Re: Internet Explorer emulator? - Suse

This is a discussion on Re: Internet Explorer emulator? - Suse ; Darrell Stec wrote: > But that is the whole point. They already purchased Windows once with the > machine, just like I did with mine. That is not always the case. Also that is a Windows problem, so they should ...

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Thread: Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

  1. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    Darrell Stec wrote:
    > But that is the whole point. They already purchased Windows once with the
    > machine, just like I did with mine.


    That is not always the case. Also that is a Windows problem, so they
    should solve that in a Windows group.

    > So yes Windows can be purchased but with a VM it gets bought twice.


    No. I got Windows (Vista, I think) with my latetst portable and 3.1 with
    my 386. I bought Win95 (first edition) and except these two systems,
    none of them included any Windows.

    > But doesn't Windows have to be installed on the Linux partition or are you
    > saying that with a dual boot setup, a virtual machine talks to the Windows
    > partition from the Linux partition?


    No. A virtual machine talks to nothing. There are some exceptions, like
    the disc player if you so desire. What it does is it makes a file. This
    file can be seen on your instalation as someting that is e.g. 8GB large.
    You can not do anything with it.

    When you start the virtal manager it emulates to be a computer that
    starts up with its own bios and it own empty HD. This won't boot, just
    as it won't boot when you have an empty PC.

    You can then let it boot from floppy or cd/dvd (real or image) and
    install the OS of your choice.

    houghi
    --
    Listen do you hear them drawing near in their search for the sinners?
    Feeding on the power of our fear and the evil within us.
    Incarnation of Satan's creation of all that we dread.
    When the demons arrive those alive would be better off dead!

  2. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    houghi wrote:

    > Darrell Stec wrote:
    >> But that is the whole point. They already purchased Windows once with
    >> the machine, just like I did with mine.

    >
    > That is not always the case. Also that is a Windows problem, so they
    > should solve that in a Windows group.
    >


    I am specifically talking about situations where that is the case. Where
    the machine comes with Windows preloaded on a recovery partition that is
    often invoked by the BIOS. On these types of machines (and more and more
    of them are being sold that way), you already paid for Windows because you
    cannot get that machine for less without an operating system namely
    Windows. What would any of those Windows groups know about Linux virtual
    machines?

    >> So yes Windows can be purchased but with a VM it gets bought twice.

    >
    > No. I got Windows (Vista, I think) with my latetst portable and 3.1 with
    > my 386. I bought Win95 (first edition) and except these two systems,
    > none of them included any Windows.
    >


    But did it come preinstalled on your system with a recovery system that
    totally wipes out C drive and all data? Many if not most retail stores
    sell their computers that way now days.


    >> But doesn't Windows have to be installed on the Linux partition or are
    >> you saying that with a dual boot setup, a virtual machine talks to the
    >> Windows partition from the Linux partition?

    >
    > No. A virtual machine talks to nothing. There are some exceptions, like
    > the disc player if you so desire. What it does is it makes a file. This
    > file can be seen on your instalation as someting that is e.g. 8GB large.
    > You can not do anything with it.
    >


    And how does this file address Windows? Don't you have to install Windows
    AFTER you set up the virtual machine? If it runs Windows then it "talks"
    to Windows or interacts with Windows. Or does it run the original Windows
    (drive C) that is already set up on your dual booting drive?

    > When you start the virtal manager it emulates to be a computer that
    > starts up with its own bios and it own empty HD. This won't boot, just
    > as it won't boot when you have an empty PC.
    >
    > You can then let it boot from floppy or cd/dvd (real or image) and
    > install the OS of your choice.
    >
    > houghi


    I have a strong feeling than neither you nor Vahis has used a computer like
    Acer, HP or Compaq where the operating system, WinXP or Vista, is on a
    separate partition sometimes hidden on some models. If Windows screws up,
    there is no repair facility. There is a BIOS option to run the recovery
    proceedure with will delete everything on C drive, reformat it, and
    reinstall your operating system and all divers and applications that came
    with your computer. You don't get to pick and choose, and you don't get to
    expand any files as you could on normal Windows OS CD.

    Perhaps I am misunderstanding how to use vm, but from what I read, you
    install vm (Virtual Box for instance) on your Linux partition. Then you
    install the operating system of your choice such as WinXP. But on my
    system and most of the new systems in retail stores the computer now comes
    with recovery program that wipes your drive clean. How can you get the
    WinXP installed to the Linux virtual machine in this instance?

    Or does it just address the original C drive on the original partition?

    --
    Later,
    Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

    Webpage Sorcery
    http://webpagesorcery.com
    We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

  3. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    Darrell Stec wrote:
    > What would any of those Windows groups know about Linux virtual
    > machines?


    That is irrelevant. A virtual machine is basicaly the same as any other
    machine. Wether this is a virtual machine or a machine he build himself
    is irrelevant.

    >> No. I got Windows (Vista, I think) with my latetst portable and 3.1 with
    >> my 386. I bought Win95 (first edition) and except these two systems,
    >> none of them included any Windows.

    >
    > But did it come preinstalled on your system with a recovery system that
    > totally wipes out C drive and all data? Many if not most retail stores
    > sell their computers that way now days.


    The first one I do not remember wether it was pre-installed or not. The
    last one did. No idea how a recovery works as I never ran Windows on it
    and trew away the CD that came with it.

    So probably many systems are sold that way. That still is a Windows
    problem, not a Linux problem.

    > And how does this file address Windows?


    Please start to understand what a virtual manager is first, because you
    are making yourself risiculous.

    > Don't you have to install Windows
    > AFTER you set up the virtual machine?


    Set up the virtal machine? You run the program which then becomes a PC
    on your PC.

    > If it runs Windows then it "talks"
    > to Windows or interacts with Windows.


    No, it doesn't. It _IS_ Windows. What you are saying is just as silly as
    saying that your pre-installed windows machine talks to windows.

    > Or does it run the original Windows
    > (drive C) that is already set up on your dual booting drive?


    Dual booting has NOTHING to do with virtual machines.

    > I have a strong feeling than neither you nor Vahis has used a computer like
    > Acer, HP or Compaq where the operating system, WinXP or Vista, is on a
    > separate partition sometimes hidden on some models.


    Yes I have. I even have visited some place where they are build and have
    a better understanding of the 'hidden' partition used by those and other
    companies, including some secret codes used and mch more.

    > If Windows screws up,
    > there is no repair facility. There is a BIOS option to run the recovery
    > proceedure with will delete everything on C drive, reformat it, and
    > reinstall your operating system and all divers and applications that came
    > with your computer.


    I know and that is all completely irrelevant to what we are talking
    about.

    > You don't get to pick and choose, and you don't get to
    > expand any files as you could on normal Windows OS CD.


    Well, if you do some tricks before the first boot where in Belgium you
    select e.g. the language, there is a lot more you could do to something
    to install more then just what the company wants you to install.

    Also it is prossible to burn your own recovery CD or DVD and if you did
    not do that, there are processes in place that will let the company send
    you them. However there are strict rules that need to be applied because
    of licencing issues with MS. e.g. if you select the wrong language in
    Belgium and wait to long (or the store made the selection for you) you
    can not get the original language back.

    Both languages are on the 'hidden' partition, but after the choice, the
    things you are not allowed to have (including sometimes games and other
    Windows version) will be deleted, including the 'other' language.

    This just to show that I have indept knowledge of what is going on.

    > Perhaps I am misunderstanding how to use vm,


    Indeed and please first try one out or learn more, because you make
    yourself look silly, especially when you are trying to say that neither
    I or Vahis know what we are talking about.

    > but from what I read, you
    > install vm (Virtual Box for instance) on your Linux partition.


    Yes. I use Parallels. VMware is another very popular one.

    > Then you
    > install the operating system of your choice such as WinXP.


    Indeed or any other

    > But on my
    > system and most of the new systems in retail stores the computer now comes
    > with recovery program that wipes your drive clean. How can you get the
    > WinXP installed to the Linux virtual machine in this instance?


    The virtual machine is a machine within the machine, so probably it
    might not work, or it could work. No idea, but that is a Windows issue
    and probably an OEM or even a Lisence issue, not a Linux issue.

    > Or does it just address the original C drive on the original partition?


    No, it does not.

    Forget about the instalation of Windows. That is a Windows issue and
    should be handled in a Windows group.

    Say I have 10.3 running and I want to install 11.0Beta2 on a virtual
    machine. What I do is start up Parallels. What I see is a screen whit a
    'ON' button somewhere. When I press that button, the virtual machine
    boots. What I see on my desktop is a screen that shows a system booting.
    This is IN the Parallels program. That system boots. It is not a real
    computer, it is a _virtual_ computer. When I do nothing, it will give me
    an error, becaus ethe 'disk' is sees is also a virtual disk. On my
    'real' system that is an 8GB file. Not a partition, a file.

    To install Linux in my virtual PC, I need to get an ISO and install my
    OS inside that virtual PC.

    To connect between the virtual and the real one is possible, just like
    between two real machines. So that happens via network.
    http://www.parallels.com/ is a place where you can download a demo for
    parallels. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_machine for more info

    houghi
    --
    >>>> Run the following from the bashprompt if you have the kernel sources

    for I in `find /usr/src/linux/ -name *.c`; \
    do A=`grep -i -A 1 -B 1 **** $I`;if [ "$A" != "" ]; \
    then printf "$I \n$A \n\n"; fi ;done|less

  4. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    Darrell Stec wrote:
    > houghi wrote:
    >
    >> The first one I do not remember wether it was pre-installed or not. The
    >> last one did. No idea how a recovery works as I never ran Windows on it
    >> and trew away the CD that came with it.

    >
    > And that is the key. New computers that I am talking about do not come with
    > a CD. They have a BIOS option that formats the hard drive and copies an
    > image onto it from a recovery partition often hidden but not always.


    I know as I explained. However I do not see that as something an
    openSUSE should be interested in. If somebody comes here and asks how to
    install his Ubuntu, I would point him to a Ubuntu group as well. This is
    not because I do not want to help, but because they should get better
    support in their own group.

    If I say _you need to install Ubuntu_ they should be aware of the
    possibilaties and restrictions, not me. Covering all bases should be
    done in their own group.

    houghi
    --
    >>>> Run the following from the bashprompt if you have the kernel sources

    for I in `find /usr/src/linux/ -name *.c`; \
    do A=`grep -i -A 1 -B 1 **** $I`;if [ "$A" != "" ]; \
    then printf "$I \n$A \n\n"; fi ;done|less

  5. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    On Tue, 06 May 2008 21:03:12 -0400, Darrell Stec wrote:
    >houghi wrote:
    >> The first one I do not remember wether it was pre-installed or not. The
    >> last one did. No idea how a recovery works as I never ran Windows on it
    >> and trew away the CD that came with it.

    >And that is the key. New computers that I am talking about do not come with
    >a CD. They have a BIOS option that formats the hard drive and copies an
    >image onto it from a recovery partition often hidden but not always.


    First of all, that is wrong. Many companies allow you to get a full
    OS-CD with your system at a low cost (Dell IIRC 5 EUR).

    And even if not, which part of
    On Wed, 7 May 2008 01:43:16 +0200, houghi wrote:
    >Also it is prossible to burn your own recovery CD or DVD and if you did
    >not do that, there are processes in place that will let the company send
    >you them. However there are strict rules that need to be applied because


    escapes you? You CAN burn your own recovery medium. Which according to
    what I've heard is difficult to impossible on Dells but easier on
    systems of other vendors. And Dell offers you a Recovery CD anyway.

    Oh, and BTW. You do not need to delete the recovery partition on your
    computers drive when you install Linux, and you can even run a lot of
    Linux distros from a life installation to test if everything works as
    you want before you even delete the windows partitions of your comp.

    You have a lot of choices - nowadays you can even buy computers from
    renowned vendors with a preinstalled Distro of Linux on them, and buy a
    cheap windows licence to install on your Virtual Machine.

    So, other than you ignorance about Virtual Machines, which could be
    solved if you'd read what houghi and others write, I don't see a
    problem.

    Aleks

  6. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    Aleks A.-Lessmann wrote:

    > On Tue, 06 May 2008 21:03:12 -0400, Darrell Stec wrote:
    >>houghi wrote:
    >>> The first one I do not remember wether it was pre-installed or not. The
    >>> last one did. No idea how a recovery works as I never ran Windows on it
    >>> and trew away the CD that came with it.

    >>And that is the key. New computers that I am talking about do not come
    >>with
    >>a CD. They have a BIOS option that formats the hard drive and copies an
    >>image onto it from a recovery partition often hidden but not always.

    >
    > First of all, that is wrong. Many companies allow you to get a full
    > OS-CD with your system at a low cost (Dell IIRC 5 EUR).
    >


    Most companies (and Dell is the exception and newest kid on the block with
    Recovery partitions) have a disk image of not just the Windows operating
    system but also all the applications and drivers that original came on the
    computer.

    And since I've helped quite a few people order such disks, I know for a fact
    the price is not nominal unless of course one considers $200 to $300
    nominal And the replacement disks you will get is an exact copy of the
    backup disks one should have made in the first place, i.e. the full backup
    of the recover partition complete with OS, applications and drivers, a
    mirror image of the original hard drive. You don't get the independent
    disks for windows.

    > And even if not, which part of
    > On Wed, 7 May 2008 01:43:16 +0200, houghi wrote:
    >>Also it is prossible to burn your own recovery CD or DVD and if you did
    >>not do that, there are processes in place that will let the company send
    >>you them. However there are strict rules that need to be applied because

    >
    > escapes you? You CAN burn your own recovery medium. Which according to
    > what I've heard is difficult to impossible on Dells but easier on
    > systems of other vendors. And Dell offers you a Recovery CD anyway.
    >


    That is what I wrote. You are supposed to back up the recover partition
    right after you first plug the computer in. The recovery partition is a
    mirror image of the hard drive albeit in compressed format. It is invoked
    via a BIOS routine at boot time should you press the proper function key.


    > Oh, and BTW. You do not need to delete the recovery partition on your
    > computers drive when you install Linux, and you can even run a lot of
    > Linux distros from a life installation to test if everything works as
    > you want before you even delete the windows partitions of your comp.
    >


    I know that. Which is why I suggested that one one the posters remarks to
    delete D: and E: that with some Vista systems, it is not a good idea. You
    seem to be reading the exact opposite of what I wrote.

    > You have a lot of choices - nowadays you can even buy computers from
    > renowned vendors with a preinstalled Distro of Linux on them, and buy a
    > cheap windows licence to install on your Virtual Machine.
    >
    > So, other than you ignorance about Virtual Machines, which could be
    > solved if you'd read what houghi and others write, I don't see a
    > problem.
    >


    You created a problem by misreading what I wrote. As to your suggestion
    about a cheap windows license, I don't know of a retail store here that
    offers them. In fact walking into any Best Buy, Circuit City, Staples, or
    Office Max and you will be hard pressed to find any Linux machines in them.
    Worse than that, in those stores even with all the various flavors of
    Windows Vista and WinXP out there, your choices will be Vista Home Premium,
    Vista Home Premium, Vista Home Premium or Vista Home Premium. Most people
    in the US buy their computers from those stores or from Dell. And I would
    say the same applies to small businesses too.


    > Aleks


    --
    Later,
    Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

    Webpage Sorcery
    http://webpagesorcery.com
    We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

  7. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    Darrell Stec wrote:
    > Most companies (and Dell is the exception and newest kid on the block with
    > Recovery partitions) have a disk image of not just the Windows operating
    > system but also all the applications and drivers that original came on the
    > computer.


    And not only are they from the computer you are buying the software. It
    is the software from a whole range.
    So if the range has e.g. 25 extra software packes, they are all on
    there.
    This means that if they are on there, you could take them out as well.
    At some companies the only thing you need is a code.

    So we all have established how pre-installed PC's go about. I have even
    SEEN how they are produced and how the image is dealth with and that
    what the company actualy pays for is the sticker on the side of the PC

    I also have seen how they can just as easily do FreeDos instalations
    (and they did) or if they wanted Linux or whatever.

    I have also seen that the burn-in software is deleted before the system
    gets shipped.

    However although I have all this knowledge, I think if there are issues
    with Windows (licencing or whatever) that should be solved in a Windows
    group.

    houghi
    --
    This was written under the influence of the following:
    | Artist : Jean Michel Jarre
    | Song : Oxygene (Part IV)
    | Album : Oxygene

  8. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    Darrell Stec wrote:

    > Most companies (and Dell is the exception and newest kid on the block with
    > Recovery partitions) have a disk image of not just the Windows operating
    > system but also all the applications and drivers that original came on the
    > computer.
    >
    > And since I've helped quite a few people order such disks, I know for a
    > fact the price is not nominal unless of course one considers $200 to $300
    > nominal * And the replacement disks you will get is an exact copy of the
    > backup disks one should have made in the first place, i.e. the full backup
    > of the recover partition complete with OS, applications and drivers, a
    > mirror image of the original hard drive. *You don't get the independent
    > disks for windows.


    Close - but I've had the pleasure? of working with several versions lately
    and the recovery partitions contain a customized version of the
    installation that also includes all the crapware the OEM wants to sell you
    as well as their own recovery programs. Lenovo, for example, still uses
    the IBM Thinkvantage app and omits a lot of drivers for hardware not
    shipped with the original machine. I usually wind up spending a while on
    the net pulling drivers for old or strange stuff when I get around to
    restoring something I've managed to clobber while the generic discs from MS
    are a bit more complete (and have their own adware). The recovery
    partition is pretty much a scripted install of the system from custom
    images. Oh, and most seem to take at least 3 times as long as a fresh
    install.

    --
    Will Honea
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

  9. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    On 2008-05-09, houghi wrote:
    > Darrell Stec wrote:
    >> Most companies (and Dell is the exception and newest kid on the block with
    >> Recovery partitions) have a disk image of not just the Windows operating
    >> system but also all the applications and drivers that original came on the
    >> computer.

    >
    > And not only are they from the computer you are buying the software. It
    > is the software from a whole range.
    > So if the range has e.g. 25 extra software packes, they are all on
    > there.
    > This means that if they are on there, you could take them out as well.
    > At some companies the only thing you need is a code.
    >
    > So we all have established how pre-installed PC's go about. I have even
    > SEEN how they are produced and how the image is dealth with and that
    > what the company actualy pays for is the sticker on the side of the PC
    >
    > I also have seen how they can just as easily do FreeDos instalations
    > (and they did) or if they wanted Linux or whatever.
    >
    > I have also seen that the burn-in software is deleted before the system
    > gets shipped.
    >
    > However although I have all this knowledge, I think if there are issues
    > with Windows (licencing or whatever) that should be solved in a Windows
    > group.


    And I'm telling this just for fun:

    Yesterday evening I installed SP3 on an XP running in VMWare on openSUSE 10.3.
    I downloaded the package from MS, 300 megs plus, on a server and ran it
    from there over Samba. I'll do a couple more today.

    All went perfectly well. It took about an hour and a half, needed no
    user intervention. Of course, the normal reboot at the end.

    Note: The server as well as the client machine's host OS is openSUSE.
    That makes this post relevant in this group

    Vahis
    --
    Training new things here:
    http://waxborg.servepics.com
    "The only thing more expensive than training is the lack of it"
    Henry Ford

  10. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    In <20080510065404@usenet.waxborg.local> Vahis:

    [Snip...]

    > All went perfectly well. It took about an hour and a half, needed no
    > user intervention. Of course, the normal reboot at the end.


    FWIW...

    You missed all the fun, it seems:

    What are doing this weekend? How about watching your PC continually
    reboot? That's what some aggravated Windows XP users have been doing
    Friday after installing the XP service pack 3 (SP3).

    More:

    http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2302371,00.asp

    --
    Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
    Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
    Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
    I toss GoogleGroup posts from gitgo (http://improve-usenet.org).

  11. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    On 2008-05-10, Harold Stevens wrote:
    > In <20080510065404@usenet.waxborg.local> Vahis:
    >
    > [Snip...]
    >
    >> All went perfectly well. It took about an hour and a half, needed no
    >> user intervention. Of course, the normal reboot at the end.

    >
    > FWIW...
    >
    > You missed all the fun, it seems:
    >
    > What are doing this weekend? How about watching your PC continually
    > reboot? That's what some aggravated Windows XP users have been doing
    > Friday after installing the XP service pack 3 (SP3).
    >
    > More:
    >
    > http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,2302371,00.asp
    >


    That was my main reson to do it. I wanted to see.
    I made a snapshot first. That's really cool to do on a vm, you get
    easily back if something goes wrong.

    But there were no issues, goddammit!

    Then I removed all the $NT stuff and defragmented the drive.
    Then I installed Firefox 3 beta and left the vm running.
    It's been running since and there are no issues.

    I also needed to do this because I maintain a couple of dual boots for
    some friends. I have now done that on one piece of real hardware, too.

    No issues.

    Vahis
    --
    Training new things here:
    http://waxborg.servepics.com
    "The only thing more expensive than training is the lack of it"
    Henry Ford

  12. Re: Internet Explorer emulator?

    houghi wrote:

    > Will Honea wrote:
    >> The recovery partition is pretty much a scripted install of the system
    >> from custom images.

    >
    > And you do not like working from images? Oh boy. When I was at FOSDEM
    > openSUSE told me they were intending to use images for instalations. I
    > was the only person objecting and I have not kept up if they were going
    > to do that or not.
    >
    > My objection was that I want to have complete control over the
    > installation if I do wish to have that. I do not want to install first
    > what THEY tell me and then change everything afterwards.
    >
    > When asked if this would be a smil irritation are a big problem, I
    > answerd that it would be a big irritation.
    > Again, I have not followed it up wether it will be done or not. I just
    > hope it won't happen.


    There are images and then there are images. With the one I was working on
    yesterday (Vista from a Lenovo desktop) the recovery files are images of
    the CD contents which have to be unpacked then the unpacked image consists
    of compressed .cab files which have to be further unpacked - too much beer
    drinking time while I wait makes the screen grow fuzzy...

    As for control, I did modify a few of the scripts. Turns out that the step
    (in this particular recovery set) that takes over and reformats the whole
    disk required a two line change to the script to get it to play nice and
    use the existing C: drive (active primary partition) and leave the rest of
    the disk alone. I think I see the setting in another script that
    specifies "unattended" operation - that may also be the key to getting a
    fully attended install so that I can control the options but I haven't had
    the motivation to mess with it yet. I may have to as I'm getting more and
    more calls to rescue clients from some of the latest fixpacks MS has put
    out .

    --
    Will Honea
    ** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

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