Recommended hard drive temperature - Storage

This is a discussion on Recommended hard drive temperature - Storage ; On 21 Apr 2008 23:04:10 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger to keyboard and composed: >Previously Franc Zabkar wrote: >> On 21 Apr 2008 09:48:45 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger >> to keyboard and composed: > >>>Previously Franc Zabkar wrote: > ...

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Thread: Recommended hard drive temperature

  1. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    On 21 Apr 2008 23:04:10 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    to keyboard and composed:

    >Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    >> On 21 Apr 2008 09:48:45 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    >> to keyboard and composed:

    >
    >>>Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:

    >
    >>>> What about fluid dynamics? Maybe there is an optimal temperature for
    >>>> the platter lubricant and/or air bearing.
    >>>
    >>>Possibly. Many drives in the Google study should actually
    >>>be pre-fluid bearing, if I remember correctly when they became
    >>>mainstream. A part would be FDBs though and maybe there is some
    >>>increased vibration effect or the like at lower temperaturers.

    >
    >> When I wrote "fluid dynamics", I was referring to the air flow under
    >> the R/W head, ie the air bearing, not the motor bearing.

    >
    >Ah. That would be a different type of dynamics, that, while having
    >some fluid properties, is not fluid dynamics.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

    "Fluid dynamics is the sub-discipline of fluid mechanics dealing with
    fluid flow: fluids (liquids and gases) in motion. It has several
    subdisciplines itself, including aerodynamics (the study of gases in
    motion) ... Fluid dynamics has a wide range of applications, including
    calculating forces and moments on aircraft ..."

    .... and on flying disc heads?

    - Franc Zabkar
    --
    Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

  2. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    Franc Zabkar wrote in news:jq6v04pghj6ilcu188g2enl14opavt48j0@4ax.com
    > On 17 Apr 2008 20:56:34 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > to keyboard and composed:
    >
    > > Seek errors are due to modern drives starting reading before the
    > > heads have settled. This usually works, but when it does not work it
    > > becomes a seek error.


    > I've been searching for references to support your statement but I
    > haven't had any luck.


    Gee, there's a big surprise.

    > I know from personal experience


    Personal experience, no less.

    > that older drives could be commanded to seek with a positive or negative
    > track offset.
    > Positioning the head slightly off-track and attempting a read was commonly
    > done during low level formatting to test the integrity of the data surface.


    Right, and it was you 'personally' that held the heads off track.

    > Any track that failed would be taken out of service
    > and replaced with a spare. Servo offsets could also be used when
    > recovering data from marginal sectors.
    >
    > I notice that some Seagate product manuals specify a lower number
    > for average seek time during reads as opposed to writes (8.5ms ver-
    > sus 10ms). Track-to-track seeks are also lower (0.8ms versus 1.0ms).


    One reason could be that this is an average and the increase of the ave-
    rage is caused by just some writes having to wait another full rev due to
    the servo system deciding it's not certain that it is on the correct track
    due to the sector being near but not enough track marks on the track,
    to have read (just) one, before the sector arrives.
    On a read the drive can read the sector and confirm the track number
    afterwards and let it go through (or not) depending on the outcome. On
    a write that's not possible as that's destructive and it doesn't want the
    wrong sector overwritten so it lets the opportunity pass and do another rev.

    Nothing to do with the heads "having settled" and poor
    reads that make or don't make it through error correction.

    > I don't know whether this reflects the operation of the drive's read
    > ahead cache or whether it supports your claim regarding a


    > "preemptive" read strategy.


    Close, but that's not what he said.

    >
    > - Franc Zabkar


  3. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > On 21 Apr 2008 23:04:10 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > to keyboard and composed:


    >>Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    >>> On 21 Apr 2008 09:48:45 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    >>> to keyboard and composed:

    >>
    >>>>Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:

    >>
    >>>>> What about fluid dynamics? Maybe there is an optimal temperature for
    >>>>> the platter lubricant and/or air bearing.
    >>>>
    >>>>Possibly. Many drives in the Google study should actually
    >>>>be pre-fluid bearing, if I remember correctly when they became
    >>>>mainstream. A part would be FDBs though and maybe there is some
    >>>>increased vibration effect or the like at lower temperaturers.

    >>
    >>> When I wrote "fluid dynamics", I was referring to the air flow under
    >>> the R/W head, ie the air bearing, not the motor bearing.

    >>
    >>Ah. That would be a different type of dynamics, that, while having
    >>some fluid properties, is not fluid dynamics.


    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics


    > "Fluid dynamics is the sub-discipline of fluid mechanics dealing with
    > fluid flow: fluids (liquids and gases) in motion. It has several
    > subdisciplines itself, including aerodynamics (the study of gases in
    > motion) ... Fluid dynamics has a wide range of applications, including
    > calculating forces and moments on aircraft ..."


    > ... and on flying disc heads?


    Oh, ok. Different usage in my physics course (which was in
    german), it seems.

    Arno

  4. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    Arno Wagner wrote in news:677f78F2nlmkvU1@mid.individual.net
    > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > > On 21 Apr 2008 23:04:10 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > > to keyboard and composed:

    >
    > > > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > > > > On 21 Apr 2008 09:48:45 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > > > > to keyboard and composed:
    > > >
    > > > > > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > > > What about fluid dynamics? Maybe there is an optimal temperature for
    > > > > > > the platter lubricant and/or air bearing.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Possibly. Many drives in the Google study should actually
    > > > > > be pre-fluid bearing, if I remember correctly when they became
    > > > > > mainstream. A part would be FDBs though and maybe there is some
    > > > > > increased vibration effect or the like at lower temperaturers.
    > > >
    > > > > When I wrote "fluid dynamics", I was referring to the air flow under
    > > > > the R/W head, ie the air bearing, not the motor bearing.
    > > >
    > > > Ah. That would be a different type of dynamics, that, while having
    > > > some fluid properties, is not fluid dynamics.

    >
    > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluid_dynamics

    >
    > > "Fluid dynamics is the sub-discipline of fluid mechanics dealing with
    > > fluid flow: fluids (liquids and gases) in motion. It has several
    > > subdisciplines itself, including aerodynamics (the study of gases in
    > > motion) ... Fluid dynamics has a wide range of applications, including
    > > calculating forces and moments on aircraft ..."

    >
    > > ... and on flying disc heads?

    >
    > Oh, ok.


    > Different usage in my physics course (which was in german), it seems.


    And, as we all know, german physics are different from
    the rest of the world's physics. That explains it all.
    Thanks babblebot, you nailed it, once again.
    What should we do without you, eh. Imagine that.

    >
    > Arno


  5. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    On 17 Apr 2008 20:56:34 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    to keyboard and composed:

    >Seek errors are due to modern drives
    >starting reading before the heads have settled. This usually works,
    >but when it does not work it becomes a seek error.


    I've been searching for references to support your statement but I
    haven't had any luck. I know from personal experience that older
    drives could be commanded to seek with a positive or negative track
    offset. Positioning the head slightly off-track and attempting a read
    was commonly done during low level formatting to test the integrity of
    the data surface. Any track that failed would be taken out of service
    and replaced with a spare. Servo offsets could also be used when
    recovering data from marginal sectors.

    I notice that some Seagate product manuals specify a lower number for
    average seek time during reads as opposed to writes (8.5ms versus
    10ms). Track-to-track seeks are also lower (0.8ms versus 1.0ms). I
    don't know whether this reflects the operation of the drive's read
    ahead cache or whether it supports your claim regarding a "preemptive"
    read strategy.

    - Franc Zabkar
    --
    Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

  6. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > On 17 Apr 2008 20:56:34 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > to keyboard and composed:


    >>Seek errors are due to modern drives
    >>starting reading before the heads have settled. This usually works,
    >>but when it does not work it becomes a seek error.


    > I've been searching for references to support your statement but I
    > haven't had any luck. I know from personal experience that older
    > drives could be commanded to seek with a positive or negative track
    > offset. Positioning the head slightly off-track and attempting a read
    > was commonly done during low level formatting to test the integrity of
    > the data surface. Any track that failed would be taken out of service
    > and replaced with a spare. Servo offsets could also be used when
    > recovering data from marginal sectors.


    Actually I do not have a good reference myself. It is something
    that accumulated when looking into modern HDD technology and
    the possibilities of recovering overwritten data. Supporting
    data is that for some intermediate HDD generations reads
    were faster than writes by a notable margin. I do not remember
    exactly whether I found an explicit statement about this behaviour,
    or whether it is my conclusion from accumulayed facts. So, strictly
    speaking, this may only be a hypothesis, but is is a good one.

    > I notice that some Seagate product manuals specify a lower number for
    > average seek time during reads as opposed to writes (8.5ms versus
    > 10ms). Track-to-track seeks are also lower (0.8ms versus 1.0ms).


    Ah, so this is still going on.

    > I don't know whether this reflects the operation of the drive's read
    > ahead cache or whether it supports your claim regarding a "preemptive"
    > read strategy.


    Caches/buffers are not involved here. Otherwise they would
    certainly also include them for writing, and write-buffers
    can hav a lot more impact than read-ahead.

    Arno

  7. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    On 24 Apr 2008 06:42:53 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    to keyboard and composed:

    >Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:


    >> I notice that some Seagate product manuals specify a lower number for
    >> average seek time during reads as opposed to writes (8.5ms versus
    >> 10ms). Track-to-track seeks are also lower (0.8ms versus 1.0ms).

    >
    >Ah, so this is still going on.
    >
    >> I don't know whether this reflects the operation of the drive's read
    >> ahead cache or whether it supports your claim regarding a "preemptive"
    >> read strategy.

    >
    >Caches/buffers are not involved here. Otherwise they would
    >certainly also include them for writing, and write-buffers
    >can hav a lot more impact than read-ahead.
    >
    >Arno


    Yes, that makes sense. It seems, then, that your preemptive read
    hypothesis is plausible.

    - Franc Zabkar
    --
    Please remove one 'i' from my address when replying by email.

  8. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    Franc Zabkar wrote in news:0il0141ha4hojccg9r0sj6lvsujtget8vo@4ax.com
    > On 24 Apr 2008 06:42:53 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > to keyboard and composed:
    >
    > > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:

    >
    > > > I notice that some Seagate product manuals specify a lower number for
    > > > average seek time during reads as opposed to writes (8.5ms versus
    > > > 10ms). Track-to-track seeks are also lower (0.8ms versus 1.0ms).

    > >
    > > Ah, so this is still going on.
    > >
    > > > I don't know whether this reflects the operation of the drive's read
    > > > ahead cache or whether it supports your claim regarding a "preemptive"
    > > > read strategy.

    > >
    > > Caches/buffers are not involved here. Otherwise they would
    > > certainly also include them for writing, and write-buffers
    > > can hav a lot more impact than read-ahead.
    > >
    > > Arno

    >
    > Yes, that makes sense.


    > It seems, then, that your preemptive read hypothesis is plausible.


    Yes it is, just not what he thinks it is. And it's your naming, not his.

    >
    > - Franc Zabkar


  9. Re: Recommended hard drive temperature

    Arno Wagner wrote in news:67aofdF2o6q6kU1@mid.individual.net
    > Previously Franc Zabkar wrote:
    > > On 17 Apr 2008 20:56:34 GMT, Arno Wagner put finger
    > > to keyboard and composed:

    >

    [Babble**** removed]
    >
    > > I've been searching for references to support your statement but I
    > > haven't had any luck. I know from personal experience that older
    > > drives could be commanded to seek with a positive or negative track
    > > offset. Positioning the head slightly off-track and attempting a read
    > > was commonly done during low level formatting to test the integrity of
    > > the data surface. Any track that failed would be taken out of service
    > > and replaced with a spare. Servo offsets could also be used when
    > > recovering data from marginal sectors.


    > Actually I do not have a good reference myself.


    Of course not. You are Babblebot, you don't need one.

    > It is something that accumulated when looking into modern HDD
    > technology and the possibilities of recovering overwritten data.
    > Supporting data is that for some intermediate HDD generations
    > reads were faster than writes by a notable margin. I do not remember
    > exactly whether I found an explicit statement about this behaviour,
    > or whether it is my conclusion from accumulayed facts. So, strictly
    > speaking, this may only be a hypothesis,


    > but is is a good one.


    No, it's nonsense.

    >
    > > I notice that some Seagate product manuals specify a lower number for
    > > average seek time during reads as opposed to writes (8.5ms versus
    > > 10ms). Track-to-track seeks are also lower (0.8ms versus 1.0ms).


    > Ah, so this is still going on.


    Like the physics changed over time, you babblebot moron.

    >
    > > I don't know whether this reflects the operation of the drive's read
    > > ahead cache or whether it supports your claim regarding a "preemptive"
    > > read strategy.

    >
    > Caches/buffers are not involved here. Otherwise they would
    > certainly also include them for writing,


    > and write-buffers can hav a lot more impact than read-ahead.


    Actually, it would reduce the seektime to zero, zip, nada.

    >
    > Arno


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