Help hard drives keep clicking and dying - Storage

This is a discussion on Help hard drives keep clicking and dying - Storage ; Arno Wagner writes: > > does not say a power supply is functioning properly. And that > > unusually high 5 volts in combination with excessively low 12 volts > > further suggest a problem. > > Or too few ...

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Thread: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

  1. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Arno Wagner writes:
    > > does not say a power supply is functioning properly. And that
    > > unusually high 5 volts in combination with excessively low 12 volts
    > > further suggest a problem.

    >
    > Or too few windings on the 12V path. Have seen that several times in
    > PC PSUs that worked fine.


    These PSU's aren't regulated using feedback against an internal
    voltage reference?

  2. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Arno Wagner wrote:
    >. My advice to the OP is to try with a different PSU.
    > An oscilloscope is not only expensive, but requires
    > experience and understanding to interpret the
    > measurements taken with it.


    In that long post, you insist power supply voltages are OK. Why then
    do you recommend he replace the PSU? Why should he replace a PSU when
    you claim his power supply voltages are just fine? Do we call that a
    contradiction - or a concession that 11.655 is too low?

    Nobody said he should use an oscilloscope. An oscilloscope requires
    so much "training" that I was using one in the days of John Kennedy.
    How did I use something so complex - especially since I have no idea
    about 11.655 volts. And clearly the OP should replace his PSU when
    Arno knows all voltages were OK. What a contorted world we live in
    when facts need not comply with conclusions.


  3. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Previously Paul Rubin wrote:
    > Arno Wagner writes:
    >> > does not say a power supply is functioning properly. And that
    >> > unusually high 5 volts in combination with excessively low 12 volts
    >> > further suggest a problem.

    >>
    >> Or too few windings on the 12V path. Have seen that several times in
    >> PC PSUs that worked fine.


    > These PSU's aren't regulated using feedback against an internal
    > voltage reference?


    They are, but +3.3V, +5V and +12V are regulated together, i.e.
    a mix is regulated.

    Arno

  4. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Previously w_tom wrote:
    > Arno Wagner wrote:
    >>. My advice to the OP is to try with a different PSU.
    >> An oscilloscope is not only expensive, but requires
    >> experience and understanding to interpret the
    >> measurements taken with it.


    > In that long post, you insist power supply voltages are OK.


    I do not. Quite obviously and directly, actually. You seem either not to
    have read or understood what I wrote.

    Arno

    > Why then do you recommend he replace the PSU?
    > Why should he replace a PSU when
    > you claim his power supply voltages are just fine? Do we call that a
    > contradiction - or a concession that 11.655 is too low?


    > Nobody said he should use an oscilloscope. An oscilloscope requires
    > so much "training" that I was using one in the days of John Kennedy.
    > How did I use something so complex - especially since I have no idea
    > about 11.655 volts. And clearly the OP should replace his PSU when
    > Arno knows all voltages were OK. What a contorted world we live in
    > when facts need not comply with conclusions.



  5. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Previously w_tom wrote:
    [...]
    > or a concession that 11.655 is too low?


    BTW, why do you keep posting "11.655V"? That would require a 4+1/2 digit
    DMM. Quite a professional instrument and expensive. The OP has written
    11.65V.

    Arno

  6. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Arno Wagner writes:
    > They are, but +3.3V, +5V and +12V are regulated together, i.e.
    > a mix is regulated.


    I'm having a hard time picturing how this is done, given that the mix
    of loads for the different voltages can vary tremendously.

  7. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    w_tom wrote
    > Arno Wagner wrote
    >> My advice to the OP is to try with a different PSU.


    >> An oscilloscope is not only expensive, but requires experience
    >> and understanding to interpret the measurements taken with it.


    > In that long post, you insist power supply voltages are OK.


    No he didnt, he JUST said that your stupid pig ignorant
    claim about what the rails must read with a 3.5 digit
    multimeter to be within spec is just plain wrong and
    that that flaunts your complete pig ignorance in spades.

    > Why then do you recommend he replace the PSU?


    Because the OP got two drives clicking and that while
    that is possible with a coincidence, its an easy test for
    the possibility that the PSU is out of spec, even tho the
    two rail voltages measured later are within spec.

    > Why should he replace a PSU when you
    > claim his power supply voltages are just fine?


    See above.

    > Do we call that a contradiction - or a concession that 11.655 is too low?


    Neither, just a sensible precaution with two drives clicking.

    > Nobody said he should use an oscilloscope.


    The ATX spec says just that if you want to see the ripple level.

    > An oscilloscope requires so much "training"


    Only for the terminal boneheads like you. It aint that hard,
    particularly for measuring ripple on a power supply.

    > that I was using one in the days of John Kennedy.


    I was using one well before that.

    > How did I use something so complex - especially
    > since I have no idea about 11.655 volts.


    Even a terminal bonehead can be 'trained' to use something like
    that when he cant manage the basics like what the multimeter
    will read when the ripple is out of spec with an ATX power supply.

    You're so stupid that you cant even manage to grasp
    that a multimeter measures the AVERAGE voltage
    on the rails, not the DC level plus ripple peak.

    > And clearly the OP should replace his PSU
    > when Arno knows all voltages were OK.


    He never ever said that the voltage are
    always ok when not being measured, cretin.

    > What a contorted world we live in when facts need not comply with conclusions.


    You in spades with your pig ignorant drivel about what the
    multimeter will read when the ripple level is out of spec.

    Not a ****ing clue about even something as basic as that.



  8. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    w_tom wrote:

    >Again, spec numbers of 3.1, 4.75, and 11.4 means the meter must
    >report numbers above 3.23, 4.87, and 11.7 volts.


    You are cracked.

    >No mystery here.


    Actually, your assertions are quite mysterious.


  9. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    In article <1167483854.958489.107310@n51g2000cwc.googlegroups. com>,
    w_tom writes
    > You have just identified the problem. 12 volts is too low. Also the
    >5 volts being on the high side implies the power supply has hit its
    >limit.


    You're talking complete crap again w_tom. 11.65 is not too low for 12v
    and 5.12 is not too high for 5v. Go and read the ATX specs again.
    Wanker.

    --
    (\__/)
    (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
    (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

  10. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    In article <4vtu4cF1dffiqU1@mid.individual.net>, Arno Wagner
    writes

    >And wrong. I did not say that.


    w_tom's standard technique, when cornered, is to start lying and
    twisting the meaning of previous posts to support his argument.

    --
    (\__/)
    (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
    (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

  11. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    In article <1167670830.631378.151560@i12g2000cwa.googlegroups. com>,
    w_tom writes

    > Also the unusually high five
    >volts was another fact that suggested defective supply.


    It's only "unusually high" according to you. Not to the ATX spec or to
    people who have far more real-world experience of these things than you.

    Again, a case of you making assertions without the factual evidence to
    back them up - something you are very quick to accuse others of.

    And your use of top-posting to avoid responding to specific points
    raised by others - while you are happy to use bottom posting when it
    suits you - only serves to demonstrate your profound dishonesty.

    Don't you ever wonder why every time you post you're shot down in flames
    by those who can see straight through your overt disingenuousness and
    dishonesty? Doing so repeatedly - you've done it for many years -
    suggests some form of mental disorder to me. May I suggest you seek
    help from a qualified professional, preferably someone who will be able
    to resist the temptation to beat the **** out of you once they've
    suffered more than ten minutes in your company?

    --
    (\__/)
    (='.'=) This is Bunny. Copy and paste Bunny into your
    (")_(") signature to help him gain world domination.

  12. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Previously Mike Tomlinson wrote:
    > In article <4vtu4cF1dffiqU1@mid.individual.net>, Arno Wagner
    > writes


    >>And wrong. I did not say that.


    > w_tom's standard technique, when cornered, is to start lying and
    > twisting the meaning of previous posts to support his argument.


    Yes, and ignoring anything that exposes his errors, no matter
    how clear and concrete. I had forgotten that we have seen this
    guy here before. I think I even got into an argument with him
    last time...

    By now I think that "I have been involved at the design level"
    is either a complete lie or he was the lab assistand doing the
    measurements, but none of the interpretation or decisions.

    Thanks for the remainder.

    Arno

  13. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    w_tom wrote
    > Mike Tomlinson wrote


    >> w_tom's standard technique, when cornered, is to start lying and
    >> twisting the meaning of previous posts to support his argument.


    > But again, same facts are reposted for the many that did not grasp details.


    And there you go again, doing precisely what he said you do.

    > Mike - did you bother to read the entire quote before
    > falling for sound byte reasoning posted by Arno?


    Not necessary, even just the mindless pig ignorant drivel about
    what the rail voltages should read when read with a multimeter
    proves to anyone with a clue that you dont actually have a ****ing
    clue about what the measurement of power supplys is about.

    > Did you ever do power supply designing before claiming superior experience?


    Dont need any of that to see that your claims are pure drivel.

    > Let's teach you what you should have known before posting.


    You can repeat this drivel till the cows come home, changes nothing.

    > A meter measuring 11.65 is probably measuring a
    > voltage that repeatedly drops down below 11.4 volts.


    You dont know that. ALL you know is that the average reading is 11.65.

    AND you plucked those numbers you claimed should be read out
    of your arse and have mindlessly pig ignorantly added the allowed
    ripple to the minimum rail voltages the ATX standard allows, with
    the exception of the 12V rail where you didnt even notice that its
    allowed a margin of 10% as maximum load on that rail.

    All the rest of your stupid pig ignorant repetetive drivel flushed where it belongs.



  14. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Previously McSpreader wrote:
    > "w_tom" wrote in
    > news:1167526221.047744.316200@a3g2000cwd.googlegro ups.com:


    >> Meter numbers suggest a power supply that cannot provide
    >> sufficient power on 12 volts and may also have excessive ripple

    > voltage.


    > How did you deduce potential 'excessive ripple' from a single DC
    > voltmeter reading?


    That is what everybody else is wondering too.

    Arno

  15. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Arno Wagner writes:
    > Just a note for all others here: A complete and detailed explanation
    > why w_tom does not have a clue (despite sounding to some like he has)


    Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would still
    look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to diagnose this
    problem.

  16. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Paul Rubin wrote in
    news:7xzm8vwgvu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com:

    > Arno Wagner writes:
    >> Just a note for all others here: A complete and detailed
    >> explanation why w_tom does not have a clue (despite sounding to
    >> some like he has)

    >
    > Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would
    > still look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to
    > diagnose this problem.
    >


    Precisely. If you measure the voltage using a DC voltmeter and get a
    reading outside the spec range, it confirms that the PSU is faulty.
    However, a reading within the spec range doesn't confirm the PSU is
    fault-free, because excessive ripple might be present - which you can
    only check with the aid of other instruments, such as a 'scope.

    w_tom would have us believe one can deduce that a PSU is faulty from
    just one DC voltmeter reading that is within the spec range.

  17. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Previously McSpreader wrote:
    > Paul Rubin wrote in
    > news:7xzm8vwgvu.fsf@ruckus.brouhaha.com:


    >> Arno Wagner writes:
    >>> Just a note for all others here: A complete and detailed
    >>> explanation why w_tom does not have a clue (despite sounding to
    >>> some like he has)

    >>
    >> Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would
    >> still look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to
    >> diagnose this problem.
    >>


    > Precisely. If you measure the voltage using a DC voltmeter and get a
    > reading outside the spec range, it confirms that the PSU is faulty.
    > However, a reading within the spec range doesn't confirm the PSU is
    > fault-free, because excessive ripple might be present - which you can
    > only check with the aid of other instruments, such as a 'scope.


    Exactly.

    > w_tom would have us believe one can deduce that a PSU is faulty from
    > just one DC voltmeter reading that is within the spec range.


    Well, I hope by now nobody is willing to believe that...

    Arno

  18. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Paul Rubin wrote
    > Arno Wagner writes


    >> Just a note for all others here: A complete and detailed explanation
    >> why w_tom does not have a clue (despite sounding to some like he has)


    > Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts.


    He never was persuasive to anyone who understands the basics.

    > I would still look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to diagnose this problem.


    Separate matter entirely to his stupid pig ignorant claim about what the
    rails must read with a 3.5 digit multimeter for the power supply to be good.
    That has always been, and always will be, pure pig ignorant drivel.

    He cant even manage to grasp that the multimeter will measure the
    AVERAGE rail voltage and even if the ripple is out of spec, you wont
    get the readings he proclaimed will indicate a bad power supply.

    He hasnt actually got a ****ing clue about how
    multimeters work, or anything else at all, either.



  19. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Paul Rubin wrote:
    > Eh well, he's gotten less persuasive in later posts. I would still
    > look at that p/s output with a scope if I were trying to diagnose this
    > problem.


    The explanation was intentionally dumbed down for nay-sayers who don't
    even understand a relationship between that higher 5 volts and a
    failing 12 volts; and who only want to argue anyway. As you may have
    noticed, no sense trying to explain, for example, by that 5 volts
    relates to 12 volts. It is too complex. They don't want to understand
    anyway. Shotgunners already consider themselves experts - need not try
    to learn something new.

    Previously explained (and completely misunderstood by shotgunning
    nay-sayers) is an associated increase in ripple voltage that typically
    occurs as an overloaded or failing supply outputs 11.65 volts. A
    trivial but completely unacceptable 300 millivolts ripple means meter
    reads 11.65 volts, as voltage to computer repeatedly drops to 11.35
    volts - failure. More confusing for shotgunners, this same power
    supply would 'work just fine' in another system. Furthermore is how
    power supplies create 5 volts and why that high 5 volts also indicates
    same problem. Do I explain why to them? No. How a meter works -
    simpler stuff - is too complex.

    Completely ignored was a second fact - 5.12 volts. They did not
    understand the significance of that number either. It requires some
    basic electrical knowledge. And finally a last factor - remove two or
    more disk drives and measure that voltage. Just another paragraph they
    ignored so as to argue. Therefore future posts must be dumbed down -
    what you might call less persuasive. I am not being persuasive for
    them. They already have that masters in EE and multiple decades of
    experience.

    How to explain to 'computer experts' who only known how to shotgun?
    Who foolishly assume 11.5 volts on a meter means voltage is above 11.4
    volts? And then say meters could not find this problem? Of course the
    meter did not work for them. They did not learn how electricity works
    and did not learn how meters work. These posts are for the benefit of
    others who would otherwise accept outright lies from shotgunning
    'computer experts'.

    Anything measuring below 11.7 volts is too low. If below 11.7,
    4.87, or 3.23, then a power supply is probably failing. That explains
    all symptoms that the Original Poster was observing. (Notice our
    'computer experts' had no advice for the OP.) That is really all
    'computer experts' need know since they will foolishly recommend
    shotgunning anyway.

    Shotgunning in any industry is how to identify the worst techs who
    also like to argue rather than learn better techniques. A meter
    reading below 3.23, 4.87, or 11.7 means problems - explains
    intermittent failures. Using a scope would be even better. But
    shotgunning computer experts usually don't know how to use a scope.
    The OP is not going to buy a scope to solve his disk drive problem.
    Numbers already from his $20 meter ( and the procedure that follows)
    identified reasons for his disk drive failures. His number - 11.65 -
    says failure. Says voltage is dipping below 11.4. But this is too
    complex for those who only know by shotgunning; who don't use a meter;
    who would never understand how to use a scope..


  20. Re: Help hard drives keep clicking and dying

    Chris Milne schrieb:
    > I have an older PC (2.26 ghz 1gb ram)...here is what happened.
    >
    > I bought a new Seagate 400gb HD...unplugged my 120 and 80 GB Maxtors,
    > plugged in the seagate, installed windows Vista (from msdn), was trying
    > to get my Radeon card to work with windows aero. Shut down pulled out
    > all the pci cards to see if that would help...no help, shut down
    > plugged them back in booted and the drive started clicking, then a
    > screech, i shut down, reboot and the drive was dead. I packaged the
    > new drive up to send back, plugged in the old drives and one of them
    > started clicking...i noticed that drive did not appear in windows, i
    > immediately shut down and im afraid to turn the computer back on. What
    > could be frying my hard drives? I had an external Maxtor USB 300 gb
    > drive die 4 months ago which i presume is unrelated...in my whole life
    > before this ive never had a hard drive go bad.
    >
    > Thanks.
    >
    > Other cards:
    > SB Audigy
    > UAD 1 DSP Processor
    > Firewire card
    > Radeon XT800 (agp)
    > USB 2 (which recently only was working at USB 1.1)
    >


    Maybe we could stop the ranting and return to the OP's problem. Apart
    from "Your PSU'S broken - buy a new one" - which has been intensely
    contested - there has been no useful help so far.

    The deep-tech-wisdom being randomly thrown about (and which ist totally
    beyond me, I'm not ashamed to admit) will very likely not help the OP
    solving the original problem. My guess ist that the replacement PSU is
    already in place anyway and thus this discussion is quite obsolete in
    regard to the OP's query.

    I'm very much avoiding taking sides here since I can't judge the content
    anyway. But the style and tone some posters are using does not match
    their claim for credibility.

    To sum it up - I'm out. Pity, I was actually starting to learn a wee bit
    from some of the posts.

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