10.2 partitioning. Sucks! - Suse

This is a discussion on 10.2 partitioning. Sucks! - Suse ; Rajko M. : > houghi wrote: > > > s. keeling wrote: > >> No, I won't. *That requires me to create a Novell account. > > > > So? > > > >> I've no need of one. *Debian's ...

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Thread: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

  1. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    Rajko M. :
    > houghi wrote:
    >
    > > s. keeling wrote:
    > >> No, I won't. *That requires me to create a Novell account.

    > >
    > > So?
    > >
    > >> I've no need of one. *Debian's reportbug doesn't need that. *Novell
    > >> shouldn't either.

    > >
    > > Perhaps this comes as a surprise, but Novell is not Debian.
    > >
    > > The reason
    > > the ask for your email (and name) is so they can get back to you in case

    >
    > The difference between Novell and Debian is not only matter of opinion, it
    > is the difference between profit and non-profit organization.


    Thanks, that was an excellent answer. I still think Debian's
    reportbug would provide all that Suse needs if fixing bugs were the
    concern. It's not. Stroking paying customers is their concern.

    Thet's neither bad nor good from where I'm standing. It's merely
    irrelevant in my situation.


    --
    Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    (*) http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292
    - - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.

  2. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    s. keeling wrote:

    > Rajko M. :
    >> houghi wrote:
    >>
    >> > s. keeling wrote:
    >> >> No, I won't. *That requires me to create a Novell account.
    >> >
    >> > So?
    >> >
    >> >> I've no need of one. *Debian's reportbug doesn't need that. *Novell
    >> >> shouldn't either.
    >> >
    >> > Perhaps this comes as a surprise, but Novell is not Debian.
    >> >
    >> > The reason
    >> > the ask for your email (and name) is so they can get back to you in
    >> > case

    >>
    >> The difference between Novell and Debian is not only matter of opinion,
    >> it is the difference between profit and non-profit organization.

    >
    > Thanks, that was an excellent answer. I still think Debian's
    > reportbug would provide all that Suse needs if fixing bugs were the
    > concern. It's not. Stroking paying customers is their concern.
    >
    > Thet's neither bad nor good from where I'm standing. It's merely
    > irrelevant in my situation.


    The accent is on obligations that company has to everybody, share holders,
    employees, customers, which is complete different from non-profit, and that
    makes difference in workflow organization including bugzilla.

    --
    Regards,
    Rajko.

  3. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    s. keeling wrote:

    > Rajko M. :
    >> houghi wrote:
    >>
    >> > s. keeling wrote:
    >> >> No, I won't. *That requires me to create a Novell account.
    >> >
    >> > So?
    >> >
    >> >> I've no need of one. *Debian's reportbug doesn't need that. *Novell
    >> >> shouldn't either.
    >> >
    >> > Perhaps this comes as a surprise, but Novell is not Debian.
    >> >
    >> > The reason
    >> > the ask for your email (and name) is so they can get back to you in
    >> > case

    >>
    >> The difference between Novell and Debian is not only matter of opinion,
    >> it is the difference between profit and non-profit organization.

    >
    > Thanks, that was an excellent answer. I still think Debian's
    > reportbug would provide all that Suse needs if fixing bugs were the
    > concern. It's not. Stroking paying customers is their concern.
    >
    > Thet's neither bad nor good from where I'm standing. It's merely
    > irrelevant in my situation.


    The accent is on obligations that company has to everybody, share holders,
    employees, customers, which is complete different from non-profit, and that
    makes difference in workflow organization, including bugzilla.

    BTW, I just finished another installation and after resizing and formating
    of target partition, swap was not mounted, the error code was 3030. After
    reboot new instalation run passed almost without glitch. There is already
    bug report filed against alpha 6, but it could have the same background:
    https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=293728
    In my case swap was already present, not just created.

    --
    Regards,
    Rajko.

  4. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    Rajko M. wrote:
    > BTW, I just finished another installation and after resizing and formating
    > of target partition, swap was not mounted, the error code was 3030. After
    > reboot new instalation run passed almost without glitch. There is already
    > bug report filed against alpha 6, but it could have the same background:
    > https://bugzilla.novell.com/show_bug.cgi?id=293728
    > In my case swap was already present, not just created.


    Attach your findings then to the bugreport.

    houghi
    --
    They say pesticides have been linked to low sperm counts.
    In my opinion if you have bugs down there that are so bad
    you need to use a pesticide, you're not gonna get laid anyway.

  5. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    Rajko M. wrote:
    > The accent is on obligations that company has to everybody, share holders,
    > employees, customers, which is complete different from non-profit, and that
    > makes difference in workflow organization including bugzilla.


    That is not a bad thing by defenition. It is good that they have
    obligations.

    houghi
    --
    They say pesticides have been linked to low sperm counts.
    In my opinion if you have bugs down there that are so bad
    you need to use a pesticide, you're not gonna get laid anyway.

  6. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    s. keeling wrote:
    > Why is it that your default mode of conversation is to talk down to
    > whoever you're talking to? Where do you think, "Fsck you houghi!"
    > comes from?!? You treat me like sh*t, guess what you get back in
    > return!


    I did not start this, you did. Look at the subject and your first
    posting.

    > Yet, as an anonymous user of Debian, I can just "reportbug" all I
    > want. Why does Suse insist I create an account instead? Perhaps it's
    > corporate marketroid stuff which doesn't concern me, and which I'd
    > prefer to avoid?


    Perhaps they are interested in correct feedback.

    > ?!? reportbug knows my email address. If the maintainer needs more
    > info, s/he knows where to go to get it. email me.


    And how do they know that the email adress is correct? Say I report a
    bug under a false email, people are putting time and efford in it, yet
    need some feedback, because they can not reproduce the error.

    The mail me and then get a reply from somebody who tells them he does
    not know what is going on. With e registerd email adress, that would not
    happen.

    houghi
    --
    They say pesticides have been linked to low sperm counts.
    In my opinion if you have bugs down there that are so bad
    you need to use a pesticide, you're not gonna get laid anyway.

  7. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    David Bolt :
    > On Fri, 27 Jul 2007, David Bolt wrote:-
    >
    > I forgot to mention something about these step:
    >
    > >1, select the new installation;
    > >2, choose the desktop type (KDE, Gnome, minimal graphical, or text);
    > >3, click partitioning either using the "link" at the top of the page, or
    > > using the pop-up menu on the "change" button;
    > >4, click the radio-button "Create Custom Partition Setup" and the next
    > > button;
    > >5, click the radio-button "Custom Partitioning (for experts)" and then
    > > the next button;
    > >6, click the "Expert" button and the select
    > > "Import Mount Points from Existing /etc/fstab" option;
    > >7, click on the "Show Next" button until the correct / partition for
    > > 10.1 is found and then click the "Yes" button;

    >
    > These steps can be used for almost any version of (open)SUSE upto and
    > including 10.2.
    >
    > With the present alpha of 10.3, there may be some breakage due to the
    > change to using libata. With this, /dev/hda would become /dev/sda, etc.
    > and this may or may not require some re-editing of the /etc/fstab to


    Mea culpa. Thanks for this David. It worked quite well, and my user
    now has 10.2 running happily alongside two Zenwalks and a Xubuntu.

    This time it did notice the existing swap ptn (which the installer had
    already activated). Once I imported the old fstab from 10.1,
    everything just worked fairly sensibly. About all that needed to be
    done was fix /boot/grub/menu.lst to boot the Zenwalks.

    It was about the slowest install I've done in a while, but Suse is
    also about the fattest install I've done. His only complaint now is
    where's tbird? :-)

    So, apologies to Suse. I guess I should have played with it some more
    to better familiarize myself with the installer before I tried to use
    it. Sigh.


    --
    Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    (*) http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292
    - - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.

  8. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    s. keeling :
    >
    > also about the fattest install I've done. His only complaint now is
    > where's tbird? :-)


    And now he tells me prefers Evolution over tbird.


    --
    Any technology distinguishable from magic is insufficiently advanced.
    (*) http://blinkynet.net/comp/uip5.html Linux Counter #80292
    - - http://www.faqs.org/rfcs/rfc1855.html Please, don't Cc: me.

  9. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    On Wed, 1 Aug 2007, s. keeling wrote:-



    >It was about the slowest install I've done in a while, but Suse is
    >also about the fattest install I've done.


    If you dislike fat installs, you'll like 10.3 when it's released. It
    seems to have a much smaller base install, seems to run a little faster,
    and does away completely with Zenworks, using opensuseupdater in its
    place, so updates are (a little) faster.

    > His only complaint now is
    >where's tbird? :-)


    I don't think it's installed by default but it's on the DVD, as well as
    the FTP server, so he/you can install it. He'll/you'll find it with the
    package name MozillaThunderbird.

    >So, apologies to Suse. I guess I should have played with it some more
    >to better familiarize myself with the installer before I tried to use
    >it. Sigh.


    No worries. Everyone has an off day :-)


    Regards,
    David Bolt

    --
    Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 100 Mnodes/s: www.distributed.net
    RISC OS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
    RISC OS 3.6 | SUSE 10.0 64bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
    TOS 4.02 | SUSE 9.3 32bit | | openSUSE 10.3a6 32bit

  10. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    On Thu, 2 Aug 2007, s. keeling wrote:-

    >s. keeling :
    >>
    >> also about the fattest install I've done. His only complaint now is
    >> where's tbird? :-)

    >
    >And now he tells me prefers Evolution over tbird.


    LOL.


    Regards,
    David Bolt

    --
    Member of Team Acorn checking nodes at 100 Mnodes/s: www.distributed.net
    RISC OS 3.11 | SUSE 10.0 32bit | SUSE 10.1 32bit | openSUSE 10.2 32bit
    RISC OS 3.6 | SUSE 10.0 64bit | SUSE 10.1 64bit | openSUSE 10.2 64bit
    TOS 4.02 | SUSE 9.3 32bit | | openSUSE 10.3a6 32bit

  11. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    s. keeling wrote:
    > So, apologies to Suse. I guess I should have played with it some more
    > to better familiarize myself with the installer before I tried to use
    > it. Sigh.


    The installer is also one of the fattest, in that it can do so much more
    then 'just' install. It also tries to do both the "I.D. ten tea"
    installation as well as the please the most experiecned user and also
    make it possible for customisation of the installation process.

    It both fails and succeeds at this at the same time. Luckily it succeeds
    more then that it fails. MUCH more, I would say. :-D

    houghi
    --
    It's people. Source code is made out of people! They're making our
    source out of people. Next thing they'll be breeding us like cattle
    for code. You've gotta tell them. You've gotta tell them!

  12. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    David Bolt wrote:
    > If you dislike fat installs, you'll like 10.3 when it's released. It
    > seems to have a much smaller base install, seems to run a little faster,
    > and does away completely with Zenworks, using opensuseupdater in its
    > place, so updates are (a little) faster.


    Removing zenworks is a bad move, I think. It made discussions so much
    livelier. All that Novell does is take away things that people can
    complain about. Wussies.


    houghi
    --
    It's people. Source code is made out of people! They're making our
    source out of people. Next thing they'll be breeding us like cattle
    for code. You've gotta tell them. You've gotta tell them!

  13. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    houghi wrote:

    > s. keeling wrote:
    >> Yes, it did exactly that. Then I clicked on the "Change" -->
    >> "Partitioning" button at the bottom, told it what I actually wanted it
    >> to do, and time and time again it came back telling me it was going to
    >> use one of my other ptns for /home, /usr, ... despite my having told
    >> it not to!

    >
    > That is AWESOME. 10.2 is out for about a year now, including several
    > stages of alpha and betatesting and you are the first to exprience this.
    > WOW, amazing.
    >
    > So the fact that you are the only one who has this problem means
    > obviously that the 10.2 partitioning sucks. I agree completely with you.
    > As you had this issue, it s clear that we all must run away from
    > openSUSE right away.
    >
    > houghi


    Actually he wasn't the only one with the described problem. If you remember
    back about a year ago, I described a similar situation with openSUSE 10.2
    where the expert partitioning option would want to ignore my settings in
    Expert Mode. Eventually after insisting for the umpteenth time (slightly
    short of a googleplex) it finally took my changes.
    --
    Later,
    Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

    Webpage Sorcery
    http://webpagesorcery.com
    We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

  14. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    >> So the fact that you are the only one who has this problem means
    >> obviously that the 10.2 partitioning sucks. I agree completely with you.
    >> As you had this issue, it s clear that we all must run away from
    >> openSUSE right away.


    > Actually he wasn't the only one with the described problem. If you
    > remember
    > back about a year ago, I described a similar situation with openSUSE 10.2
    > where the expert partitioning option would want to ignore my settings in
    > Expert Mode. Eventually after insisting for the umpteenth time (slightly
    > short of a googleplex) it finally took my changes.


    I too had the same issues.

    I'd be in expert mode, tell the installer to put grub on sdc1 and it would
    put it on sda1 instead. This happened THREE times in a row, with me watching
    the installer more closely each time. Eventually I found just where the
    installer "forgot" when I told it and was able to work around the issue.



  15. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    Noozer wrote:

    >>> So the fact that you are the only one who has this problem means
    >>> obviously that the 10.2 partitioning sucks. I agree completely with you.
    >>> As you had this issue, it s clear that we all must run away from
    >>> openSUSE right away.

    >
    >> Actually he wasn't the only one with the described problem. If you
    >> remember
    >> back about a year ago, I described a similar situation with openSUSE 10.2
    >> where the expert partitioning option would want to ignore my settings in
    >> Expert Mode. Eventually after insisting for the umpteenth time (slightly
    >> short of a googleplex) it finally took my changes.

    >
    > I too had the same issues.
    >
    > I'd be in expert mode, tell the installer to put grub on sdc1 and it would
    > put it on sda1 instead. This happened THREE times in a row, with me
    > watching the installer more closely each time. Eventually I found just
    > where the installer "forgot" when I told it and was able to work around
    > the issue.


    The fact is that 10.3 needs testing and this would be opportunity for you to
    see improved Expert Partitioning tool. Funny is that changes are not big,
    just a bit different default selection on second screen and it feels much
    better.

    --
    Regards,
    Rajko.

  16. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    On 2007-08-10, Noozer wrote:
    >>> So the fact that you are the only one who has this problem means
    >>> obviously that the 10.2 partitioning sucks. I agree completely with you.
    >>> As you had this issue, it s clear that we all must run away from
    >>> openSUSE right away.

    >
    >> Actually he wasn't the only one with the described problem. If you
    >> remember
    >> back about a year ago, I described a similar situation with openSUSE 10.2
    >> where the expert partitioning option would want to ignore my settings in
    >> Expert Mode. Eventually after insisting for the umpteenth time (slightly
    >> short of a googleplex) it finally took my changes.

    >
    > I too had the same issues.
    >
    > I'd be in expert mode, tell the installer to put grub on sdc1 and it would
    > put it on sda1 instead. This happened THREE times in a row, with me watching
    > the installer more closely each time. Eventually I found just where the
    > installer "forgot" when I told it and was able to work around the issue.
    >
    >

    The partioning should also have the capability to repartition or add new
    partitions when there is free space available after changing the size
    of a partition. I had to exit & partition the drive using my partition
    magic 7 & then restart the install of 10.2; perhaps the writers/testers
    are following m$ in not doing partioning on a new install onto a
    bare drive.....

    I did get the problem of the OP as I "clicked" on the partition for editing,
    I think, & not use the "change" button..


  17. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    On 2007-08-10, houghi wrote:
    > student wrote:
    >> The partioning should also have the capability to repartition or add new
    >> partitions when there is free space available after changing the size
    >> of a partition. I had to exit & partition the drive using my partition
    >> magic 7 & then restart the install of 10.2; perhaps the writers/testers
    >> are following m$ in not doing partioning on a new install onto a
    >> bare drive.....

    >
    > _YOU_ are the tester who is following M$ or not. So what is the
    > bugnumber for this? Neta 10.3 is out, so I hope it isn't too late for
    > changes.
    >
    > That said, I do not see the problem. I do not want to say that there
    > isn't one, I just do not understand what the problem is. I can
    > re-partition anything I desire at any moment.
    >
    > houghi


    EVERYONE is a tester. The early linux distributions that aren't into
    the "nice" install procedure do allow partitioning as the installer wishes.

    Get off your high-horse. From what I've seen frequently, you so-called
    experts imply that anything wrong is the users' fault; problems are ignored
    or considered inconsequential.

    If *YOU* only consider OFFICIAL notification is valid, then YOU are following
    m$ policy; even then some bug reports are ignored, considered user error or
    "wait until the next version" when you buy it.

    Guess you're one of those who got theirs working & the hell with other
    people.

  18. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!

    student wrote:
    >> _YOU_ are the tester who is following M$ or not. So what is the
    >> bugnumber for this? Neta 10.3 is out, so I hope it isn't too late for
    >> changes.
    >>
    >> That said, I do not see the problem. I do not want to say that there
    >> isn't one, I just do not understand what the problem is. I can
    >> re-partition anything I desire at any moment.
    >>
    >> houghi

    >
    > EVERYONE is a tester.


    That is what I am saying. And I use the meaning 'tester' very loose.

    > The early linux distributions that aren't into
    > the "nice" install procedure do allow partitioning as the installer wishes.
    >
    > Get off your high-horse. From what I've seen frequently, you so-called
    > experts imply that anything wrong is the users' fault; problems are ignored
    > or considered inconsequential.


    Not me. It can be anybodies fault. It is just that IF you find a fault,
    the best thing is to report it. Wether this is a design fault or a
    programming fault is irrelevant.

    > If *YOU* only consider OFFICIAL notification is valid, then YOU are following
    > m$ policy; even then some bug reports are ignored, considered user error or
    > "wait until the next version" when you buy it.


    Yep, I only consider things that the designers are aware of relevant.
    The best way to tell them is to go to bugzilla and report it.

    > Guess you're one of those who got theirs working & the hell with other
    > people.


    Guess you are one of tose people who believe that developers are
    clearvoyant.

    An example. I use maeSUSEdvd and I notice that when I run it, it gives
    an error when ran from withing zsh on a portable with 512M of memory.
    I see this in version 0.1 up to version 25.7.

    I can now say that the maker of that program is an idiot, or I can tell
    him that I noticed it, so he can repair it.

    And yes, sometimes people will read bugreports and then decide it is not
    a security issue, so it will get only into the next version. Perhaps
    they think it is a bad idea and will not apply it (Back letters on a
    black background is not a good idea and will be ignored) or will have
    such a low priority that it will be dealth with if enough people are
    available.

    That said, only bugs that get reported wil be looked at and filterd out.
    If it isn't reported, it isn't dealth with.

    If you have a way to solve issues without people knowing they are there,
    please come forward, because everybody would love that solution.
    Unfortunatly, nobody knows that, unless you tell everybody how it works.
    Bit of a catch 22. ;-)

    houghi
    --
    The blue light suddenly flashed on my horrified face. What a disaster!
    Oh, the humanity! I never thought it would happen to me. How terrifying
    it is to see for yourself "*The Blue Screen of Death*".

  19. Re: 10.2 partitioning. Sucks!


    Enough said. You don't like "top replies" so here it is.

    Evidently YOU are a myopic bureaucratic stifneck. Obviously
    you also don't read many release notes where it states what
    was corrected & what the "known issues" are; known issues
    are what still need to be done. Some developes also state
    just state that there are still things that need to be fixed
    or added.

    If a "developer" only is concerned with OFFICIAL problems,
    then that developer isn't worth it if that person ignores
    known problems because it wasn't OFFICIAL even if that
    developer also experienced the same problem.

    I can just see either a cop or fireman saying they cannot do
    anything because there is no OFFICIAL report of the incident.

    But I guess the Calif attorney general is of the same thought
    process you have. Brown is not upholding or enforcing the
    state constitution because there is NO OFFICIAL charge that
    the state legisture is violating the state constitution when
    they are supposed to pass the state budget by a certain date.
    I do see perjury here, if that is applicable since it is
    part of the oath of office.


    On 2007-08-11, houghi wrote:
    > student wrote:
    >>> _YOU_ are the tester who is following M$ or not. So what is the
    >>> bugnumber for this? Neta 10.3 is out, so I hope it isn't too late for
    >>> changes.
    >>>
    >>> That said, I do not see the problem. I do not want to say that there
    >>> isn't one, I just do not understand what the problem is. I can
    >>> re-partition anything I desire at any moment.
    >>>
    >>> houghi

    >>
    >> EVERYONE is a tester.

    >
    > That is what I am saying. And I use the meaning 'tester' very loose.
    >
    >> The early linux distributions that aren't into
    >> the "nice" install procedure do allow partitioning as the installer wishes.
    >>
    >> Get off your high-horse. From what I've seen frequently, you so-called
    >> experts imply that anything wrong is the users' fault; problems are ignored
    >> or considered inconsequential.

    >
    > Not me. It can be anybodies fault. It is just that IF you find a fault,
    > the best thing is to report it. Wether this is a design fault or a
    > programming fault is irrelevant.
    >
    >> If *YOU* only consider OFFICIAL notification is valid, then YOU are following
    >> m$ policy; even then some bug reports are ignored, considered user error or
    >> "wait until the next version" when you buy it.

    >
    > Yep, I only consider things that the designers are aware of relevant.
    > The best way to tell them is to go to bugzilla and report it.
    >
    >> Guess you're one of those who got theirs working & the hell with other
    >> people.

    >
    > Guess you are one of tose people who believe that developers are
    > clearvoyant.
    >
    > An example. I use maeSUSEdvd and I notice that when I run it, it gives
    > an error when ran from withing zsh on a portable with 512M of memory.
    > I see this in version 0.1 up to version 25.7.
    >
    > I can now say that the maker of that program is an idiot, or I can tell
    > him that I noticed it, so he can repair it.
    >
    > And yes, sometimes people will read bugreports and then decide it is not
    > a security issue, so it will get only into the next version. Perhaps
    > they think it is a bad idea and will not apply it (Back letters on a
    > black background is not a good idea and will be ignored) or will have
    > such a low priority that it will be dealth with if enough people are
    > available.
    >
    > That said, only bugs that get reported wil be looked at and filterd out.
    > If it isn't reported, it isn't dealth with.
    >
    > If you have a way to solve issues without people knowing they are there,
    > please come forward, because everybody would love that solution.
    > Unfortunatly, nobody knows that, unless you tell everybody how it works.
    > Bit of a catch 22. ;-)
    >
    > houghi


  20. Re: Opensource development.

    Hi student,

    You will excuse me to jump in discussion, but it seems necessary.

    You wrote:
    > Enough said. You don't like "top replies" so here it is.


    It is not who likes what, but what is more appropriate for the purpose.

    Bottom posting allows multiple answers with quotes sorted as they were
    created. It is easy to read. If timeline is not important it is irrelevant
    what posting style is used, top, bottom, with or without quotes.

    Here in technical newsgroup it is rare occasion to see one answer as a
    solution to question, so we rather use bottom posting to make discussion
    easy to read.

    BTW, I don't like top posting too, if it is not productive.


    >Obviously
    > you also don't read many release notes where it states what
    > was corrected & what the "known issues" are; known issues
    > are what still need to be done. Some developers also state
    > just state that there are still things that need to be fixed
    > or added.


    You seems to miss how that information found way in release notes.
    Some issues developers found themselves, others somebody told them about.
    Believe me, they didn't hunt them around. They do read some mail lists,
    forums and newsgroups, but for sure not all. It is impossible.

    > If a "developer" only is concerned with OFFICIAL problems,
    > then that developer isn't worth it if that person ignores
    > known problems because it wasn't OFFICIAL even if that
    > developer also experienced the same problem.


    I don't know how to explain your words, but with lack of experience with
    open source. Most of developers work on projects in their free time, which
    is limited. They are proud if that works properly, and if they are aware of
    an issue it will be solved, but there is a catch in "if they are aware".

    Take for example KDE (GNOME, kernel, OpenOffice).
    It is used in hundreds of distributions. Each of them has mail lists,
    forums, newsgroups and each of them has tens of posts every day. That
    mounts to few thousads posts every day and most of them are not KDE
    related.

    On the other side, within KDE you have hundreds of projects, and guy that
    develops KNode wants to see KNode related bugs, where he can be helpful,
    not Kopete and hundred others, where he is not familiar with development.

    How much time he/she would have to spend online to catch all the bugs that
    are reported in unofficial media instead of official KDE Bugzilla. My
    guesstimate is few days to read only one day of communication in forums.

    That is the reason that we have to report bugs on central place for the
    project (you call that "official"), and let developers solve them, not
    waste their time hunting them around.



    > On 2007-08-11, houghi wrote:
    >> student wrote:
    >>>> _YOU_ are the tester who is following M$ or not. So what is the
    >>>> bugnumber for this? Beta 10.3 is out, so I hope it isn't too late for
    >>>> changes.
    >>>>
    >>>> That said, I do not see the problem. I do not want to say that there
    >>>> isn't one, I just do not understand what the problem is. I can
    >>>> re-partition anything I desire at any moment.
    >>>>
    >>>> houghi
    >>>
    >>> EVERYONE is a tester.

    >>
    >> That is what I am saying. And I use the meaning 'tester' very loose.
    >>
    >>> The early linux distributions that aren't into
    >>> the "nice" install procedure do allow partitioning as the installer
    >>> wishes.
    >>>
    >>> Get off your high-horse. From what I've seen frequently, you so-called
    >>> experts imply that anything wrong is the users' fault; problems are
    >>> ignored or considered inconsequential.

    >>
    >> Not me. It can be anybodies fault. It is just that IF you find a fault,
    >> the best thing is to report it. Wether this is a design fault or a
    >> programming fault is irrelevant.
    >>
    >>> If *YOU* only consider OFFICIAL notification is valid, then YOU are
    >>> following m$ policy; even then some bug reports are ignored, considered
    >>> user error or "wait until the next version" when you buy it.

    >>
    >> Yep, I only consider things that the designers are aware of relevant.
    >> The best way to tell them is to go to bugzilla and report it.
    >>
    >>> Guess you're one of those who got theirs working & the hell with other
    >>> people.

    >>
    >> Guess you are one of those people who believe that developers are
    >> clearvoyant.
    >>
    >> An example. I use makeSUSEdvd and I notice that when I run it, it gives
    >> an error when ran from within ash on a portable with 512M of memory.
    >> I see this in version 0.1 up to version 25.7.
    >>
    >> I can now say that the maker of that program is an idiot, or I can tell
    >> him that I noticed it, so he can repair it.
    >>
    >> And yes, sometimes people will read bugreports and then decide it is not
    >> a security issue, so it will get only into the next version. Perhaps
    >> they think it is a bad idea and will not apply it (Back letters on a
    >> black background is not a good idea and will be ignored) or will have
    >> such a low priority that it will be dealth with if enough people are
    >> available.
    >>
    >> That said, only bugs that get reported will be looked at and filtered

    out.
    >> If it isn't reported, it isn't dealth with.
    >>
    >> If you have a way to solve issues without people knowing they are there,
    >> please come forward, because everybody would love that solution.
    >> Unfortunately, nobody knows that, unless you tell everybody how it works.
    >> Bit of a catch 22. ;-)
    >>
    >> houghi


    --
    Regards,
    Rajko.

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