Re: Backups - Suse

This is a discussion on Re: Backups - Suse ; On Jun 2, 5:23 pm, Paul J Gans wrote: > The situation is further complicated for those of us who live > in apartment buildings, especially high-rise buildings and those > of us who work in large office buildings. High ...

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Thread: Re: Backups

  1. Re: Backups

    On Jun 2, 5:23 pm, Paul J Gans wrote:
    > The situation is further complicated for those of us who live
    > in apartment buildings, especially high-rise buildings and those
    > of us who work in large office buildings.


    High rise and other steel buildings are easy to protect. Code
    compliance does not mean protection is available. Wiring must meet ...
    and exceed ... code requirements.

    Steel I-beams in a high rise are earth ground - a very conductive
    ground. A floor's mains box that connects to that building frame is
    where single point earthing (and the 'whole house' protector) is
    located for that floor.

    A 'whole house' protector is required so that every wire in that AC
    cable is earthed. A breaker box connected directly to a high rise
    frame has one of the best (conductive) earth grounds possible. Since
    that grounded frame connects to rebar in concrete floors, then superb
    equipotential is provided. IOW the floor has both conductivity to
    earth AND equipotential - the two functions of properly earthed
    protection. But any wire that enters a floor without first connecting
    to the same building frame (used by breaker box) compromises
    protection. The floor must implement a single point earth ground.
    Then protection is achieved.

    Building wiring could be code compliant even though all incoming
    wires are not earthed to same frame member. Therefore superb
    protection is compromised. That earthing connection must both meet
    and exceed code requirements. Only conforming to post 1990
    electrical codes is not sufficient. Code does not demand that all
    incoming wires for that floor be earthed to a common point on the
    frame. But surge protection requires that single point earthing
    connection. Code does not demand so short earthing connections. But
    wire impedance (not just conductivity) is why those connections must
    exceed code - be shorter, no sharp bends, not inside metallic conduit,
    etc. None of these necessary requirements to reduce wire impeance are
    required by code.

    Surge protection in steel high rise buildings should be some of the
    easiest to install. Made even easier if the original installers
    understand how to exceed what code demands - such as all incoming
    wires enter at a common service entrance.

    It the technique cannot be applied to individual floors, then it
    must be installed for the entire building. Other guidelines are
    provided in an IEEE paper by Montandon and Rubenstein on 4 Nov 1998 in
    IEEE Trans on Electromagnetic Compatibility. If nothing else, grasp
    the four points in their conclusion (section VI).


  2. Re: Backups

    w_tom wrote:
    >On Jun 2, 5:23 pm, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >> The situation is further complicated for those of us who live
    >> in apartment buildings, especially high-rise buildings and those
    >> of us who work in large office buildings.


    > High rise and other steel buildings are easy to protect. Code
    >compliance does not mean protection is available. Wiring must meet ...
    >and exceed ... code requirements.


    Stop being a bit of a jerk. *I* cannot control what is done
    in my building. I don't own it. I just live in one and work
    in the other.

    Like 99% of everybody here I have to work with what I've got,
    not with some ideal.

    --
    --- Paul J. Gans

  3. Re: Backups

    On Jun 3, 5:09 pm, Paul J Gans wrote:
    > Stop being a bit of a jerk. *I* cannot control what is done
    > in my building. I don't own it. I just live in one and work
    > in the other.


    You have assumed emotions that do not exist. If you cannot do what
    is necessary, then learn the other solutions. That does not change
    anything I have posted. Even Montadon and Rubenstein provided further
    useful techniques. But I guess I am a jerk for providing that IEEE
    source.

    High rise buildings remain some of the easiest to prevent
    destructive surges. Much of what is known about protection comes from
    electronics atop the Empire State Building that suffered 25 direct
    strikes each year without damage even before WWII.

    Meanwhile electronics connected to a UPS were damaged. Of course.
    Adjacent UPS does not provide effective protection and does not claim
    to provide that protection. It has no dedicated earthing and is too
    close to electronics. Irrelevent is whether Paul can do anything
    about it. The science does not change.

    Those who suffer damage in steel high rises can prevent future
    problems by learning where earthing is provided. Also provided were
    guidelines from Montadon and Rubenstein in the IEEE Trans on
    Electromagnetic Compatibility. For those who believe damage is
    acceptable, then ignore the science.

    No battle. This is simple and well proven science. Some have
    learned what has been common knowledge throughout the 20th Century
    even from experience. Code compliant wiring alone does not necessary
    provide sufficent earthing. Earthing provides the protection.
    Effective protectors connect short to earthing. No earth ground means
    no effective proetction.


  4. Re: Backups

    w_tom wrote:

    > On Jun 3, 5:09 pm, Paul J Gans wrote:
    >> Stop being a bit of a jerk. *I* cannot control what is done
    >> in my building. I don't own it. I just live in one and work
    >> in the other.

    >
    > You have assumed emotions that do not exist. If you cannot do what
    > is necessary, then learn the other solutions. That does not change
    > anything I have posted. Even Montadon and Rubenstein provided further
    > useful techniques. But I guess I am a jerk for providing that IEEE
    > source.
    >
    > High rise buildings remain some of the easiest to prevent
    > destructive surges. Much of what is known about protection comes from
    > electronics atop the Empire State Building that suffered 25 direct
    > strikes each year without damage even before WWII.
    >
    > Meanwhile electronics connected to a UPS were damaged. Of course.
    > Adjacent UPS does not provide effective protection and does not claim
    > to provide that protection. It has no dedicated earthing and is too
    > close to electronics. Irrelevent is whether Paul can do anything
    > about it. The science does not change.
    >
    > Those who suffer damage in steel high rises can prevent future
    > problems by learning where earthing is provided. Also provided were
    > guidelines from Montadon and Rubenstein in the IEEE Trans on
    > Electromagnetic Compatibility. For those who believe damage is
    > acceptable, then ignore the science.
    >


    You missed Paul's point entirely. He like I do not have any control over
    what the builders did in apartment complexes expecially those built 40 - 50
    years ago. In smaller towns they might not have even used any codes in
    building. And the owners are not about to incur costs of providing
    electricians to upgrade.

    Outside of trusting to some type of surge protector there is NOTHING we can
    do to improve the electrical system. In my own apartment there were still
    ungrounded receptacles installed, and at least one or two outlets that had
    the three holes but not ground. And the way many local ordinances read,
    until the property is sold, municipalities cannot force the owners to
    upgrade.

    Furthermore some apartment buildings are two and three stories and are
    not "steel high rises."


    > No battle. This is simple and well proven science. Some have
    > learned what has been common knowledge throughout the 20th Century
    > even from experience. Code compliant wiring alone does not necessary
    > provide sufficent earthing. Earthing provides the protection.
    > Effective protectors connect short to earthing. No earth ground means
    > no effective proetction.


    So what do you suggest then if an apartment complex or office building does
    not have adequate grounding when upgrading is NOT an option?

    --
    Later,
    Darrell Stec darstec@neo.rr.com

    Webpage Sorcery
    http://webpagesorcery.com
    We Put the Magic in Your Webpages

  5. Re: Backups

    On Jun 3, 11:19 pm, Darrell Stec
    wrote:
    > You missed Paul's point entirely. He like I do not have any control over
    > what the builders did in apartment complexes expecially those built 40 - 50
    > years ago. In smaller towns they might not have even used any codes in
    > building. And the owners are not about to incur costs of providing
    > electricians to upgrade.


    And provided were guidelines from Montandon and Rubenstein that he
    (and you)could also use.

    However his situation is completely irrelevant to his original
    point. His original point was that effective protection is not
    possible in high rises. That was wrong. Wiring is constantly being
    upgraded and installed in high rises. No, he will not have a problem
    solved next week. But to have protection ten years from now, the
    concepts are learned today. His first point was that high rises have
    no protection. Reality - if surge damage occurs in high rises, then
    the landlord needs to be informed and start a correction process.
    Damage to electronics is not acceptable and especially easy to
    eliminate in high rises.

    This problem is not just limited to high rises. We are still
    building new homes as if the transistor did not exist. Effective
    surge protection has been necessary since the 1970 in all buildings.
    30+ years later, we still build homes without simplest protection
    device such as Ufer grounds. Best and least expensive protection
    starts when footings are poured. Massive protection at a trivial
    cost.

    His first statement was about protection in general. High rises are
    some of the easiest for protection. His later statement instead said
    he could do nothing. But guidelines from Montandon and Rubenstein
    were also provided.

    And finally, Paul demonstrated that protection, provided by plug-in
    devices such as the UPS, does not exist. Where is the earthing? An
    adjacent protector can even shunt a surge destructively through an
    adjacent and powered off appliance. Why? Where is the earthing?
    Earthing - not a protector - is protection. An adjacent protector
    may even compromise protection already inside the appliance as his UPS
    may have demonstrated.

    How to kludge some protection? Take a plug-in protector of maximum
    joules. Cut its power cord as short as possible. Plug it into the
    outlet attached to or as close as possible to the mains breaker box.
    Hopefully that protector will earth something. Distance between
    protector and appliance is also additional protection. Just a kludge
    solution that may provide some protection. Why? Protector has a
    shorter connection to earth ground. Earth ground is the protection.

    Why cut the power cord short? Because shorter distance to earth
    ground is essential to better protection. Removing 5 feet of power
    cord makes the earthing connection shorter. Also reduces exposure
    (induced transients) into other wires.

    Even in a high rise, one 'whole house' protector in a breaker box
    for that floor may provide significant protection. Certainly would do
    more than a UPS, that may have earthed a transient destructively
    through the adjacent computer. Protection is about earthing. High
    rises provide some of the best earthing available meaning surge damage
    inside high rises is simply unacceptable.

    Even a kludge solution is provided. Notice the principle. Shortest
    earthing connection. Separaton between protector and transistors.


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