cbs wrote:

> How do I get the latest stuff installed?

updates =/= upgrades
you have to add some repo's ;-)
http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_Ya...e_Repositories

info
http://en.opensuse.org/Add_Package_Repositories_to_YaST
you can use a ftp / http near at your home
for me is that belguim ;-)
http://ftp.skynet.be/pub/software.opensuse.org/


for the latest openoffice, add this one
http://download.opensuse.org/reposit.../openSUSE_10.2

mozilla stuff
http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...openSUSE_10.2/
--
EOS
www.photo-memories.be
Running KDE 3.5.7 / openSUSE 10.2

cbs wrote:
>I'm wondering if I'm doing something wrong -- my problem is that YaST
>Online Update (SuSE Desktop 10.2) does not bring many of the
>registered software titles up to their latest versions.

>For example:

>Apache, yast updates to 2.2.3, latest on web is 2.2.6
>Ruby, yast updates to 1.8.5.21, latest on web is 1.8.6
>Lighttpd, yast updates to 1.4.13, latest on web is 1.4.18
>OpenOffice, yast updates to 2.0.4, latest on web is 2.2
>FireFox, yast updates to 2.0.0.5, latest on web is 2.0.0.7
>Subversion, yast updates to 1.4.0-29, latest on web is 1.4.5

>I have let YaST execute its Online Update Configuration, and it
>apparently has updated itself to some newer repositories.

>Re-executing the Online Update after this, however, does not result in
>any package updates.

>How do I get the latest stuff installed?

>Many thanks in advance, -c

I regard this as the Windowsification of Linux. What should be
done, in my opinion, is let the manufacturers take care of Apache,
Ruby, OpenOffice, Firefox, Adobe Reader, etc., etc.

All that OpenSUSE should do is either

1) Provide rpm's of the original unmodified stuff that installs
into some standard place.

OR

2) Let the user download them from the manufacturer's site so that
they can be installed in the same standard place.

The standard place should be somewhere in the /usr/local tree, because
that is exactly what it is for.

OpenSUSE should just pay attention to the OS and the small stuff
that is not being actively maintained.

OpenSUSE does not have enough people to look after these large
(and often vulnerable) packages.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

EOS wrote:
>cbs wrote:

>> How do I get the latest stuff installed?

>updates =/= upgrades
>you have to add some repo's ;-)
>http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_Ya...e_Repositories

>info
>http://en.opensuse.org/Add_Package_Repositories_to_YaST
>you can use a ftp / http near at your home
>for me is that belguim ;-)
>http://ftp.skynet.be/pub/software.opensuse.org/


>for the latest openoffice, add this one
>http://download.opensuse.org/reposit.../openSUSE_10.2

>mozilla stuff
>http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...openSUSE_10.2/

Yes, but where does a newbie find out about this? Nothing of
this sort installed automatically.

Further, as I have just posted, it is not possible for OpenSUSE
to keep up with all the packages being produced. Who is going
to take care of Mathematica (which runs on Linux) or repackage
the constant updates to TeX and its friends?

OpenSUSE is using a bad model here.


--
--- Paul J. Gans

Paul J Gans wrote:

....
> I regard this as the Windowsification of Linux. What should be
> done, in my opinion, is let the manufacturers take care of Apache,
> Ruby, OpenOffice, Firefox, Adobe Reader, etc., etc.

Manufacturers take care of what?
Apache is free.
Ruby is free.
OpenOffice is free.
Firefox is free.

What guys that work for free should do to satisfy every imaginable idea that
one can come with?

> All that OpenSUSE should do is either
>
> 1) Provide rpm's of the original unmodified stuff that installs
> into some standard place.

What to do with dependencies?
The newest package 'abc' asks for lib-xy-1.2.3
and the other 'def' still depends on lib-xy-1.0.1.

Depends here means 'abc' will not compile/work with lib-xy-1.0.1, and 'def'
will not work with lib-xy-1.2.3.

Though older 'abc' works with lib-xy-1.0.1, so one can put them togeather in
the same distro.

> OR
>
> 2) Let the user download them from the manufacturer's site so that
> they can be installed in the same standard place.

Who prevents this?
Download whatever you want, compile it, install and see if it works.
Well it will work for sure if dependencies are satisfied, ie. all functions
do exactly the same operations as in older version.

> The standard place should be somewhere in the /usr/local tree, because
> that is exactly what it is for.

See above. I have few of them all the time, but they won't work always out
of the box. I know how to get out of trouble, but that's me.

> OpenSUSE should just pay attention to the OS and the small stuff
> that is not being actively maintained.

So who is going to select packages for users that can't find way out of
problems that arise from version mismatch, missing dependencies, etc.

> OpenSUSE does not have enough people to look after these large
> (and often vulnerable) packages.

They just select version that will work with the rest of selected software,
apply patches if necessary, compile, put in package and deliver an easy to
install system. Who wants more up to date versions, or software that is not
included, must fight obstacles by himself.

If you talk about the Windows way where all programs are located in one
folder (theoretically), but install files all over the place including
System folder, and an old game can overwrite new system library and render
system unstable, sometimes useless, than there is nothing to invent. All
that has to be done is 'nothing'. Keep what came with a computer.

If you would like to have both, there are Linux distributions that are
looking for a way to have 'self contained' programs that can be
uninstalled, by simply deleting directory. Problem is that there is a lot
of work involved to adapt standard Linux software to that way, and they
have even lesser resources than openSUSE, which gives lesser software
available.

--
Regards,
Rajko.

Paul J Gans wrote:

> EOS wrote:
>>cbs wrote:
>
>>> How do I get the latest stuff installed?
>
>>updates =/= upgrades
>>you have to add some repo's ;-)
>>http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_Ya...e_Repositories
>
>>info
>>http://en.opensuse.org/Add_Package_Repositories_to_YaST
>>you can use a ftp / http near at your home
>>for me is that belguim ;-)
>>http://ftp.skynet.be/pub/software.opensuse.org/
>
>
>>for the latest openoffice, add this one
>>http://download.opensuse.org/reposit.../openSUSE_10.2
>
>>mozilla stuff
>>http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...openSUSE_10.2/
>
> Yes, but where does a newbie find out about this? Nothing of
> this sort installed automatically.

1) Try 10.3 to see package management.
2) Don't dismiss openSUSE greeter that start after installation and you will
find a lot of info that new to Linux needs.

> Further, as I have just posted, it is not possible for OpenSUSE
> to keep up with all the packages being produced.

They don't try to do that. They provide working system with few thousands
software packages, who needs more is on it's own.

> Who is going
> to take care of Mathematica (which runs on Linux) or repackage
> the constant updates to TeX and its friends?

The one that needs the newest version for any reason.
They provide tools:
- Build service
- script 'build'
- rpmbuild
etc.
It is a bit demanding task to learn how to use them, but with sufficient
interest it is not impossible.

> OpenSUSE is using a bad model here.

Is it Friday night there, or somebody has party?

--
Regards,
Rajko.

Rajko M. wrote:
>Paul J Gans wrote:

>...
>> I regard this as the Windowsification of Linux. What should be
>> done, in my opinion, is let the manufacturers take care of Apache,
>> Ruby, OpenOffice, Firefox, Adobe Reader, etc., etc.

>Manufacturers take care of what?
>Apache is free.
>Ruby is free.
>OpenOffice is free.
>Firefox is free.

Exactly.

>What guys that work for free should do to satisfy every imaginable idea that
>one can come with?

They don't have to. Their linux packages work fine on OpenSUSE.
OpenSUSE does not have to further modify them.


>> All that OpenSUSE should do is either
>>
>> 1) Provide rpm's of the original unmodified stuff that installs
>> into some standard place.

>What to do with dependencies?
>The newest package 'abc' asks for lib-xy-1.2.3
>and the other 'def' still depends on lib-xy-1.0.1.

There are no dependencies in the already compiled packages from
those producers. You just download them.

>
>Depends here means 'abc' will not compile/work with lib-xy-1.0.1, and 'def'
>will not work with lib-xy-1.2.3.

>Though older 'abc' works with lib-xy-1.0.1, so one can put them togeather in
>the same distro.

See above. I have NEVER run into a case where a version of
OpenOffice or Firefox (or many of the others, for that matter)
did not work as packaged.

I do NOT compile my own.

Unlike many folks, my linux system is a working system. It is
directly on the internet (behind a firewall, it is true) and I
need to have all the security patches NOW, not later. I'm
already running Firefox 2.0.0.7, for example.

I do not have time to compile my own packages, though I have done
so in the past and still do for some more exotic things. I generally
don't have time to do compilation of workhorse packages.


>> OR
>>
>> 2) Let the user download them from the manufacturer's site so that
>> they can be installed in the same standard place.

>Who prevents this?
>Download whatever you want, compile it, install and see if it works.
>Well it will work for sure if dependencies are satisfied, ie. all functions
>do exactly the same operations as in older version.

You do NOT have to compile these things.

>> The standard place should be somewhere in the /usr/local tree, because
>> that is exactly what it is for.

>See above. I have few of them all the time, but they won't work always out
>of the box. I know how to get out of trouble, but that's me.
>
>> OpenSUSE should just pay attention to the OS and the small stuff
>> that is not being actively maintained.

>So who is going to select packages for users that can't find way out of
>problems that arise from version mismatch, missing dependencies, etc.

Standard workhorse packages don't seem to have missing dependencies.
OpenOFFICE has always worked for me out of the box. So has Acroread.
I do use the OpenSUSE TeX installation, but with packages for TeX
being upgraded very often, I do not wait for OpenSUSE to issue those
updates -- I download them from the neartest TuGboat site.

I am runnng the latest GunPlot, two versions ahead of what SuSE
offers. That's OK, because OpenSUSE is interested in bug and
security fixes. I'm interested in the new features in the new
versions.


>
>> OpenSUSE does not have enough people to look after these large
>> (and often vulnerable) packages.

>They just select version that will work with the rest of selected software,
>apply patches if necessary, compile, put in package and deliver an easy to
>install system. Who wants more up to date versions, or software that is not
>included, must fight obstacles by himself.

>If you talk about the Windows way where all programs are located in one
>folder (theoretically), but install files all over the place including
>System folder, and an old game can overwrite new system library and render
>system unstable, sometimes useless, than there is nothing to invent. All
>that has to be done is 'nothing'. Keep what came with a computer.

>If you would like to have both, there are Linux distributions that are
>looking for a way to have 'self contained' programs that can be
>uninstalled, by simply deleting directory. Problem is that there is a lot
>of work involved to adapt standard Linux software to that way, and they
>have even lesser resources than openSUSE, which gives lesser software
>available.

Yes, I know. I am not a newbie.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Rajko M. wrote:
>Paul J Gans wrote:

>> EOS wrote:
>>>cbs wrote:
>>
>>>> How do I get the latest stuff installed?
>>
>>>updates =/= upgrades
>>>you have to add some repo's ;-)
>>>http://en.opensuse.org/Additional_Ya...e_Repositories
>>
>>>info
>>>http://en.opensuse.org/Add_Package_Repositories_to_YaST
>>>you can use a ftp / http near at your home
>>>for me is that belguim ;-)
>>>http://ftp.skynet.be/pub/software.opensuse.org/
>>
>>
>>>for the latest openoffice, add this one
>>>http://download.opensuse.org/reposit.../openSUSE_10.2
>>
>>>mozilla stuff
>>>http://download.opensuse.org/reposit...openSUSE_10.2/
>>
>> Yes, but where does a newbie find out about this? Nothing of
>> this sort installed automatically.

>1) Try 10.3 to see package management.
>2) Don't dismiss openSUSE greeter that start after installation and you will
>find a lot of info that new to Linux needs.

>> Further, as I have just posted, it is not possible for OpenSUSE
>> to keep up with all the packages being produced.

>They don't try to do that. They provide working system with few thousands
>software packages, who needs more is on it's own.

>> Who is going
>> to take care of Mathematica (which runs on Linux) or repackage
>> the constant updates to TeX and its friends?

>The one that needs the newest version for any reason.
>They provide tools:
>- Build service
>- script 'build'
>- rpmbuild
>etc.
>It is a bit demanding task to learn how to use them, but with sufficient
>interest it is not impossible.

>> OpenSUSE is using a bad model here.

>Is it Friday night there, or somebody has party?

You have described a hobbyist system, good for folks who wnat
to play around. I did that with linux long before Version 1.0
of Linux was released. Yes, I've compiled more than my share
of kernels. I've been using Linux for fifteen years.

I was and still am so satisfied with the stabilty and responsiveness
of Linux that I adopted it for my working computers. My work
requires that I have a set of working major packages. I download
the linux versions of those packages, install them (usually in
/usr/local/wherever) and run them. The only time I have had
any trouble is when OpenSUSE *STUPIDLY* built Firefox into the
basic install (in 10.0, if I recall correctly) and you could not
take it out without breaking a ton of dependencies.

So you had a choice: either wait for OpenSUSE updates and fixes
to Firefox, or reinstall the OS *without* installing Firefox.
I eventually went to the latter choice. I then downloaded the
latest Firefox version, installed it in /usr/local/bin/firefox
(my choice of directory) and was happy ever after. I could update
Firefox in about three minutes, including the download time.

The system Mozilla uses for Firefox is really quite clever and very
good. You can put it where you want it without any pain. I keep
a link to it on my desktop. Your milage may vary.

--
--- Paul J. Gans

Rajko M. wrote:

> What to do with dependencies?
> The newest package 'abc' asks for lib-xy-1.2.3
> and the other 'def' still depends on lib-xy-1.0.1.
>
> Depends here means 'abc' will not compile/work with lib-xy-1.0.1, and
> 'def' will not work with lib-xy-1.2.3.
>
> Though older 'abc' works with lib-xy-1.0.1, so one can put them togeather
> in the same distro.


What I would like to know is why the developers can't make updated libs to
be backward compatible with the old ones? Why does an upgrade to libs break
packages at all? Dependency should be on the newest version of a library or
application only. All apps depending on a older version, should be made to
work with updated apps/libs if exists in the system. I just can't
understand why this can't be simpler.

Ruel Smith wrote:

> Rajko M. wrote:
>
>> What to do with dependencies?
>> The newest package 'abc' asks for lib-xy-1.2.3
>> and the other 'def' still depends on lib-xy-1.0.1.
>>
>> Depends here means 'abc' will not compile/work with lib-xy-1.0.1, and
>> 'def' will not work with lib-xy-1.2.3.
>>
>> Though older 'abc' works with lib-xy-1.0.1, so one can put them togeather
>> in the same distro.
>
>
> What I would like to know is why the developers can't make updated libs to
> be backward compatible with the old ones? Why does an upgrade to libs
> break packages at all? Dependency should be on the newest version of a
> library or application only. All apps depending on a older version, should
> be made to work with updated apps/libs if exists in the system. I just
> can't understand why this can't be simpler.

I'm sure that developers are much more aware of pain that changes can
produce, and they are actually first victims, as they have to fix existing
programs, not only libraries. They will try to keep backward compatibility,
but sometimes when you fix some buggy function it is not the same anymore,
and backward compatibility is lost. Second case where new version will
loose backward compatibility is when original design has to be changed for
any reason. Again, developers would like not to do that, but there can be
many valid reasons to redesing some software even if the price is lost
backward compatibility. For instance old design can't accommodate new
features that nobody had in mind years ago, original design was intended
for smaller data set and today application runs unbearable slow.

Most prominent example in openSUSE is zypper and libzypp.
The openSUSE developers had a lot of work to bring it to present status in
10.3 RC1 where it runs fine. I just started to test RC1 installation, but
first impression is that they did big jump in speed from Beta3. What they
did, I have to find out (read, ask).

--
Regards,
Rajko.

Paul J Gans wrote:

> Rajko M. wrote:
>>Paul J Gans wrote:
>
>>...
>>> I regard this as the Windowsification of Linux. What should be
>>> done, in my opinion, is let the manufacturers take care of Apache,
>>> Ruby, OpenOffice, Firefox, Adobe Reader, etc., etc.
>
>>Manufacturers take care of what?
>>Apache is free.
>>Ruby is free.
>>OpenOffice is free.
>>Firefox is free.
>
> Exactly.
>
>>What guys that work for free should do to satisfy every imaginable idea
>>that one can come with?
>
> They don't have to. Their linux packages work fine on OpenSUSE.
> OpenSUSE does not have to further modify them.

Recently I have seen more changelogs than years ago, so I can say that they
modify stuff only if they have to.
- If they fix a bug they will include it in openSUSE and notify upstream
[1].
- If there is bug fixed in upstream they will provide backport.
Be aware that difference between package version in 10.0 and current online
can be huge and patch can be smaller task then to provide whole new version
that needs newer libraries, that break tens of other packages, that may or
may not have updated versions.

>>> All that OpenSUSE should do is either
>>>
>>> 1) Provide rpm's of the original unmodified stuff that installs
>>> into some standard place.
>
>>What to do with dependencies?
>>The newest package 'abc' asks for lib-xy-1.2.3
>>and the other 'def' still depends on lib-xy-1.0.1.
>
> There are no dependencies in the already compiled packages from
> those producers. You just download them.

You look on dependency as it is defined on package level ignoring software
versions. What I stated is that library like glibc you can't update without
risking to break hundreds of other applications. Literally everything is
compiled against glibc.

>>Depends here means 'abc' will not compile/work with lib-xy-1.0.1, and
>>'def' will not work with lib-xy-1.2.3.
>
>>Though older 'abc' works with lib-xy-1.0.1, so one can put them togeather
>>in the same distro.
>
> See above. I have NEVER run into a case where a version of
> OpenOffice or Firefox (or many of the others, for that matter)
> did not work as packaged.

Firefox (and probably OpenOffice) is not good example, as it is self
contained software. That you can do with any application, but the price is
that it is either heavily based on Java, or you avoid newer functions that
are better (faster), but not every system have them.

> I do NOT compile my own.
>
> Unlike many folks, my linux system is a working system. It is
> directly on the internet (behind a firewall, it is true) and I
> need to have all the security patches NOW, not later. I'm
> already running Firefox 2.0.0.7, for example.
>
> I do not have time to compile my own packages, though I have done
> so in the past and still do for some more exotic things. I generally
> don't have time to do compilation of workhorse packages.
>
>
>>> OR
>>>
>>> 2) Let the user download them from the manufacturer's site so that
>>> they can be installed in the same standard place.
>
>>Who prevents this?
>>Download whatever you want, compile it, install and see if it works.
>>Well it will work for sure if dependencies are satisfied, ie. all
>>functions do exactly the same operations as in older version.
>
> You do NOT have to compile these things.

Sorry, but if somebody don't compile code, and put it in packages, how to
run application. The begin is not rpm, the begin is source code.

>>> The standard place should be somewhere in the /usr/local tree, because
>>> that is exactly what it is for.
>
>>See above. I have few of them all the time, but they won't work always out
>>of the box. I know how to get out of trouble, but that's me.
>>
>>> OpenSUSE should just pay attention to the OS and the small stuff
>>> that is not being actively maintained.
>
>>So who is going to select packages for users that can't find way out of
>>problems that arise from version mismatch, missing dependencies, etc.
>
> Standard workhorse packages don't seem to have missing dependencies.
> OpenOFFICE has always worked for me out of the box.
> I do use the OpenSUSE TeX installation, but with packages for TeX
> being upgraded very often, I do not wait for OpenSUSE to issue those
> updates -- I download them from the neartest TuGboat site.
>
> I am runnng the latest GunPlot, two versions ahead of what SuSE
> offers. That's OK, because OpenSUSE is interested in bug and
> security fixes. I'm interested in the new features in the new
> versions.

"There is no dependencies" is wrong expression here.
"There is no additional dependencies" is right.
You are installing software on installed system with hundreds of packages
already present. Try to install basic text system with YaST and then try to
install OpenOffice.

Second, I can create rpm package that has no dependencies (although software
has many), it will install, and it may even work in already installed
system.

Bugs that one can see are small problem, the big one are bugs that is not
easy to discover, like wrong calculation. Program runs, there is not
errors, but you can't trust results.

Firefox is nice example where precise calculation is not condition 'sine qua
non'. Few pixels left or right is irrelevant error.
GnuPlot is similar.

>>> OpenSUSE does not have enough people to look after these large
>>> (and often vulnerable) packages.
>
>>They just select version that will work with the rest of selected
>>software, apply patches if necessary, compile, put in package and deliver
>>an easy to install system. Who wants more up to date versions, or software
>>that is not included, must fight obstacles by himself.
>
>>If you talk about the Windows way where all programs are located in one
>>folder (theoretically), but install files all over the place including
>>System folder, and an old game can overwrite new system library and render
>>system unstable, sometimes useless, than there is nothing to invent. All
>>that has to be done is 'nothing'. Keep what came with a computer.
>
>>If you would like to have both, there are Linux distributions that are
>>looking for a way to have 'self contained' programs that can be
>>uninstalled, by simply deleting directory. Problem is that there is a lot
>>of work involved to adapt standard Linux software to that way, and they
>>have even lesser resources than openSUSE, which gives lesser software
>>available.
>
> Yes, I know. I am not a newbie.

I know that you are not new here.
That was main reason to spend time writing answer instead to play with
openSUSE 10.3. It seems that you never looked behind the rpm packaging
scene and that made you trust any rpm.

There is a lot of work between source and rpm containing easy to install
binary. Packagers are not recognized by users in software distribution
chain, but they should be. Specially openSUSE guys, for effort they put in
correct packaged software.

--
Regards,
Rajko.

cbs wrote:

>>
>> How do I get the latest stuff installed?
>>
>> Many thanks in advance, -c
>
> EOS, Paul, and Rajko --
>
> Thanks for all the info, you have given me a handle to get this sorted
> out.
>
> IMHO, YaST is only a tool to get the update (and wouldn't upgrades be
> wonderful?) job done; and I assume that when I understand it better I
> can configure it to run with minimal intervention. And far, far more
> powerful than anything the Redmond model could ever aspire to.

YaST = Yet Another Setup Tool.

It is really a huge lot more than just for updates.

It is the closest to perfect system configuration set of tools available.

You need to get to know it.

If you want to perform software upgrades with YaST, have a look at my
notes that I wrote quite a while ago for 10.0, they are still valid:

http://waxborg.servepics.com/mobile/...10.html#KDE3.5

Vahis
--
"Only wimps use tape backup: _real_ men just upload their important
stuff on ftp, and let the rest of the world mirror it "
Linus Torvalds 1996.