Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid - Suse

This is a discussion on Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid - Suse ; houghi wrote: > Kevin Miller wrote: >> houghi wrote: >> >>> I did not say it is fast. I say _I_ do not see any problems with the >>> speed. You can turn off the updating for each repo if ...

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Thread: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

  1. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:
    > Kevin Miller wrote:
    >> houghi wrote:
    >>
    >>> I did not say it is fast. I say _I_ do not see any problems with the
    >>> speed. You can turn off the updating for each repo if you so desire.

    >> Sure, but then how do you get notified of updates.

    >
    > By email once they are done.


    Got a link?

    >> Some repos are
    >> turned off on my system, such as the Nvidia one. Can't turn them all
    >> off though and still run a reasonably patched system. Or am I missing
    >> something?

    >
    > Perhaps the fact that you do not do the updates automagicaly.


    Guess you could say I'm running semi-automatically. The updater in the
    kicker lets me know when there are updates but I install them manually.
    But even if I did automatic updates, the system would have to query the
    repos to realize there were updates to be had. If the repos are turned
    off, automatic update would never kick in. Or do I misunderstand you?


    >> I don't know whether it's a problem or not. But it is an annoyance and
    >> I know it could be better.

    >
    > Then by all means give the solution to the developers and/or give us the
    > bugnumber that you opend and where you are working with the developers
    > on a solution.


    That's a tired old canard. It implies that anybody using open source is
    qualified, interested, or has the time/inclination to be a hacker. I
    mentioned two approaches: apt, which is a proven technology, and
    something based on a DNS type approach. I don't know if anybody is
    exploring the latter but it does wonders with RBLs, SPF, etc. Not to
    mention, um, DNS.



    >> This 'good enough for the girls we go with' attitude puts us not far
    >> from the Microsoft camp IMHO. Open source is wide open for innovation
    >> but too often we settle for much less...

    >
    > What 'we' settle for is what 'we' want. You say you know it could be
    > better. That means you have the solution. Why do you not share that
    > solution with the development team.


    I've never met anyone one the development team. Nor do I have the
    development background to seriously contribute to it. I presume that
    the development teams participates in the 'greater SUSE community' to
    some degree, i.e., they keep their ears to the ground to get a sense of
    how things are working out. But maybe they don't. Maybe they have
    their own little list server or forums and don't care what the
    experience is like for us mere mortals. That would explain a lot.

    I've always liked SUSE. For the most part it's what I want. There are
    enough things goofy in 10.3 however that make me inclined to try other
    distros. Maybe they do it better. So far I'm not wild about Debian
    (except for apt - it works a treat). But maybe Ubuntu will work, I
    dunno. They seem to be listening to consumer feedback at any rate,
    judging from their widespread adoption. Or maybe I'll try them and
    decide they're not for me. The long and short of it is that we settle
    for what works best for us, but doing so doesn't mean we abdicate the
    right point out the flaws.


    > Open source is wide open for innovation, but too often we settle to wait
    > and let others do it for us. Or people just start asuming things,
    > instead of knowing.


    Yup. We wait for things to get fixed by people that know how to fix
    them. When my pipes burst I wait for the plumber. When my car breaks I
    wait for the mechanic to fix it. Why should my computer be any different?

    One would think from your defensiveness that you were responsible for
    the update system.

    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  2. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Kevin Miller wrote:
    >>> Sure, but then how do you get notified of updates.

    >>
    >> By email once they are done.

    >
    > Got a link?


    A link to what? The email is local and not very interesting to read.
    It is the standard output from a cron command.

    >>> Some repos are
    >>> turned off on my system, such as the Nvidia one. Can't turn them all
    >>> off though and still run a reasonably patched system. Or am I missing
    >>> something?

    >>
    >> Perhaps the fact that you do not do the updates automagicaly.

    >
    > Guess you could say I'm running semi-automatically. The updater in the
    > kicker lets me know when there are updates but I install them manually.


    I would not call that semi-automatic.

    > But even if I did automatic updates, the system would have to query the
    > repos to realize there were updates to be had. If the repos are turned
    > off, automatic update would never kick in. Or do I misunderstand you?


    The automatic launches and looks for the updates. Just as would, I
    imagine, kicker. The advantage is that I do not care wether it takes 5
    seconds or 5 hours.

    >
    >>> I don't know whether it's a problem or not. But it is an annoyance and
    >>> I know it could be better.

    >>
    >> Then by all means give the solution to the developers and/or give us the
    >> bugnumber that you opend and where you are working with the developers
    >> on a solution.

    >
    > That's a tired old canard. It implies that anybody using open source is
    > qualified, interested, or has the time/inclination to be a hacker.


    No, _YOU_ said that you know that it is possible. That implies that
    _YOU_ know how to solve it.

    > I mentioned two approaches: apt, which is a proven technology, and
    > something based on a DNS type approach. I don't know if anybody is
    > exploring the latter but it does wonders with RBLs, SPF, etc. Not to
    > mention, um, DNS.


    Great and where can I read about your input on bugzilla? Even mentioning
    (perhaps a bit more in detail) on how you imagine this to be working.
    The APT stuff I get and I am sure that nobody ever thought of it to do
    it that way. I just have no idea what you might mean with the DNS stuff.

    And no, you do not have to be a hacker or even able to write code to
    give feedback on Bugzilla.

    >>> This 'good enough for the girls we go with' attitude puts us not far
    >>> from the Microsoft camp IMHO. Open source is wide open for innovation
    >>> but too often we settle for much less...

    >>
    >> What 'we' settle for is what 'we' want. You say you know it could be
    >> better. That means you have the solution. Why do you not share that
    >> solution with the development team.

    >
    > I've never met anyone one the development team.


    I did, but that is irrelevant. Bugzilla is the tool.

    > Nor do I have the development background to seriously contribute to
    > it.


    Sure you have. You use openSUSE and that is qualification enough. If
    obly developers would ask for things or even test the software, you
    would get something completely different.

    > I presume that the development teams participates in the 'greater SUSE
    > community' to some degree, i.e., they keep their ears to the ground to
    > get a sense of how things are working out. But maybe they don't.


    Sure they do. They look at what that community brings into Bugzilla. If
    it isn't in Bugzalla it isn't a problem. Then there are many, many
    openSUSE mailinglists that they will read.

    > Maybe they have their own little list server or forums and don't care
    > what the experience is like for us mere mortals. That would explain a
    > lot.


    That is just stupid and almost trolling and you know it. If you, as mere
    mortal, would just step down your ivory twoer and just look for a few
    moments on the openSUSE mailinglists what is going on, join an IRC
    meeting (perhaps just lurking) and what not, you would know that you are
    absolutely and completely misinformed.

    > I've always liked SUSE. For the most part it's what I want. There are
    > enough things goofy in 10.3 however that make me inclined to try other
    > distros. Maybe they do it better.


    Great. That is what choice is about

    > So far I'm not wild about Debian (except for apt - it works a treat).
    > But maybe Ubuntu will work, I dunno. They seem to be listening to
    > consumer feedback at any rate, judging from their widespread adoption.


    And again I am asking you what customer feedback have you given to
    openSUSE that they have ignored? And no, telling the people here is not
    giving customer feedback.

    > Or maybe I'll try them and
    > decide they're not for me. The long and short of it is that we settle
    > for what works best for us, but doing so doesn't mean we abdicate the
    > right point out the flaws.
    >
    >
    >> Open source is wide open for innovation, but too often we settle to wait
    >> and let others do it for us. Or people just start asuming things,
    >> instead of knowing.

    >
    > Yup. We wait for things to get fixed by people that know how to fix
    > them. When my pipes burst I wait for the plumber. When my car breaks I
    > wait for the mechanic to fix it. Why should my computer be any different?


    So when you pipes burst, you just go and sit and wait for the plumber?
    Or are you call them first and then wait? Bugzilla (and the
    mailinglists) is the phone. If nobody calls, nobody comes to your house
    to fix the plumbing.

    Bugzilla has other advantages. You can see how far they are with
    solving the problems and enhancements.

    > One would think from your defensiveness that you were responsible for
    > the update system.


    No, YOU are. I just hate it when people blow hot air and just asume
    things that are complete and utter lies.

    If you say that you do not like what they are doing, that is fine with
    me. However if you say (or imply) that they do nothing then I know that
    you are lying and can't even bother to do do any investigation yourself.
    No problem with that either, exept for the part where you insult hard
    working people.

    Have you even tried looking up what the development team is doing? And
    no, I am not going to point you in the right direction. I want to see
    wether you are seriously interested or just do the easy thing and blame
    everything on other people and keep telling that the grapes are to sour.

    houghi
    --
    > Beware of he who would deny you access to information, <
    > for in his heart he dreams himself your master. <
    > Commissioner Pravin Lal: "U.N. Declaration of Rights" <


  3. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:
    > Kevin Miller wrote:
    >>>> Sure, but then how do you get notified of updates.
    >>> By email once they are done.

    >> Got a link?

    >
    > A link to what? The email is local and not very interesting to read.
    > It is the standard output from a cron command.


    I was thinking email notifications of updates/patches. So what cron job
    are you running to let you know there are patches available for download
    and installation? Or is it just the automatic update kicking in?


    >>>> Some repos are
    >>>> turned off on my system, such as the Nvidia one. Can't turn them all
    >>>> off though and still run a reasonably patched system. Or am I missing
    >>>> something?
    >>> Perhaps the fact that you do not do the updates automagicaly.

    >> Guess you could say I'm running semi-automatically. The updater in the
    >> kicker lets me know when there are updates but I install them manually.

    >
    > I would not call that semi-automatic.


    All I gotta do is click on 'install'. Pretty automatic after that.


    >> But even if I did automatic updates, the system would have to query the
    >> repos to realize there were updates to be had. If the repos are turned
    >> off, automatic update would never kick in. Or do I misunderstand you?

    >
    > The automatic launches and looks for the updates. Just as would, I
    > imagine, kicker. The advantage is that I do not care wether it takes 5
    > seconds or 5 hours.


    I suppose if I left my system on 24/7 it wouldn't matter. They could
    download at midnight. I don't leave it on all the time though. If I'm
    using it there are times I don't want to compete for the bandwidth.
    When I want to update it's nice to have an efficient mechanism for doing
    so.


    >>>> I don't know whether it's a problem or not. But it is an annoyance and
    >>>> I know it could be better.
    >>> Then by all means give the solution to the developers and/or give us the
    >>> bugnumber that you opend and where you are working with the developers
    >>> on a solution.

    >> That's a tired old canard. It implies that anybody using open source is
    >> qualified, interested, or has the time/inclination to be a hacker.

    >
    > No, _YOU_ said that you know that it is possible. That implies that
    > _YOU_ know how to solve it.


    That's a non-sequitur houghi. Knowing something is possible in no way
    implies one knows how it's done. I know planes fly but you wouldn't
    want to ride in one I designed! I say I know it can be better because
    apt does it better. SUSE 10.0 did it better. As Chris has pointed out,
    8.something or another did it better. The installation, update and
    quality of the .rpms has gone down hill in several cases. That implies
    it was better in the past. It doesn't imply *I* know what they were
    doing differently.


    >> I mentioned two approaches: apt, which is a proven technology, and
    >> something based on a DNS type approach. I don't know if anybody is
    >> exploring the latter but it does wonders with RBLs, SPF, etc. Not to
    >> mention, um, DNS.

    >
    > Great and where can I read about your input on bugzilla? Even mentioning
    > (perhaps a bit more in detail) on how you imagine this to be working.
    > The APT stuff I get and I am sure that nobody ever thought of it to do
    > it that way. I just have no idea what you might mean with the DNS stuff.


    Research SPF - it uses text entries in DNS to list authorized email
    servers. Something similar could possibly be done by having an
    equivalent to an A record, or TXT record. The system could do a 'zone
    transfer' to pull down the whole list of software and do a diff against
    a locally stored list perhaps, or a line by line query maybe. That is,
    my system has a list of installed packages and it just does a lookup of
    the current revision. If the master file has a serial number like DNS
    it could look at that and see whether or not any new updates have even
    been released. In an instant one could compare the revision level of
    the repos to what I've already downloaded.

    I just know on my Debian system I enter 'apt-get update' an 15 to 20
    seconds later the list is updated. Refreshing the repos on 10.3 takes
    several minutes. 10.0 was slower than Debian, but still leaps and
    bounds ahead of 10.3.

    > And no, you do not have to be a hacker or even able to write code to
    > give feedback on Bugzilla.


    As a matter of fact, last night I reported the timidity problem on
    Bugzilla. And while you don't have to be a hacker or coder to do so, it
    was a convoluted process. Had to create an ID. OK, no biggie. Entered
    a username, and password, then logged in. Got to some bugzilla page
    that said I had to validate my new account. EVERY other account I've
    ever created via the web emailed me a 'reply to this to activate your
    acount' message. But not the Novell/SUSE bugzilla system. I had to go
    track down the right web page, and request that the system email me an
    invitation to activate the account. That is totally convoluted. Why
    don't people participate more? Maybe because of the roadblocks they
    encounter. I can't blame them for saying 'screw it' half way through.


    >>>> This 'good enough for the girls we go with' attitude puts us not far
    >>>> from the Microsoft camp IMHO. Open source is wide open for innovation
    >>>> but too often we settle for much less...
    >>> What 'we' settle for is what 'we' want. You say you know it could be
    >>> better. That means you have the solution. Why do you not share that
    >>> solution with the development team.

    >> I've never met anyone one the development team.

    >
    > I did, but that is irrelevant. Bugzilla is the tool.


    In some cases. Timidity for example. But what about my problem with
    audacity segfaulting if alsa is running? Nobody else seems to have that
    trouble, and there's nothing in the logs. So I should enter a bug that
    the developers can't reproduce and that I can't document?


    >> Nor do I have the development background to seriously contribute to
    >> it.

    >
    > Sure you have. You use openSUSE and that is qualification enough. If
    > only developers would ask for things or even test the software, you
    > would get something completely different.
    >
    >> I presume that the development teams participates in the 'greater SUSE
    >> community' to some degree, i.e., they keep their ears to the ground to
    >> get a sense of how things are working out. But maybe they don't.

    >
    > Sure they do. They look at what that community brings into Bugzilla. If
    > it isn't in Bugzalla it isn't a problem. Then there are many, many
    > openSUSE mailinglists that they will read.


    Bugzilla is hardly the haunt of normal users. It's a geek tool and
    if you're basing the experience of the average joe on what's in it,
    you're only scratching the tip of the iceberg. As for mailing lists,
    "Many many" is the operative word, and spare time is a rare commodity.
    Here's a quote from http://en.opensuse.org/Communicate: "Please note
    that the support mailing list is very active and can send you over 100
    emails per day!" Sorry. I'm just not up to wading through 100 more
    emails a day.


    >> Maybe they have their own little list server or forums and don't care
    >> what the experience is like for us mere mortals. That would explain a
    >> lot.

    >
    > That is just stupid and almost trolling and you know it. If you, as mere
    > mortal, would just step down your ivory tower and just look for a few
    > moments on the openSUSE mailinglists what is going on, join an IRC
    > meeting (perhaps just lurking) and what not, you would know that you are
    > absolutely and completely misinformed.


    Ivory tower? Hardly. More like a broke hitchhiker on the information
    superhighway.

    >> I've always liked SUSE. For the most part it's what I want. There are
    >> enough things goofy in 10.3 however that make me inclined to try other
    >> distros. Maybe they do it better.

    >
    > Great. That is what choice is about
    >
    >> So far I'm not wild about Debian (except for apt - it works a treat).
    >> But maybe Ubuntu will work, I dunno. They seem to be listening to
    >> consumer feedback at any rate, judging from their widespread adoption.

    >
    > And again I am asking you what customer feedback have you given to
    > openSUSE that they have ignored? And no, telling the people here is not
    > giving customer feedback.


    Maybe if they made it easier to give feedback more folks would. Most of
    us want to use our computers, not build them.

    > Bugzilla has other advantages. You can see how far they are with
    > solving the problems and enhancements.


    Yes, that is an advantage of using it.


    > If you say that you do not like what they are doing, that is fine with
    > me. However if you say (or imply) that they do nothing then I know that
    > you are lying and can't even bother to do do any investigation yourself.
    > No problem with that either, except for the part where you insult hard
    > working people.


    The former. I'm saying that they did better in the past and I don't
    like what they've done lately. I stayed on 10.0 until it was out of
    support because of the pain they introduced with red carpet stuff. I
    know they work hard - I never said they do nothing. And I don't lie. I
    may make mistakes. But that's different.


    > Have you even tried looking up what the development team is doing? And
    > no, I am not going to point you in the right direction. I want to see
    > wether you are seriously interested or just do the easy thing and blame
    > everything on other people and keep telling that the grapes are to sour.


    My computer is just a tool. When I go out in my woodshop, I expect my
    tools to perform a particular task. I don't re-engineer my tablesaw or
    router, or whatever. In the past I've bought cheap tools. I don't
    hesitate to say they were junk. I just replace them with better tools
    the next time. I expect a certain level of quality in the software I
    use. If it's not there I'll say so. But it's just software. I'm not
    going to make it my life's crusade to fix it. My hats of to those that
    do, but I have other interests...

    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  4. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:

    >> Research SPF - it uses text entries in DNS to list authorized email
    >> servers. *Something similar could possibly be done by having an
    >> equivalent to an A record, or TXT record. *The system could do a 'zone
    >> transfer' to pull down the whole list of software and do a diff against
    >> a locally stored list perhaps, or a line by line query maybe. *That is,
    >> my system has a list of installed packages and it just does a lookup of
    >> the current revision. *If the master file has a serial number like DNS
    >> it could look at that and see whether or not any new updates have even
    >> been released. *In an instant one could compare the revision level of
    >> the repos to what I've already downloaded.

    >
    > Great idea. So what did the developers make of this idea?
    >


    I guess it works that way right now. It checks is there any change, if yes
    downloads file, if no changes it exits.

    The only current problem for me is long introduction of checking database
    cache, each time one is using zypper, but developers know about that, so
    nothing to report.

    --
    Regards, Rajko.
    See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal

  5. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:

    > The thing still is that the database
    > that needs to be checked is huge. Also the amount of programs to choose
    > from is a bit exploded. :-D


    That is another thing that one talking about Software management being slow
    should have in mind.

    I know that if I have only official oss, non-oss, and update repositories
    enabled, where only update has to be refreshed, management runs very fast,
    but as soon as I enable Build Service and external repositories everything
    looks lesser rosy. Each of additional repositories must be refreshed and
    that takes time.

    Currently I is set zypper to refresh after 60 minutes
    in /etc/zypp/zypper.conf though it was reset to default 10 minutes with
    last zypper update :-)

    > Obviously there are other things that need to be considerd to keep
    > things working as expected.


    I can't really follow discussions on yast-devel@opensuse.org and
    zypp-devel@opensuse.org, but it seems that they are very busy on new
    solutions that will handle multiple repositories faster, automatically.

    Now, one has to type:
    zypper install -r
    to refresh only one repository.

    --
    Regards, Rajko.
    See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal

  6. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Rajko M. wrote:

    > Currently it is set to refresh after 60 minutes
    > in /etc/zypp/zypper.conf though it was reset to default 10 minutes with
    > last zypper update :-)
    >


    Sorry for this, it was me, booting a different system that wasn't set to 60
    minutes before.

    --
    Regards, Rajko.
    See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal

  7. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:

    >


    Been there, done that.

    > Then what are you doing here? ;-)


    Mostly beating my head against a brick wall. You? ;-)


    > Have you even looked at the archive to see wether or not it is hard
    > or easy to get some things done.


    Wasn't aware of those archives until yesterday. Short answer, no.


    > What I do when I want to go and discuss things is I post my question
    > and then read the replies. I then do not care about what the other
    > things say.


    Not all of us have the time or desire to scan through 100 messages a day.


    > And what you do instead of sticking out your thumb is sit down and
    > wait for somebody to pick you up. Even hichhikers need to be
    > pro-active to get somewhere.


    Yeah, but they don't have to pay for gas and insurance. It's all a
    question of economics. People pay (one way or another) what they're
    willing to accomplish a goal. How much effort one is willing to expend
    in getting something fixed is relative to the perceived value of having
    it fixed.


    >> Maybe if they made it easier to give feedback more folks would.
    >> Most of us want to use our computers, not build them.

    >
    > Oh, it is not that ard to give feedback.


    Maybe not, but it's harder than I think it needs to be. I don't need
    another hobby.

    > And again, if they do not know that you do not like it, they do not
    > know. No feedback, no changes.


    And as Rajko pointed out, they know. I'm sure Chris and I aren't the
    only ones that noticed updates are much slower than they used to be. So
    my joining in the chorus would really only amount to one more person
    something is suboptimal w/o offering a specific solution.

    Maybe that's valuable to them or maybe it's not. I know from reading
    here though that people have been complaining about it for the last
    several releases. I think it's a pretty safe bet that somewhere along
    the line they caught wind of it.

    You mentioned that it took you up to two years to get some things in
    openSUSE. I'm not interested in that level of involvement. Just
    because I'm not doesn't mean I have to give up my right to express my
    opinion.

    > Great, so move on, or give feedback to the people where it belongs.
    > Inmplying here that the people do not do a good job is extremely
    > disrespectfull of those people.


    No it's not. It's simply one guy saying it could be better. Linux
    isn't my religion, the developers aren't my priests and saying something
    is broken or sub-optimal in public isn't blasphemy. It's all just zeros
    and ones. Nothing I'm losing any sleep over. YMMV...


    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  8. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Rajko M. wrote:

    >
    > I guess it works that way right now. It checks is there any change, if yes
    > downloads file, if no changes it exits.


    Well, sort of. There was an update tonight. I watched as the little
    green icon spun, checking for updates. After it checked, it found one.
    I clicked on it to accept the update and it goes out and refreshes all
    the repos again not 30 seconds after it figured out there was an update
    to install. Very much a 'Dept. of Redundancy Dept.' sort of thing.

    And, of course, if I go into YaST/Software Management it does it all
    over again.


    > The only current problem for me is long introduction of checking database
    > cache, each time one is using zypper, but developers know about that, so
    > nothing to report.


    Exactly...

    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  9. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:

    >
    > I know. I just wanted to see if it was just moaning or if there was some
    > real interest in anything. I guess it was just moaning. :-/


    Troublemaker! ;-)

    I have many interests. More than I have time for...

    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  10. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Kevin Miller wrote:
    > houghi wrote:
    >> That I would not call 'automatic'. I would not even call that
    >> semi-automatic. As far as I can tell, you decide on each package.

    >
    > Sure, but I don't have to search for them. The system lets me know when
    > there's a new package. If they're small I can kick them off and not be
    > impacted. If it's something like a kernel update I can put it off and
    > not burn up my bandwidth.


    I do not update my kernel automagicaly. I do not update anything that
    needs my attention. I will read it when I get the mail that it wasn't
    updated and then, once a month, do it.

    > Updates do pretty much run in the background. But they consume
    > bandwidth. The load on my system may be minimal, even at the same time
    > the load on my connection is maxed out.


    Isn't that a bit stating the obvious?

    > It's also nice to be able to hold off on an update too. You may or may
    > not remember a couple months ago, but the java update was completely
    > borked.


    No, I do not remember. I do daily updates and I did not notice anything.

    > Unfortunately I installed it before anybody complained.
    > /etc/alternatives was full of broken sym links, and it took me several
    > hours to manually fix them. I wish I'd read here that the java update
    > was broken - it would have saved me a lot of trouble.


    Which it would never have been send out.

    > Although I still got bit, at least with manual update selection one has
    > the chance of preventing such problems.


    Then you would have known that the update was borked? I doubt that. I
    think you would just have clicked OK and had the identical problem.

    > You've been here long enough to know it's not the first bad update
    > either. I'm sure every distribution has them now and again - I'm not
    > picking on SUSE developers and packagers here.


    I have heard about other bad updates. I have never experienced any of
    them as far as I can recall.

    > Not at a technical level. At a very superficial level I think it is due
    > ot the merging of the red carpet mechanism with the historical mechanism
    > in YaST/YOU.


    I think it is because the moon is in the Seventh House and Jupiyer
    aligns with Mars.

    > You hit the nail on the head. I want it to 'just work'. I don't think
    > that's unreasonable.


    No, it isn't.

    >> OTOH if they hear nothing and get no feedback, they know that they are
    >> on the right track and will continue that way.

    >
    > Yeah, kind of a catch-22 isn't it.


    Nope. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catch-22_(logic) You give feedback
    end of story.

    > Sure - we all have different needs and expectations. I'm all for new
    > features and programs as well. Otherwise we'd all still be on 8.


    Hey, that was faster.

    >> Great idea. So what did the developers make of this idea?

    >
    > Beats me.


    So the time you take to eleborate here is better then taking that same
    amount of time and give feedback to the developers? Wow.

    > As Rajko mentioned on messages further down the thread, they're aware of
    > it and working on it. You might not have a problem with it. That's not
    > a reason that those of us here that do shouldn't mention it.


    It is also no reason to give feedback to the developers.

    > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=353816


    Seee how they listen and work when you give feedback?

    > Perhaps not. It is sufficiently enough of a hassle that it isn't
    > readily convenient and that is off-putting to the average user.


    I am the average user as well.

    > I went to the trouble because I want to see timidity fixed.


    So you do not want the speed problem you experiecne to be fixed?

    > If the developers
    > really want feedback from the great unwashed masses it has to be simple
    > and convenient. Sort of like what Dell did with their ideastorm. They
    > got lots of feedback really fast.


    Tell them. (Now THAT is a Catch 22)

    >> What do you loose by reporting the bug?

    >
    > Fair enough. Since I've already gone through the trouble of signing up
    > it isn't that much of a stretch to open another case.


    W00T!. :-D

    houghi
    --
    If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and
    Gomorrah an apology.

  11. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Kevin Miller wrote:
    >> What I do when I want to go and discuss things is I post my question
    >> and then read the replies. I then do not care about what the other
    >> things say.

    >
    > Not all of us have the time or desire to scan through 100 messages a day.


    Neither do I. I use a filter for that or I read the subject and
    determine wether it is interesting or not.

    > Yeah, but they don't have to pay for gas and insurance. It's all a
    > question of economics. People pay (one way or another) what they're
    > willing to accomplish a goal. How much effort one is willing to expend
    > in getting something fixed is relative to the perceived value of having
    > it fixed.


    So you do not realy want the speed fixed?

    > Maybe not, but it's harder than I think it needs to be. I don't need
    > another hobby.


    Could it be easier? Probably. Is it hard? No.

    > And as Rajko pointed out, they know. I'm sure Chris and I aren't the
    > only ones that noticed updates are much slower than they used to be. So
    > my joining in the chorus would really only amount to one more person
    > something is suboptimal w/o offering a specific solution.


    The larger the chorous, the higher the priority.

    > Maybe that's valuable to them or maybe it's not. I know from reading
    > here though that people have been complaining about it for the last
    > several releases. I think it's a pretty safe bet that somewhere along
    > the line they caught wind of it.


    Yeah.

    > You mentioned that it took you up to two years to get some things in
    > openSUSE. I'm not interested in that level of involvement. Just
    > because I'm not doesn't mean I have to give up my right to express my
    > opinion.


    What involvement? The involvement on my side was not more then what you
    did in your bugreport. I think I have put more efford in this one
    posting then in the item to get a red root in CLI.


    houghi
    --
    If God doesn't destroy Hollywood Boulevard, he owes Sodom and
    Gomorrah an apology.

  12. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:


    > I do not update my kernel automagicaly. I do not update anything that
    > needs my attention. I will read it when I get the mail that it wasn't
    > updated and then, once a month, do it.


    Guess I'm still not clear on exactly what mechanism you're using here.
    Is this a script that you wrote or configuration options w/in the
    auto-update YaST module?


    >> Updates do pretty much run in the background. But they consume
    >> bandwidth. The load on my system may be minimal, even at the same time
    >> the load on my connection is maxed out.

    >
    > Isn't that a bit stating the obvious?


    Well sure. But folks w/bandwidth to burn don't care so if a big patch
    is coming done the wire they don't notice much of an inmpact. I, on the
    other hand, have a bottom end DSL connection shared w/my family. An OOo
    update combined with youtube just about kills any kind of response rate.
    On the other hand, it does give one time to go to the kitchen and get a
    beer. ;-)


    >> It's also nice to be able to hold off on an update too. You may or may
    >> not remember a couple months ago, but the java update was completely
    >> borked.

    >
    > No, I do not remember. I do daily updates and I did not notice anything.


    Lucky you. It's in bugzilla if you're mildly interested.


    >> Unfortunately I installed it before anybody complained.
    >> /etc/alternatives was full of broken sym links, and it took me several
    >> hours to manually fix them. I wish I'd read here that the java update
    >> was broken - it would have saved me a lot of trouble.

    >
    > Which it would never have been send out.


    Maybe not sent out, but I think it was commented on here. If not, then
    in the opensuse nntp groups - I know I read of others being bitten.


    >> Although I still got bit, at least with manual update selection one has
    >> the chance of preventing such problems.

    >
    > Then you would have known that the update was borked? I doubt that. I
    > think you would just have clicked OK and had the identical problem.


    Sometimes you beat the reaper, sometimes you don't.


    > So the time you take to eleborate here is better then taking that same
    > amount of time and give feedback to the developers? Wow.


    LOL. When one jumps into one of these threads, rarely does one expect
    it to turn into something rivaling Dostoevsky. Sigh. :-)


    >> As Rajko mentioned on messages further down the thread, they're aware of
    >> it and working on it. You might not have a problem with it. That's not
    >> a reason that those of us here that do shouldn't mention it.

    >
    > It is also no reason to give feedback to the developers.


    I dunno - it's a fine line between useful input and background noise, me
    thinks.


    >> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=353816

    >
    > Seee how they listen and work when you give feedback?


    Sure. Still not fixed yet, but there's a guy looking into it.


    >> Perhaps not. It is sufficiently enough of a hassle that it isn't
    >> readily convenient and that is off-putting to the average user.

    >
    > I am the average user as well.
    >
    >> I went to the trouble because I want to see timidity fixed.

    >
    > So you do not want the speed problem you experiecne to be fixed?


    Of course, but you and I both know (and have known all along that it's
    an issue that they're aware of. But let me ask you this in all
    seriousness - how does one report that. The Timidity problem was easy -
    specific program and symptoms I could demonstrate. But what sort of bug
    report does one open for updating. I mean, one can't just get on and
    say 'um guys, updating sucks. It's way slower than apt or even 10.0.
    Fix it.'

    What kind of feedback is actually helpful to them in that situation from
    a guy that's willing to invest 5 or 10 minutes here or there but doesn't
    want to make it his life's crusade? I'm looking for specific
    constructive guidance here, not just demagoguery and pontificating.


    >>> What do you loose by reporting the bug?

    >> Fair enough. Since I've already gone through the trouble of signing up
    >> it isn't that much of a stretch to open another case.

    >
    > W00T!. :-D


    Sadly, they closed the ticket with a WONTFIX. Not surprised. They
    noted that I got the download from packman and blamed it on audacity.
    So back to square one. Maybe my install is just borked. I dunno. Or
    maybe it's something I installed somewhere along the line. Or maybe
    it's my hardware or??? Hard to say. As it stands I can't use it and
    don't have any method/guidence for fixing it. Bummer...


    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  13. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Kevin Miller wrote:
    > houghi wrote:
    >
    >
    >> I do not update my kernel automagicaly. I do not update anything that
    >> needs my attention. I will read it when I get the mail that it wasn't
    >> updated and then, once a month, do it.

    >
    > Guess I'm still not clear on exactly what mechanism you're using here.
    > Is this a script that you wrote or configuration options w/in the
    > auto-update YaST module?


    Standard YaST update module

    > Well sure. But folks w/bandwidth to burn don't care so if a big patch
    > is coming done the wire they don't notice much of an inmpact. I, on the
    > other hand, have a bottom end DSL connection shared w/my family. An OOo
    > update combined with youtube just about kills any kind of response rate.
    > On the other hand, it does give one time to go to the kitchen and get a
    > beer. ;-)


    So how do you know how large the updates are? Also I can imagine
    (although I have no idea how to do it) that you can do QOS so it leaves
    enough bandwith to be able to see your_tube. Downside will be that it
    will become slower.

    >> Then you would have known that the update was borked? I doubt that. I
    >> think you would just have clicked OK and had the identical problem.

    >
    > Sometimes you beat the reaper, sometimes you don't.


    So how often have you avoided updating malicious updates by doing it
    manually? What are the updates you do NOT update? My guestimate on
    answering that would be 'no bad updates were avoided' and 'I do not
    update the kernel all the time'. And that is exacly what I do ass well
    automagicaly. ;-)

    > LOL. When one jumps into one of these threads, rarely does one expect
    > it to turn into something rivaling Dostoevsky. Sigh. :-)


    Kafka will be so proud of us. :-D

    >> It is also no reason to give feedback to the developers.

    >
    > I dunno - it's a fine line between useful input and background noise, me
    > thinks.


    It is up to the developers to make that difference and they have stated
    that they ather have a lot of background noice then miss one bug. Just
    after openSUSE.org started they had 3 times as many bugreports and they
    were happy about it. As long as you can produce a reasonable bugreport,
    they will be happy. Oalso if you have a bugreport stating just "It does
    not work" or "OPENsuse sucks" it will be closed fastere then it to the
    electrons to send over that message.

    However if you are a serious heavy bugzilla user you can use
    http://almworks.com/deskzilla/overview.html Unfortunatly not OSS and not
    free. I do not use it, but it might be handy for others.

    >
    >
    >>> https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=353816

    >>
    >> Seee how they listen and work when you give feedback?

    >
    > Sure. Still not fixed yet, but there's a guy looking into it.
    >
    >
    >>> Perhaps not. It is sufficiently enough of a hassle that it isn't
    >>> readily convenient and that is off-putting to the average user.

    >>
    >> I am the average user as well.
    >>
    >>> I went to the trouble because I want to see timidity fixed.

    >>
    >> So you do not want the speed problem you experiecne to be fixed?

    >
    > Of course, but you and I both know (and have known all along that it's
    > an issue that they're aware of. But let me ask you this in all
    > seriousness - how does one report that. The Timidity problem was easy -
    > specific program and symptoms I could demonstrate. But what sort of bug
    > report does one open for updating. I mean, one can't just get on and
    > say 'um guys, updating sucks. It's way slower than apt or even 10.0.
    > Fix it.'
    >
    > What kind of feedback is actually helpful to them in that situation from
    > a guy that's willing to invest 5 or 10 minutes here or there but doesn't
    > want to make it his life's crusade? I'm looking for specific
    > constructive guidance here, not just demagoguery and pontificating.
    >
    >
    >>>> What do you loose by reporting the bug?
    >>> Fair enough. Since I've already gone through the trouble of signing up
    >>> it isn't that much of a stretch to open another case.

    >>
    >> W00T!. :-D

    >
    > Sadly, they closed the ticket with a WONTFIX. Not surprised. They
    > noted that I got the download from packman and blamed it on audacity.
    > So back to square one. Maybe my install is just borked. I dunno. Or
    > maybe it's something I installed somewhere along the line. Or maybe
    > it's my hardware or??? Hard to say. As it stands I can't use it and
    > don't have any method/guidence for fixing it. Bummer...
    >
    >
    > ...Kevin



    houghi
    --
    I do not want life insurance.
    I want all people to be genuinely grieving when I die.

    houghi

  14. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    houghi wrote:

    > Updates are diff files which means it does not download all of the
    > kernel or OpenOffice.org, but just what it needs.


    Yeah, mostly. But I've still pulled down such updates that took 10 to
    15 minutes to download at 320 kb/s.


    >> Rightfully so - it just makes it a bit trickier to post about something
    >> that isn't a bug per se, but just a lousy 'feature' or response rate
    >> like slow and redundant repository refresh rates.

    >
    > Not true. The red in bash as root is a feature and was done via
    > Bugzilla.


    That's a pretty easy fix, and probably didn't step on anybodies toes to
    implement. Doubt anybody had much of their ego invested in it.
    Something like YaST or zypper on the other hand is a complex piece of
    work and one has to be a bit more politic in their approach, or as you
    noted their suggestion will be plonked in quick order.


    > You can always download the DVD. Sure there will be people who do not
    > have a DVD and do not have the 20EUR for a DVD ROM or the 30EUR for a
    > re-writer.


    This is true - I should kick one off at work next weekend. Schedule a
    cron job to run a 2 am Saturday and burn it Monday. Good idea.


    >> The other problem, audacity segfaulting was really easy to fix but not
    >> to solve: (https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=354349)
    >>
    >> As I mentioned, they closed it as a WONTFIX because the package was from
    >> packman and appeared to be a problem with audacity. It wasn't.


    Hmmm. Maybe I'll reopen it, if only for the purpose of letting them
    know. I assumed that adding my comment would send an email to the guy
    working on it. At any rate, someone searching bugzilla will see the
    comment.


    > Does it have the same problem when using the one provided by openSUSE?
    > If so, then it means that it is a generic problem. If not it still might
    > be an audacity problem or even a packman problem.


    RPM Source and version didn't matter. In the end I upgraded both alsa
    and audacity from multimedia, not packman but that didn't make any
    difference.


    >> So all in all, the developers indirectly put me on the right track for
    >> fixing timidity although didn't actually provide me with the fix, and
    >> haven't yet committed a fix in bugzilla, and weren't able to give me any
    >> guidance on the audacity fix. But at least they know about it now and
    >> that may help someone else down the line.

    >
    > As it is written ass WONTFIX, they won't be looking into it anymore.


    Timidity is still open - just the audacity problem was set to WONTFIX.

    >> Since bugzilla pages don't show up in google, etc. I expect if anyone is
    >> helped the likelihood is they'll read it here than there. But maybe in
    >> 11.0 the developers won't make the same mistakes. We'll see...

    >
    > As they said it to WONTFIX and as it was from a different source then
    > openSUSE I doubt that they will do anything with it.


    That's a shame...

    ....Kevin
    --
    Kevin Miller
    http://www.alaska.net/~atftb
    Juneau, Alaska
    Registered Linux User No: 307357

  15. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Kevin Miller wrote:

    .....
    >> As they said it to WONTFIX and as it was from a different source then
    >> openSUSE I doubt that they will do anything with it.

    >
    > That's a shame...


    Why Kevin?

    Many of openSUSE developers fix the bugs only as a part of their job, not
    hobby. There are projects where some of them are involved on their time and
    that is where they take care of bugs anyway.

    WONTFIX in this case means that no one is involved with 'audacity' and what
    they fix in such case are only opensuse packaging problems. For the package
    that comes from Packman that is third party they can't use company time, as
    you can imagine ;-).

    --
    Regards, Rajko.
    See http://en.opensuse.org/Portal

  16. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Kevin Miller wrote:
    > Yeah, mostly. But I've still pulled down such updates that took 10 to
    > 15 minutes to download at 320 kb/s.


    If that is what it needs, then that is what it downloads.

    >>> Rightfully so - it just makes it a bit trickier to post about something
    >>> that isn't a bug per se, but just a lousy 'feature' or response rate
    >>> like slow and redundant repository refresh rates.

    >>
    >> Not true. The red in bash as root is a feature and was done via
    >> Bugzilla.

    >
    > That's a pretty easy fix, and probably didn't step on anybodies toes to
    > implement. Doubt anybody had much of their ego invested in it.


    Compared to the implementation, it was a pretty hard struggle that stept
    on more toes then one would expect.

    > Something like YaST or zypper on the other hand is a complex piece of
    > work and one has to be a bit more politic in their approach, or as you
    > noted their suggestion will be plonked in quick order.


    This depends on what the enhancement is and how the question is asked.
    However it does not make it 'trickier' to post something that isn't a
    bug. Just saying 'it doesn't work' or 'it needs to be faster' will most
    likely be shot down and rightfully so.

    Sometimes however very strange ideas might evolve into something
    completely different, yet something that will work. Also sometimes some
    things are easier to implement then you would think.

    e.g. the seperation of / and /home and how that is devided. That
    discusion was done on the mailinglist, because I thought that it would
    give a HUGE discusion. It didn't. Also the discusion on how large each
    partition was going to be was much easier then expected.

    So the conclusion is: A 'no' is for certain, a 'yes' is a possability.

    > RPM Source and version didn't matter. In the end I upgraded both alsa
    > and audacity from multimedia, not packman but that didn't make any
    > difference.


    Then that should be a reason to re-open it, although I would first try
    the solution (using the factory) to see if that helps. If not, then it
    might be something different. Just be sure that you do not use the
    Packman things, otherwise you might be trying a problem that can not be
    re-produced.

    >> As they said it to WONTFIX and as it was from a different source then
    >> openSUSE I doubt that they will do anything with it.

    >
    > That's a shame...


    They are only human and can only do so much in a certain time. That is
    what Alpha and Beta is for, so others can look it up. So perhaps
    somebody running Alpha for 11.0 can try it out and see if they have the
    same issue.

    houghi
    --
    Let's not be too tough on our own ignorance. It's the thing that makes
    America great. If America weren't incomparably ignorant, how could we
    have tolerated the last eight years? -- Frank Zappa, in 1988

  17. Re: Repository 'openSUSE-10.3-Updates' is invalid

    Rajko M. wrote:
    > WONTFIX in this case means that no one is involved with 'audacity' and what
    > they fix in such case are only opensuse packaging problems. For the package
    > that comes from Packman that is third party they can't use company time, as
    > you can imagine ;-).


    The best would be to then file the bug with Packman.

    houghi
    --
    Let's not be too tough on our own ignorance. It's the thing that makes
    America great. If America weren't incomparably ignorant, how could we
    have tolerated the last eight years? -- Frank Zappa, in 1988

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