Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast - Storage

This is a discussion on Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast - Storage ; tacit wrote: > In article , > gl4316@yahoo.com (gl4316@yahoo.com) wrote: > >> And your suggestion is to use which brand? > > TDK and Verbatim work very well for me. TEAC works great for me, Verbatim are not the same ...

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Thread: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

  1. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    tacit wrote:
    > In article ,
    > gl4316@yahoo.com (gl4316@yahoo.com) wrote:
    >
    >> And your suggestion is to use which brand?

    >
    > TDK and Verbatim work very well for me.


    TEAC works great for me, Verbatim are not the same everwhere, here
    in Israel they are worthless. Office Depot (yes, we have them here)
    had a buy 1 get one free sale for their media and no one bought them.

    Old SCSI drives did not have buffer underrun protection, e.g.
    "BurnSafe", so you should burn them at the slowest speed possible.

    Geoff.


    --
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

  2. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    In article , Geoffrey S.
    Mendelson wrote:

    > >> And your suggestion is to use which brand?

    > >
    > > TDK and Verbatim work very well for me.

    >
    > TEAC works great for me, Verbatim are not the same everwhere, here
    > in Israel they are worthless. Office Depot (yes, we have them here)
    > had a buy 1 get one free sale for their media and no one bought them.


    verbatim data life plus are not outsourced and should be the same
    everywhere. the cheapo verbatims can vary.

    other manufacturers (including house brands) outsource so you never
    really know what you're getting. two packages of the same brand discs
    sitting next to each other on the shelf might be from entirely
    different manufacturers. either look at where it's made (made in japan
    is almost always good, made in taiwan is a crapshoot, elsewhere
    varies), or just shop for taiyo yuden discs (where 'made in japan'
    discs are usually made) on line.

    > Old SCSI drives did not have buffer underrun protection, e.g.
    > "BurnSafe", so you should burn them at the slowest speed possible.


    nonsense. many scsi burners have buffer underrun protection (both of
    mine did) and they can burn at any speed provided the host computer can
    source data that fast.

    also, most discs these days are optimized for the higher burn speeds
    and burning too slow is actually worse than burning closer to their
    rated speed.

  3. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    In article <190620080107285280%nospam@nospam.invalid>, nospam
    wrote:

    > also, most discs these days are optimized for the higher burn speeds
    > and burning too slow is actually worse than burning closer to their
    > rated speed.



    Now that I can actually read the disks that I produced in the computer I
    produced them in, I am perhaps running into that.

    The two disks that were produced at the higher rate of speed can now be
    read. The one I produced at the slower rate can not be read, and acts
    like a blank.

    Toast, thankfully, has a test burn speed feature to test the rate, if you
    are not familiar with the maximum rate that the burner can run without
    underrunning the buffer.

    Considering the extensive discussion in the book about noise on the SCSI
    cables and that it might lead to multiple retries, I also thought the
    slower speed would produce a just as good if not better disk. That isn't
    what happened in my case!

    --
    -Glennl
    e-mail hint: add 1 to quantity after gl to get 4317.

  4. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    nospam wrote:

    > verbatim data life plus are not outsourced and should be the same
    > everywhere. the cheapo verbatims can vary.


    Thanks, I never knew that.

    What I have seen is that the disks seem to be blue or yellow. I assume
    that is the color of the dye that gets burned. Yellow (also gold/silver)
    disks work better for me in older drives.


    > nonsense. many scsi burners have buffer underrun protection (both of
    > mine did) and they can burn at any speed provided the host computer can
    > source data that fast.


    The original question was about a Yamaha 16x read, 4x burn unit. I have
    two of them and neither of them has buffer underrun protection. There was
    a firmware upgrade for it, I applied it to one of them and it did not
    seem to fix or break anything. :-)


    > also, most discs these days are optimized for the higher burn speeds
    > and burning too slow is actually worse than burning closer to their
    > rated speed.


    The TEAC blanks I use are marked 12x-52x, but they burn fine at 1x.

    I burn relatively a lot (average 1 set a month) CD's for OLD Macs (680x0 series
    and pre-G3 PPC) and get good results burning them no faster the
    read speed of the target drive.

    For some strange reason, CD's burned on PC's using DVD burners work fine
    when they are burned at any speed, athough I try to use 8x, which for
    most of them is the minimum.


    Geoff.
    --
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

  5. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    In article , Geoffrey S.
    Mendelson wrote:
    >
    > > verbatim data life plus are not outsourced and should be the same
    > > everywhere. the cheapo verbatims can vary.

    >
    > Thanks, I never knew that.
    >
    > What I have seen is that the disks seem to be blue or yellow. I assume
    > that is the color of the dye that gets burned. Yellow (also gold/silver)
    > disks work better for me in older drives.


    the blue discs are the data life plus and are very good. in fact,
    they're often called verbatim blues because of the dye colour. it's
    their own formula (called azo), and as far as i know, only they make
    discs with it. i've never used the other verbatim discs and have no
    idea what colour those are.

    but you make a very important point. it's not so much which disc is
    best, but which *combination* of burner/disc/reader. a disc that works
    great in one drive might not work well in a different drive (e.g., an
    older one).

    i had an old ricoh burner that would not even *recognize* ritek discs
    (one of the major taiwanese manufacturers who source for just about
    everyone), let alone burn to them. it's been to long to recall if it
    just spit the disc out or if it spun and spun trying to figure out what
    was in there, but those very same discs worked quite well in a plextor
    burner without any problems.

    > > also, most discs these days are optimized for the higher burn speeds
    > > and burning too slow is actually worse than burning closer to their
    > > rated speed.

    >
    > The TEAC blanks I use are marked 12x-52x, but they burn fine at 1x.


    sure, they'll burn fine, but if you look at the actual raw error rate
    of the disc you'll probably see that it's much higher when burned at
    the slowest speeds versus burning at the higher speeds. the errors are
    correctable so the disc 'works' and is readable, but since it has a
    higher error rate, it's a little closer to failing.

    if you want to burn at 1x, look for music cds. they're designed to be
    used in set top burners (attached to a home stereo, not a computer)
    which record real time and they're optimized for 1x burns.
    unfortunately, they're more expensive due to the music industry 'tax.'

  6. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    nospam wrote:
    > if you want to burn at 1x, look for music cds. they're designed to be
    > used in set top burners (attached to a home stereo, not a computer)
    > which record real time and they're optimized for 1x burns.
    > unfortunately, they're more expensive due to the music industry 'tax.'


    I haven't seen them in 10 years. Audio CD recorders were never very
    big here. Due to the difference in taxes between stereo equipment and
    musical instruments vs computers, you could buy several top of the line
    PC's with a CD burner in them for the price of one standalone audio
    CD burner.

    Occasionaly I see postings on local lists looking for audio blanks by
    someone who brought in an audio recorder. I've kept in contact with a
    few of them and they have never found the blanks here.

    Geoff.
    --
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

  7. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    In article , Geoffrey S.
    Mendelson wrote:

    > > if you want to burn at 1x, look for music cds. they're designed to be
    > > used in set top burners (attached to a home stereo, not a computer)
    > > which record real time and they're optimized for 1x burns.
    > > unfortunately, they're more expensive due to the music industry 'tax.'

    >
    > I haven't seen them in 10 years. Audio CD recorders were never very
    > big here.


    i saw some audio cds in a store a few years ago (not that i actively
    look for them), but i've never seen an audio recorder nor do i know
    anyone who bought one.

  8. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast


    Geoffrey S. Mendelson wrote:
    > nospam wrote:
    >> verbatim data life plus are not outsourced and should be the same
    >> everywhere. the cheapo verbatims can vary.

    >
    > Thanks, I never knew that.
    >
    > What I have seen is that the disks seem to be blue or yellow. I assume
    > that is the color of the dye that gets burned. Yellow (also gold/silver)
    > disks work better for me in older drives.


    You're right. - bluish surfaced CDs donot work very well on older
    burners like the Yamaha, Mat****a, Panasonic and Sony, which were the
    brands mostly used those days.

    this is the only time, I've lost some burnings, when I bought a -
    luckily - small case with blue surfaced disks and put them into my
    Panasonic CRW-7502 with a modified firmware for music burning. - ALL of
    them went wrong and couldn't be verified afterwards. After that I
    switched to an Italian brand called VivoStar for databurning and TDK for
    music and had no problems with that drive from that on...

    >> nonsense. many scsi burners have buffer underrun protection (both of
    >> mine did) and they can burn at any speed provided the host computer can
    >> source data that fast.

    >
    > The original question was about a Yamaha 16x read, 4x burn unit. I have
    > two of them and neither of them has buffer underrun protection. There was
    > a firmware upgrade for it, I applied it to one of them and it did not
    > seem to fix or break anything. :-)


    Yep! Neither the Yamaha, Mat****a, sony or Papasonic SCSI drives have
    buffer underrun with any kind of burn-proof. - This means that 'high
    density' files with lots of data will have to be burned at very low
    speeds of a max. of 4x.

    But of cfourse all drives have a buffer itself..-) - else you won't be
    able to burn with a higher speed than about 1,5x to a max. of 4x.:-)

    >> also, most discs these days are optimized for the higher burn speeds
    >> and burning too slow is actually worse than burning closer to their
    >> rated speed.

    >
    > The TEAC blanks I use are marked 12x-52x, but they burn fine at 1x.


    Of course it'll burn fine at 1z.:-) - The 'rating' on a media is meant
    as a 'thumb rule' for what and which types and speeds avaliable on a
    specific drive.

    > I burn relatively a lot (average 1 set a month) CD's for OLD Macs (680x0 series
    > and pre-G3 PPC) and get good results burning them no faster the
    > read speed of the target drive.


    Good suggestion... When i burn disks that should have a high precision
    level, I only burn at a speed of 4x - i.e. music CDs and copies of old
    bootable system disks, so i can spare my originals. Normal data Cds I
    burn of speeds up to a max. of 32x...

    > For some strange reason, CD's burned on PC's using DVD burners work fine
    > when they are burned at any speed, athough I try to use 8x, which for
    > most of them is the minimum.


    That's probably because the laser in a DVD drive has to be quite a lot
    more precise to be able to burn all the amount of data on a DVD (movie +
    sound) to be able to be read in a drive

    Cheers, Erik richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
    Rgds. Gre, Mvh. Erik Richard Srensen, Member of ADC

    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Textprocessing
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

  9. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast



    nospam wrote:
    > In article , Geoffrey S.
    > Mendelson wrote:
    >>> verbatim data life plus are not outsourced and should be the same
    >>> everywhere. the cheapo verbatims can vary.

    >> Thanks, I never knew that.
    >>
    >> What I have seen is that the disks seem to be blue or yellow. I assume
    >> that is the color of the dye that gets burned. Yellow (also gold/silver)
    >> disks work better for me in older drives.

    >
    > the blue discs are the data life plus and are very good. in fact,
    > they're often called verbatim blues because of the dye colour. it's
    > their own formula (called azo), and as far as i know, only they make
    > discs with it. i've never used the other verbatim discs and have no
    > idea what colour those are.


    Not quite so... Both TDK and Kodak also have made blue disks, and these
    disks are some of the worst, you can put into most SCSI burners and the
    earler ATAPI drives in _any_ computer - Mac or PC doesn't matter here.

    >>> also, most discs these days are optimized for the higher burn speeds
    >>> and burning too slow is actually worse than burning closer to their
    >>> rated speed.

    >> The TEAC blanks I use are marked 12x-52x, but they burn fine at 1x.

    >
    > sure, they'll burn fine, but if you look at the actual raw error rate
    > of the disc you'll probably see that it's much higher when burned at
    > the slowest speeds versus burning at the higher speeds. the errors are
    > correctable so the disc 'works' and is readable, but since it has a
    > higher error rate, it's a little closer to failing.
    >
    > if you want to burn at 1x, look for music cds. they're designed to be
    > used in set top burners (attached to a home stereo, not a computer)
    > which record real time and they're optimized for 1x burns.
    > unfortunately, they're more expensive due to the music industry 'tax.'


    Well... yes and no... Not all countries have VAT on blank music CDs...
    And hereto also before those countries put on tax on that kind of media,
    the blank music CDs were quite a lot more expensive than normal data
    CDs. - The foil in the the music media is apprx. 3-4x as thick as the
    foil in a data media.

    And not to forget. The data media are mostly made of aluminium or
    aluminium-nickel alloy, which gives quite a stable type of foil, where
    the special music medias are made of an alloy of aluminium, silver and
    cobolt, which increases the production cost quite a lot, but also makes
    that kind of media by near just as good as the factory made music CDs.

    cheers, Erik richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
    Rgds. Gre, Mvh. Erik Richard Srensen, Member of ADC

    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Textprocessing
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

  10. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast



    nospam wrote:
    > In article , Geoffrey S.
    > Mendelson wrote:
    >
    >>> if you want to burn at 1x, look for music cds. they're designed to be
    >>> used in set top burners (attached to a home stereo, not a computer)
    >>> which record real time and they're optimized for 1x burns.
    >>> unfortunately, they're more expensive due to the music industry 'tax.'

    >> I haven't seen them in 10 years. Audio CD recorders were never very
    >> big here.

    >
    > i saw some audio cds in a store a few years ago (not that i actively
    > look for them), but i've never seen an audio recorder nor do i know
    > anyone who bought one.


    Well... some brands are still making them as 'dual-recorders' for
    dublicating CDs from a master to a copier, but they are really expensive...

    I bought one, a semi-professional Philips, - which was going to be used
    for music production. But though it was ISO505 certified, it wouldn't
    work with normal blanks or bulk audio CDs for self-labelling systems.
    The store took it back again without problems, when I notified them
    about that problem. They examined why it wouldn't work, and it turned
    out that the unit had been limited with a chip that blocked for use of
    those kind of medias. Philips was forced to put that chip inside
    according to a Danish law that prohibited the use of data CDs on a music
    recording CD system. - If I had bought it in Germany, I'd be able to use
    it as a duplicator. - Instead I then bought a highly professional
    external CD drive and use this for music production. - And I'm glad to
    say that not a single claim has come so far on what I've made until now.

    Cheers, Erik Richard

    --
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~
    Rgds. Gre, Mvh. Erik Richard Srensen, Member of ADC

    NisusWriter - The Future In Multilingual Textprocessing
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

  11. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    nospam wrote:

    > i saw some audio cds in a store a few years ago (not that i actively
    > look for them), but i've never seen an audio recorder nor do i know
    > anyone who bought one.


    I bought a dual-deck Philips one about eight years ago. It's still
    doing the same job it did then-- I bounce down to it from my four-track
    Fostex HDD recorder via an optical digital cable.

  12. Re: Unreadable CD created by Roxio Toast

    nospam wrote:
    > the blue discs are the data life plus and are very good. in fact,
    > they're often called verbatim blues because of the dye colour. it's
    > their own formula (called azo), and as far as i know, only they make
    > discs with it. i've never used the other verbatim discs and have no
    > idea what colour those are.


    Azo is a type of dye:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azo_compound

    It looked familar to me because at one time Kodak made a photographic print
    paper called Azo:

    http://www.kodak.com/global/en/profe.../g10/g10.jhtml


    Geoff.
    --
    Geoffrey S. Mendelson, Jerusalem, Israel gsm@mendelson.com N3OWJ/4X1GM

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