On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 19:47:57 -0600, Anonymous wrote:

> In the Sparc version, you can change the MAC address of a NIC card on
> the EPROM by getting down to the OK prompt. How do you do this on he
> x86 version? Thanx for any help.

Never read ifconfig(1M), have you?

On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:39:59 -0600, Dave Uhring wrote:

>Never read ifconfig(1M), have you?

Nope. Nevery have. You wanna clue me in?

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:02:53 -0600, Boll Weevil wrote:

> On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:39:59 -0600, Dave Uhring wrote:
>
>>Never read ifconfig(1M), have you?
>
> Nope. Nevery have. You wanna clue me in?

Nope. Repetition of information already available to you is redundant.
I did point you in the right direction. You can choose to follow it or
not.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:26:53 -0600, Dave Uhring wrote:

>On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 11:02:53 -0600, Boll Weevil wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 14 Dec 2005 22:39:59 -0600, Dave Uhring wrote:
>>
>>>Never read ifconfig(1M), have you?
>>
>> Nope. Nevery have. You wanna clue me in?
>
>Nope. Repetition of information already available to you is redundant.
>I did point you in the right direction. You can choose to follow it or
>not.

Yea.. well no thanx for your non help wasting my time. Do everybody a favor and
stop replying to people's reply in this manner and wasting bandwidth and time.
Your repetitive info is yours and only yours. I'm not here for your guessing
games or for your ego.

On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:55:57 -0600, Boll Weevil wrote:

> Yea.. well no thanx for your non help wasting my time. Do everybody a favor and
> stop replying to people's reply in this manner and wasting bandwidth and time.
> Your repetitive info is yours and only yours. I'm not here for your guessing
> games or for your ego.

Do you have some mental impediment to reading a man page?

# man ifconfig

There is a perfect example of what you want to do.

Dave Uhring schrieb/wrote:

> On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:55:57 -0600, Boll Weevil wrote:
>
>> Yea.. well no thanx for your non help wasting my time. Do everybody a favor and
>> stop replying to people's reply in this manner and wasting bandwidth and time.
>> Your repetitive info is yours and only yours. I'm not here for your guessing
>> games or for your ego.
>
> Do you have some mental impediment to reading a man page?
>
> # man ifconfig
>
> There is a perfect example of what you want to do.

I would recommend Boll reading "man man" at first in order to get an
impression on what man pages are...

Regards,
Christian
--
Christian Schmidt | Germany | ChriSchmiLi@gmx.de
No HTML Mails, please!!
De eene hett 'n Rittergut, de annere ritt 'n Gitter rut.

Christian Schmidt wrote:
>
> Dave Uhring schrieb/wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 16 Dec 2005 14:55:57 -0600, Boll Weevil wrote:
> >
> >> Yea.. well no thanx for your non help wasting my time. Do everybody a favor and
> >> stop replying to people's reply in this manner and wasting bandwidth and time.
> >> Your repetitive info is yours and only yours. I'm not here for your guessing
> >> games or for your ego.
> >
> > Do you have some mental impediment to reading a man page?
> >
> > # man ifconfig
> >
> > There is a perfect example of what you want to do.
>
> I would recommend Boll reading "man man" at first in order to get an
> impression on what man pages are...

....or perhaps just a mention that in the UN*X world, "help" is obtained
not through the obvious and intuitive HELP command, but rather by
reading "man[ual]" pages using the "man"[ual] command, and that the
on-line "man"[ual] is organized into numbered sections, some of which
have subsections identified by letters appended to the section number,
as in "ifconfig(1M)".

Maybe just better phrasing would be useful. For example, in response to
"Anonymous"'s original query, perhaps a more helpful response would have
been:

"Have a look at 'man ifconfig'. There's an example in there you may find
useful."

Just a suggestion...

--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:53:27 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:

> ...or perhaps just a mention that in the UN*X world, "help" is obtained
> not through the obvious and intuitive HELP command,

There is nothing either obvious or intuitive about "HELP". You may have
it available on your Windows system but that makes it neither obvious nor
intuitive. Some of us do not use Windows.

> Maybe just better phrasing would be useful. For example, in response to
> "Anonymous"'s original query, perhaps a more helpful response would have
> been:
>
> "Have a look at 'man ifconfig'. There's an example in there you may find
> useful."

The OP claimed a certain amount of expertise WRT Sun machines although his
"knowledge" is sorely lacking [1]. Pointing the OP to ifconfig(1M) was
entirely appropriate.

[1] One can use the OBP to *enable* changing the ethernet addresses by
setting "local-mac-address?" to true. The OBP, however, is not used to
actually change those addresses. Moreover, one can effect the same change
by using the eeprom(1M) utility within Solaris. It is not necessary to
drop to the ok prompt.

Dave Uhring wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:53:27 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:
>
> > ...or perhaps just a mention that in the UN*X world, "help" is obtained
> > not through the obvious and intuitive HELP command,
>
> There is nothing either obvious or intuitive about "HELP".

I'm not here to start a "religious war", I'm interested in suggestions
to improve the user interface. Do elaborate. When one is seeking
assistance, what would be more intuitive than to simply ask the machine
for HELP? ...more obvious?

What, IYO, would be the most intuitive assistance command? ...the most
obvious?

Example:

DJAS01:DACHTERA$ help

HELP

The HELP command invokes the HELP Facility to display
information about a command or topic. In response to the "Topic?"
prompt, you can:

o Type the name of the command or topic for which you need help
..

o Type INSTRUCTIONS for more detailed instructions on how to us
e
HELP.

o Type HINTS if you are not sure of the name of the command o
r
topic for which you need help.

o Type HELP/MESSAGE for help with the HELP/MESSAGE command.

o Type a question mark (?) to redisplay the most recently requeste
d
text.

o Press the Return key one or more times to exit from HELP.

You can abbreviate any topic name, although ambiguous abbreviation
s
result in all matches being displayed.


Additional information available:

:= = @ ACCOUNTING ALLOCATE ANALYZE
APPEND ASSIGN ATTACH AUTHORIZE AUTOGEN BACKUP
CALL CANCEL CC CLOSE CONFIGURE CONNECT
CONTINUE CONVERT COPY CREATE CXXDEMANGLE
DCL_Tips DEALLOCATE DEASSIGN DEBUG DECK DECthreads
DEFINE DELETE DEPOSIT DIAGNOSE DIFFERENCES
DIRECTORY DISABLE DISCONNECT DISMOUNT DPML DSR
DUMP EDIT ENABLE ENDSUBROUTINE EOD
EOJ Errors EXAMINE EXCHANGE EXIT
Ext_File_Specs FDL FONT GENCAT GOSUB
GOTO HELP Hints ICONV IF INITIALIZE
INQUIRE INSTALL Instructions JAVA JOB
LANCP LATCP LD Lexicals LIBRARY LICENSE
Line_editing LINK LMCP LOCALE LOGIN
LOGOUT MACRO MAIL MERGE MESSAGE MIME
MONITOR MOUNT NCP NCS ON OPEN
PASSWORD PATCH PHONE PIPE POLYCENTER PPPD
PRINT PRODUCT PSWRAP PURGE Queues READ
RECALL RECOVER RENAME REPLY REQUEST RETURN
RMS RPC RTL_Routines RUN RUNOFF
SEARCH SET SHOW SORT SPAWN START
STOP SUBMIT SUBROUTINE Symbol_Assign SYNCHRONIZE
SYSGEN SYSMAN System_Services Sys_Files
Sys_Parameters TFF TYPE UNLOCK UNZIP
UNZIPSFX V72_Features VIEW WAIT WRITE

Additional help libraries available (type @name for topics):

MULTINET

Topic?


--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:48:39 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:

> Dave Uhring wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:53:27 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:
>>
>> > ...or perhaps just a mention that in the UN*X world, "help" is obtained
>> > not through the obvious and intuitive HELP command,
>>
>> There is nothing either obvious or intuitive about "HELP".
>
> I'm not here to start a "religious war", I'm interested in suggestions
> to improve the user interface. Do elaborate. When one is seeking
> assistance, what would be more intuitive than to simply ask the machine
> for HELP? ...more obvious?
>
> What, IYO, would be the most intuitive assistance command? ...the most
> obvious?

On a Solaris system, provided that one has previously executed
`catman -w` to generate the appropriate windex files:

$ man -k

There is *nothing* which is either obvious or intuitive about any
operating system, including the click and drool interface of Windows. One
must learn how to use one's tools. And you don't do that by using

X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)

in order to learn how to use Solaris.

On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:48:39 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:

> := = @ ACCOUNTING ALLOCATE ANALYZE
> APPEND ASSIGN ATTACH AUTHORIZE AUTOGEN BACKUP
> CALL CANCEL CC CLOSE CONFIGURE CONNECT
> CONTINUE CONVERT COPY CREATE CXXDEMANGLE
> DCL_Tips DEALLOCATE DEASSIGN DEBUG DECK DECthreads
> DEFINE DELETE DEPOSIT DIAGNOSE DIFFERENCES
> DIRECTORY DISABLE DISCONNECT DISMOUNT DPML DSR
> DUMP EDIT ENABLE ENDSUBROUTINE EOD
> EOJ Errors EXAMINE EXCHANGE EXIT
> Ext_File_Specs FDL FONT GENCAT GOSUB
> GOTO HELP Hints ICONV IF INITIALIZE
> INQUIRE INSTALL Instructions JAVA JOB
> LANCP LATCP LD Lexicals LIBRARY LICENSE
> Line_editing LINK LMCP LOCALE LOGIN
> LOGOUT MACRO MAIL MERGE MESSAGE MIME
> MONITOR MOUNT NCP NCS ON OPEN
> PASSWORD PATCH PHONE PIPE POLYCENTER PPPD
> PRINT PRODUCT PSWRAP PURGE Queues READ
> RECALL RECOVER RENAME REPLY REQUEST RETURN
> RMS RPC RTL_Routines RUN RUNOFF
> SEARCH SET SHOW SORT SPAWN START
> STOP SUBMIT SUBROUTINE Symbol_Assign SYNCHRONIZE
> SYSGEN SYSMAN System_Services Sys_Files
> Sys_Parameters TFF TYPE UNLOCK UNZIP
> UNZIPSFX V72_Features VIEW WAIT WRITE

BTW, out of that garbage which command and arguments will display the
routing table? Which one will display my current IP address? Which of
these will display the ARP table?

And more to the point, which of these things will enable me to alter my
NIC's ethernet address?

Dave Uhring wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:48:39 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:
>
> > := = @ ACCOUNTING ALLOCATE ANALYZE
> > APPEND ASSIGN ATTACH AUTHORIZE AUTOGEN BACKUP
> > CALL CANCEL CC CLOSE CONFIGURE CONNECT
> > CONTINUE CONVERT COPY CREATE CXXDEMANGLE
> > DCL_Tips DEALLOCATE DEASSIGN DEBUG DECK DECthreads
> > DEFINE DELETE DEPOSIT DIAGNOSE DIFFERENCES
> > DIRECTORY DISABLE DISCONNECT DISMOUNT DPML DSR
> > DUMP EDIT ENABLE ENDSUBROUTINE EOD
> > EOJ Errors EXAMINE EXCHANGE EXIT
> > Ext_File_Specs FDL FONT GENCAT GOSUB
> > GOTO HELP Hints ICONV IF INITIALIZE
> > INQUIRE INSTALL Instructions JAVA JOB
> > LANCP LATCP LD Lexicals LIBRARY LICENSE
> > Line_editing LINK LMCP LOCALE LOGIN
> > LOGOUT MACRO MAIL MERGE MESSAGE MIME
> > MONITOR MOUNT NCP NCS ON OPEN
> > PASSWORD PATCH PHONE PIPE POLYCENTER PPPD
> > PRINT PRODUCT PSWRAP PURGE Queues READ
> > RECALL RECOVER RENAME REPLY REQUEST RETURN
> > RMS RPC RTL_Routines RUN RUNOFF
> > SEARCH SET SHOW SORT SPAWN START
> > STOP SUBMIT SUBROUTINE Symbol_Assign SYNCHRONIZE
> > SYSGEN SYSMAN System_Services Sys_Files
> > Sys_Parameters TFF TYPE UNLOCK UNZIP
> > UNZIPSFX V72_Features VIEW WAIT WRITE
>
> BTW, out of that garbage which command and arguments will display the
> routing table? Which one will display my current IP address? Which of
> these will display the ARP table?

The answer to all three questions depends on which TCP/IP stack you're
running. There are three for OpenVMS:

o TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS, previously known as "Ultrix Connection",
or "UCX" for short, sold by Digital, then Compaq, and now by HP. It
comes bundled with the o/s license. Available for VAX, Alpha and I64.

o Multinet sold by Process Software. Originally ported from 4.2BSD by
"Two Guys and a VAX" (TGV, Inc.). Available for VAX, Alpha and I64.

o TCPware, also sold by Process Software. Written largely in assembler
from the ground up on PDP-11 and later migrated to VAX/VMS, then to
OpenVMS-Alpha, and now to OpenVMS-I64 (for the Itanic).

> And more to the point, which of these things will enable me to alter my
> NIC's ethernet address?

Because VMS is designed around security from the ground up, there are no
commands in any facility to do this, although it is possible by coding a
program to do low-level I/O by calling the (SYS)$QIO system service.
Programs to do this have been ported from UN*X-land. Also, DECnet
Phase-IV does this as an artifact of behavior built into it in the early
days of "802.3" ethernet (The two-byte DECnet address is coded into the
MAC address in the LSBs, with a "Vendor code" of AA-00-04).

--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page

Dave Uhring wrote:
>
> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 21:48:39 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:
>
> > Dave Uhring wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 18 Dec 2005 11:53:27 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:
> >>
> >> > ...or perhaps just a mention that in the UN*X world, "help" is obtained
> >> > not through the obvious and intuitive HELP command,
> >>
> >> There is nothing either obvious or intuitive about "HELP".
> >
> > I'm not here to start a "religious war", I'm interested in suggestions
> > to improve the user interface. Do elaborate. When one is seeking
> > assistance, what would be more intuitive than to simply ask the machine
> > for HELP? ...more obvious?
> >
> > What, IYO, would be the most intuitive assistance command? ...the most
> > obvious?
>
> On a Solaris system, provided that one has previously executed
> `catman -w` to generate the appropriate windex files:
>
> $ man -k
>
> There is *nothing* which is either obvious or intuitive about any
> operating system, including the click and drool interface of Windows. One
> must learn how to use one's tools. And you don't do that by using
>
> X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.77 [en] (Windows NT 5.0; U)
>
> in order to learn how to use Solaris.

I don't currently run Solaris at home. The only Solaris machine I deal
with on a daily basis runs StorageTek's ACSLS which drives the robot in
the tape library we have at work. Among other tasks, I had to set up the
trusted relationships enabling us to use RSHELL and RCP from the VMS
systems to Solaris without having passwords traverse the Enterprise LAN
in clear-text.

I have no need to modify the MAC address of the SPARC machine's NIC. As
a result, I've never looked into that.

I'd considered building a business around servers running Solaris, BSD,
Linux and OpenVMS. Still looking for funding. Also, the OpenVMS business
at HP is built around a low-volume, high margin paradigm with
astronomical annual sales targets. So, that part of the business would
be less competitive than the "commodity" server parts.

--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:25:24 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:

> I don't currently run Solaris at home. The only Solaris machine I deal
> with on a daily basis runs StorageTek's ACSLS which drives the robot in
> the tape library we have at work. Among other tasks, I had to set up the
> trusted relationships enabling us to use RSHELL and RCP from the VMS
> systems to Solaris without having passwords traverse the Enterprise LAN
> in clear-text.

On Solaris, hosts.equiv(4) provides the necessary information. Use of SSH
is preferable since *all* IP traffic is encrypted.

> I have no need to modify the MAC address of the SPARC machine's NIC. As
> a result, I've never looked into that.

Nor have I had such a need, especially on a PeeCee where ethernet
addresses are almost guaranteed to be unique. By default, on an
UltraSPARC machine with 3 or 5 NICs all will receive the same ethernet
addresses. Normally this causes no problem since each is assumed to be
connected to a separate subnet.

> I'd considered building a business around servers running Solaris, BSD,
> Linux and OpenVMS. Still looking for funding. Also, the OpenVMS business
> at HP is built around a low-volume, high margin paradigm with
> astronomical annual sales targets. So, that part of the business would
> be less competitive than the "commodity" server parts.

It might be less competitive but its long term viability is questionable.
HP has killed PA-RISC and Alpha, and the prospects for continued
development of Itanium don't look too good.

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:17:47 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:

> Dave Uhring wrote:

>> And more to the point, which of these things will enable me to alter my
>> NIC's ethernet address?
>
> Because VMS is designed around security from the ground up, there are no
> commands in any facility to do this, although it is possible by coding a
> program to do low-level I/O by calling the (SYS)$QIO system service.
> Programs to do this have been ported from UN*X-land. Also, DECnet
> Phase-IV does this as an artifact of behavior built into it in the early
> days of "802.3" ethernet (The two-byte DECnet address is coded into the
> MAC address in the LSBs, with a "Vendor code" of AA-00-04).

IOW, and directly contradicting your earlier assertion, there is *no*
obvious or intuitive way to find out how to change one's ethernet address
on an OpenVMS system.

Dave Uhring wrote:
>
> On Tue, 20 Dec 2005 20:17:47 -0600, David J Dachtera wrote:
>
> > Dave Uhring wrote:
>
> >> And more to the point, which of these things will enable me to alter my
> >> NIC's ethernet address?
> >
> > Because VMS is designed around security from the ground up, there are no
> > commands in any facility to do this, although it is possible by coding a
> > program to do low-level I/O by calling the (SYS)$QIO system service.
> > Programs to do this have been ported from UN*X-land. Also, DECnet
> > Phase-IV does this as an artifact of behavior built into it in the early
> > days of "802.3" ethernet (The two-byte DECnet address is coded into the
> > MAC address in the LSBs, with a "Vendor code" of AA-00-04).
>
> IOW, and directly contradicting your earlier assertion,

I made no relevant assertion.

> there is *no*
> obvious or intuitive way to find out how to change one's ethernet address
> on an OpenVMS system.

Not sure how "intuitive" it is, but the obvious way to find out is to
RTFM, likely the I/O User's Guide. Like most machines, Itanics, Alphas
and most large VAXes (BI-bus machines like 6000, 7000 and 10000) can
have multiple ethernet interface cards.

--
David J Dachtera
dba DJE Systems
http://www.djesys.com/

Unofficial OpenVMS Hobbyist Support Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/support/

Unofficial Affordable OpenVMS Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/soho/

Unofficial OpenVMS-IA32 Home Page:
http://www.djesys.com/vms/ia32/

Coming soon:
Unofficial OpenVMS Marketing Home Page