Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions - Suse

This is a discussion on Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions - Suse ; As soon as the GM images became available an the main host, I began a clean, default, evaluation install of openSUSE 10.3 KDE CD. Here are my very initial, very brief results from the first and second clean install trials: ...

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Thread: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

  1. Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    As soon as the GM images became available an the main host, I began a
    clean, default, evaluation install of openSUSE 10.3 KDE CD. Here are my
    very initial, very brief results from the first and second clean install
    trials:

    INSTALLING

    Download was very fast. This surprised me as I was expecting the main
    download.opensuse site to be overloaded on October 4th.

    Default install - same problems as before (with 10.2). On 6-month old,
    vanilla HP DC7700 workstations, the install black-screens after choosing
    the default option. You must choose the no DCPI option.

    Installation process - much nicer and much faster. Gone is that LONG
    delay every time you make changes on the installation overview screen!
    Thank you. Choices are clear, flexible and intuitive, although you
    still should know what you are doing as some important choices can be
    easily missed if you don't peek behind every [Advanced Options] button.
    And as some of the release notes pertain to the installation process,
    it might have been nice to find those out before the process completes.
    I also liked the way you can choose you online repositories during the
    install (as in 10.2) and not have to download the DVD to get more of
    what you want done on the first pass. And yes, even the DVD download
    went very fast, for me.

    Online Repositories - however, I made the mistake of choosing these with
    my trial (OSS and NON-OSS). Big mistake. An hour later, the "time
    remaining" was still climbing, to over 8 hours now, when I aborted the
    install and lost a bootable system (with other operating systems on it).
    The system was left in a state that wouldn't even reboot from a CD
    (can't explain that one). I eventually recovered by physically hitting
    F10 on the boot process and manually selecting the "Boot from CD"
    option. After that, and a grub recovery - all back to normal.

    Second installation process (no online repositories) - just installing
    from the KDE CD and taking all the defaults was pretty effortless. And
    while this may really be the best openSUSE release, with the best
    installer, there wasn't very much actually different, in the end, from
    the prior 2 releases:

    THE GOOD

    I am still amazed that they have a built-in 3rd party repository tool!
    Even more incredible are the actual repositories they setup for you.
    Only thing is, they still "keep silent" about what you are supposed to
    do with them. Instead, they hype how you can get MP3 support (but not
    much else) with a new service arrangement - but you have to go to more
    trouble to install it (maybe I missed something) than if you just do
    what we all know how to do. I have not evaluated anything concerning
    3rd party software on this first pass, concentrating only on what new
    users will see by default.

    THE BAD

    Sound support has seemed to move backwards over the 10s, at least for
    me, and while the graphics support has gotten marginally better (it now
    actually gets a serviceable GUI Desktop on this pretty standard machine
    (onboard Intel chipset and HP 1955 monitor) without as much work as
    before, it is still using VESA only and the screen is distorted
    (slightly stretched vertically). Sticking with the default
    administrative tools (read, GUI), I've found they accept settings,
    report setting (like 3D enabled), and yet these have little or no effect
    actually changing much on my system. The installer's initial setting
    put my graphics card out of the monitors range, putting the monitor to
    sleep. I finally got a serviceable setting, but the tools didn't agree
    on whether or not 3D was enabled (it wasn't) or what my screen
    resolution and refresh rate were (the actual effects didn't match the
    reported settings). Sound may not be working at all (I have to
    investigate this further).

    The networked HP LaserJet 4200n printer still isn't detected, and has to
    be manually configured.

    CONCLUSION

    While the only real trouble remains the video card and monitor (standard
    onboard Intel), and it did get better, I remain disappointed about
    hardware detection and configuration improvements. Other, older
    distributions fly through all of these on the same system and setup
    everything effortlessly and perfectly. Ubuntu 7.04 grabbed the nearest
    networked printer without any intervention and made even more distant
    ones available with a one-click selection from a list it built. It got
    the video and sound just right without any necessary alterations on my
    part. Novell is supposed to have the so-called "advantage" of a
    certain, notorious "technology" agreement - but I see no evidence that
    they are even keeping up with the competition, let alone surpassing them.

    Instead of "indemnity" for SLED users, I was hoping for working ooXML
    filters and an Evolution client that could talk to an Exchange 2007
    host. If those are not to be had, then so far, openSUSE has not
    surpassed the standard set by Ubuntu 7.04 except that, for a little
    while longer, they have a KDE system on first install that's more to my
    liking, but the clock is ticking on that and the train seems to be
    moving away from the station (where is the "All of KDE" option)?

    TO DO

    Now, with a working installation that is about as good and my 10.1 and
    10.2 systems (though with a little less work), I need to look at the
    sound server, see if I can tweak the graphics (at least to remove the
    distortions - we can't have any of that) and then look at the 3rd party
    software repositories.

    Is xinelib still corrupted? Will fixing it via 3rd party sites still
    confuse the updater? Is K3b still corrupted to prohibit MP3 support?
    I've notice that Firefox is no longer tied to Google, but typing
    "google" in the address bar still has the annoying effect of filling the
    initial search text-box with "google.com" forcing you to erase that
    pointlessness (I think this is a Firefox issue, not Novell's).

    Is Amarok now going to be corrupted due to the new "mp3" agreement, or
    will it still work the "old" way if I so choose? Finally, I'll test the
    wireless support and suspend options on recent model HP Laptops. Maybe
    even see what it supports on a Tablet.

  2. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    Usenet Reader wrote:
    > As soon as the GM images became available an the main host, I began a
    > clean, default, evaluation install of openSUSE 10.3 KDE CD. Here are my
    > very initial, very brief results from the first and second clean install
    > trials:
    >
    > INSTALLING
    >
    > Download was very fast. This surprised me as I was expecting the main
    > download.opensuse site to be overloaded on October 4th.
    >
    > Default install - same problems as before (with 10.2). On 6-month old,
    > vanilla HP DC7700 workstations, the install black-screens after choosing
    > the default option. You must choose the no DCPI option.
    >
    > Installation process - much nicer and much faster. Gone is that LONG
    > delay every time you make changes on the installation overview screen!
    > Thank you. Choices are clear, flexible and intuitive, although you
    > still should know what you are doing as some important choices can be
    > easily missed if you don't peek behind every [Advanced Options] button.
    > And as some of the release notes pertain to the installation process,
    > it might have been nice to find those out before the process completes.
    > I also liked the way you can choose you online repositories during the
    > install (as in 10.2) and not have to download the DVD to get more of
    > what you want done on the first pass. And yes, even the DVD download
    > went very fast, for me.
    >
    > Online Repositories - however, I made the mistake of choosing these with
    > my trial (OSS and NON-OSS). Big mistake. An hour later, the "time
    > remaining" was still climbing, to over 8 hours now, when I aborted the
    > install and lost a bootable system (with other operating systems on it).
    > The system was left in a state that wouldn't even reboot from a CD
    > (can't explain that one). I eventually recovered by physically hitting
    > F10 on the boot process and manually selecting the "Boot from CD"
    > option. After that, and a grub recovery - all back to normal.
    >
    > Second installation process (no online repositories) - just installing
    > from the KDE CD and taking all the defaults was pretty effortless. And
    > while this may really be the best openSUSE release, with the best
    > installer, there wasn't very much actually different, in the end, from
    > the prior 2 releases:
    >
    > THE GOOD
    >
    > I am still amazed that they have a built-in 3rd party repository tool!
    > Even more incredible are the actual repositories they setup for you.
    > Only thing is, they still "keep silent" about what you are supposed to
    > do with them. Instead, they hype how you can get MP3 support (but not
    > much else) with a new service arrangement - but you have to go to more
    > trouble to install it (maybe I missed something) than if you just do
    > what we all know how to do. I have not evaluated anything concerning
    > 3rd party software on this first pass, concentrating only on what new
    > users will see by default.
    >
    > THE BAD
    >
    > Sound support has seemed to move backwards over the 10s, at least for
    > me, and while the graphics support has gotten marginally better (it now
    > actually gets a serviceable GUI Desktop on this pretty standard machine
    > (onboard Intel chipset and HP 1955 monitor) without as much work as
    > before, it is still using VESA only and the screen is distorted
    > (slightly stretched vertically). Sticking with the default
    > administrative tools (read, GUI), I've found they accept settings,
    > report setting (like 3D enabled), and yet these have little or no effect
    > actually changing much on my system. The installer's initial setting
    > put my graphics card out of the monitors range, putting the monitor to
    > sleep. I finally got a serviceable setting, but the tools didn't agree
    > on whether or not 3D was enabled (it wasn't) or what my screen
    > resolution and refresh rate were (the actual effects didn't match the
    > reported settings). Sound may not be working at all (I have to
    > investigate this further).
    >
    > The networked HP LaserJet 4200n printer still isn't detected, and has to
    > be manually configured.
    >
    > CONCLUSION
    >
    > While the only real trouble remains the video card and monitor (standard
    > onboard Intel), and it did get better, I remain disappointed about
    > hardware detection and configuration improvements. Other, older
    > distributions fly through all of these on the same system and setup
    > everything effortlessly and perfectly. Ubuntu 7.04 grabbed the nearest
    > networked printer without any intervention and made even more distant
    > ones available with a one-click selection from a list it built. It got
    > the video and sound just right without any necessary alterations on my
    > part. Novell is supposed to have the so-called "advantage" of a
    > certain, notorious "technology" agreement - but I see no evidence that
    > they are even keeping up with the competition, let alone surpassing them.
    >
    > Instead of "indemnity" for SLED users, I was hoping for working ooXML
    > filters and an Evolution client that could talk to an Exchange 2007
    > host. If those are not to be had, then so far, openSUSE has not
    > surpassed the standard set by Ubuntu 7.04 except that, for a little
    > while longer, they have a KDE system on first install that's more to my
    > liking, but the clock is ticking on that and the train seems to be
    > moving away from the station (where is the "All of KDE" option)?
    >
    > TO DO
    >
    > Now, with a working installation that is about as good and my 10.1 and
    > 10.2 systems (though with a little less work), I need to look at the
    > sound server, see if I can tweak the graphics (at least to remove the
    > distortions - we can't have any of that) and then look at the 3rd party
    > software repositories.
    >
    > Is xinelib still corrupted? Will fixing it via 3rd party sites still
    > confuse the updater? Is K3b still corrupted to prohibit MP3 support?
    > I've notice that Firefox is no longer tied to Google, but typing
    > "google" in the address bar still has the annoying effect of filling the
    > initial search text-box with "google.com" forcing you to erase that
    > pointlessness (I think this is a Firefox issue, not Novell's).
    >
    > Is Amarok now going to be corrupted due to the new "mp3" agreement, or
    > will it still work the "old" way if I so choose? Finally, I'll test the
    > wireless support and suspend options on recent model HP Laptops. Maybe
    > even see what it supports on a Tablet.


    Good post.

    But personally I'm waiting till Suse 11 comes out. o.xx releases are
    usually patch ups imo.

    toe

    http:///www.vistaisrubbish.com




  3. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    Usenet Reader wrote:

    > Is xinelib still corrupted? *Will fixing it via 3rd party sites still
    > confuse the updater? *Is K3b still corrupted to prohibit MP3 support?


    do you understand opensource and restricted formats?
    http://opensuse-community.org/Restri...r_Applications

    libxine1
    k3b-codec
    libdvdcss
    --
    EOS
    www.photo-memories.be
    Running KDE 3.5.7 / openSUSE 10.3

  4. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    On Fri, 05 Oct 2007 22:38:50 +0000, toedipper wrote:

    > Usenet Reader wrote:
    >> As soon as the GM images became available an the main host, I began a
    >> clean, default, evaluation install of openSUSE 10.3 KDE CD. Here are my
    >> very initial, very brief results from the first and second clean install
    >> trials:
    >>
    >> INSTALLING
    >>
    >> Download was very fast. This surprised me as I was expecting the main
    >> download.opensuse site to be overloaded on October 4th.
    >>
    >> Default install - same problems as before (with 10.2). On 6-month old,
    >> vanilla HP DC7700 workstations, the install black-screens after choosing
    >> the default option. You must choose the no DCPI option.
    >>
    >> Installation process - much nicer and much faster. Gone is that LONG
    >> delay every time you make changes on the installation overview screen!
    >> Thank you. Choices are clear, flexible and intuitive, although you
    >> still should know what you are doing as some important choices can be
    >> easily missed if you don't peek behind every [Advanced Options] button.
    >> And as some of the release notes pertain to the installation process,
    >> it might have been nice to find those out before the process completes.
    >> I also liked the way you can choose you online repositories during the
    >> install (as in 10.2) and not have to download the DVD to get more of
    >> what you want done on the first pass. And yes, even the DVD download
    >> went very fast, for me.
    >>
    >> Online Repositories - however, I made the mistake of choosing these with
    >> my trial (OSS and NON-OSS). Big mistake. An hour later, the "time
    >> remaining" was still climbing, to over 8 hours now, when I aborted the
    >> install and lost a bootable system (with other operating systems on it).
    >> The system was left in a state that wouldn't even reboot from a CD
    >> (can't explain that one). I eventually recovered by physically hitting
    >> F10 on the boot process and manually selecting the "Boot from CD"
    >> option. After that, and a grub recovery - all back to normal.
    >>
    >> Second installation process (no online repositories) - just installing
    >> from the KDE CD and taking all the defaults was pretty effortless. And
    >> while this may really be the best openSUSE release, with the best
    >> installer, there wasn't very much actually different, in the end, from
    >> the prior 2 releases:
    >>
    >> THE GOOD
    >>
    >> I am still amazed that they have a built-in 3rd party repository tool!
    >> Even more incredible are the actual repositories they setup for you.
    >> Only thing is, they still "keep silent" about what you are supposed to
    >> do with them. Instead, they hype how you can get MP3 support (but not
    >> much else) with a new service arrangement - but you have to go to more
    >> trouble to install it (maybe I missed something) than if you just do
    >> what we all know how to do. I have not evaluated anything concerning
    >> 3rd party software on this first pass, concentrating only on what new
    >> users will see by default.
    >>
    >> THE BAD
    >>
    >> Sound support has seemed to move backwards over the 10s, at least for
    >> me, and while the graphics support has gotten marginally better (it now
    >> actually gets a serviceable GUI Desktop on this pretty standard machine
    >> (onboard Intel chipset and HP 1955 monitor) without as much work as
    >> before, it is still using VESA only and the screen is distorted
    >> (slightly stretched vertically). Sticking with the default
    >> administrative tools (read, GUI), I've found they accept settings,
    >> report setting (like 3D enabled), and yet these have little or no effect
    >> actually changing much on my system. The installer's initial setting
    >> put my graphics card out of the monitors range, putting the monitor to
    >> sleep. I finally got a serviceable setting, but the tools didn't agree
    >> on whether or not 3D was enabled (it wasn't) or what my screen
    >> resolution and refresh rate were (the actual effects didn't match the
    >> reported settings). Sound may not be working at all (I have to
    >> investigate this further).
    >>
    >> The networked HP LaserJet 4200n printer still isn't detected, and has to
    >> be manually configured.
    >>
    >> CONCLUSION
    >>
    >> While the only real trouble remains the video card and monitor (standard
    >> onboard Intel), and it did get better, I remain disappointed about
    >> hardware detection and configuration improvements. Other, older
    >> distributions fly through all of these on the same system and setup
    >> everything effortlessly and perfectly. Ubuntu 7.04 grabbed the nearest
    >> networked printer without any intervention and made even more distant
    >> ones available with a one-click selection from a list it built. It got
    >> the video and sound just right without any necessary alterations on my
    >> part. Novell is supposed to have the so-called "advantage" of a
    >> certain, notorious "technology" agreement - but I see no evidence that
    >> they are even keeping up with the competition, let alone surpassing them.
    >>
    >> Instead of "indemnity" for SLED users, I was hoping for working ooXML
    >> filters and an Evolution client that could talk to an Exchange 2007
    >> host. If those are not to be had, then so far, openSUSE has not
    >> surpassed the standard set by Ubuntu 7.04 except that, for a little
    >> while longer, they have a KDE system on first install that's more to my
    >> liking, but the clock is ticking on that and the train seems to be
    >> moving away from the station (where is the "All of KDE" option)?
    >>
    >> TO DO
    >>
    >> Now, with a working installation that is about as good and my 10.1 and
    >> 10.2 systems (though with a little less work), I need to look at the
    >> sound server, see if I can tweak the graphics (at least to remove the
    >> distortions - we can't have any of that) and then look at the 3rd party
    >> software repositories.
    >>
    >> Is xinelib still corrupted? Will fixing it via 3rd party sites still
    >> confuse the updater? Is K3b still corrupted to prohibit MP3 support?
    >> I've notice that Firefox is no longer tied to Google, but typing
    >> "google" in the address bar still has the annoying effect of filling the
    >> initial search text-box with "google.com" forcing you to erase that
    >> pointlessness (I think this is a Firefox issue, not Novell's).
    >>
    >> Is Amarok now going to be corrupted due to the new "mp3" agreement, or
    >> will it still work the "old" way if I so choose? Finally, I'll test the
    >> wireless support and suspend options on recent model HP Laptops. Maybe
    >> even see what it supports on a Tablet.

    >
    > Good post.
    >
    > But personally I'm waiting till Suse 11 comes out. o.xx releases are
    > usually patch ups imo.
    >
    > toe
    >
    > http:///www.vistaisrubbish.com


    Huh? SuSE has NEVER done major and minor releases. They are all just
    releases regardless of the numbering scheme chosen by marketing.
    Anyone that even looked at the changes from one release to the next would
    know that. Why do people repeat and believe this old wives tale? It's your
    choice but why not wait until version 20?


    Dave

  5. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    toedipper wrote:
    > Usenet Reader wrote:
    >> As soon as the GM images became available an the main host, I began a
    >> clean, default, evaluation install of openSUSE 10.3 KDE CD. Here are
    >> my very initial, very brief results from the first and second clean
    >> install trials:





    >
    > Good post.


    You don't need to quote the whole post to say that.

    >
    > But personally I'm waiting till Suse 11 comes out. o.xx releases are
    > usually patch ups imo.


    No reason to rush as long as your current version is supported.

    10.0 will not get patches anymore, so I updated my server to 10.3

    There were no probs, none wse.

    While you wait, you might want to get familiar with Suse's patches and
    version numbering. You don't seem to have a clue.

    Vahis
    --
    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?...cs.com&probe=1

  6. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    Usenet Reader wrote:
    > Download was very fast. This surprised me as I was expecting the main
    > download.opensuse site to be overloaded on October 4th.


    download.opensuse.org points to mirrors. They have perfected this into
    looking how much each mirror can handle more or less, combined with
    where you are from. This means that most likely you will be pointed to a
    server that is NOT overloaded. They have learbned a lot since 10.0 came
    out and was much bigger then anticipated.

    At least Guru had their memory increased. With Gurur, the limitation was
    the swapping of the disks with several thousand downloaders. That made
    it LOOK as if bandwith was the problem.

    Also many people now use bittorrent, so that halps a lot as well. Still
    3427 downloaders and 1475 offering.

    > Default install - same problems as before (with 10.2). On 6-month old,
    > vanilla HP DC7700 workstations, the install black-screens after choosing
    > the default option. You must choose the no DCPI option.


    Have you filed a bugreport for that for 10.2? If not, they did not know
    it was broken and did not know that they needed to fix it.


    > Second installation process (no online repositories) - just installing
    > from the KDE CD and taking all the defaults was pretty effortless. And
    > while this may really be the best openSUSE release, with the best
    > installer, there wasn't very much actually different, in the end, from
    > the prior 2 releases:


    Most of the differences in a distribution wil be there where you won't
    see them. Remember that the timedifference is onlu 8 moths, not 8 years
    at with Windows.

    > Only thing is, they still "keep silent" about what you are supposed to
    > do with them.


    They are 3rd parties. They can not tell you what to do with them. The
    reason is that they do not have any control over it,

    > The networked HP LaserJet 4200n printer still isn't detected, and has to
    > be manually configured.


    Have you filed a bugreport for that for 10.2? If not, they did not know
    it was broken and did not know that they needed to fix it.

    > CONCLUSION
    >
    > While the only real trouble remains the video card and monitor (standard
    > onboard Intel), and it did get better, I remain disappointed about
    > hardware detection and configuration improvements. Other, older
    > distributions fly through all of these on the same system and setup
    > everything effortlessly and perfectly. Ubuntu 7.04 grabbed the nearest
    > networked printer without any intervention and made even more distant
    > ones available with a one-click selection from a list it built. It got
    > the video and sound just right without any necessary alterations on my
    > part. Novell is supposed to have the so-called "advantage" of a
    > certain, notorious "technology" agreement - but I see no evidence that
    > they are even keeping up with the competition, let alone surpassing them.


    Have you filed a bugreport for that for 10.2? If not, they did not know
    it was broken and did not know that they needed to fix it.

    > TO DO


    For you to do is to file bugreports so that 11.0 will be what you expect
    it to be. ou sound like a good person to do so. You analize things
    correctly, I think and that will help a lot. As you already are doing
    tose tests, why not file them as bugreports. That doesn'tmean you are
    betatesting (although you can, if you want to).

    This goes for everybody. Once you notice something that doesn't work or
    that you want differently, file a bugreport. The worst that can happen
    is that they say that they won't fix it for reason X.

    houghi
    --
    Listen do you hear them drawing near in their search for the sinners?
    Feeding on the power of our fear and the evil within us.
    Incarnation of Satan's creation of all that we dread.
    When the demons arrive those alive would be better off dead!

  7. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    Vahis wrote:
    > While you wait, you might want to get familiar with Suse's patches and
    > version numbering. You don't seem to have a clue.


    I do, but I would never ever never tell anybody. And if I did, nobody
    would read it anywas. Otherwise people would suddenly know that
    numbering is just marketing and nothing else. (Darn, now I have to shoot
    myse_)^^#@$_^${<{^S
    +++NO CARIER

  8. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    EOS schrieb:

    > do you understand opensource and restricted formats?
    > http://opensuse-community.org/Restri...r_Applications


    These formats are only restricted by SuSE/Novell. Try i.e. Mandriva, its
    also a opensource linux distribution, but comes with full MP3 support.

    Martin.

  9. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    Martin Schnitkemper wrote:
    > · EOS schrieb:
    >
    >> do you understand opensource and restricted formats?
    >> http://opensuse-community.org/Restri...r_Applications

    >
    > These formats are only restricted by SuSE/Novell. Try i.e. Mandriva, its
    > also a opensource linux distribution, but comes with full MP3 support.
    >
    > Martin.


    We all have our preferences. Mandriva probably suits to many, openSUSE
    to others

    SuSE does not even exist since several years.

    Novell obviously does not want to take chances.

    Maybe Mandriva is small enough to get away with it, who would sue if a
    proper compensation can not be expected?

    Use Mandriva if you feel like it. Linux is about choice.

    As you may have noticed, the court cases in software industry (and in
    other industries) are preferably raised against those with potential
    mucho dinero. It's the big fish they're usually after. Novell is big fish.

    “The only difference between a cult and a religion is the amount of real
    estate they own” Frank Zappa, American composer, fl. 1940-1993.

    This topic is soooooo last year

    Vahis
    --
    "Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important
    stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it "
    Linus Torvalds 1996.

  10. "Rogue" Repos (Was: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions)

    In Vahis:

    [Snip...]

    > It's the big fish they're usually after. Novell is big fish.


    That's very true, but anyone outside the "reach" of the totalliy screwed
    US legal system should understand even little fish get baited at times:

    Duluth, Minnesota -- After just four hours of deliberation and two
    days of testimony, a jury found that Jammie Thomas was liable for
    infringing the record labels' copyrights on all 24 the 24 recordings
    at issue in the case of Capitol Records v. Jammie Thomas. The jury
    awarded $9,250 in statutory damages per song, after finding that the
    infringement was "willful," out of a possible total of $150,000 per
    song. The grand total? $222,000 in damages.

    More:

    http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post...ict-is-in.html

    NOTE: I did *NOT* say I agree with this verdict, or the screwed US legal
    system in this regard. I simply want people outside the US to understand
    companies like Novell cannot even appear to support "rogue" sites or the
    organizations/individuals who "support" them. You'd be in court 24/7 and
    possibly bankrupt in a matter of months. Tain't justice but it's real.

    Another US example: the bogus SCO "copyrights" that have tied up IBM and
    others for FIVE PLUS YEARS in a very expensive legal soap opera.

    > This topic is soooooo last year


    I agree completely but I think it's important Novell gets fair treatment
    here, even though I disagree strongly with some of its PHB decisions.

    --
    Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
    Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
    Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
    Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

  11. Re: "Rogue" Repos (Was: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions)

    Harold Stevens wrote:
    > In Vahis:
    >
    > [Snip...]
    >
    >> It's the big fish they're usually after. Novell is big fish.

    >
    > That's very true, but anyone outside the "reach" of the totalliy screwed
    > US legal system should understand even little fish get baited at times:




    > More:
    >




    > I agree completely but I think it's important Novell gets fair treatment
    > here, even though I disagree strongly with some of its PHB decisions.



    I agree with you, what a consensus here

    That "last year" was meant for people who for some reason just don't get
    it and they keep bringing this restricted format stuff up again and again.

    They keep telling here how this and that can play multimedia out of the
    box. Most of the time it's not even true.

    If some distro has that support out of the box, fine, period.
    Rejecting Suse for not having that is also fine with me.

    “The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly
    enforced” Frank Zappa, American composer, fl. 1940-1993.

    Vahis
    --
    "Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important
    stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it "
    Linus Torvalds 1996.

  12. Re: "Rogue" Repos (Was: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions)

    In Vahis:

    [Snip...]

    > In my personal taste most of the music made nowadays by the industry is
    > so bad that I wouldn't take if they gave it to me free.


    FWIW...

    I don't even shop in stores or look online for it; most of what I bought
    years now are CDs or tracks offered by "indie" artists. It's not a bunch
    of hype approved by parasites in corporate offices, and I know it.

    Back on topic--IMO the pointyhairs fear the loss of control just as much
    as the loss of revenue in terms of "indie" products like Linux (etc.).

    I think the libre/gratis divide is what confuses a lot of noobs, when it
    comes to what can be *legally* installed on any truly "free" property.

    JMO; YMMV...

    --
    Regards, Weird (Harold Stevens) * IMPORTANT EMAIL INFO FOLLOWS *
    Pardon any bogus email addresses (wookie) in place for spambots.
    Really, it's (wyrd) at airmail, dotted with net. DO NOT SPAM IT.
    Kids jumping ship? Looking to hire an old-school type? Email me.

  13. Re: Clean 10.3 Install - First Impressions

    EOS wrote:
    > Usenet Reader wrote:
    >
    >> Is xinelib still corrupted? Will fixing it via 3rd party sites still
    >> confuse the updater? Is K3b still corrupted to prohibit MP3 support?

    >
    > do you understand opensource and restricted formats?
    > http://opensuse-community.org/Restri...r_Applications
    >
    > libxine1
    > k3b-codec
    > libdvdcss


    I supposed I could have expected that, but it was supposed to be a
    'brief' message, and I also thought that certainly within the context of
    the rest of the message, most of us would know about the restricted,
    protected and patent encumbered formats to which I was referring. Why
    else would I mention the 3rd party repositories and development teams?

    OK, give the above clarification, ever since a late nine or early ten
    release, SuSE, SUSE or openSUSE, whatever, has actually broken the likes
    of xine, xinelib and K3b, so that even if you install the correct or
    corrected libraries, codecs or other necessary 'reader support' packages
    from the likes of Packman, et al., they still won't work. The xinelib
    package even had to be renamed to avoid conflicts with the software and
    update systems.

    Now it was pointless to get into the DRM, copyright, fair-use and
    software patent debate here. My comments only had to do with the fact
    that Novell broke the packages, as opposed to not delivering the
    politically controversial technologies. They are the only ones to do
    that. Withing the context of 10.3, my wondering (out loud - it was on
    my "to do" list) is whether or not Amarok will now joint that list,
    given a new "approved" way to play MP3 files. I believe the Unix
    Philosophy (I hope the U-word isn't verboten here) would prefer that an
    MP3 codec should add such support for all applications, not just one. I
    need to investigate these results, and if they are not to my liking, I
    will continue to recommend the "old" way that works the "right" way. It
    seems 10.3, though silent on the topic, may have both helped (repository
    support) and hurt (approved packages) the FOSS (or FLOSS or GLOSS)
    ideals here. I want to consider both the techi and nubee audiences
    here. The popularity of Ubuntu is driven by nubees that become techies
    on that platform. The popularity of PCLinuxOS is driven by techies that
    want the "restricted format" support right out of the virtual box.

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