Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB - Storage

This is a discussion on Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB - Storage ; My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just triggered a SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20. The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours. OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ... ...

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Thread: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

  1. Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just triggered a
    SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.

    The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.

    OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...

    Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)

    .... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and
    75,050 hours.

    Are these numbers realistic, ie has hard disc reliability really
    improved that much? I don't think so.

    The Fujitsu datasheet ...

    http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf

    .... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.

    A log of SMART reports shows the following:

    Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC

    This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a loss
    of 84 points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly tallies
    with the spec.

    - Franc Zabkar
    --
    Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

  2. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just triggered a
    > SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.


    > The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.


    > OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...


    > Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)


    > ... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and
    > 75,050 hours.


    > Are these numbers realistic, ie has hard disc reliability really
    > improved that much? I don't think so.


    This is not reliability. This is component life under operation.
    It has improved significantly due to better lubrication
    material as has non-operating component life. Here also because
    of the move to ceramic capacitors, that basically live forever,
    while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on
    temperature and quality.

    But, no, I would say the 7.5/15 years are probably still
    longer than you can realistically expect. Typical component
    life for industrial electronics is still around 5 years.
    I guess this is just so that the range is large enough.
    It should be an "old age" attribute anyways, not a "pre-fail."

    > The Fujitsu datasheet ...


    > http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf


    > ... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.


    > A log of SMART reports shows the following:


    > Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    > Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC


    > This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a loss
    > of 84 points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly tallies
    > with the spec.


    Well, you should be prepared for your drive to become unreliable
    in the not to far future. But these values are not hard. If you
    have backup, you can continue to use them and may even get some
    more years of reliable operation. And, realistically, that is not
    too different from what a new deive gives you.

    Arno

  3. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Franc Zabkar wrote:

    > My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just
    > triggered a SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.


    > The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.


    > OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...


    > Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)


    > ... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and 75,050 hours.


    > Are these numbers realistic,


    Nope, but not for the reason you are going on about.

    > ie has hard disc reliability really improved that much? I don't think so.


    Fraid so.

    > The Fujitsu datasheet ...


    > http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf


    > ... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.


    > A log of SMART reports shows the following:


    > Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    > Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC


    > This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a loss of 84
    > points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly tallies with the spec.


    But that is a design value. There is no suggestion that the drive does deteriorate uniformly as the start/stop count
    increases.



  4. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote:
    > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    >> My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just triggered a
    >> SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.

    >
    >> The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.

    >
    >> OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...

    >
    >> Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)

    >
    >> ... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and
    >> 75,050 hours.

    >
    >> Are these numbers realistic, ie has hard disc reliability really
    >> improved that much? I don't think so.

    >
    > This is not reliability. This is component life under operation.
    > It has improved significantly due to better lubrication
    > material as has non-operating component life. Here also because
    > of the move to ceramic capacitors, that basically live forever,


    > while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.


    Fantasy.

    > But, no, I would say the 7.5/15 years are probably still
    > longer than you can realistically expect. Typical component
    > life for industrial electronics is still around 5 years.


    Like hell it is.

    > I guess this is just so that the range is large enough.
    > It should be an "old age" attribute anyways, not a "pre-fail."


    >> The Fujitsu datasheet ...


    >> http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf

    >
    >> ... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.

    >
    >> A log of SMART reports shows the following:

    >
    >> Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    >> Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC

    >
    >> This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a loss
    >> of 84 points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly
    >> tallies with the spec.


    > Well, you should be prepared for your drive to become unreliable in the not to far future.


    Mindlessly silly.

    > But these values are not hard. If you have backup, you can continue
    > to use them and may even get some more years of reliable operation.


    Gets sillier by the minute.

    > And, realistically, that is not too different from what a new deive gives you.


    Even sillier.



  5. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Previously Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote:
    > Arno Wagner wrote:
    >> Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    >>> My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just triggered a
    >>> SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.

    >>
    >>> The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.

    >>
    >>> OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...

    >>
    >>> Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)

    >>
    >>> ... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and
    >>> 75,050 hours.

    >>
    >>> Are these numbers realistic, ie has hard disc reliability really
    >>> improved that much? I don't think so.

    >>
    >> This is not reliability. This is component life under operation.
    >> It has improved significantly due to better lubrication
    >> material as has non-operating component life. Here also because
    >> of the move to ceramic capacitors, that basically live forever,


    >> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.


    > Fantasy.


    Read a datasheet.

    >> But, no, I would say the 7.5/15 years are probably still
    >> longer than you can realistically expect. Typical component
    >> life for industrial electronics is still around 5 years.


    > Like hell it is.


    Again, read a datasheet.

    >> I guess this is just so that the range is large enough.
    >> It should be an "old age" attribute anyways, not a "pre-fail."


    >>> The Fujitsu datasheet ...


    >>> http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf

    >>
    >>> ... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.

    >>
    >>> A log of SMART reports shows the following:

    >>
    >>> Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    >>> Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC

    >>
    >>> This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a loss
    >>> of 84 points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly
    >>> tallies with the spec.


    >> Well, you should be prepared for your drive to become unreliable in the not to far future.


    > Mindlessly silly.


    And again, read a datasheet.

    >> But these values are not hard. If you have backup, you can continue
    >> to use them and may even get some more years of reliable operation.


    > Gets sillier by the minute.


    And get a clue about device live statistics.

    >> And, realistically, that is not too different from what a new deive gives you.


    > Even sillier.


    You have no clue. On a guess I would say one of the usual clueless
    bigmouths, hiding behind a new name, because nobody
    listens anymore.

    Arno


  6. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote
    > Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote
    >> Arno Wagner wrote
    >>> Franc Zabkar wrote


    >>>> My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just
    >>>> triggered a SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.


    >>>> The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.


    >>>> OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...


    >>>> Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)


    >>>> ... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and 75,050 hours.


    >>>> Are these numbers realistic, ie has hard disc reliability really improved that much? I don't think so.


    >>> This is not reliability. This is component life under operation.
    >>> It has improved significantly due to better lubrication
    >>> material as has non-operating component life. Here also because
    >>> of the move to ceramic capacitors, that basically live forever,


    >>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.


    >> Fantasy.


    > Read a datasheet.


    Doesnt say a damned thing about that mindlessly silly claim.

    And have fun explaining how come the power supplys which have many more
    much bigger electros in them dont even have that 3-5 years in their datasheet.

    >>> But, no, I would say the 7.5/15 years are probably still
    >>> longer than you can realistically expect. Typical component
    >>> life for industrial electronics is still around 5 years.


    >> Like hell it is.


    > Again, read a datasheet.


    Again, have fun explaining the power supply data sheets say nothing like that
    and that fact that decent power supplys last a lot longer than that anyway.

    >>> I guess this is just so that the range is large enough.
    >>> It should be an "old age" attribute anyways, not a "pre-fail."


    >>>> The Fujitsu datasheet ...


    >>>> http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf


    >>>> ... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.


    >>>> A log of SMART reports shows the following:


    >>>> Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    >>>> Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC


    >>>> This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a
    >>>> loss of 84 points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly
    >>>> tallies with the spec.


    >>> Well, you should be prepared for your drive to become unreliable in the not to far future.


    >> Mindlessly silly.


    > And again, read a datasheet.


    And again, the datasheet says nothing like that on the drive becoming unreliable.

    >>> But these values are not hard. If you have backup, you can continue
    >>> to use them and may even get some more years of reliable operation.


    >> Gets sillier by the minute.


    > And get a clue about device live statistics.


    It you that needs to do that.

    >>> And, realistically, that is not too different from what a new deive gives you.


    >> Even sillier.


    > You have no clue.


    You in spades.

    > On a guess I would say one of the usual clueless bigmouths,
    > hiding behind a new name, because nobody listens anymore.


    Guess again. Those who reply must have done, fool.



  7. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote:

    >>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.

    >
    >> Fantasy.

    >
    >Read a datasheet.


    Umm... Arno, many (most?) of us have first-hand experience with
    electronics lasting MUCH longer than that. And of they all, in
    general, use electrolytic caps.

    In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    expected from an electronic device.


  8. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    chrisv wrote:

    >In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >expected from an electronic device.


    If you want, you can come-over and I'll fire-up my circa 1985 Amiga
    A1000 for you. (But I conceed that the HD is newer - circa 1989 8).

    Alas, my (also) circa 1985 Sony KV25XBR died within the last year,
    after over two decades of heavy use...


  9. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Franc Zabkar wrote in news:9fj0c4l07uqkpmu7ov1hn30b4qjdn6m6e7@4ax.com
    > My MPF3204AT Fujitsu 20GB HDD's Power On Time Count just triggered a
    > SMART warning after dropping below the threshold of 20.
    >
    > The raw value is currently 43763894 seconds, ie 12156 hours.
    >
    > OTOH my 120GB Seagate drive is currently at ...
    >
    > Power On Hours Count 9 0 99 99 0000000005DDh (1501)


    > ... so its expected life appears to be somewhere between 150,100 and
    > 75,050 hours.


    Based upon what?

    >
    > Are these numbers realistic, ie has hard disc reliability really
    > improved that much? I don't think so.
    >
    > The Fujitsu datasheet ...
    >
    > http://www2.fcpa.fujitsu.com/sp_supp...-datasheet.pdf
    >
    > ... specifies the number of start/stop cycles as 40,000.
    >
    > A log of SMART reports shows the following:
    >
    > Start/Stop Count 4 16 98 98 000000000578h EC
    > Start/Stop Count 4 16 97 97 00000000057Dh EC
    >
    > This suggests that each point represents about 468 starts, and a loss
    > of 84 points represents 39,340 start/stop cycles which roughly tallies
    > with the spec.
    >
    > - Franc Zabkar


  10. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote in news:6ibdi6FpgthqU1@mid.individual.net
    > Previously Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote:
    > > Arno Wagner wrote:
    > > > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:

    [snip]
    >
    > > > while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.

    >
    > > Fantasy.

    >
    > Read a datasheet.


    Maybe there are no electrolytic capacitors in my 25 year old TV then.
    Or perhaps they are of milititary spec, right, Babblebot?

    [snip]

    >
    > You have no clue.


    But you have, Babblebot. Other may call it a braintumor though.

    > On a guess I would say one of the usual clueless bigmouths,


    > hiding behind a new name,


    Unlike you, eh Babblebot.
    Clueless, big mouth, but hey, at least you use your own name.

    > because nobody listens anymore.


    Would that nobody be you, babblebot?
    Courtesy of your extensive kill file?
    Making you conveniently deaf.

    >
    > Arno


  11. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Previously chrisv wrote:
    > Arno Wagner wrote:


    >>>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.

    >>
    >>> Fantasy.

    >>
    >>Read a datasheet.


    > Umm... Arno, many (most?) of us have first-hand experience with
    > electronics lasting MUCH longer than that. And of they all, in
    > general, use electrolytic caps.


    > In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    > expected from an electronic device.


    Remember the "capacitor plague"? There the lifetime was reduced
    from about 5 years average to 1-3 years average on typical operating
    conditions. Where you hit? I was several times, the first one after
    2 years operating time of the mainboard in question.

    Then there is the thing, that the life time is not the time
    after which it fails, just the time where the probability per
    time unit starts to increase significantly. Of course some units
    will life much longer. I have several HDDs older than 5 years
    that work fine. Also the failure mode can vary greatly.
    For example, if you have a good quality PSU, probably even a total
    capacity loss of an input filter electrolythe will not matter much.
    With a bad PSU it may lead to significant problems.

    Also, we are talking about a HDD here. It may run hot. Derate
    lifetime typically at a factor of 2 per 10C. A well cooled PCB
    may be at 25C. An uncooled at 55C or more. I did not only say
    "3-5 years" , I added "depending on temperature and
    capacitor quality". I should also have added "design quality".

    What I claimed for capacitors was that circuit designers
    tend to target a 5 year lifetime at _expected_ contitions.
    Most people here will cool HDDs well. That are not the
    expected conditions anymore. But remember all the people
    that lost Maxtors early and it turned out they were not
    cooled well? Sometimes after 1-2 years?

    So predictiong lifetimes is difficult. Possibly I should
    have been far more specific. I apologize for that. But
    the numbers are not fantasy at all.

    Here is a real number from a very high quality low-ESR
    Electrolythe capacitor (Rubycon ZLH, 7mm hight): 1000h at 105C.
    Lifetime here means capacity within +/-25% of original, leakage
    still within datasheed value and dissipation (related to internal
    resistance) <= 200% of datasheet value.

    Arno

  12. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Previously chrisv wrote:
    > chrisv wrote:


    >>In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >>expected from an electronic device.


    > If you want, you can come-over and I'll fire-up my circa 1985 Amiga
    > A1000 for you. (But I conceed that the HD is newer - circa 1989 8).


    No need, I have an Atari ST that works fine. But this
    is not "lifetime". This is "shelf live unoperational". And that
    Atari ST has some replaced electrolythes, because I had to fix them
    to solve a stability problem.

    > Alas, my (also) circa 1985 Sony KV25XBR died within the last year,
    > after over two decades of heavy use...


    Good design then. My (expensive) Sony Vaio died after 2 years of
    light use. The cause was chipset overheating due to inadequate
    cooling.

    It just boild down to several things:

    - Treat electronics well and they will live longer
    - It is statistics. Lifetime is just when failures start to get more
    likely. Some things die withing a year, some keep 20 years. Can
    still be 5 years lifetime.
    - Not all failures kill a thing. Some do not matter at all.
    - Personal experience is not a global predictor.

    Arno


  13. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote:
    > Previously chrisv wrote:
    >> chrisv wrote:

    >
    >>> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >>> expected from an electronic device.

    >
    >> If you want, you can come-over and I'll fire-up my circa 1985 Amiga
    >> A1000 for you. (But I conceed that the HD is newer - circa 1989
    >> 8).

    >
    > No need, I have an Atari ST that works fine. But
    > this is not "lifetime". This is "shelf live unoperational".


    Plenty have had TVs work fine for that long, including me.
    And that isnt shelf life unoperational, thats daily use.

    > And that Atari ST has some replaced electrolythes,
    > because I had to fix them to solve a stability problem.


    And most of us have had TVs that havent needed any electos replaced.

    >> Alas, my (also) circa 1985 Sony KV25XBR died within the last year,
    >> after over two decades of heavy use...


    > Good design then. My (expensive) Sony Vaio died after 2 years of
    > light use. The cause was chipset overheating due to inadequate cooling.


    > It just boild down to several things:


    > - Treat electronics well and they will live longer


    Treat a properly designed TV normally and it will last a hell of lot longer than your mindlessly silly claim at the top.

    > - It is statistics. Lifetime is just when failures start to get more likely.
    > Some things die withing a year, some keep 20 years. Can still be 5 years lifetime.


    Not when the vast bulk of TVs do a lot better than 5 years.

    > - Not all failures kill a thing. Some do not matter at all.
    > - Personal experience is not a global predictor.


    Decent stats are tho.



  14. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    chrisv wrote
    > Arno Wagner wrote


    >>>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on temperature and quality.


    >>> Fantasy.


    >> Read a datasheet.


    > Umm... Arno, many (most?) of us have first-hand experience with
    > electronics lasting MUCH longer than that. And of they all, in
    > general, use electrolytic caps.


    > In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine
    > and, really, expected from an electronic device.


    Yeah, he's never had a clue about the basics.



  15. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote:
    > Previously chrisv wrote:
    >> Arno Wagner wrote:

    >
    >>>>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on
    >>>>> temperature and quality.
    >>>
    >>>> Fantasy.
    >>>
    >>> Read a datasheet.

    >
    >> Umm... Arno, many (most?) of us have first-hand experience with
    >> electronics lasting MUCH longer than that. And of they all, in
    >> general, use electrolytic caps.

    >
    >> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >> expected from an electronic device.


    > Remember the "capacitor plague"?


    Its irrelevant to that claim of yours at the top.

    > There the lifetime was reduced from about 5 years average


    You've plucked that from your arse. We can tell from the smell.

    > to 1-3 years average on typical operating conditions. Where you hit?


    I have had just one device affected out of dozens that werent.

    > I was several times, the first one after 2 years operating time of the mainboard in question.


    Irrelevant to that stupid claim of yours at the top.

    > Then there is the thing, that the life time is not the time
    > after which it fails, just the time where the probability
    > per time unit starts to increase significantly.


    Not generally a problem with modern hard drives.

    > Of course some units will life much longer. I have
    > several HDDs older than 5 years that work fine.


    In fact of all of mine, only 1 doesnt.

    > Also the failure mode can vary greatly. For example, if you
    > have a good quality PSU, probably even a total capacity
    > loss of an input filter electrolythe will not matter much.


    Wont matter at all in fact. So that claim of yours at the top is mindlessly silly.

    > With a bad PSU it may lead to significant problems.


    > Also, we are talking about a HDD here. It may run hot.
    > Derate lifetime typically at a factor of 2 per 10C.


    Another number straight from your arse. We can tell from the smell.

    > A well cooled PCB may be at 25C. An uncooled at 55C or more.
    > I did not only say "3-5 years" , I added "depending on temperature
    > and capacitor quality". I should also have added "design quality".


    You also made stupid claims about the datasheet.

    > What I claimed for capacitors was that circuit designers
    > tend to target a 5 year lifetime at _expected_ contitions.


    No they dont, most obviously with power supplys.

    > Most people here will cool HDDs well. That are not
    > the expected conditions anymore. But remember all
    > the people that lost Maxtors early and it turned out they
    > were not cooled well? Sometimes after 1-2 years?


    Irrelevant to hard drives in general.

    > So predictiong lifetimes is difficult.


    And your claim right at the top is mindlessly silly.

    > Possibly I should have been far more specific. I apologize
    > for that. But the numbers are not fantasy at all.


    The numbers at the top are pure fantasy.

    > Here is a real number from a very high quality low-ESR
    > Electrolythe capacitor (Rubycon ZLH, 7mm hight): 1000h at 105C.
    > Lifetime here means capacity within +/-25% of original, leakage
    > still within datasheed value and dissipation (related to internal
    > resistance) <= 200% of datasheet value.


    Irrelevant to hard drives where that doesnt matter.



  16. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Previously Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote:
    > Arno Wagner wrote:
    >> Previously chrisv wrote:
    >>> chrisv wrote:

    >>
    >>>> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >>>> expected from an electronic device.

    >>
    >>> If you want, you can come-over and I'll fire-up my circa 1985 Amiga
    >>> A1000 for you. (But I conceed that the HD is newer - circa 1989
    >>> 8).

    >>
    >> No need, I have an Atari ST that works fine. But
    >> this is not "lifetime". This is "shelf live unoperational".


    > Plenty have had TVs work fine for that long, including me.
    > And that isnt shelf life unoperational, thats daily use.


    And that is a TV, not a HDD and has different engineering
    parameters.

    >> And that Atari ST has some replaced electrolythes,
    >> because I had to fix them to solve a stability problem.


    > And most of us have had TVs that havent needed any electos replaced.


    See above.

    >>> Alas, my (also) circa 1985 Sony KV25XBR died within the last year,
    >>> after over two decades of heavy use...


    >> Good design then. My (expensive) Sony Vaio died after 2 years of
    >> light use. The cause was chipset overheating due to inadequate cooling.


    >> It just boild down to several things:


    >> - Treat electronics well and they will live longer


    > Treat a properly designed TV normally and it will last a hell of lot longer than your mindlessly silly claim at the top.


    No argument from me. But the TV set comparison is completely
    besides the point.

    >> - It is statistics. Lifetime is just when failures start to get more likely.
    >> Some things die withing a year, some keep 20 years. Can still be 5 years lifetime.


    > Not when the vast bulk of TVs do a lot better than 5 years.


    Huh? Did you read the sentence I wrote?

    >> - Not all failures kill a thing. Some do not matter at all.
    >> - Personal experience is not a global predictor.


    > Decent stats are tho.


    Indeed.

    Arno


  17. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Previously Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote:
    > Arno Wagner wrote:
    >> Previously chrisv wrote:
    >>> Arno Wagner wrote:

    >>
    >>>>>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on
    >>>>>> temperature and quality.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Fantasy.
    >>>>
    >>>> Read a datasheet.

    >>
    >>> Umm... Arno, many (most?) of us have first-hand experience with
    >>> electronics lasting MUCH longer than that. And of they all, in
    >>> general, use electrolytic caps.

    >>
    >>> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >>> expected from an electronic device.


    >> Remember the "capacitor plague"?


    > Its irrelevant to that claim of yours at the top.


    >> There the lifetime was reduced from about 5 years average


    > You've plucked that from your arse. We can tell from the smell.


    You did obviously not read an analysis of that problem and the
    normal situation it is compared with.

    Consult the IEEE Spectrum, for example.

    Incidentially *plonk* for incompetence, baseless insults
    and a big mouth.

    Arno


  18. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote
    > Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote
    >> Arno Wagner wrote
    >>> chrisv wrote
    >>>> chrisv wrote


    >>>>> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine
    >>>>> and, really, expected from an electronic device.


    >>>> If you want, you can come-over and I'll fire-up my circa 1985 Amiga
    >>>> A1000 for you. (But I conceed that the HD is newer - circa 1989 8).


    >>> No need, I have an Atari ST that works fine. But
    >>> this is not "lifetime". This is "shelf live unoperational".


    >> Plenty have had TVs work fine for that long, including me.
    >> And that isnt shelf life unoperational, thats daily use.


    > And that is a TV, not a HDD and has different engineering parameters.


    He said AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE at the top and
    clearly more than just hard drives are being discussed.

    And you yourself made silly claims about electros, not just hard drives too.

    >>> And that Atari ST has some replaced electrolythes,
    >>> because I had to fix them to solve a stability problem.


    >> And most of us have had TVs that havent needed any electos replaced.


    > See above.


    See above.

    >>>> Alas, my (also) circa 1985 Sony KV25XBR died within
    >>>> the last year, after over two decades of heavy use...


    >>> Good design then. My (expensive) Sony Vaio died after 2 years of
    >>> light use. The cause was chipset overheating due to inadequate cooling.


    >>> It just boild down to several things:


    >>> - Treat electronics well and they will live longer


    >> Treat a properly designed TV normally and it will last a
    >> hell of lot longer than your mindlessly silly claim at the top.


    > No argument from me. But the TV set comparison is completely besides the point.


    Nope, not when you made a completely silly claim about electros and even you should
    have noticed that TVs and power supplys have a lot more of those than do hard drives.

    >>> - It is statistics. Lifetime is just when failures start to get
    >>> more likely. Some things die withing a year, some keep 20 years.
    >>> Can still be 5 years lifetime.


    >> Not when the vast bulk of TVs do a lot better than 5 years.


    > Huh? Did you read the sentence I wrote?


    Yep, the lifetime is clearly a lot more than 5 years when the vast bulk of them do a hell of a lot better than 5 years
    and when they dont last that long, its usually the components which arent seen in hard drives that fail in that time.

    >>> - Not all failures kill a thing. Some do not matter at all.
    >>> - Personal experience is not a global predictor.


    >> Decent stats are tho.


    > Indeed.


    And even you should have noticed that most hard drives last a lot longer than the 5 year design life SOME datasheets
    specify.



  19. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote
    > Previously Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote:
    >> Arno Wagner wrote:
    >>> Previously chrisv wrote:
    >>>> Arno Wagner wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>>>> while electrolytes die after 3-5 years or so, depending on
    >>>>>>> temperature and quality.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Fantasy.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Read a datasheet.
    >>>
    >>>> Umm... Arno, many (most?) of us have first-hand experience with
    >>>> electronics lasting MUCH longer than that. And of they all, in
    >>>> general, use electrolytic caps.
    >>>
    >>>> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine and, really,
    >>>> expected from an electronic device.

    >
    >>> Remember the "capacitor plague"?

    >
    >> Its irrelevant to that claim of yours at the top.

    >
    >>> There the lifetime was reduced from about 5 years average

    >
    >> You've plucked that from your arse. We can tell from the smell.


    > You did obviously not read an analysis of that problem
    > and the normal situation it is compared with.


    Wrong, as always.

    > Consult the IEEE Spectrum, for example.


    Have a look at what google reported on their own hard drives.

    And then use a VERY large towel on your face.

    > Incidentially *plonk* for incompetence, baseless insults and a big mouth.


    Fat lot of good that will do you, you stupid plonker.



  20. Re: Power On Time Count SMART warning for Fujitsu 20GB

    Arno Wagner wrote
    > Simon <192900@spam.com> wrote
    >> Arno Wagner wrote
    >>> chrisv wrote
    >>>> chrisv wrote


    >>>>> In my experience, 10+ years of lifetime is routine
    >>>>> and, really, expected from an electronic device.


    >>>> If you want, you can come-over and I'll fire-up my circa 1985 Amiga
    >>>> A1000 for you. (But I conceed that the HD is newer - circa 1989 8).


    >>> No need, I have an Atari ST that works fine. But
    >>> this is not "lifetime". This is "shelf live unoperational".


    >> Plenty have had TVs work fine for that long, including me.
    >> And that isnt shelf life unoperational, thats daily use.


    > And that is a TV, not a HDD and has different engineering parameters.


    He said AN ELECTRONIC DEVICE at the top and
    clearly more than just hard drives are being discussed.

    And you yourself made silly claims about electros, not just hard drives too.

    >>> And that Atari ST has some replaced electrolythes,
    >>> because I had to fix them to solve a stability problem.


    >> And most of us have had TVs that havent needed any electos replaced.


    > See above.


    See above.

    >>>> Alas, my (also) circa 1985 Sony KV25XBR died within
    >>>> the last year, after over two decades of heavy use...


    >>> Good design then. My (expensive) Sony Vaio died after 2 years of
    >>> light use. The cause was chipset overheating due to inadequate cooling.


    >>> It just boild down to several things:


    >>> - Treat electronics well and they will live longer


    >> Treat a properly designed TV normally and it will last a
    >> hell of lot longer than your mindlessly silly claim at the top.


    > No argument from me. But the TV set comparison is completely besides the point.


    Nope, not when you made a completely silly claim about electros and even you should
    have noticed that TVs and power supplys have a lot more of those than do hard drives.

    >>> - It is statistics. Lifetime is just when failures start to get
    >>> more likely. Some things die withing a year, some keep 20 years.
    >>> Can still be 5 years lifetime.


    >> Not when the vast bulk of TVs do a lot better than 5 years.


    > Huh? Did you read the sentence I wrote?


    Yep, the lifetime is clearly a lot more than 5 years when the vast bulk of them do a hell of a lot better than 5 years
    and when they dont last that long, its usually the components which arent seen in hard drives that fail in that time.

    >>> - Not all failures kill a thing. Some do not matter at all.
    >>> - Personal experience is not a global predictor.


    >> Decent stats are tho.


    > Indeed.


    And even you should have noticed that most hard drives last a lot longer than the 5 year design life SOME datasheets
    specify.



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