the main difference here is that the person who
    wrote the cron-apt package had networked environments in mind and
    thought about a way to do things in a convenient way on these. At SuSE
    people were thinking of isolated desktop systems (zypper) or
    heterogenous environments (rug) obviously. One results in a focus on
    tray bar icons and a colorful interface while the other becomes
    interesting only in big networks running Novell's server software.
    Another point is that cron-apt and apt-get are set up in the traditional
    UNIX way were everything is configured via ASCII text files. The SuSE
    tools are more 'modern' and abstract from the OS with configuration in
    databases. This can result in better performance and give the
    possibility to write platform-independent tools. Rug is even a .NET
    application that runs in a mono environment and is obviously intended
    as a replacement for the Microsoft updater on Windows clients. As a
    result both are much less flexible and harder to handle for a sysadmin
    who is used to work the old UNIX way. Editing files is much simpler and
    safer than using scripts which call complex commands like zypper or
    rug.

    GŁnther

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