Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again - Storage

This is a discussion on Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again - Storage ; On Sep 3, 2:25 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote: > Nehmo wrote: > No evidence that the drive has a problem so they may well refuse a warranty claim. The store already agreed to honor the warranty claim. I spoke to ...

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Thread: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again

  1. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again

    On Sep 3, 2:25 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
    > Nehmo wrote:


    > No evidence that the drive has a problem so they may well refuse a warranty claim.


    The store already agreed to honor the warranty claim. I spoke to them
    on the phone. So I can do it if I want.

    > You should try the drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.


    I just got Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for Windows from WD. I didn't
    find anything like that for the Toshiba drive, the original drive.

    > > I bought it form Micro Center in Overland Park, Kansas, which has a 30
    > > day return-merchandise period (in addition to the term of any manufacture
    > > warranty). But since I have to clone it to a new drive, I have to buy the
    > > new one first, then clone, then wipe, and then return for a new drive.

    >
    > I wouldnt do that personally given that the drive appears to be fine.


    To review:
    This is the same problem as before; the same exact symptoms manifest.
    The first time, the Toshiba drive, the original drive, showed some
    SMART problems. The Current Pending Sector Count appeared bad.
    Changing the drive, or something that happened while changing the
    drive, solved the problem.
    Now the laptop, with the new WD drive, after a month of working fine,
    is exhibiting the same symptoms as before. But this time the drive
    isn't showing any problem in the SMART results.
    The cooling design for the drive is not good, but the temperature
    hasn't exceeded the manufacturer's limits.


    >
    > > But should I not get one with a 5400 RPM?
    > > Should I get one with a low idle power consumption?

    >
    > Yes, since its clear that the laptop doesnt cool the drive properly.
    >
    > > I'll try removing the drive and then just putting it back in place.
    > > Maybe the connector is defective. Or maybe something else
    > > is wrong, as you suggested.

    >
    > Yeah, I think thats most likely. Classic dry joint/cracked trace type fault.
    >
    > > It's worth mentioning that the problem began both times when
    > > I was watching a video. This is a operation that taxes the drive.
    > > Also, the drive indicator light flicks on in-step with the stuttering as it happens.

    >
    > Yeah, the fault is likely producing intermittent data flow from the drive.
    >
    >
    >
    > > Actually, last time, you didn't like the Current Pending Sector Count,

    >
    > Yes, that drive was certainly dying. This one isnt.
    >
    > > but the SMART comment on that said passing.

    >
    > I dont think I've ever seen that say anything else, even with a known bad drive.
    >
    > > This time there's no problem with the Current Pending Sector Count.

    >
    > Correct.
    >
    > > I'm wondering if this problem is a problem that doesn't show up in the SMART report.

    >
    > The SMART report is JUST about the hard drive. If the fault is
    > outside the hard drive, it wont have any effect on the SMART report.


    What I meant is that maybe it's possible the drive has a problem that
    doesn't show up in the SMART report. Do all significant problems show
    up in the SMART report?

    >
    > Sure, but thats not going to be easy if its a dry joint or cracked trace.


    >
    > No problem, happy to continue for as long as it takes.

    --
    Nehmo


  2. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again

    Nehmo wrote in news:1188908288.890757.64670@d55g2000hsg.googlegro ups.com
    > On Sep 3, 2:25 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
    > > Nehmo wrote:

    >
    > > No evidence that the drive has a problem so they may well refuse a warranty
    > > claim.

    >
    > The store already agreed to honor the warranty claim. I spoke to them
    > on the phone. So I can do it if I want.
    >
    > > You should try the drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.

    >
    > I just got Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for Windows from WD. I didn't
    > find anything like that for the Toshiba drive, the original drive.
    >
    > > > I bought it form Micro Center in Overland Park, Kansas, which has a 30
    > > > day return-merchandise period (in addition to the term of any manufacture
    > > > warranty). But since I have to clone it to a new drive, I have to buy the
    > > > new one first, then clone, then wipe, and then return for a new drive.

    > >
    > > I wouldnt do that personally given that the drive appears to be fine.

    >
    > To review:
    > This is the same problem as before; the same exact symptoms manifest.
    > The first time, the Toshiba drive, the original drive, showed some
    > SMART problems.


    > The Current Pending Sector Count appeared bad.


    It wasn't bad. It showed there were unreadable sectors on the drive.
    They could have been dealt with.

    > Changing the drive, or something that happened while changing the
    > drive, solved the problem.


    You left out that you had to retighten some screws first before you
    could make it work.

    > Now the laptop, with the new WD drive, after a month of working fine,
    > is exhibiting the same symptoms as before.


    Which may have been a mechanical/electrical mounting problem all along.

    > But this time the drive isn't showing any problem in the SMART results.


    Exactly.

    > The cooling design for the drive is not good, but the temperature
    > hasn't exceeded the manufacturer's limits.
    >
    > >
    > > > But should I not get one with a 5400 RPM?
    > > > Should I get one with a low idle power consumption?

    > >
    > > Yes, since its clear that the laptop doesnt cool the drive properly.
    > >
    > > > I'll try removing the drive and then just putting it back in place.
    > > > Maybe the connector is defective. Or maybe something else
    > > > is wrong, as you suggested.

    > >
    > > Yeah, I think thats most likely. Classic dry joint/cracked trace type fault.
    > >
    > > > It's worth mentioning that the problem began both times when
    > > > I was watching a video. This is a operation that taxes the drive.
    > > > Also, the drive indicator light flicks on in-step with the stuttering as
    > > > it happens.

    > >
    > > Yeah, the fault is likely producing intermittent data flow from the drive.
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > > > Actually, last time, you didn't like the Current Pending Sector Count,


    > > Yes, that drive was certainly dying.


    That's debatable.

    > This one isnt.


    Yet it shows the same symptoms.

    Which makes the 'other drive dying' debatable.

    > >
    > > > but the SMART comment on that said passing.

    > >
    > > I dont think I've ever seen that say anything else, even with a known bad
    > > drive.
    > >
    > > > This time there's no problem with the Current Pending Sector Count.

    > >
    > > Correct.
    > >
    > > > I'm wondering if this problem is a problem that doesn't show up in the
    > > > SMART report.

    > >
    > > The SMART report is JUST about the hard drive. If the fault is
    > > outside the hard drive, it wont have any effect on the SMART report.


    > What I meant is that maybe it's possible the drive has a problem that
    > doesn't show up in the SMART report. Do all significant problems show
    > up in the SMART report?


    No.

    >
    > >
    > > Sure, but thats not going to be easy if its a dry joint or cracked trace.

    >
    > >
    > > No problem, happy to continue for as long as it takes.


  3. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again

    Nehmo wrote
    > Rod Speed wrote
    >> Nehmo wrote


    >> You should try the drive manufacturer's diagnostic on the drive.


    > I just got Data Lifeguard Diagnostic for Windows from WD. I didn't
    > find anything like that for the Toshiba drive, the original drive.


    Yeah, thats the big problem with Toshiba drives, the lack of a diag.

    >>> I bought it form Micro Center in Overland Park, Kansas,
    >>> which has a 30 day return-merchandise period (in addition
    >>> to the term of any manufacture warranty). But since I have
    >>> to clone it to a new drive, I have to buy the new one first,
    >>> then clone, then wipe, and then return for a new drive.


    >> I wouldnt do that personally given that the drive appears to be fine.


    > To review:
    > This is the same problem as before; the same exact symptoms manifest.


    Yes, but with the original drive, it did have problems clearly
    visible in the SMART report and the current drive does not.

    So its likely that the symptoms arent actually due to the drive now.

    > The first time, the Toshiba drive, the original drive, showed some
    > SMART problems. The Current Pending Sector Count appeared bad.
    > Changing the drive, or something that happened while changing the
    > drive, solved the problem.


    > Now the laptop, with the new WD drive, after a month of working fine,
    > is exhibiting the same symptoms as before. But this time the drive
    > isn't showing any problem in the SMART results.


    > The cooling design for the drive is not good, but the
    > temperature hasn't exceeded the manufacturer's limits.


    And you get the same problem even when the drive cool after being off overnight.

    >>> But should I not get one with a 5400 RPM?
    >>> Should I get one with a low idle power consumption?


    >> Yes, since its clear that the laptop doesnt cool the drive properly.


    >>> I'll try removing the drive and then just putting it back in place.
    >>> Maybe the connector is defective. Or maybe something else
    >>> is wrong, as you suggested.


    >> Yeah, I think thats most likely. Classic dry joint/cracked trace type fault.


    >>> It's worth mentioning that the problem began both times when
    >>> I was watching a video. This is a operation that taxes the drive.
    >>> Also, the drive indicator light flicks on in-step with the
    >>> stuttering as it happens.


    >> Yeah, the fault is likely producing intermittent data flow from the drive.


    >>> Actually, last time, you didn't like the Current Pending Sector Count,


    >> Yes, that drive was certainly dying. This one isnt.


    >>> but the SMART comment on that said passing.


    >> I dont think I've ever seen that say anything else, even with a
    >> known bad drive.


    >>> This time there's no problem with the Current Pending Sector Count.


    >> Correct.


    >>> I'm wondering if this problem is a problem that doesn't show up in
    >>> the SMART report.


    >> The SMART report is JUST about the hard drive. If the fault is
    >> outside the hard drive, it wont have any effect on the SMART report.


    > What I meant is that maybe it's possible the drive has
    > a problem that doesn't show up in the SMART report.


    Thats very unlikely, particularly with two completely different drive models.

    > Do all significant problems show up in the SMART report?


    All significant DRIVE problems do. Faults in the system the drive is plugged into dont.

    >> Sure, but thats not going to be easy if its a dry joint or cracked trace.


    >> No problem, happy to continue for as long as it takes.




  4. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again


    "Nehmo" wrote in message
    news:1188761100.707356.293160@k79g2000hse.googlegr oups.com...
    > On Aug 31, 6:06 pm, "Rod Speed" wrote:
    >> Nehmo wrote:
    >> > On Aug 30, 6:03 pm, Arno Wagner wrote:
    >> >> In comp.sys.ibm.pc.hardware.storageNehmo
    >> >> wrote:

    >>
    >> >>> Not so long ago, I posted about a problem I had with the hard drive:
    >> >>>http://snipurl.com/1q4s3, another thread athttp://snipurl.com/1q4sz
    >> >>> Everything was hesitating or stuttering. I cloned the drive and
    >> >>> replaced it, because the SMART results indicated it was going bad
    >> >>> ("C5
    >> >>> Current Pending Sector Count 0 100 100 19 OK: Always passing"). The
    >> >>> drive replacement solved the problem until today.
    >> >>> It seems I'm having the same problem - the same symptoms - with this
    >> >>> new drive. I haven't done much to fix it yet. I'm defraging now to
    >> >>> see
    >> >>> if that helps. Below are the current SMART results.
    >> >>> Is the new drive bad too? Any ideas? Ron, I hope you're out there
    >> >>> :-)
    >> >>> Device Description
    >> >>> WDC WD800BEVE-11UYT0 (WD-WXH607044547)
    >> >>> ID Attribute Description Threshold Value Worst Data
    >> >>> Status 01 Raw Read Error Rate 51 200 200 7
    >> >>> OK: Value is normal 03 Spin Up Time 21 189 188 1516
    >> >>> OK: Value is normal 04 Start/Stop Count 0 100 100
    >> >>> 103 OK: Always passing 05 Reallocated Sector Count 140
    >> >>> 200 200 0 OK: Value is normal 07 Seek Error Rate 51
    >> >>> 100 253 0 OK: Value is normal 09 Power-On Time Count
    >> >>> 0 100 100 373 OK: Always passing 0A Spin Retry
    >> >>> Count 51 100 100 0 OK: Value is normal 0B
    >> >>> Calibration Retry Count 51 100 253 0 OK: Value
    >> >>> is normal 0C Power Cycle Count 0 100 100 92
    >> >>> OK: Always passing
    >> >>> C0 Power-Off Retract Count 0 200 200 7 OK:
    >> >>> Always passing
    >> >>> C1 Load/Unload Cycle Count 0 197 197 10827 OK:
    >> >>> Always passing
    >> >>> C2 Temperature 0 97 90 50 OK: Always
    >> >>> passing

    >>
    >> >> 50C is rather hot. If it exceeds that it may get semoconductor
    >> >> malfunction (such as decreased read amplifier performance) due to
    >> >> obverheating. The "90" in the "worst" column indicates that it gets
    >> >> even hotter from time to time.

    >>
    >> >>> C4 Reallocation Event Count 0 200 200 0
    >> >>> OK: Always passing
    >> >>> C5 Current Pending Sector Count 0 200 200 0
    >> >>> OK: Always passing
    >> >>> C6 Off-Line Uncorrectable Sector Count 0 100 253
    >> >>> 0 OK: Always passing C7 Ultra ATA CRC Error Rate 0
    >> >>> 200 200 0 OK: Always passing
    >> >>> C8 Write Error Rate 51 100 253 0 OK:
    >> >>> Value is normal

    >>
    >> >> Ok, the nly suspicuous thing I find is the drive temperature.
    >> >> While this is a 5400 rpm drive, this drive has a rather high idle
    >> >> power consumption, using 2W.

    >>
    >> >> That may be all there is to it.
    >> > What do you mean "all there is to it"?

    >>
    >> That the only problem is that the drive is running at too high a temperature.
    >>
    >> > Why is the drive too hot,

    >>
    >> Normally because its not getting enough cooling, enough airflow over the drive.
    >>
    >> > and what should I do abut it?

    >>
    >> Work out why its not getting enough airflow over the drive.
    >>
    >> See if the fan inside the laptop is clogged up with fur.
    >>
    >> Make sure you arent blocking the air intakes for the laptop, it isnt hard with some
    >> laptops, just putting it on a soft thing like a seat can do that with some laptops.
    >>
    >> What room temperature were you seeing when you got that 50C drive temp ?

    >
    >
    > The room temperature is normal, around 70 degrees F.
    > The drive specs seem to allow an operating temperature of 60 degrees
    > C, http://www.wdc.com/en/products/produ...02&language=en
    > I'm not blocking any vents.
    > The problem exists even when I start the computer. The Windows start-
    > sound is jerky. The temp when I last started was 46 degrees C.
    > I already opened the laptop looking for fur. I didn't find much. I'll
    > open it again, but the drive compartment is different from the area
    > cooled by the CPU fan.
    > About in the middle of this page http://www.notebookreview.com/default.asp?newsID=2580
    > , you can see a pic of the CPU fan. The article notes that there is no
    > direct cooling for the HD. There is a PCMCIA slot above the HD, and
    > the article notes taking out the dummy card lowers the drive temp a
    > bit. I just did this, but I believe something is permanently damaged.
    > The last time this problem presented itself, when I wrote the previous
    > threads about a month ago, I solved the problem by replacing the
    > drive. It must be the same problem, but I don't understand what's
    > going on. Did the old drive, the one before the replacement, die from
    > being too hot? And now is the same thing happening to the new drive?
    > Should I replace this drive too?
    > --
    > Nehmo
    >


    This happens in safe mode also?



  5. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again

    On Sep 4, 9:54 am, "Folkert Rienstra" wrote:


    > > To review:
    > > This is the same problem as before; the same exact symptoms manifest.
    > > The first time, the Toshiba drive, the original drive, showed some
    > > SMART problems.
    > > The Current Pending Sector Count appeared bad.

    >
    > It wasn't bad. It showed there were unreadable sectors on the drive.
    > They could have been dealt with.


    In your opinion, the former drive wasn't bad. I still have it. Yes, I
    can read it using the USB connected external adapter. It doesn't seem
    to be reading with any trouble, except I still get the hesitation to a
    degree. When I _do_ get the hesitation, I see the internal drive
    indicator light flicker. I speculate the external drive (the original
    Toshiba drive) is doing OK, but its output is interrupted whenever the
    internal drive gets accessed.

    I've been trying to play movies from one and then the other drive to
    see if there is any difference. It's hard to tell because even if I
    play a movie on the F drive (the external Toshiba) the C internal
    drive comes into play some how.
    >
    > > Changing the drive, or something that happened while changing the
    > > drive, solved the problem.

    >
    > You left out that you had to retighten some screws first before you
    > could make it work.


    Actually, that happened when I was cleaning the vents prior to
    changing the drive, but the implications are the same. Maybe something
    isn't connecting properly. The connector for the drive seems most
    likely to be the problem.
    >
    > > Now the laptop, with the new WD drive, after a month of working fine,
    > > is exhibiting the same symptoms as before.

    >
    > Which may have been a mechanical/electrical mounting problem all along.


    I suppose I could push the connector tighter, but there's not much
    else to do.

    >
    > > But this time the drive isn't showing any problem in the SMART results.

    >
    > Exactly.
    >
    >
    >


    > > > Yes, that drive was certainly dying.

    >
    > That's debatable.
    >
    > > This one isnt.

    >
    > Yet it shows the same symptoms.
    >
    > Which makes the 'other drive dying' debatable.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > Do all significant problems show
    > > up in the SMART report?

    >
    > No.


    You and Rod seem to disagree on this. He says all significant drive
    problems show up in the SMART report.

    --
    Nehmo


  6. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again


    does the hesitation happen in safe mode?



  7. Re: Everything hesitating or stuttering; Fixed by replacing the drive, but now happening again

    Nehmo wrote in news:1189284970.376093.217160@y42g2000hsy.googlegr oups.com
    > On Sep 4, 9:54 am, "Folkert Rienstra" wrote:
    >
    > > > To review:
    > > > This is the same problem as before; the same exact symptoms manifest.
    > > > The first time, the Toshiba drive, the original drive, showed some
    > > > SMART problems. The Current Pending Sector Count appeared bad.

    > >
    > > It wasn't bad. It showed there were unreadable sectors on the drive.
    > > They could have been dealt with.


    > In your opinion, the former drive wasn't bad.


    Not 'necessarily' bad. The 'bad' sectors may have been induced externally.
    They'll disappear once overwritten.

    > I still have it. Yes, I can read it using the USB connected external
    > adapter. It doesn't seem to be reading with any trouble,


    It should (with trouble) if it is hitting on the pending bad sectors, which
    suggests that they have been put out of use in the filesystem by the OS.

    > except I still get the hesitation to a degree. When I _do_ get
    > the hesitation, I see the internal drive indicator light flicker.


    Suggesting memory paging, maybe?

    > I speculate the external drive (the original Toshiba drive) is doing OK,
    > but its output is interrupted whenever the internal drive gets accessed.


    Perhaps. It could be the other way around if the stutter causes the OS
    to write to a system log file.

    > I've been trying to play movies from one and then the other drive
    > to see if there is any difference. It's hard to tell because even if
    > I play a movie on the F drive (the external Toshiba) the C internal
    > drive comes into play some how.


    That's making analyzing this problem very difficult.
    Unless of course this actually *is* the problem, but then, why did
    it go away for a while? On the other hand, it could be an organiza-
    tional problem that needs to build up again first, to re-show itself.

    > >
    > > > Changing the drive, or something that happened while changing the
    > > > drive, solved the problem.

    > >
    > > You left out that you had to retighten some screws first before you
    > > could make it work.

    >
    > Actually, that happened when I was cleaning the vents prior to changing
    > the drive, but the implications are the same. Maybe something isn't
    > connecting properly. The connector for the drive seems most likely to
    > be the problem.
    > >
    > > > Now the laptop, with the new WD drive, after a month of working fine,
    > > > is exhibiting the same symptoms as before.

    > >
    > > Which may have been a mechanical/electrical mounting problem all along.

    >
    > I suppose I could push the connector tighter, but there's not much else
    > to do.
    >
    > >
    > > > But this time the drive isn't showing any problem in the SMART results.

    > >
    > > Exactly.
    > >

    >
    > > > > Yes, that drive was certainly dying.

    > >
    > > That's debatable.
    > >
    > > > This one isnt.

    > >
    > > Yet it shows the same symptoms.
    > > Which makes the 'other drive dying' debatable.
    > >
    > > > Do all significant problems show up in the SMART report?

    > >
    > > No.


    > You and Rod seem to disagree on this.


    Not that uncommon.

    > He says all significant drive problems show up in the SMART report.


    No he didn't:

    "All significant DRIVE problems do. Faults in the system the drive is plugged into dont"

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