Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages - Storage

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Thread: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

  1. Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig
    Travelstar please? I suppose it IS safe to use them? Isn't that what they
    are for?

    I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it failed
    the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error message. I
    could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the machine would work
    for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so before cutting dead.
    The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month
    or so.

    However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
    running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???

    I then went into windows and the problem persists.

    Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message 0x00, In
    fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters. I must
    have run it about ten times in a row by now.

    Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

    Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones or is there any more
    exhaustive test I can run which could tell me whether this drive is going to
    be reliable? I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)



  2. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote:

    > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig Travelstar please?


    It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.

    > I suppose it IS safe to use them?


    Not if the data isnt fully backed up.

    > Isn't that what they are for?


    Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.

    > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard
    > drive failure error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the machine would work for
    > sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so before cutting dead.


    Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS defaults wouldnt make any difference.

    > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month or so.


    Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common to that motherboard.

    > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and running sector repair just results in a
    > COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???


    Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent actually bad.

    > I then went into windows and the problem persists.


    Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.

    > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters.


    Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even with a dying drive.

    > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.


    > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.


    Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.

    > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones


    Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me whether this drive is going to be reliable?


    Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the drive.
    http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)


    Then download another.



  3. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Previously news.rcn.com wrote:
    > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig
    > Travelstar please? I suppose it IS safe to use them? Isn't that what they
    > are for?


    > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it failed
    > the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error message. I
    > could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the machine would work
    > for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so before cutting dead.
    > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month
    > or so.


    > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
    > running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???


    > I then went into windows and the problem persists.


    > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message 0x00, In
    > fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters. I must
    > have run it about ten times in a row by now.


    > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.


    > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones or is there any
    > more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me whether this
    > drive is going to be reliable? I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)


    AFAIK DFT just runns a long SMART selftest. For modern disks there
    really is not a lot more that you can do. However there are more detailed
    resukts you can get. Get the SMART attributes with one of the
    numeorus SMRT tools out there. Personally I use the smartmontools
    (unerd Linux, also available as commandline tools under Windows).
    Other options are speedfan and everest. Best post the attributes
    here to get feedback.

    Arno


  4. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Arno Wagner wrote in news:6f9vjaFa3relU1@mid.individual.net
    > Previously news.rcn.com wrote:
    > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig
    > > Travelstar please?


    > I suppose it IS safe to use them?


    Of course not.

    > Isn't that what they are for?


    Depends on what you are rambling on about. What's a spare cluster.

    >
    > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it failed
    > > the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error message.
    > > I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the machine would work
    > > for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so before cutting dead.
    > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month
    > > or so.


    > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters


    No it doesn't.

    > > and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???

    >
    > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.

    >
    > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message 0x00, In
    > > fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters. I must
    > > have run it about ten times in a row by now.

    >
    > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away.


    Isn't that a problem!

    > > No further dead
    > > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.


    How disappointing.

    >
    > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones or is there any
    > > more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me whether this
    > > drive is going to be reliable? I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)


    > AFAIK DFT just runns a long SMART selftest.


    SLTYK (so little that you know), Babblebot.

    > For modern disks there really is not a lot more that you can do.


    Like that modern drives are 100% different from a few years back,
    moronic Babblebot.

    > However there are more detailed
    > resukts you can get. Get the SMART attributes with one of the
    > numeorus SMRT tools out there. Personally I use the smartmontools
    > (unerd Linux, also available as commandline tools under Windows).
    > Other options are speedfan and everest.


    > Best post the attributes here to get feedback.


    Like that anyone here ever gets it right.

    >
    > Arno


  5. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages


    "Rod Speed" wrote in message
    news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
    > news.rcn.com wrote:
    >
    >> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig
    >> Travelstar please?

    >
    > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
    >
    >> I suppose it IS safe to use them?

    >
    > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
    >
    >> Isn't that what they are for?

    >
    > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
    >
    >> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    >> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
    >> message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
    >> machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so
    >> before cutting dead.

    >
    > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
    > defaults wouldnt make any difference.
    >
    >> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last
    >> month or so.

    >
    > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common
    > to that motherboard.

    No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse was
    completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the mobo, this is the
    first I have seen of it
    >
    >> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
    >> running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???

    >
    > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent
    > actually bad.

    That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much; This
    is why I posted!!
    >> I then went into windows and the problem persists.

    >
    > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
    >
    >> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    >> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
    >> clusters.

    >
    > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even
    > with a dying drive.
    >
    >> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.

    >
    >> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    >> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

    >
    > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
    >
    >> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones

    >
    > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away BUT
    I did download the everest tool you mentioned
    >
    >> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    >> whether this drive is going to be reliable?

    >
    > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the
    > drive.
    > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or so and
    reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
    >> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)

    >
    > Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a
    > slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
    > burning it to the CD?)




  6. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages


    "news.rcn.com" wrote in message
    news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
    >
    > "Rod Speed" wrote in message
    > news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
    >> news.rcn.com wrote:
    >>
    >>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120
    >>> Gig Travelstar please?

    >>
    >> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
    >>
    >>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?

    >>
    >> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
    >>
    >>> Isn't that what they are for?

    >>
    >> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
    >>
    >>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    >>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
    >>> message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
    >>> machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so
    >>> before cutting dead.

    >>
    >> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
    >> defaults wouldnt make any difference.
    >>
    >>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last
    >>> month or so.

    >>
    >> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common
    >> to that motherboard.

    > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse
    > was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the mobo, this is
    > the first I have seen of it
    >>
    >>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
    >>> running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY
    >>> message???

    >>
    >> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent
    >> actually bad.

    Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was OK

    There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5 which it
    said was within normal paramters. 5 seems like the sort of figure produced
    by a SMART sector replacement. I ran DFT at least ten times before it
    reported that there were no (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call
    Acer and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the
    motherboard as you describe?

    This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone away and I
    have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which is actually wrong??
    I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem comes back before the
    warranty expires

    I should have said
    > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much; This
    > is why I posted!!
    >>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.

    >>
    >> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
    >>
    >>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    >>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
    >>> clusters.

    >>
    >> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even
    >> with a dying drive.
    >>
    >>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.

    >>
    >>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    >>> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

    >>
    >> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
    >>
    >>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones

    >>
    >> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away
    > BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
    >>
    >>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    >>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?

    >>
    >> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the
    >> drive.
    >> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    > Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or so and
    > reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
    >>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)

    >>
    >> Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a
    >> slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
    >> burning it to the CD?)

    >
    >




  7. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote in news:w8-dnRhjZK5iNQzVnZ2dnUVZ_uednZ2d@rcn.net
    > "news.rcn.com" wrote in message news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
    > > "Rod Speed" rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
    > > > news.rcn.com wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120
    > > > > Gig Travelstar please?
    > > >
    > > > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
    > > >
    > > > > I suppose it IS safe to use them?
    > > >
    > > > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
    > > >
    > > > > Isn't that what they are for?
    > > >
    > > > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
    > > >
    > > > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    > > > > failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
    > > > > message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
    > > > > machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or so
    > > > > before cutting dead.
    > > >
    > > > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
    > > > defaults wouldnt make any difference.
    > > >
    > > > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last
    > > > > month or so.
    > > >
    > > > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common
    > > > to that motherboard.

    >
    > > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse
    > > was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the mobo, this is
    > > the first I have seen of it
    > > >
    > > > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and
    > > > > running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY
    > > > > message???
    > > >
    > > > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent
    > > > actually bad.


    > Sorry, I was asked to post a report


    Yes. Anytime soon now?

    > and just said that everything was OK


    And now you fall to the same mistake, isn't it.

    >
    > There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5 which it
    > said was within normal paramters.


    > 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.


    Yeah, obviously. What else could it be, right?
    Obviously SMART wouldn't have anything to do with it if it had been a hundred or more.
    Then the fairies take over.

    > I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no (more) bad sectors.


    There's a clue in there somewhere.

    > I wonder if I should call Acer and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the
    > motherboard as you describe?


    Only if it's the powersupply regulation on the board.
    With 2 replacements already that isn't very likely.
    More likely it's the drive itself or the drive caddy.

    >
    > This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone away and I
    > have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which is actually wrong??


    Yeah, you have a working laptop. That's obviously not good.

    > I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem comes back before the
    > warranty expires


    > I should have said


    You a disorganized type of guy, yes?

    > > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;
    > > This is why I posted!!
    > >
    > > > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.
    > > >
    > > > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
    > > >
    > > > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    > > > > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
    > > > > clusters.
    > > >
    > > > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even
    > > > with a dying drive.
    > > >
    > > > > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
    > > >
    > > > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    > > > > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.
    > > >
    > > > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
    > > >
    > > > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
    > > >
    > > > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    > >
    > > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away
    > > BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
    > > >
    > > > > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    > > > > whether this drive is going to be reliable?
    > > >
    > > > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the
    > > > drive.
    > > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    > >
    > > Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or so and
    > > reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
    > >
    > > > > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
    > > >
    > > > Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a
    > > > slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
    > > > burning it to the CD?)


  8. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote
    > Rod Speed wrote
    >> news.rcn.com wrote


    >>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig Travelstar please?


    >> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.


    >>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?


    >> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.


    >>> Isn't that what they are for?


    >> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.


    >>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    >>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
    >>> message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
    >>> machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or
    >>> so before cutting dead.


    >> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS defaults wouldnt make any difference.


    >>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month or so.


    >> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common to that motherboard.


    > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse was completely inoperative.


    OK, the either its a rather unreliable motherboard or that pure bad luck or you've been furiously grave dancing again.

    > If this is a problem with the mobo, this is the first I have seen of it


    The SMART report will allow you to work out whether its the drive or the motherboard.

    >>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and running sector repair just results in a
    >>> COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???


    >> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent actually bad.


    > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;


    I didnt mean it like that. A positive message does mean that the fault isnt currently visible.

    > This is why I posted!!


    >>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.


    >> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.


    >>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    >>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters.


    >> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even with a dying drive.


    >>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.


    >>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    >>> clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.


    >> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.


    >>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones


    >> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.


    > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away BUT I did download the everest tool you
    > mentioned


    >>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    >>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?


    >> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the drive.
    >> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181


    > Everything checks out successfully on SMART.


    Sorry, I meant post the report here, dont just use the OKs, those are meaninless.

    > It ran in a second or so and reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.


    Post it here. Its the last number in each field that
    matters and even then, interpreting those isnt trivial.

    >>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)


    >> Then download another.


    > (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
    > burning it to the CD?)


    You can get it in ready to use form using torrents.



  9. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote:
    > "news.rcn.com" wrote in message
    > news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
    >>
    >> "Rod Speed" wrote in message
    >> news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
    >>> news.rcn.com wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a
    >>>> 120 Gig Travelstar please?
    >>>
    >>> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
    >>>
    >>>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?
    >>>
    >>> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
    >>>
    >>>> Isn't that what they are for?
    >>>
    >>> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
    >>>
    >>>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    >>>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure
    >>>> error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows
    >>>> and the machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes
    >>>> a day or so before cutting dead.
    >>>
    >>> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
    >>> defaults wouldnt make any difference.
    >>>
    >>>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the
    >>>> last month or so.
    >>>
    >>> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats
    >>> common to that motherboard.

    >> No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the
    >> mouse was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the
    >> mobo, this is the first I have seen of it
    >>>
    >>>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead
    >>>> clusters and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED
    >>>> SUCCESSFULLY message???
    >>>
    >>> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that
    >>> arent actually bad.


    > Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was OK


    > There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5


    And that shows that the drive has some bad sectors that have been replaced.

    There are other relevant fields like pending and sectors that cant be replaced.

    > which it said was within normal paramters.


    It always does with the OK even with very dead drives.

    > 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.


    Yes, those sectors have been replaced. SMART is just reporting that.

    > I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call Acer
    > and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the motherboard as you describe?


    Nope, it indicates that the drive is going bad.

    That may be the only problem.

    > This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone away and I have in effect nothing to show Acer on
    > this Mobo which is actually wrong??


    Correct. But a drive that develops that many bad sectors will
    usually develop more unless you were just badly overheating
    the drive because its not been adequately cooled.

    > I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem
    > comes back before the warranty expires


    It should do unless you were just badly overheating the drive
    because its not been adequately cooled and that doesnt recur.
    No need to replace the drive if that was the problem tho.

    Post the full SMART report to be sure that there isnt more
    useful information in it than just those replaced sectors.

    It should report on the drive max temp too with a Hitachi drive.

    Dont worry about 'squeeze', he's just some loon we keep in a padded cell for his own protection.

    >> I should have said
    >> That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean
    >> much; This is why I posted!!
    >>>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.
    >>>
    >>> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
    >>>
    >>>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    >>>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
    >>>> clusters.
    >>>
    >>> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some
    >>> faults, even with a dying drive.
    >>>
    >>>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
    >>>
    >>>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further
    >>>> dead clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in
    >>>> Windows.
    >>>
    >>> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
    >>>
    >>>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
    >>>
    >>> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    >> Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone
    >> away BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
    >>>
    >>>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    >>>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?
    >>>
    >>> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for
    >>> the drive.
    >>> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    >> Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or
    >> so and reports that everything passes the test and is within
    >> parameters.
    >>>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
    >>>
    >>> Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve
    >>> creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO
    >>> out of that and burning it to the CD?)




  10. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Rod Speed wrote in news:6fel3rFb6rjfU1@mid.individual.net
    > news.rcn.com wrote:
    > > "news.rcn.com" fountainpen@amexol.com> wrote in message news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
    > > > "Rod Speed" rod.speed.aaa@gmail.com> wrote in message news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
    > > > > news.rcn.com wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a
    > > > > > 120 Gig Travelstar please?
    > > > >
    > > > > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I suppose it IS safe to use them?
    > > > >
    > > > > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Isn't that what they are for?
    > > > >
    > > > > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    > > > > > failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure
    > > > > > error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows
    > > > > > and the machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes
    > > > > > a day or so before cutting dead.
    > > > >
    > > > > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
    > > > > defaults wouldnt make any difference.
    > > > >
    > > > > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the
    > > > > > last month or so.
    > > > >
    > > > > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats
    > > > > common to that motherboard.
    > > > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the
    > > > mouse was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the
    > > > mobo, this is the first I have seen of it
    > > > >
    > > > > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead
    > > > > > clusters and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED
    > > > > > SUCCESSFULLY message???
    > > > >
    > > > > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that
    > > > > arent actually bad.

    >
    > > Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was OK

    >
    > > There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5

    >
    > And that shows that the drive has some bad sectors that have been replaced.


    Yes Rod, that's what he said. Your reading abilities are uncanny.

    >
    > There are other relevant fields like pending


    > and sectors that cant be replaced.


    No such field.
    >
    > > which it said was within normal paramters.


    > It always does with the OK even with very dead drives.


    Nope.

    >
    > > 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.

    >
    > Yes, those sectors have been replaced. SMART is just reporting that.
    >
    > > I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no
    > > (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call Acer and ask them if they
    > > think this points to a problem with the motherboard as you describe?

    >
    > Nope, it indicates that the drive is going bad.
    >
    > That may be the only problem.
    >
    > > This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone
    > > away and I have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which
    > > is actually wrong??


    > Correct. But a drive that develops that many bad sectors


    Yeah, a whopping 5. The drive is obviously deader than a door nail.

    > will usually develop more unless you were just badly overheating
    > the drive because its not been adequately cooled.
    >
    > > I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem
    > > comes back before the warranty expires

    >
    > It should do unless you were just badly overheating the drive
    > because its not been adequately cooled and that doesnt recur.
    > No need to replace the drive if that was the problem tho.
    >
    > Post the full SMART report to be sure that there isnt more
    > useful information in it than just those replaced sectors.
    >
    > It should report on the drive max temp too with a Hitachi drive.


    > Dont worry about 'squeeze', he's just some loon we keep in a padded
    > cell for his own protection.


    Yes please, offer your wallet to the friendly pickpocket.
    He will keep it in safe storage for you.

    >
    > > > I should have said
    > > > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;
    > > > This is why I posted!!
    > > > > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.
    > > > >
    > > > > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    > > > > > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
    > > > > > clusters.
    > > > >
    > > > > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some
    > > > > faults, even with a dying drive.
    > > > >
    > > > > > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further
    > > > > > dead clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in
    > > > > > Windows.
    > > > >
    > > > > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
    > > > >
    > > > > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
    > > > >
    > > > > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.
    > > > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has
    > > > gone away BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
    > > > >
    > > > > > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    > > > > > whether this drive is going to be reliable?
    > > > >
    > > > > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for
    > > > > the drive.
    > > > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181
    > > > Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or
    > > > so and reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.
    > > > > > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
    > > > >
    > > > > Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve
    > > > > creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO
    > > > > out of that and burning it to the CD?)


  11. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Rod Speed wrote in news:6fekkgFb9h04U1@mid.individual.net
    > news.rcn.com wrote
    > > Rod Speed wrote
    > > > news.rcn.com wrote

    >
    > > > > Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a 120 Gig Travelstar please?

    >
    > > > It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.

    >
    > > > > I suppose it IS safe to use them?

    >
    > > > Not if the data isnt fully backed up.

    >
    > > > > Isn't that what they are for?

    >
    > > > Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.

    >
    > > > > I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    > > > > failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure error
    > > > > message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows and the
    > > > > machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes a day or
    > > > > so before cutting dead.

    >
    > > > Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS defaults wouldnt make any difference.

    >
    > > > > The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the last month or so.

    >
    > > > Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats common to that motherboard.

    >
    > > No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the mouse was completely inoperative.

    >
    > OK, the either its a rather unreliable motherboard or that pure bad luck or you've been furiously grave dancing again.
    >
    > > If this is a problem with the mobo, this is the first I have seen of it


    > The SMART report will allow you to work out whether its the drive or the motherboard.


    Nope, it won't.

    >
    > > > > However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead clusters and running sector repair just results in a
    > > > > COMPLETED SUCCESSFULLY message???

    >
    > > > Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that arent actually bad.

    >
    > > That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean much;


    > I didnt mean it like that. A positive message does mean that the fault isnt currently visible.


    IOW, doesn't mean much. Thanks Rod for clarifying that. That's very helpful of you.

    >
    > > This is why I posted!!

    >
    > > > > I then went into windows and the problem persists.

    >
    > > > Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.

    >
    > > > > Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    > > > > 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead clusters.

    >
    > > > Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some faults, even with a dying drive.

    >
    > > > > I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.

    >
    > > > > Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further dead
    > > > > clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in Windows.

    >
    > > > Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.

    >
    > > > > Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones

    >
    > > > Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    >
    > > Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone away BUT I did download the everest tool you
    > > mentioned

    >
    > > > > or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    > > > > whether this drive is going to be reliable?

    >
    > > > Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for the drive.
    > > > http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    >
    > > Everything checks out successfully on SMART.


    > Sorry, I meant post the report here, dont just use the OKs, those are meaninless.


    Yeah, you were obviously rather unclear about that.
    You should watch your language better.

    >
    > > It ran in a second or so and reports that everything passes the test and is within parameters.

    >
    > Post it here. Its the last number in each field that
    > matters and even then, interpreting those isnt trivial.


    Yeah, as you have so often shown.

    >
    > > > > I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)

    >
    > > > Then download another.

    >
    > > (is it that easy? Or does it involve creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO out of that and
    > > burning it to the CD?)

    >
    > You can get it in ready to use form using torrents.


  12. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was
    unable to find exception in any of it:

    [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]

    01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    normal
    02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    normal
    03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK:
    Value is normal
    04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK:
    Always passing
    05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    normal
    07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK: Value
    is normal
    08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    normal
    09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK: Always
    passing
    0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK: Value
    is normal
    0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK: Always
    passing
    BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK: Always
    passing
    C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK: Always
    passing
    C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK: Always
    passing
    C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42 OK:
    Always passing
    C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK: Always
    passing
    C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
    C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
    C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always
    passing

    (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to download
    anything from them)



  13. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote:

    > The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was unable to find exception in any of it:


    Comments interleaved.

    > [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]


    > 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK:
    > Value is normal
    > 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    > Value is normal
    > 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK: Value is normal
    > 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK: Always passing
    > 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK:


    This is the bad sectors, its clearly zero. Where did you get your 5 from ?

    Maybe DFT is resetting the SMART data tho.

    > Value is normal
    > 07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK:
    > Value is normal
    > 08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value
    > is normal
    > 09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK:
    > Always passing
    > 0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK:
    > Value is normal
    > 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK:
    > Always passing
    > BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK:
    > Always passing
    > C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK:
    > Always passing
    > C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK: Always
    > passing
    > C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42


    That max of 42C is fine, so the bads cant have come from the drive
    getting stinking hot unless this SMART value has been reset too.

    > OK: Always passing
    > C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK:


    Thats not good. That does indicate a drive which has a problem.

    > Always passing
    > C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count
    > 0 100 100 0 OK:
    > Always passing


    Very unusual to have a high reallocation event count and yet no reallocated
    sectors and no pending sectors and no uncorrectable sectors.

    Looks like there is a problem with the drive, which is currently behaving itself.

    > C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always passing


    > (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to download anything from them)


    Yeah, there certainly is some risk involved.



  14. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote
    > Rod Speed wrote
    >> news.rcn.com wrote


    >>> The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was unable to find exception in any of it:


    >> Comments interleaved.


    >>> [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]


    >>> 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK:
    >>> Value is normal
    >>> 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    >>> Value is normal
    >>> 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2
    >>> OK: Value is normal
    >>> 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310
    >>> OK: Always passing
    >>> 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK:


    >> This is the bad sectors, its clearly zero. Where did you get your 5 from ?


    >> Maybe DFT is resetting the SMART data tho.


    Unlikely given that C4 hasnt been reset.

    > Surely that would imply an infinite number of spare sectors to
    > replace bad ones if it resets SMART every time it finds one?


    Nope, just that the SMART data doesnt specify how many have been reallocated.

    Says nothing about how many spares there are available.

    > There would be no way of establishing how many have been used?


    Correct, but thats an entirely separate issue to how many spares there are.

    > I tried calling Hitachi and asking them how to access the log which it says is appended when DFT runs and they confirm
    > that it is placed on the floppy and not on the drive. So if you run from CD you dont get a Log.


    Makes sense. Ask them if DFT ever resets the SMART counts.

    >>> Value is normal
    >>> 07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK: Value is normal
    >>> 08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    >>> Value is normal
    >>> 09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK:
    >>> Always passing
    >>> 0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK:
    >>> Value is normal
    >>> 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK:
    >>> Always passing
    >>> BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK:
    >>> Always passing
    >>> C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK:
    >>> Always passing
    >>> C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK:
    >>> Always passing
    >>> C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42


    >> That max of 42C is fine, so the bads cant have come from the drive
    >> getting stinking hot unless this SMART value has been reset too.


    > No this drive doesnt get particularly hot at all.


    >>> OK: Always passing
    >>> C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK:


    >> Thats not good. That does indicate a drive which has a problem.


    >>> Always passing
    >>> C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always
    >>> passing C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK:
    >>> Always passing


    >> Very unusual to have a high reallocation event count and yet no reallocated
    >> sectors and no pending sectors and no uncorrectable sectors.


    >> Looks like there is a problem with the drive, which is currently behaving itself.


    > So back to the OP: How can I test this


    The SMART data is how you get a report on whats happened with the drive.

    > or do I just have to wait until it shows symptoms or actually fails?


    Not clear if Hitachi will swap that drive just because of that C4 count.

    I have been known to physically kill a drive with an intermittent
    fault so they had no choice but to swap it. You need to know
    what you are doing to be able to kill it in a way they cant just
    say was your fault and they wont swap it tho.

    Those drives have a shock sensor and its reported in the SMART data.

    > (No, I am not bothered by Squeeze's comments that I shouldnt be worried if I dont receive an error message because
    > everything is obviously OK)


    That was a sarcastic comment anyway.

    >>> C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always passing


    >>> (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to
    >>> download anything from them)

    >>
    >> Yeah, there certainly is some risk involved.




  15. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Rod Speed wrote in news:6fheooFbmv0aU1@mid.individual.net
    > news.rcn.com wrote
    > > Rod Speed wrote
    > > > news.rcn.com wrote

    >


    [snip]

    >
    > > > Looks like there is a problem with the drive, which is currently behaving itself.

    >
    > > So back to the OP: How can I test this


    > The SMART data is how you get a report on whats happened with the drive.


    That wasn't the question, Rod.

    >
    > > or do I just have to wait until it shows symptoms or actually fails?


    > Not clear if Hitachi will swap that drive just because of that C4 count.


    If it came with the laptop then it's OEM and they won't anyway.

    >
    > I have been known to physically kill a drive with an intermittent
    > fault so they had no choice but to swap it. You need to know
    > what you are doing to be able to kill it in a way they cant just
    > say was your fault and they wont swap it tho.
    >
    > Those drives have a shock sensor and its reported in the SMART data.


    > > (No, I am not bothered by Squeeze's comments that I shouldnt be worried if I dont receive an error message because
    > > everything is obviously OK)


    We'll see.

    > That was a sarcastic comment anyway.


    As was your request for a report.
    You well know that you don't have a clue about how to interpret them.

    >
    > > > > C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always passing

    >
    > > > > (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to
    > > > > download anything from them)
    > > >
    > > > Yeah, there certainly is some risk involved.


  16. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote in news:-qidneQ6DcrQxg7VnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@rcn.net
    > "Rod Speed" wrote in message news:6fh1rlFb11ljU1@mid.individual.net...
    > > news.rcn.com wrote:


    > > > The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was
    > > > unable to find exception in any of it:


    When you clearly overlooked the obvious faulty temperature and mistook
    the first value for being the raw value that doesn't really count for much,
    now does it.

    > >
    > > Comments interleaved.
    > >
    > > > [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]

    > >
    > > > 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK:
    > > > Value is normal
    > > > 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    > > > Value is normal
    > > > 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK:
    > > > Value is normal
    > > > 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK:
    > > > Always passing
    > > > 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK:


    > > This is the bad sectors, its clearly zero.


    Clearly, if you know where to look, that is.
    Have a look at the first value. Sounds familiar?

    > > Where did you get your 5 from ?


    A bit of a soar spot that, right?
    Indicative of that you didn't even know where to look for the raw value.

    > >
    > > Maybe DFT is resetting the SMART data tho.


    > Surely that would imply an infinite number of spare sectors to replace bad
    > ones if it resets SMART every time it finds one?


    Gee, did you manage to catch Rod on a clueless comment. Shock, horror.

    Ok, you're even now.

    [snip]

    > > > C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42

    > >
    > > That max of 42C is fine, so the bads cant have come from the drive
    > > getting stinking hot unless this SMART value has been reset too.


    > No this drive doesnt get particularly hot at all.


    The "9, 42" value is suspect anyway. Unfit for any conclusions whatsoever.

    [snip]

  17. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Previously news.rcn.com wrote:
    > The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I was
    > unable to find exception in any of it:


    > [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]


    > 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    > normal
    > 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    > normal
    > 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2 OK:
    > Value is normal
    > 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310 OK:
    > Always passing
    > 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    > normal
    > 07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0 OK: Value
    > is normal
    > 08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK: Value is
    > normal
    > 09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK: Always
    > passing
    > 0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK: Value
    > is normal
    > 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK: Always
    > passing
    > BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK: Always
    > passing
    > C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK: Always
    > passing
    > C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK: Always
    > passing
    > C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9, 42 OK:
    > Always passing
    > C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK: Always
    > passing
    > C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
    > C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count0 100 100 0 OK: Always passing
    > C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200 42 OK: Always
    > passing


    > (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to download
    > anything from them)


    This drive has a problem. Attribut C4 indicates 95 reallocation
    events, while 05 indicates zero reallocated sectors (leat attribute
    is raw). This may be due to the drive testing the sectors that
    ahad read errors and finding nothing wrong with them. This in turn
    means likely the sectors are fine and the problem is with the drive
    or its environment. Mechanical shock, bad power and other factors
    can cause sectors to be written badly. Marginal servo electronics
    or can too. It is not clear whether the drive is to blame, but
    it had 95 cases where ist could not read a sector. That is
    far too high for reliable operation. If you have 1 unreadable
    sector per year that may just be bad luck. Here something is very
    wrong, but it may not be something with the disk.

    Hmm. On a second look, this disk has gone though 342'566 load/unload
    cycles. Notebook drives are only rated for about 500'000 of these
    (desktop drives for 50'000). It is possible that the mechanics
    of this one are dying just a little bit early and are getting
    a tiny bit imprecise, enough to cause the occational bad write.
    A bad write then turns into a suspected bad sector, but when testing
    it the drive finds nothing wrong and continues to use it.

    I think you should replace the disk. I suspect it is staring to show
    signs of old age.

    Arno







  18. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Squeeze wrote:
    > news.rcn.com wrote in news:-qidneQ6DcrQxg7VnZ2dnUVZ_uOdnZ2d@rcn.net
    >> "Rod Speed" wrote in message
    >> news:6fh1rlFb11ljU1@mid.individual.net...
    >>> news.rcn.com wrote:

    >
    >>>> The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested,
    >>>> I was unable to find exception in any of it:

    >
    > When you clearly overlooked the obvious faulty temperature and mistook
    > the first value for being the raw value that doesn't really count for
    > much, now does it.
    >
    >>>
    >>> Comments interleaved.
    >>>
    >>>> [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]
    >>>
    >>>> 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK:
    >>>> Value is normal
    >>>> 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    >>>> Value is normal
    >>>> 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2
    >>>> OK: Value is normal
    >>>> 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98
    >>>> 4310 OK: Always passing
    >>>> 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK:

    >
    >>> This is the bad sectors, its clearly zero.

    >
    > Clearly, if you know where to look, that is.
    > Have a look at the first value. Sounds familiar?
    >
    >>> Where did you get your 5 from ?

    >
    > A bit of a soar spot that, right?
    > Indicative of that you didn't even know where to look for the raw
    > value.
    >
    >>>
    >>> Maybe DFT is resetting the SMART data tho.

    >
    >> Surely that would imply an infinite number of spare sectors to
    >> replace bad
    >> ones if it resets SMART every time it finds one?

    >
    > Gee, did you manage to catch Rod on a clueless comment. Shock, horror.
    >
    > Ok, you're even now.
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >>>> C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9,
    >>>> 42
    >>>
    >>> That max of 42C is fine, so the bads cant have come from the drive
    >>> getting stinking hot unless this SMART value has been reset too.

    >
    >> No this drive doesnt get particularly hot at all.


    > The "9, 42" value is suspect anyway. Unfit for any conclusions whatsoever.


    Perfectly possible for a laptop drive to have those as max and min in C



  19. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    news.rcn.com wrote:
    > "news.rcn.com" wrote in message
    > news:3-OdnUt56bu7iAzVnZ2dnUVZ_jSdnZ2d@rcn.net...
    >>
    >> "Rod Speed" wrote in message
    >> news:6f9t9aFajekcU1@mid.individual.net...
    >>> news.rcn.com wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Does anyone know how many spare clusters there are typically on a
    >>>> 120 Gig Travelstar please?
    >>>
    >>> It doesnt matter. If you need most of them, the drive is dying.
    >>>
    >>>> I suppose it IS safe to use them?
    >>>
    >>> Not if the data isnt fully backed up.
    >>>
    >>>> Isn't that what they are for?
    >>>
    >>> Nope, its so the drive dies gracefully when thats possible.
    >>>
    >>>> I have a 120 Gig Travelstar which was continuously failing. When it
    >>>> failed the computer wouldn't POST, giving a hard drive failure
    >>>> error message. I could then load BIOS defaults and go into windows
    >>>> and the machine would work for sometimes a few minutes, sometimes
    >>>> a day or so before cutting dead.
    >>>
    >>> Thats not the drive dying. If the drive was dying, loading the BIOS
    >>> defaults wouldnt make any difference.
    >>>
    >>>> The manufacturer has replaced the mobo on this unit twice in the
    >>>> last month or so.
    >>>
    >>> Maybe with another defective motherboard with the same fault thats
    >>> common to that motherboard.

    >> No, the first time the i/o controller was dead and the second the
    >> mouse was completely inoperative. If this is a problem with the
    >> mobo, this is the first I have seen of it
    >>>
    >>>> However running DFT's advanced test (from a CD) shows dead
    >>>> clusters and running sector repair just results in a COMPLETED
    >>>> SUCCESSFULLY message???
    >>>
    >>> Likely the fault is producing the illusion of bad clusters that
    >>> arent actually bad.

    > Sorry, I was asked to post a report and just said that everything was
    > OK


    > There was one interesting statistic: The replaced secor count was 5


    Nope, thats the threshold, the value at which the drive is looking doubtful.

    The actual value seen is the last number for that field, 0.

    > which it said was within normal paramters. 5 seems like the sort of figure produced by a SMART sector replacement.


    Nope, its just the threshold.

    > I ran DFT at least ten times before it reported that there were no (more) bad sectors. I wonder if I should call Acer
    > and ask them if they think this points to a problem with the motherboard as you describe?


    Nope, its just a threshold.

    > This is now especially difficult if the problem has (by now) gone
    > away and I have in effect nothing to show Acer on this Mobo which is
    > actually wrong?? I just have to sort of hope (!) that the problem
    > comes back before the warranty expires


    > I should have said
    >> That is even more worrying, when a positive message doesnt mean
    >> much; This is why I posted!!
    >>>> I then went into windows and the problem persists.
    >>>
    >>> Because the data has not been restored to the bad clusters.
    >>>
    >>>> Running DFT again gives the same successful cluster repair message
    >>>> 0x00, In fact running it successively results in finding MORE dead
    >>>> clusters.
    >>>
    >>> Then the fault is still present. Thats not unusual with some
    >>> faults, even with a dying drive.
    >>>
    >>>> I must have run it about ten times in a row by now.
    >>>
    >>>> Trouble is that suddenly the problem has gone away. No further
    >>>> dead clusters are found and for now, the system runs properly in
    >>>> Windows.
    >>>
    >>> Thats also not unusual. Its called an intermittent fault.
    >>>
    >>>> Has DFT replaced ALL dead clusters with spare ones
    >>>
    >>> Impossible to say from the evidence you have provided.

    >> Well the upshot SEEMS at the moment to be that the problem has gone
    >> away BUT I did download the everest tool you mentioned
    >>>
    >>>> or is there any more exhaustive test I can run which could tell me
    >>>> whether this drive is going to be reliable?
    >>>
    >>> Not a test so much as a report. Post the Everest SMART report for
    >>> the drive.
    >>> http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=4181

    >> Everything checks out successfully on SMART. It ran in a second or
    >> so and reports that everything passes the test and is within
    >> parameters.
    >>>> I have lost my UBCD4WIN boot disc)
    >>>
    >>> Then download another. (is it that easy? Or does it involve
    >>> creating a slipstreamed CD with all patches in, and making an ISO
    >>> out of that and burning it to the CD?)




  20. Re: Not sure what to do about not receiving error messages

    Arno Wagner wrote:
    > Previously news.rcn.com wrote:
    >> The SMART part of the report looks like this and as I suggested, I
    >> was unable to find exception in any of it:

    >
    >> [ HTS421212H9AT00 (HKA414ALGTJPJE) ]

    >
    >> 01 Raw Read Error Rate 62 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Value is normal
    >> 02 Throughput Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Value is normal
    >> 03 Spin Up Time 33 115 115 2
    >> OK: Value is normal
    >> 04 Start/Stop Count 0 98 98 4310
    >> OK: Always passing
    >> 05 Reallocated Sector Count 5 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Value is normal
    >> 07 Seek Error Rate 67 100 100 0
    >> OK: Value is normal
    >> 08 Seek Time Performance 40 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Value is normal
    >> 09 Power-On Time Count 0 83 83 7803 OK:
    >> Always passing
    >> 0A Spin Retry Count 60 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Value is normal
    >> 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 871 OK:
    >> Always passing
    >> BF G-Sense Error Rate 0 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Always passing
    >> C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 100 100 41 OK:
    >> Always passing
    >> C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 66 66 342566OK:
    >> Always passing
    >> C2 Temperature 0 130 130 9,
    >> 42 OK: Always passing
    >> C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 100 100 95 OK:
    >> Always passing
    >> C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 0 OK: Always
    >> passing C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count0 100 100 0 OK:
    >> Always passing C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0 200 200
    >> 42 OK: Always
    >> passing

    >
    >> (I really am unsure about using torrents and havent dared try to
    >> download anything from them)

    >
    > This drive has a problem. Attribut C4 indicates 95 reallocation
    > events, while 05 indicates zero reallocated sectors (leat attribute
    > is raw). This may be due to the drive testing the sectors that
    > ahad read errors and finding nothing wrong with them. This in turn
    > means likely the sectors are fine and the problem is with the drive
    > or its environment. Mechanical shock, bad power and other factors
    > can cause sectors to be written badly. Marginal servo electronics
    > or can too. It is not clear whether the drive is to blame, but
    > it had 95 cases where ist could not read a sector. That is
    > far too high for reliable operation. If you have 1 unreadable
    > sector per year that may just be bad luck. Here something is very
    > wrong, but it may not be something with the disk.


    > Hmm. On a second look, this disk has gone though 342'566 load/unload
    > cycles. Notebook drives are only rated for about 500'000 of these


    So the drive is still well below the drive manufacturer's design value.

    > (desktop drives for 50'000). It is possible that the mechanics
    > of this one are dying just a little bit early and are getting
    > a tiny bit imprecise, enough to cause the occational bad write.


    But if that was true, you'd see it in the seek error rate and you dont.

    > A bad write then turns into a suspected bad sector, but when
    > testing it the drive finds nothing wrong and continues to use it.


    > I think you should replace the disk. I suspect it is staring to show signs of old age.


    Its certainly got a problem, but that isnt old age.



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