Dumb question of the week. - Suse

This is a discussion on Dumb question of the week. - Suse ; Paul J Gans wrote: >>By doing `pin bin/ifconfig`. Either that or by looking at the >>sourcecode. Why? ;-) > > Because NEWBIES don't know about pin and likely don't have > the source code loaded even if they can read ...

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Thread: Dumb question of the week.

  1. Re: Dumb question of the week.

    Paul J Gans wrote:
    >>By doing `pin bin/ifconfig`. Either that or by looking at the
    >>sourcecode. Why? ;-)

    >
    > Because NEWBIES don't know about pin and likely don't have
    > the source code loaded even if they can read it.


    Missed the smiley?

    houghi
    --
    If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and
    Gomorrah an apology.

  2. Re: Dumb question of the week.

    On Mon, 17 Mar 2008 01:52:41 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:

    > marksouth wrote:
    >>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 16:48:54 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:

    >
    >>> marksouth wrote:
    >>>>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 04:02:21 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> Let me give you (and them) an example. Say I want to run "ifconfig"
    >>>>> to check on something with my network connection. You cannot run
    >>>>> that as a normal user because it will not be found by a normal
    >>>>> user's search path.
    >>>
    >>>>/sbin/ifconfig works as a normal user under nearly every distro I've
    >>>>ever used :-)
    >>>
    >>> How did you know it was in /sbin?

    >
    >>Dunno for sure. Mostly when I recall a command and the first part
    >>doesn't respond to tab completion, I try /sbin next.
    >>
    >>> No wonder newbies don't stick around here long. Between the insults
    >>> and the obfuscated answers they get nowhere.

    >
    >>I'm a little offended by this. You seem to be implying that I'm
    >>insulting newbies, or providing an obfuscated answer.

    >
    >>All I did was point out that a normal user can run ifconfig if they know
    >>the path. How that got to accusations of insults and obfuscation is
    >>difficult to understand from where I'm sitting.

    >
    > I'm sorry if I seemed to be picking on you. I wasn't.


    OK, then I misunderstood your intentions.

    > The OP asked a
    > simple question and, as happens, got crap thrown at him as a result.


    That's rough. I plead not guilty however.

    > That's what sparked this thread. The thread title was somebody's
    > response to the OP's question.


    Looking back through the thread, it appears that the title was chosen by
    the OP {him|her|it}self.

    > As far as I know the OP has not been back and, if true, isn't likely to
    > be back.


    "If you love something let it go...."

    > Another victory for openSUSE?


    TBH, I wasn't aware I was partaking in a war, AFAIK I was simply sharing
    information.

    > *That* is what annoys me about all this. I have no problem with the
    > regulars ragging each other once in a while. But that's not the only
    > reason this group exists.


    I do believe I can honestly say that I totally agree with you there.

    That said, I will resolve to try not to contribute to the problem in
    future.

  3. Re: Dumb question of the week.

    The carbonbased lifeform Paul J Gans inspired alt.os.linux.suse with:
    > Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:
    >>The carbonbased lifeform Paul J Gans inspired alt.os.linux.suse with:
    >>> marksouth wrote:
    >>>>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 04:02:21 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> Let me give you (and them) an example. Say I want to run "ifconfig" to
    >>>>> check on something with my network connection. You cannot run that as a
    >>>>> normal user because it will not be found by a normal user's search path.
    >>>
    >>>>/sbin/ifconfig works as a normal user under nearly every distro I've ever
    >>>>used :-)
    >>>
    >>> How did you know it was in /sbin?
    >>>
    >>> No wonder newbies don't stick around here long. Between the
    >>> insults and the obfuscated answers they get nowhere.

    >
    >>Newbies learn by (lots of) reading and going through the OS hierarchie
    >>looking for stuff and studying scripts (in) etc.
    >>I for one am not prepared to dumb down technically correct answers, just
    >>because a newbie doesn't immediatly "get" it. That would be like using
    >>baby-talk to a foreigner in your country, to make it "easy" to understand
    >>for that person. Nevermind that that foreigner subsequently only knows
    >>how to use baby-talk speaking to other people.

    >
    >>I expect a newbie to ask a specific question, or go to any of the
    >>numerous documentation sites, or to the builtin help system, if he sees
    >>something unclear.

    >
    > While I don't disagree with you, I don't totally agree either.
    >
    > One needs to know a certain minimum in order to ask specific
    > questions.


    That bare minimum is readily available all over the net.
    It's just a matter (for the newby) of putting in a little bit of effort
    to find the basics and put those in perspective. The rest follows with
    experimenting, discussions and more reading about specific subjects.

    Not to sound really old, but 14 years ago (my Linux birthday), the
    Internet was totally different from now, and information was not as
    nearly as easy to find as it is now, so if "we" were able to get Linux
    up and running then, the newbies should have absolutely no problem now.
    Btw: my first Linux I must have re-installed at least half a dozen times
    in a month time before I got the hang of (manual) partitioning, manually
    choosing all of the packages (no idea what the hell I was doing the
    first couple of times), getting X up (also manually), making dip scripts
    for my 14k4 modem and a thousand little nags that we now take for
    granted to "just work", but didn't do so then.

    > Some folks learn thata minimum by going off and reading manuals.
    > Others just experiment. And some ask questions.


    A combination of all of the above works best imo.

    > In this case the person seemed to be using root inappropriately
    > and he got basically flammed for it. People new to unixlike
    > systems are not aware of the custom of NOT running as root. They
    > may have grown up in the Microsoft world where the distinction between
    > user and administrator was often not obvious.


    In the Windows world, it's customary to blame the system for things that
    go wrong (which is not always without merit of course), so eventhough
    people know that working as admin doesn't help to make their system
    safer, it's still too easy to curse the OS when it breaks by an
    "unexplained" problem. And of course most other Windows users tell the
    guy with the problem that he is right, and it must have been a "driver",
    "BIOS", "update" problem or any other excuse, but never the user..

    In Linux this position is far more difficult to maintain, because no-one
    agrees with a usenet poster that it's the system's fault when he breakes
    it, so newbies feel they get support in Windows groups, and nothing but
    grief from 'our' side.

    This is not "our" problem though, it's a rite of passage as far as I'm
    concerned, the "good" lot survives to strenghten the community, and the
    "weak" go back to their scapegoat.

    > In any event, he deserved a serious answer and an explaination
    > as to why running as root is Not Good.


    Anyone running any OS for some time has learned that lesson the hard way
    already. Only, as I said, they have no excuse now for what happens.

    > Yes, I know some folks get tired answering the same questions all the
    > time. They should never become teachers.


    So you are one?
    My hat off for you then.

    Theo
    --
    theo at van-werkhoven.nl ICQ:277217131 SuSE Linux
    linuxcounter.org: 99872 Jabber:muadib at jabber.xs4all.nl AMD XP3000+ 1024MB
    "ik _heb_ niets tegen Microsoft, ik heb iets tegen
    de uitwassen *van* Microsoft"

  4. Re: Dumb question of the week.

    houghi wrote:
    > Paul J Gans wrote:
    >> marksouth wrote:
    >>>On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 04:02:21 +0000, Paul J Gans wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Let me give you (and them) an example. Say I want to run "ifconfig" to
    >>>> check on something with my network connection. You cannot run that as a
    >>>> normal user because it will not be found by a normal user's search path.

    >>
    >>>/sbin/ifconfig works as a normal user under nearly every distro I've ever
    >>>used :-)

    >>
    >> How did you know it was in /sbin?

    >
    > By doing `pin bin/ifconfig`. Either that or by looking at the
    > sourcecode. Why? ;-)
    >


    Or of course locate bin/ifconfig


  5. Re: Dumb question of the week.

    Theo v. Werkhoven wrote:
    > That bare minimum is readily available all over the net.


    Indeed it is. Unfortunatly it is not always clear where to look and what
    is relevant, untill you have the solution.

    > It's just a matter (for the newby) of putting in a little bit of effort
    > to find the basics and put those in perspective. The rest follows with
    > experimenting, discussions and more reading about specific subjects.


    I disagree with the 'little bit' and 'just'.

    > Not to sound really old, but 14 years ago (my Linux birthday), the
    > Internet was totally different from now, and information was not as
    > nearly as easy to find as it is now, so if "we" were able to get Linux
    > up and running then, the newbies should have absolutely no problem now.


    And here you make the mistke many people make. The people who started 14
    years ago on the Internet (let alone with Linux) are not the same sort
    of people that start now. People starting then where the 'geeks',
    'nerds' and people who where into computers already.

    People now joining are end-users. So there is a different profile to
    answer to.

    > Btw: my first Linux I must have re-installed at least half a dozen times
    > in a month time before I got the hang of (manual) partitioning, manually
    > choosing all of the packages (no idea what the hell I was doing the
    > first couple of times), getting X up (also manually), making dip scripts
    > for my 14k4 modem and a thousand little nags that we now take for
    > granted to "just work", but didn't do so then.


    Great and I asume you had a great time doing that and learning from it.
    The reason you did that was because you liked doing it. Now there are
    people who like using it, without knowing exactly how. Some will start
    learning more, most won't.

    I know how to drive a car, but I no nothing of the mechanics, nor do I
    want to.

    >> Some folks learn thata minimum by going off and reading manuals.
    >> Others just experiment. And some ask questions.

    >
    > A combination of all of the above works best imo.


    It depends on the person. I can not learn from reading.

    > This is not "our" problem though, it's a rite of passage as far as I'm
    > concerned, the "good" lot survives to strenghten the community, and the
    > "weak" go back to their scapegoat.


    And here we differ. I welcome mere users. You welcome only the elite.
    Wether they want to become more then a user is up to them, not to me. To
    me the way to get more people working for Linux, as oposed with, it by
    having as much people join.

    If you make the learning curve too steep, you scare away potential.

    houghi
    --
    If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and
    Gomorrah an apology.

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