Hard Drive Password Problems - Storage

This is a discussion on Hard Drive Password Problems - Storage ; On Feb 4, 9:41 am, John Doue wrote: > Rod Speed wrote: > > Vanguard wrote > >> Rod Speed wrote > >>> John Doue wrote > >>>> Vanguard wrote > >>>>> Barry Watzman wrote > > >>>>>> Re: "The ...

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Thread: Hard Drive Password Problems

  1. Re: Hard Drive Password Problems

    On Feb 4, 9:41 am, John Doue wrote:
    > Rod Speed wrote:
    > > Vanguard wrote
    > >> Rod Speed wrote
    > >>> John Doue wrote
    > >>>> Vanguard wrote
    > >>>>> Barry Watzman wrote

    >
    > >>>>>> Re: "The other half of the hash (to decode) was back in the original laptop. Preventing
    > >>>>>> someone from getting at it, especially by stealing the drive, is just what that security is
    > >>>>>> for; i.e., unless the drive is in the original laptop that hashed up the drive's contents AND
    > >>>>>> you know the password, you will never get at the decoded contents of the drive."

    >
    > >>>>>> I don't think that's correct. This isn't windows,

    >
    > >>>>> I don't care what OS is on the drive, encrypted or not. The
    > >>>>> whole-disk encryption is performed in hardware. Half of that
    > >>>>> support is on the hard drive, the other half is back in the mobo.
    > >>>>> If the drive wanders off from the mobo that hashed up the drive,
    > >>>>> that drive cannot be decoded. It is very similar to e-mail
    > >>>>> encryption: the source (owner of the certificate or the mobo) has
    > >>>>> the "private" portion and the target (recipient or hard drive) has
    > >>>>> the "public" portion. Without both, there's no decryption, and the
    > >>>>> source controls that.

    >
    > >>>>>> this is an IDE

    >
    > >>>>> Yep, as I said, this hardware encryption was first provided in ATA-3 specification.

    >
    > > No it wasnt.

    >
    > >>>>> It is NOT solely implemented on the hard drive alone.

    >
    > > There was no hardware encryption on the hard drive with the ATA spec.

    >
    > >>>>> Unfortunately it costs to get copies of the ATA specs fromhttp://www.t13.org/and I really
    > >>>>> don't need them.

    >
    > > The drafts are readily available for free and that detail didnt change.

    >
    > >>>>>> Otherwise, as has happened here, if the computer motherboard dies,
    > >>>>>> then the drive is lost, and that is beyond secure, it is "data endangering".

    >
    > >>>>> Yep, that is what happens. And that is why you MUST do data
    > >>>>> backups since they won't depend on the private key for the
    > >>>>> encryption that the mobo has. The backups can either be open in
    > >>>>> that anyone could restore from them or you would password-protect
    > >>>>> them, but that password protection is entirely within the backup
    > >>>>> file so you could use another computer running the same backup
    > >>>>> program to restore your data because the password was only used to encode the file (i.e., there
    > >>>>> is no separation of private and
    > >>>>> public keys, there is just the one key used to encode the file).

    >
    > >>>> I am curious to know what the final word is on that issue. Until reading your post, I shared
    > >>>> Barry's opinion. If you are correct, and you seem to know your stuff,

    >
    > >>> He doesnt, actually. Where the encryption is done is an entirely
    > >>> separate issue to whether the ATA password can be reentered
    > >>> for a drive that is moved from one system that supports ATA
    > >>> passwords to another that also does.

    >
    > >>http://www.ami.com/support/doc/AMIBI...D_Security.pdf

    >
    > >> The user password is normally used to unlock the hard drive.

    >
    > > Yep, and it says absolutely NOTHING about any ATA spec encryption.

    >
    > >> The master password, if one exists, can also be used to unlock the hard drive.

    >
    > > Irrelevant to your pig ignorant claims about ENCRYPTION.

    >
    > >> That is why I've seen some backdoor lists floating around of what some mobo makers have been found
    > >> to commonly use for a master password.

    >
    > > Pity the user is welcome to change that and obviously should do so.

    >
    > >> The master password is also why you can call the maker of your mobo as they may be able to tell
    > >> you what is the master password for you to unlock the drive.

    >
    > > Pity that only allows you to ERASE the drive, not access the DATA.

    >
    > >> Drive locking protection is obviously degraded if such backdoor [master] passwords are common

    >
    > > No it doesnt if you actually have a clue and change that master password.

    >
    > >> and maybe that's why security-conscious users and corporations rely on whole-disk encryption
    > >> instead.

    >
    > > Thats for a different reason entirely, because its actually possible to bypass
    > > that password protection when you have physical access to the drive.

    >
    > >> Ron is correct in that I was mixing hard drive locking with whole-disk
    > >> encryption. These are separate security mechanisms. From the OP's
    > >> post, perhaps just disk locking was employed and not encryption.

    >
    > >> Since the OP gave absolutely no details on WHAT was the original computer in which the drive was
    > >> locked (and maybe encrypted, too), guesses is all that can be profferred.

    >
    > > Anyone with a clue has noticed that you mangled the story completely.

    >
    > >> Since the OP already tried in another computer that prompted for the password but it did not work
    > >> then it sure seems that the BIOS makers can customize how they support the drive lock feature.

    >
    > > You dont even know that the OP is entering the password correctly.

    >
    > >> That is, just because there is an ATA standard, it could be rather vague

    >
    > > No it isnt.

    >
    > >> or the BIOS makers may even deliberately tweak it so to be almost proprietary.

    >
    > > No they dont.

    >
    > >> As Odie alluded, drive locking may not be compatible between different BIOSes.

    >
    > > He didnt say anything like that. The ATA standard makes it very clear how it works.

    >
    > >> I'm wondering if a replacement of the PCB on the hard drive might "repair" or unlock the drive.
    > >> That is, get another exact same drive and use its PCB on the problematic drive. Since the
    > >> replacement PCB hasn't been password enabled yet, maybe it would permit access to the drive.

    >
    > > VERY unlikely that it would be that pathetically implemented.

    >
    > > Because that would defeat the whole point of the ATA security feature.

    >
    > >> I tried this once with an old drive (so getting an exact replacement was pricey due to rarity)
    > >> because a voltage regulator component blew which rendered the drive useless (it wouldn't spin up).
    > >> The replacement PCB got the drive to spin up.

    >
    > > Irrelevant to the ATA security feature.

    >
    > >> It could even be that the translation geometry for LBA mode of the
    > >> original computer doesn't match that used in the second computer.

    >
    > > Wrong again. You'd get a different result if that was the problem.

    >
    > >> Start athttp://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesLBA-c.html. Then
    > >> readhttp://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesCaveats-c.htmlabout
    > >> the hazard (to data) of moving hard drives between computers, especially with different BIOSes.

    >
    > > Pity that is irrelevant when the AUTO drive type is used.

    >
    > >> I have ran into this when moving drives between hosts really old hardware hosts to new hardware
    > >> hosts.

    >
    > > Pity his isnt really old hardware.

    >
    > Rod,
    >
    > Those links are interesting but it would be nice to know when they were
    > written. They do not seem to relate to today's hard drive issues.
    >
    > Regards
    >
    > --
    > John Doue


    Thanks for all the replys (and discussion)

    To answer a few questions:
    - the hardrive is a Seagate Momentus 7200.1
    - the original laptop is an LG and uses Phoenix Bios
    - the hardrive is locked using ATA Password locking and not encrypted

    Any further thoughts on why the HP laptop doesn't recognise the
    password are appreciated.

    Prior to posting I had researched this quite a bit and have checked
    most of the links for geting to the Master password and will probably
    try this in due course if I can;t solve the user password issue.

    Thanks again.

    Jason


  2. Re: Hard Drive Password Problems

    groupware@rocketmail.com wrote:
    > On Feb 4, 9:41 am, John Doue wrote:
    >> Rod Speed wrote:
    >>> Vanguard wrote
    >>>> Rod Speed wrote
    >>>>> John Doue wrote
    >>>>>> Vanguard wrote
    >>>>>>> Barry Watzman wrote

    >>
    >>>>>>>> Re: "The other half of the hash (to decode) was back in the
    >>>>>>>> original laptop. Preventing someone from getting at it,
    >>>>>>>> especially by stealing the drive, is just what that security
    >>>>>>>> is for; i.e., unless the drive is in the original laptop that
    >>>>>>>> hashed up the drive's contents AND you know the password, you
    >>>>>>>> will never get at the decoded contents of the drive."

    >>
    >>>>>>>> I don't think that's correct. This isn't windows,

    >>
    >>>>>>> I don't care what OS is on the drive, encrypted or not. The
    >>>>>>> whole-disk encryption is performed in hardware. Half of that
    >>>>>>> support is on the hard drive, the other half is back in the
    >>>>>>> mobo.
    >>>>>>> If the drive wanders off from the mobo that hashed up the drive,
    >>>>>>> that drive cannot be decoded. It is very similar to e-mail
    >>>>>>> encryption: the source (owner of the certificate or the mobo)
    >>>>>>> has
    >>>>>>> the "private" portion and the target (recipient or hard drive)
    >>>>>>> has
    >>>>>>> the "public" portion. Without both, there's no decryption, and
    >>>>>>> the
    >>>>>>> source controls that.

    >>
    >>>>>>>> this is an IDE

    >>
    >>>>>>> Yep, as I said, this hardware encryption was first provided in
    >>>>>>> ATA-3 specification.

    >>
    >>> No it wasnt.

    >>
    >>>>>>> It is NOT solely implemented on the hard drive alone.

    >>
    >>> There was no hardware encryption on the hard drive with the ATA
    >>> spec.

    >>
    >>>>>>> Unfortunately it costs to get copies of the ATA specs
    >>>>>>> fromhttp://www.t13.org/and I really don't need them.

    >>
    >>> The drafts are readily available for free and that detail didnt
    >>> change.

    >>
    >>>>>>>> Otherwise, as has happened here, if the computer motherboard
    >>>>>>>> dies,
    >>>>>>>> then the drive is lost, and that is beyond secure, it is "data
    >>>>>>>> endangering".

    >>
    >>>>>>> Yep, that is what happens. And that is why you MUST do data
    >>>>>>> backups since they won't depend on the private key for the
    >>>>>>> encryption that the mobo has. The backups can either be open in
    >>>>>>> that anyone could restore from them or you would
    >>>>>>> password-protect
    >>>>>>> them, but that password protection is entirely within the backup
    >>>>>>> file so you could use another computer running the same backup
    >>>>>>> program to restore your data because the password was only used
    >>>>>>> to encode the file (i.e., there is no separation of private and
    >>>>>>> public keys, there is just the one key used to encode the file).

    >>
    >>>>>> I am curious to know what the final word is on that issue. Until
    >>>>>> reading your post, I shared Barry's opinion. If you are correct,
    >>>>>> and you seem to know your stuff,

    >>
    >>>>> He doesnt, actually. Where the encryption is done is an entirely
    >>>>> separate issue to whether the ATA password can be reentered
    >>>>> for a drive that is moved from one system that supports ATA
    >>>>> passwords to another that also does.

    >>
    >>>> http://www.ami.com/support/doc/AMIBI...D_Security.pdf

    >>
    >>>> The user password is normally used to unlock the hard drive.

    >>
    >>> Yep, and it says absolutely NOTHING about any ATA spec encryption.

    >>
    >>>> The master password, if one exists, can also be used to unlock the
    >>>> hard drive.

    >>
    >>> Irrelevant to your pig ignorant claims about ENCRYPTION.

    >>
    >>>> That is why I've seen some backdoor lists floating around of what
    >>>> some mobo makers have been found to commonly use for a master
    >>>> password.

    >>
    >>> Pity the user is welcome to change that and obviously should do so.

    >>
    >>>> The master password is also why you can call the maker of your
    >>>> mobo as they may be able to tell you what is the master password
    >>>> for you to unlock the drive.

    >>
    >>> Pity that only allows you to ERASE the drive, not access the DATA.

    >>
    >>>> Drive locking protection is obviously degraded if such backdoor
    >>>> [master] passwords are common

    >>
    >>> No it doesnt if you actually have a clue and change that master
    >>> password.

    >>
    >>>> and maybe that's why security-conscious users and corporations
    >>>> rely on whole-disk encryption instead.

    >>
    >>> Thats for a different reason entirely, because its actually
    >>> possible to bypass that password protection when you have physical
    >>> access to the drive.

    >>
    >>>> Ron is correct in that I was mixing hard drive locking with
    >>>> whole-disk
    >>>> encryption. These are separate security mechanisms. From the OP's
    >>>> post, perhaps just disk locking was employed and not encryption.

    >>
    >>>> Since the OP gave absolutely no details on WHAT was the original
    >>>> computer in which the drive was locked (and maybe encrypted, too),
    >>>> guesses is all that can be profferred.

    >>
    >>> Anyone with a clue has noticed that you mangled the story
    >>> completely.

    >>
    >>>> Since the OP already tried in another computer that prompted for
    >>>> the password but it did not work then it sure seems that the BIOS
    >>>> makers can customize how they support the drive lock feature.

    >>
    >>> You dont even know that the OP is entering the password correctly.

    >>
    >>>> That is, just because there is an ATA standard, it could be rather
    >>>> vague

    >>
    >>> No it isnt.

    >>
    >>>> or the BIOS makers may even deliberately tweak it so to be almost
    >>>> proprietary.

    >>
    >>> No they dont.

    >>
    >>>> As Odie alluded, drive locking may not be compatible between
    >>>> different BIOSes.

    >>
    >>> He didnt say anything like that. The ATA standard makes it very
    >>> clear how it works.

    >>
    >>>> I'm wondering if a replacement of the PCB on the hard drive might
    >>>> "repair" or unlock the drive. That is, get another exact same
    >>>> drive and use its PCB on the problematic drive. Since the
    >>>> replacement PCB hasn't been password enabled yet, maybe it would
    >>>> permit access to the drive.

    >>
    >>> VERY unlikely that it would be that pathetically implemented.

    >>
    >>> Because that would defeat the whole point of the ATA security
    >>> feature.

    >>
    >>>> I tried this once with an old drive (so getting an exact
    >>>> replacement was pricey due to rarity) because a voltage regulator
    >>>> component blew which rendered the drive useless (it wouldn't spin
    >>>> up). The replacement PCB got the drive to spin up.

    >>
    >>> Irrelevant to the ATA security feature.

    >>
    >>>> It could even be that the translation geometry for LBA mode of the
    >>>> original computer doesn't match that used in the second computer.

    >>
    >>> Wrong again. You'd get a different result if that was the problem.

    >>
    >>>> Start athttp://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesLBA-c.html. Then
    >>>> readhttp://www.pcguide.com/ref/hdd/bios/modesCaveats-c.htmlabout
    >>>> the hazard (to data) of moving hard drives between computers,
    >>>> especially with different BIOSes.

    >>
    >>> Pity that is irrelevant when the AUTO drive type is used.

    >>
    >>>> I have ran into this when moving drives between hosts really old
    >>>> hardware hosts to new hardware hosts.

    >>
    >>> Pity his isnt really old hardware.

    >>
    >> Rod,
    >>
    >> Those links are interesting but it would be nice to know when they
    >> were written. They do not seem to relate to today's hard drive
    >> issues.
    >>
    >> Regards
    >>
    >> --
    >> John Doue

    >
    > Thanks for all the replys (and discussion)
    >
    > To answer a few questions:
    > - the hardrive is a Seagate Momentus 7200.1
    > - the original laptop is an LG and uses Phoenix Bios
    > - the hardrive is locked using ATA Password locking and not encrypted


    > Any further thoughts on why the HP laptop doesn't recognise the
    > password are appreciated.


    You've basically got to test the two obvious possibilitys, that there
    is something about the different keyboard that matters, or that you
    have managed to forget the original password, or the fine detail of it.

    The obvious way to try the keyboard possibility is to try
    it in a laptop with the same keyboard as the original.

    > Prior to posting I had researched this quite a bit and have checked
    > most of the links for geting to the Master password and will probably
    > try this in due course if I can;t solve the user password issue.




  3. Re: Hard Drive Password Problems

    "Rod Speed" wrote in news:52mudqF1po6itU1
    @mid.individual.net:

    >> Thanks for all the replys (and discussion)
    >>
    >> To answer a few questions:
    >> - the hardrive is a Seagate Momentus 7200.1
    >> - the original laptop is an LG and uses Phoenix Bios
    >> - the hardrive is locked using ATA Password locking and not encrypted

    >
    >> Any further thoughts on why the HP laptop doesn't recognise the
    >> password are appreciated.

    >
    > You've basically got to test the two obvious possibilitys, that there
    > is something about the different keyboard that matters, or that you
    > have managed to forget the original password, or the fine detail of it.
    >
    > The obvious way to try the keyboard possibility is to try
    > it in a laptop with the same keyboard as the original.
    >
    >> Prior to posting I had researched this quite a bit and have checked
    >> most of the links for geting to the Master password and will probably
    >> try this in due course if I can;t solve the user password issue.



    For computers in which the BIOS does not provide an interface to the ata
    password, you may wish to instead try the software program ATAPWD to
    attempt to revive the drive. To obtain atapwd and read a discussion of the
    issues, you can visit:

    http://www.rockbox.org/lock.html

    Regards,








  4. Re: Hard Drive Password Problems

    "Rod Speed" wrote in message news:52lnnhF1p6r6cU1@mid.individual.net...
    >
    > Vanguard wrote
    >
    >> Unfortunately it costs to get copies of the ATA specs from
    >> http://www.t13.org/

    >
    > The drafts are readily available for free and that detail didnt
    > change.


    They are? Got a URL for the free copy of the full specs for all ATA
    revisions? What I see at
    http://www.t13.org/Standards/Default...ocumentStage=2
    is a list (but no links for them) and the comment "Copies of published
    standards may be purchased from: ANSI, ...". Where are the free copies
    then? When I Google around looking for ATA specs, I end up following
    links that take me back to t13.org and they redirect you to ANSI where
    they charge for them ($30 apiece for each revision of the AT Attachment
    spec, and ATA-7 has 3 volume where each is $30 or all 3 for $80).

    > Yep, and it says absolutely NOTHING about any ATA spec encryption.


    Sorry, meant ATA spec hard drive password locking. I'm sure the spec
    calls it something else. According to
    http://www.heise.de/ct/english/05/08/172/, it's called "Security Feature
    Set". It is part of the ATA spec.


  5. Re: Hard Drive Password Problems

    Vanguard wrote
    > Rod Speed wrote
    >> Vanguard wrote


    >>> Unfortunately it costs to get copies of the ATA specs from http://www.t13.org/


    >> The drafts are readily available for free and that detail didnt change.


    > They are?


    Yep.

    > Got a URL for the free copy of the full specs for all ATA revisions?


    I never said anything about all ATA revisions.

    > What I see at
    > http://www.t13.org/Standards/Default...ocumentStage=2
    > is a list (but no links for them) and the comment "Copies of published standards may be purchased
    > from: ANSI, ...". Where are the free copies then?


    http://www.t13.org/Documents/Default...ocumentStage=2
    http://www.t13.org/Documents/Default...ocumentStage=1

    > When I Google around looking for ATA specs, I end up following links that take me back to t13.org
    > and they redirect you to ANSI where they charge for them ($30 apiece for each revision of the AT
    > Attachment spec, and ATA-7 has 3 volume where each is $30 or all 3 for $80).


    You need to work on your google skills
    http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=e...%2FATAPI+draft
    produces those drafts right at the top.

    >> Yep, and it says absolutely NOTHING about any ATA spec encryption.


    > Sorry, meant ATA spec hard drive password locking. I'm sure the spec calls it something else.
    > According to
    > http://www.heise.de/ct/english/05/08/172/, it's called "Security Feature Set". It is part of the
    > ATA spec.


    Pity it includes nothing about drive encryption.



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