Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ? - SUN

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  1. Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?


  2. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    "James smyth" sez:

    >http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2003070900126OPBZDP


    Linux is Unix (yeah, not formally, but philosophically).
    Unix has been around since the early 70's.

    What's the big friggin' deal?

    Linux is useful, but how much more "advanced" is it
    over BSD Unix from the late 70's? Even in the early
    80's, BSD 4.2, as I recall, had a superb block I/O
    subsystem; Linux is just now Q/A-ing its new block
    I/O code (as per recent trade rag article).

    Just like the acceptance of Java, much of Linux acceptance
    is a backlash against the ills of Windows (and Microsoft)
    just as much as it is due to the advantages of the
    technology itself.

    Imho, Linux is *not* an innovation per se. Its certainly
    excellent engineering and its a welcome set of tools in
    this Windows-dominated world (cygwin is another). But
    innovative? Hardly. If Linux is innovative, then
    developers are not being very creative these days.

    A Linux fan... and a BSD fan... and a Solaris fan,

    Frank G.
    +=========================================+
    | Crossroads Technologies Inc. |
    | Enterprise Java Engineering |
    | Web: www.CrossroadsTech dot com |
    | Email: fgreco @ crossroadstech dot com |
    +=========================================+

  3. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    In article
    Frank D. Greco wrote:
    >
    > "James smyth" sez:
    >
    > >http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2003070900126OPBZDP

    >
    > Linux is Unix (yeah, not formally, but philosophically).
    > Unix has been around since the early 70's.
    >
    > What's the big friggin' deal?
    >
    > Linux is useful, but how much more "advanced" is it
    > over BSD Unix from the late 70's? Even in the early
    > 80's, BSD 4.2, as I recall, had a superb block I/O
    > subsystem; Linux is just now Q/A-ing its new block
    > I/O code (as per recent trade rag article).
    >
    > Just like the acceptance of Java, much of Linux acceptance
    > is a backlash against the ills of Windows (and Microsoft)
    > just as much as it is due to the advantages of the
    > technology itself.
    >
    > Imho, Linux is *not* an innovation per se. Its certainly
    > excellent engineering and its a welcome set of tools in
    > this Windows-dominated world (cygwin is another). But
    > innovative? Hardly. If Linux is innovative, then
    > developers are not being very creative these days.
    >
    > A Linux fan... and a BSD fan... and a Solaris fan,
    >
    > Frank G.
    > +=========================================+
    > | Crossroads Technologies Inc. |
    > | Enterprise Java Engineering |
    > | Web: www.CrossroadsTech dot com |
    > | Email: fgreco @ crossroadstech dot com |
    > +=========================================+



    Well said.

    Linux is a joke, just an over rated, overhyped, bull****, and I agree on this.


    --
    "I've left my body to science, but I'm afraid they've turned it down."


























  4. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    While restarting Outlook, Frank D Greco grumbled:

    > What's the big friggin' deal?
    >
    > Linux is useful, but how much more "advanced" is it
    > over BSD Unix from the late 70's? Even in the early
    > 80's, BSD 4.2, as I recall, had a superb block I/O
    > subsystem; Linux is just now Q/A-ing its new block
    > I/O code (as per recent trade rag article).


    There are other things, I believe, in which Linux is ahead
    of BSD.

    > Imho, Linux is *not* an innovation per se. Its certainly
    > excellent engineering and its a welcome set of tools in
    > this Windows-dominated world (cygwin is another). But
    > innovative? Hardly. If Linux is innovative, then
    > developers are not being very creative these days.


    Or you're not very tenacious in your search for facts.

    > A Linux fan... and a BSD fan... and a Solaris fan,


    I remember SunOS fondly, on a big screen Sun workstation
    running a 68020 with 32 Mb of RAM.

    The nice thing about Linux for me is now I get to play
    in /etc-land.

    --
    Rejuvenate your hardware with Linux!

  5. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    Frank D. Greco wrote:
    > "James smyth" sez:
    >
    >
    >>http://linuxtoday.com/it_management/2003070900126OPBZDP

    >
    >
    > Linux is Unix (yeah, not formally, but philosophically).
    > Unix has been around since the early 70's.
    >
    > What's the big friggin' deal?
    >
    > Linux is useful, but how much more "advanced" is it
    > over BSD Unix from the late 70's? Even in the early
    > 80's, BSD 4.2, as I recall, had a superb block I/O
    > subsystem; Linux is just now Q/A-ing its new block
    > I/O code (as per recent trade rag article).
    >
    > Just like the acceptance of Java, much of Linux acceptance
    > is a backlash against the ills of Windows (and Microsoft)
    > just as much as it is due to the advantages of the
    > technology itself.
    >
    > Imho, Linux is *not* an innovation per se. Its certainly
    > excellent engineering and its a welcome set of tools in
    > this Windows-dominated world (cygwin is another). But
    > innovative? Hardly. If Linux is innovative, then
    > developers are not being very creative these days.
    >
    > A Linux fan... and a BSD fan... and a Solaris fan,
    >
    > Frank G.
    > +=========================================+
    > | Crossroads Technologies Inc. |
    > | Enterprise Java Engineering |
    > | Web: www.CrossroadsTech dot com |
    > | Email: fgreco @ crossroadstech dot com |
    > +=========================================+



    Yeah ..... it is certainly not innovative.
    After all, you can only:

    1) Run linux on different architectures ( sparc, x86, ppc, ia64, arm,
    etc... ) ... all the OS are doing this, right ?

    2) Run linux on embedded devices and on mainframes ( guest OS or not,
    who cares! ) ... everybody has been doing this! Right?

    3) Choose a journalling filesystem ( ext3, xfs, reiserfs, jfs ). Again
    .... everybody has done this, right ?




  6. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    "booh!" writes in comp.unix.solaris:
    |1) Run linux on different architectures ( sparc, x86, ppc, ia64, arm,
    |etc... ) ... all the OS are doing this, right ?

    Unix did this in the mid 70's and many of the flavors still do.
    Solaris has been doing it for a decade (sparc & x86, and briefly ppc).
    MacOS did it during the 68k->PowerPC transition. Even Windows NT once
    did it (x86, mips, ppc, alpha) though it since stopped.

    |2) Run linux on embedded devices and on mainframes ( guest OS or not,
    |who cares! ) ... everybody has been doing this! Right?

    Yep. Again, various Unix flavors and even Windows have been put into
    embedded decices.

    |3) Choose a journalling filesystem ( ext3, xfs, reiserfs, jfs ). Again
    |... everybody has done this, right ?

    Yep. Pretty much every commercial Unix has done this for years - though
    some as an add-on, just as the above filesystems have not been included
    in every Linux distro but had to be added later. And Veritas provides
    their own for many OS'es as well.

    --
    __________________________________________________ ______________________
    Alan Coopersmith alanc@alum.calberkeley.org
    http://www.CSUA.Berkeley.EDU/~alanc/ aka: Alan.Coopersmith@Sun.COM
    Working for, but definitely not speaking for, Sun Microsystems, Inc.

  7. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    Rich Teer wrote:
    > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, David Williams wrote:
    >
    >
    > What, you need a few more years to copy IP from SCO? ;-)


    Rich .... That'a total insult to the rest of the linux kernel developers.

    >
    >
    > In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    > running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?


    Count organisations ... not people.

    >
    > Linux is a fine OS compared to Windoze, but it is still a
    > toy compared to the likes of Solaris.
    >


    Oh ... you are actually Scott, hiding behind Rich's name.
    That's what Scott said before. Be careful of what you wish for ...
    Solaris may end up just like VMS.



  8. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    booh! (booh@booh.org) wrote:
    : Rich Teer wrote:
    : > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, David Williams wrote:
    : >
    : >
    : > What, you need a few more years to copy IP from SCO? ;-)
    :
    : Rich .... That'a total insult to the rest of the linux kernel developers.
    :
    : >
    : >
    : > In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    : > running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?
    :
    : Count organisations ... not people.
    :
    : >
    : > Linux is a fine OS compared to Windoze, but it is still a
    : > toy compared to the likes of Solaris.
    : >
    :
    : Oh ... you are actually Scott, hiding behind Rich's name.
    : That's what Scott said before. Be careful of what you wish for ...
    : Solaris may end up just like VMS.
    :
    You mean what Windows NT 8.0 hopes to be:

    ftp://atlas.csd.net/pub/vms100.jpg


    --Jerry Leslie (my opinions are strictly my own)
    Note: leslie@jrlvax.houston.rr.com is invalid for email

  9. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    > > In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    > > running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?

    >
    > Count organisations ... not people.


    I would have thought that most organisations would be running the OS that
    comes with the machine - if only for support purposes. Unless it is old
    kit, in which case that is hardly going to give you production ready,
    datacenter hardened code...

    The other thing is, how many linux developers can afford big iron to
    develop and test on? I should imagine that there are very few.

    --
    Steven Hill

    ``Non omne quod nitet aurum est''


  10. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    On Mon, 21 Jul 2003 05:19:18 GMT,
    Rich Teer , in
    wrote:

    +> In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    +> running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?

    Debian sez "hi".

    James
    --
    Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
    I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow
    isn't looking good, either.
    I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.

  11. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, booh! wrote:

    > Rich Teer wrote:
    > > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, David Williams wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > > What, you need a few more years to copy IP from SCO? ;-)

    >
    > Rich .... That'a total insult to the rest of the linux kernel developers.


    It was a flippant, tongue in cheek comment - hence the smiley.

    > Count organisations ... not people.


    OK, same question. How many organisations are using Linux on
    something that isn't a PC? I mean, can one purchase a copy
    of Oracle for Linux on, umm, PPC?

    > Oh ... you are actually Scott, hiding behind Rich's name.


    Scott who? Scott McNealy? Nope, I'm just me.

    --
    Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

    President,
    Rite Online Inc.

    Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
    URL: http://www.rite-online.net


  12. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, Rich Teer wrote:

    > As if UNIX and UNIX-like OSes need another standard! Why the
    > LSB can't just simply adopt SUS is beyond me. Oh, right. SUS
    > is GPLed, or NIH, or something else equally stupid...

    ^^

    /is/isn't/

    ARGH!

    --
    Rich Teer, SCNA, SCSA

    President,
    Rite Online Inc.

    Voice: +1 (250) 979-1638
    URL: http://www.rite-online.net


  13. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    In article ,
    Rich Teer wrote:
    >On 21 Jul 2003 Cypherpunk@nyc.rr.com wrote:
    >
    >> But the Linux Standards Base is in progress. LBase or something.

    >
    >As if UNIX and UNIX-like OSes need another standard! Why the
    >LSB can't just simply adopt SUS is beyond me. Oh, right. SUS
    >is GPLed, or NIH, or something else equally stupid...


    Well, for a decent interoberability you need far more than SUS or POSIX.
    You need to e.g. standardize onuid/gid values for system relevant ids in
    order to be able to mount /usr from another system.
    This is done by SVr4 but not by LSB.

    --
    EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353 Berlin
    js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
    schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
    URL: http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily

  14. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    Joerg Schilling wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Rich Teer wrote:
    >
    >>On 21 Jul 2003 Cypherpunk@nyc.rr.com wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>But the Linux Standards Base is in progress. LBase or something.

    >>
    >>As if UNIX and UNIX-like OSes need another standard! Why the
    >>LSB can't just simply adopt SUS is beyond me. Oh, right. SUS
    >>is GPLed, or NIH, or something else equally stupid...

    >
    >
    > Well, for a decent interoberability you need far more than SUS or POSIX.
    > You need to e.g. standardize onuid/gid values for system relevant ids in
    > order to be able to mount /usr from another system.
    > This is done by SVr4 but not by LSB.
    >


    Apart from Sun, what other major vendor Unix is there that is based
    on SVR4 though? Not AIX, not HPUX, not Tru64.... I'm not saying it's
    a bad idea though... just that it practically means that Solaris is
    roughly interoperable with Solaris. Or have I somehow missed an
    important SVR4 release from someone else?? (don't say UnixWare/SCO please,
    there's as much deployments of that as Plan 9!)



  15. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    Steven Hill wrote:
    >>>In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    >>>running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?

    >>
    >>Count organisations ... not people.

    >
    >
    > I would have thought that most organisations would be running the OS that
    > comes with the machine - if only for support purposes.


    You mean like IBM and HP ?

    Unless it is old
    > kit, in which case that is hardly going to give you production ready,
    > datacenter hardened code...
    >
    > The other thing is, how many linux developers can afford big iron to
    > develop and test on? I should imagine that there are very few.
    >



    Oh ... you mean like Open Source Development Laboratory ?:

    http://www.osdl.org/sponsors/
    http://www.osdl.org/lab_equipment/
    http://www.osdl.org/projects/cgl/
    http://www.osdl.org/projects/dcl/


    Look around the site



  16. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    booh! wrote:
    > Steven Hill wrote:
    >
    >>>> In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    >>>> running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Count organisations ... not people.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I would have thought that most organisations would be running the OS that
    >> comes with the machine - if only for support purposes.

    >
    >
    > You mean like IBM and HP ?
    >
    > Unless it is old
    >
    >> kit, in which case that is hardly going to give you production ready,
    >> datacenter hardened code...
    >>
    >> The other thing is, how many linux developers can afford big iron to
    >> develop and test on? I should imagine that there are very few.
    >>

    >


    Have you also seen the names of who are contributing to the kernel ?

    People from IBM, HP, SGI, Oracle ( to name just a few ) ... Surely you
    are not saying these people in these companies do not have big iron ?



  17. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?


    "Joerg Schilling" wrote in message
    news:bfh8ch$n7$1@news.cs.tu-berlin.de...
    > Well, for a decent interoberability you need far more than SUS or POSIX.
    > You need to e.g. standardize onuid/gid values for system relevant ids in
    > order to be able to mount /usr from another system.
    > This is done by SVr4 but not by LSB.


    Like I said Linux is still 'getting there'. There are new versions of LSB
    coming out.
    Linux is still in the 'playing around with ideas and plugging existing
    stuff together'
    stage. It will be a good few years BEFORE it matures!


    >
    > --
    > EMail:joerg@schily.isdn.cs.tu-berlin.de (home) Jörg Schilling D-13353

    Berlin
    > js@cs.tu-berlin.de (uni) If you don't have iso-8859-1
    > schilling@fokus.fraunhofer.de (work) chars I am J"org Schilling
    > URL: http://www.fokus.fraunhofer.de/usr/schilling

    ftp://ftp.berlios.de/pub/schily



  18. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    In comp.os.linux.advocacy, GreyCloud

    wrote
    on Mon, 21 Jul 2003 12:39:52 -0700
    <3F1C4188.480615A5@mist.com>:
    > "booh!" wrote:
    >>
    >> Rich Teer wrote:
    >> > On Mon, 21 Jul 2003, David Williams wrote:
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > What, you need a few more years to copy IP from SCO? ;-)

    >>
    >> Rich .... That'a total insult to the rest of the linux kernel developers.
    >>
    >> >
    >> >
    >> > In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    >> > running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?

    >>
    >> Count organisations ... not people.
    >>
    >> >
    >> > Linux is a fine OS compared to Windoze, but it is still a
    >> > toy compared to the likes of Solaris.
    >> >

    >>
    >> Oh ... you are actually Scott, hiding behind Rich's name.
    >> That's what Scott said before. Be careful of what you wish for ...
    >> Solaris may end up just like VMS.

    >
    > What do you figure happened to VMS?? VMS is still alive and
    > kicking.


    It's a bit of a pity because Linux and Windows gets all of the press.
    (The bit that doesn't deal with international situations, anyway.)

    Linux gets the good press. Microsoft Windows gets the security alerts. :-)

    Followups.

    --
    #191, ewill3@earthlink.net
    It's still legal to go .sigless.

  19. Re: Is it the biggest thing since the Internet ?

    booh! wrote:
    > Steven Hill wrote:
    >
    >>>> In theory, yes. But how many people running Linux are really
    >>>> running on something other than an x86 PeeCee?
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Count organisations ... not people.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I would have thought that most organisations would be running the OS that
    >> comes with the machine - if only for support purposes.

    >
    >
    > You mean like IBM and HP ?


    Stunned silence. SGI should be in the list too.


    >
    > Unless it is old
    >
    >> kit, in which case that is hardly going to give you production ready,
    >> datacenter hardened code...
    >>
    >> The other thing is, how many linux developers can afford big iron to
    >> develop and test on? I should imagine that there are very few.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Oh ... you mean like Open Source Development Laboratory ?:
    >
    > http://www.osdl.org/sponsors/
    > http://www.osdl.org/lab_equipment/
    > http://www.osdl.org/projects/cgl/
    > http://www.osdl.org/projects/dcl/
    >
    >
    > Look around the site
    >
    >


    Stunned silence again.

    So how many linux developers cannot afford big iron now ?
    Oh, don't forget. Linus and Andrew Morton are now at OSDL.


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