-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Yeap, that's right. Work has begun on a new Slackware Book to replace
Slackware Linux Essentials 2nd Edition. Very little details have been
released just yet. The new book is a complete rewrite from scratch with
nothing[0]. A license has not yet been determined. Likely the book
will be released under the GNU FDL or a BSD license, but Creative
Commons licenses have not been ruled out entirely yet.[1] Any major
updates will be announced here as well as on the book's website.

http://www.slackbook.org/

[0] Well, not quite nothing. I've discussed including at least one
chapter with simple updates with the author of those pieces due to the
new license.
[1] Honestly I haven't really looked into Creative Commons licenses as
the FDL or BSD license are well-known and seem to fit my needs well
enough.

- --
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAki0nlMACgkQrZS6hX/gvjpF2ACgkdRW7wMZkC8V5SSxeGFAZFja
itEAoI8/5QaLjRWtivIK3edAazotSDKU
=vpK2
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

+Alan Hicks+ trolled:

[pgp trash troll delete]

> Yeap, that's right. Work has begun on a new Slackware Book to
> replace Slackware Linux Essentials 2nd Edition. Very little
> details have been released just yet.

The last one has an excellent section on printing. Will the new
book's section on printing be just as good?

> The new book is a complete rewrite from scratch with nothing[0].
> A license has not yet been determined. Likely the book will be
> released under the GNU FDL or a BSD license, but Creative Commons
> licenses have not been ruled out entirely yet.[1] Any major
> updates will be announced here as well as on the book's website.

Double or single-ply? How many sheets to the roll?


cordially, even to hillbillies,

rm

+Alan Hicks+ wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Yeap, that's right. Work has begun on a new Slackware Book to replace
> Slackware Linux Essentials 2nd Edition. Very little details have been
> released just yet. The new book is a complete rewrite from scratch with
> nothing[0]. A license has not yet been determined. Likely the book
> will be released under the GNU FDL or a BSD license, but Creative
> Commons licenses have not been ruled out entirely yet.[1] Any major
> updates will be announced here as well as on the book's website.
>
> http://www.slackbook.org/
>
> [0] Well, not quite nothing. I've discussed including at least one
> chapter with simple updates with the author of those pieces due to the
> new license.
> [1] Honestly I haven't really looked into Creative Commons licenses as
> the FDL or BSD license are well-known and seem to fit my needs well
> enough.
>

Just my luck, I finally get around to ordering book 2 and now 3 is on
the way. I'm thinkin conspiracy here...*puts on tinfoil hat*
MikeinAK

+Alan Hicks+ writes:

> Yeap, that's right. Work has begun on a new Slackware Book to replace
> Slackware Linux Essentials 2nd Edition. Very little details have been
> released just yet. The new book is a complete rewrite from scratch with
> nothing[0].

Really good news :-)

atb


Glyn
--
RTFM http://www.tldp.org/index.html
GAFC http://slackbook.org/ The Official Source :-)
STFW http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...inux.slackware
JFGI http://jfgi.us/

Glyn Millington wrote:
> Alan Hicks writes:
>> Yeap, that's right. Work has begun on a new Slackware Book to replace
>> Slackware Linux Essentials 2nd Edition. Very little details have been
>> released just yet. The new book is a complete rewrite from scratch with
>> nothing[0]. Any major updates will be announced here as well as on the
>> book's website http://www.slackbook.org/
>
> Really good news :-)

Ditto. Could I add a suggestion/request?...
Less general Unix info, e.g., chaps 16,17 about vi,emacs,
and much more info about Slackware-specific stuff, e.g., the
scripts in /etc/rc.d I've had to modify those to accommodate
stuff like http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ (decnet
for linux), with no "official" information (besides comments in
the scripts, which are occasionally out-of-date, or out-of-sync,
with the actual code). Similarly, there's lots more /etc stuff
tailored for Slackware that's not documented in the book, and
for which an authoritative reference would be very valuable (for
me, anyway).
If you still want to write the non-Slackware-specific stuff
in chaps 8-17 (and scattered elsewheres), then that's great.
But make it a separate publication. I'd really like a book
dedicated to Slackware installation and configuration info,
without having to dig through a much larger book (containing
lots of general Unix info) to find what I'm looking for,
and then to sometimes not find it at all.
Meanwhile, thanks for all the great work.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

On 2008-08-27, wrote:
>
>
> cordially, even to hillbillies,
>
> rm

ESADA

On 2008-08-27, JohnF wrote:
> Less general Unix info, e.g., chaps 16,17 about vi,emacs,
> and much more info about Slackware-specific stuff, e.g., the
> scripts in /etc/rc.d I've had to modify those to accommodate
> stuff like http://linux-decnet.wiki.sourceforge.net/ (decnet
> for linux), with no "official" information (besides comments in
> the scripts, which are occasionally out-of-date, or out-of-sync,
> with the actual code). Similarly, there's lots more /etc stuff
> tailored for Slackware that's not documented in the book, and
> for which an authoritative reference would be very valuable (for
> me, anyway).
> If you still want to write the non-Slackware-specific stuff
> in chaps 8-17 (and scattered elsewheres), then that's great.
> But make it a separate publication. I'd really like a book
> dedicated to Slackware installation and configuration info,
> without having to dig through a much larger book (containing
> lots of general Unix info) to find what I'm looking for,
> and then to sometimes not find it at all.

If I may, the point of The Book is to be one book for a relative
beginner to get started with Slackware. So it pretty much needs to
cover the non-Slackware specific parts of linux/UNIX or a newbie would
be pretty lost.

The book itself could be divided into "Slackware" and "Linux", though
that may not be an easy division to make.

Can you give specific examples of stuff in /etc that is tailored to
Slackware? From what I know of /etc it's pretty much *not* tailored to
Slackware; it's other distros that muck about with what files go where
in /etc. Okay, it's true that /etc/slackware-version is pretty
Slackware-specific.

--keith

--
kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
(try just my userid to email me)
AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
see X- headers for PGP signature information

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 11:45:58 -0700, Keith Keller wrote:

> Can you give specific examples of stuff in /etc that is tailored to
> Slackware? From what I know of /etc it's pretty much *not* tailored to
> Slackware; it's other distros that muck about with what files go where
> in /etc.

Pretty much everything wireless-related is eccentr^H^H^H^H^H^H^H
characteristically Slackware. This will be hard to make clear in the
book because it isn't clear in /etc, and there are normally several
choices for where one can alter a given parameter.

I love Slackware but trying to solve wireless issues is almost always
more trouble than laying a run of Cat5....

> Okay, it's true that /etc/slackware-version is pretty
> Slackware-specific.

LOL. There are occasional other distros that pop up Slackware-specific
bits too, normally those that claim to have been built from scratch by
the creator.

Keith Keller wrote:

> Can you give specific examples of stuff in /etc that is tailored to
> Slackware?

The contents of /etc/rc.d are pretty Slackware-specific.

Let's see ... other files in /etc whose contents are in some way
specific to Slackware (despite that in some cases the files themselves,
or their locations aren't):

/etc/ld.so.conf
/etc/profile.d/coreutils-dircolors.csh
/etc/profile.d/coreutils-dircolors.sh
/etc/X11/xdm/Xsession
/etc/udev/rules.d/40-slackware.rules
/etc/udev/rules.d/65-permissions.rules
/etc/dialogrc
/etc/mail/sendmail.cf
/etc/inittab

Some of those might be a bit of a stretch ... Whether all this amounts
to a book is, of course, another question entirely.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

On 2008-08-27, Keith Keller wrote:
> If I may, the point of The Book is to be one book for a relative
> beginner to get started with Slackware. So it pretty much needs to
> cover the non-Slackware specific parts of linux/UNIX or a newbie would
> be pretty lost.

Keith's hit the nail on the head here. The book must be of use not
only to people new to Slackware, but to people new to Linux (and maybe
even new to computers all together). Leaving out things like vi and
emacs[0] would make the book very useless to them. "Open your text
editor." "What the hell's a text editor?"

> The book itself could be divided into "Slackware" and "Linux", though
> that may not be an easy division to make.

It's not. The book is being organized not to differentiate between
what's Slackware and what's generic, but rather to begin with what a
newbie most likely needs to know and work up to harder concepts.
Basically after the prelude we get to the installer, then booting (I
have no idea how many newbies messed up dual-boot stuff with the old
book, but I suspect it's a lot), basic shell stuff and bash, then onto
X, and printing. This should be all the newbie needs to know to get
his hardware setup correctly.[1] From there we go into basic sysadmin
stuff like managing users and groups, filesystem permissions, mounting,
vi, emacs, etc. Some of this will be touched on earlier in a simpler
manner of course, with references to these chapters.

After that we'll discuss networking (including wireless) and basic
networking commands. We round it out with pkgtool, keeping up with
- -stable, and compiling a kernel (as well as when to do so and when NOT
to do so). Somewhere in here I need to discuss using the generic
kernel and mkinitrd. I considered putting that in the Installation
chapter, or perhaps Booting, but felt that would be too intimidating to
a new user.

[0] Ok yeah, real Slackers don't use emacs. ;^)
[1] Mental note: Add chapter for help and something on audio. If
anyone could give me an idea of where to work in alsa* I would
appreciate it. I suppose it might best fit with a multimedia chapter,
but I don't have anything planned there.

- --
It is better to hear the rebuke of the wise,
Than for a man to hear the song of fools.
Ecclesiastes 7:5
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAki1uWMACgkQrZS6hX/gvjr7cwCgml5WjHzTewKr0cY1lbk2vTcr
KkYAnj7yM3GJQq0G1XLUpiLas38DSRqD
=nGFM
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

+Alan Hicks+ wrote:

> The book must be of use not only to people new to Slackware, but to
> people new to Linux (and maybe even new to computers all together).
> Leaving out things like vi and emacs[0] would make the book very
> useless to them. ...

There are so many good sources of information out there for Unix/Linux
beginners that aren't specific to any Linux distribution (indeed some
aren't specific even to Linux), that it seems difficult to imagine
pointing someone to the Slackware book first. If they're that new,
chances are they're dealing with a system that has already been
installed for them, and needing now only to learn how to use it. Do you
honestly believe your book can compete with Harley Hahn's (for example)?

> ... The book is being organized not to differentiate between what's
> Slackware and what's generic, but rather to begin with what a newbie
> most likely needs to know and work up to harder concepts. Basically
> after the prelude we get to the installer, then booting (I have no
> idea how many newbies messed up dual-boot stuff with the old book, but
> I suspect it's a lot), basic shell stuff and bash, then onto X, and
> printing.

.... and it will distinguish itself from Matt Welsh's book how?

Don't get me wrong. It isn't that I don't appreciate that you're
intending to create something that will be useful to others, but I
honestly wonder about the need for it.

I realize that Matt Welsh's book has become very non-Slackware specific,
but it appears to still be a very complete, very informational book. I
think the first Linux-specific book I owned (and still own) was his book
(second edition, if memory serves; I'll have to check when I'm home),
and that book got me from only knowing a little about Linux to setting
up a system with it to using it exclusively.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------

On 2008-08-27, +Alan Hicks+ wrote:

> Yeap, that's right. Work has begun on a new Slackware Book to replace
> Slackware Linux Essentials 2nd Edition. Very little details have been
> released just yet.

Great news. I printed the book off and kept it close in my first foray
through slackware. I shall make a point of _buying_ the new edition when
it come out.

Andrew

--
http://www.andrews-corner.org

Keith Keller wrote:

>> I realize that Matt Welsh's book has become very non-Slackware
>> specific, but it appears to still be a very complete, very
>> informational book.
>
> FWIW I haven't liked recent additions of Welsh's book. I wish I could
> explain why, but I really can't put my finger on it.

I suspect (ok, I admit that I'm projecting my own reaction onto you) that
it's the change from a mostly Slackware-oriented book to one that barely
acknowledges Slackware. (does it still at least acknowledge Slackware?)

That aside, my point about the book's completeness and usefulness remains,
I think. It's still a "good" book, though perhaps it feels more aimed
at users of ... well not Slackware users. That may be simply that you
know enough about your system not to need that book, though.

Oh, and since I'm home now, the one I have is the November 1995 "minor
corrections" printing, so still officially the first edition.

I'm skimming through the first couple of chapters now, and in fact it
wasn't really all that Slackware-specific after all. It did use
Slackware in some examples, but not to the exclusion of other options
available at the time. Notable is the sample inittab file they examine,
which is clearly from a Slackware system.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------

Sylvain Robitaille writes:

> +Alan Hicks+ wrote:
>
>> The book must be of use not only to people new to Slackware, but to
>> people new to Linux (and maybe even new to computers all together).
>> Leaving out things like vi and emacs[0] would make the book very
>> useless to them. ...
>
> There are so many good sources of information out there for Unix/Linux
> beginners that aren't specific to any Linux distribution (indeed some
> aren't specific even to Linux), that it seems difficult to imagine
> pointing someone to the Slackware book first.


But that is what the Slackware site does, is it not?

There is a *vast* amount of stuff out on the web and also in books, and
*some* of it is good stuff. The problem for the newcomer is to work out
which are the good and useful sites and books and in the meanwhile to get
on with life :-) and using the machine/s in front of them. For the real
Linux newbie a basic guide to the system they have just installed is a
real help - it was for me. Nowadays, so long as I can get the network
up, I know how to find the information I need (post to a.o.l.s, right?)
- but ten years ago that wasn't the case.

atb



Glyn
--
RTFM http://www.tldp.org/index.html
GAFC http://slackbook.org/ The Official Source :-)
STFW http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=e...inux.slackware
JFGI http://jfgi.us/

Sylvain Robitaille wrote:
> Alan Hicks wrote:
>> The book must be of use not only to people new to Slackware, but to
>> people new to Linux (and maybe even new to computers all together).
>> Leaving out things like vi and emacs[0] would make the book very
>> useless to them. ...
>
> There are so many good sources of information out there for Unix/Linux
> beginners that aren't specific to any Linux distribution (indeed some
> aren't specific even to Linux), that it seems difficult to imagine
> pointing someone to the Slackware book first.

Yes, that's basically my thought, too. Although I purchased both
editions of Slackware Linux Essentials, and they remain within
easy reach, it's never occurred to me to look at them for answers
to the occasional vi question. Ditto for shell questions, etc.
But they're the first place I look for pkgtool questions, etc.

> If they're that new,
> chances are they're dealing with a system that has already been
> installed for them, and needing now only to learn how to use it.

Hasn't the "new linux user" market been taken over by Ubuntu (and
similar distributions)? The latest (rather than earliest)
professionally published Slackware book I have is Sams' Slackware
Linux Unleashed from 2000 (are there any more recent ones?).
Nowadays, bookstores carry zero Slackware books, whereas there
are about half a dozen Ubuntu books on Barnes&Noble's shelves
(far and away the greatest number for any specific distribution).

> Do you honestly believe your book can compete with Harley Hahn's
> (for example)?

Apparently so. Or perhaps he's trying to develop such a book
through several evolving editions of this one. That'd be my
guess, but maybe he'll follow up with the real scoop on that.

>> ... The book is being organized not to differentiate between what's
>> Slackware and what's generic, but rather to begin with what a newbie
>> most likely needs to know and work up to harder concepts. Basically
>> after the prelude we get to the installer, then booting (I have no
>> idea how many newbies messed up dual-boot stuff with the old book, but
>> I suspect it's a lot), basic shell stuff and bash, then onto X, and
>> printing.

But, Alan, it sounds like you're still trying to capture the
attention of new linux/unix users by making Slackware more
accessible to them between the pages of a single, relatively
short book. As mentioned above, hasn't that battle already
been lost to Ubuntu, etc? Wouldn't it be wiser trying to
capture the attention of somewhat more mature linux/unix users,
explaining why/how their needs would be better served by migrating
to Slackware? And it would also be nice to have a book that
serves the needs of the installed Slackware base.
--
John Forkosh ( mailto: j@f.com where j=john and f=forkosh )

On Wed, 27 Aug 2008 22:29:18 +0000, Sylvain Robitaille wrote:

> +Alan Hicks+ wrote:
>
>> The book must be of use not only to people new to Slackware, but to
>> people new to Linux (and maybe even new to computers all together).
>> Leaving out things like vi and emacs[0] would make the book very
>> useless to them. ...
>
> There are so many good sources of information out there for Unix/Linux
> beginners that aren't specific to any Linux distribution (indeed some
> aren't specific even to Linux), that it seems difficult to imagine
> pointing someone to the Slackware book first. If they're that new,
> chances are they're dealing with a system that has already been
> installed for them, and needing now only to learn how to use it.

When I first started with Linux, I started with Slackware. As a beginner,
I was lost with the couple of big generic Linux books that I had, while
with the Slackware book (first edition) was much easier for me to get a
basic idea of Bash and the command line. I found the Slackware book very
valuable

Yes, only a small number of people will start using Linux with Slackware
as their first distribution, but I think those are valuable people. I
agree with Alan, it is worth catering to the newbys.

Mike

Mike Denhoff wrote:

> When I first started with Linux, I started with Slackware. As a
> beginner, I was lost with the couple of big generic Linux books that I
> had, ...

Please review what I wrote that you responded to. I realize that there
are (and have been) a much greater number of not-so-good books out there
than there have been good ones. I would readily suggest that the
"couple of big generic Linux books" you had weren't any of the good
ones. That doesn't mean that there aren't good books out there, or that
those that are good aren't only good enough but some are rather
excellent.

For someone just starting with Linux, on an already installed system
(ie. either someone else installed it for them, or they're using something
like Ubuntu or similar "boot the CD and click on install" installations),
and wanting to learn to use it at a "user" level, I still don't hesitate
to point to Harley Hahn's books. They're not Linux-specific, but they're
worth their weight in gold.

If someone is getting into system administration, the Nemeth and Frisch
books are much better to turn to at that level than something that is
specific to Slackware. The value of a book about Slackware essentials
would (should?) be in its coverage of Slackware-specific essential
material. Anything beyond that and the quality of books that it needs
to compete with is quite high. That it already is better than other,
mediocre (and a lot of them are, at best), general Linux books isn't
particularly interesting (to me, at least).

> while with the Slackware book (first edition) was much easier for me
> to get a basic idea of Bash and the command line. I found the
> Slackware book very valuable

Is that because the other books you had were less good, or because you
didn't know there might be even better books out there?

> Yes, only a small number of people will start using Linux with
> Slackware as their first distribution, but I think those are valuable
> people.

My point is that those people are (probably?) better served by less
Slackware-specific books that are better known, but that the Slackware
essentials book might better serve its community if instead of trying to
be Yet Another General Linux/Unix Book, it really did focus on elements
that are specific to Slackware. I did also suggest in an earlier
posting that I'm not sure there's a book's worth of Slackware-specific
material, but that's slightly tangential to this discussion.

> I agree with Alan, it is worth catering to the newbys.

See Harley Hahn. You'll understand why I keep bringing up his name in
the context of such a book for new users. The books I know by him are
older, but perfectly relevant.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------

On 2008-08-27, Sylvain Robitaille wrote:
>
> I realize that Matt Welsh's book has become very non-Slackware specific,
> but it appears to still be a very complete, very informational book. I
> think the first Linux-specific book I owned (and still own) was his book
> (second edition, if memory serves; I'll have to check when I'm home),
> and that book got me from only knowing a little about Linux to setting
> up a system with it to using it exclusively.

I think Running Linux was bogus. I went along for a couple chapters just
fine, then BINGO!.... Matt throws out a couple terms that mean zip to me.
Now what? Can't look it up on the web, cuz my RH box is not configured for
networking yet. Much of the rest of the book is similar. It assumes too
much prior knowledge on the reader's part. Sorry, but I'd never recommend
this book to anyone. The Slack book is much better for the beginer. Hell,
Mark Sobell's Unix System V: A Practical Guide is a better book for the
beginning slacker. (he did a linux book, too, but I think he jes
re-released the unix book after s/unix/linux/'ing the script

nb

I think the book that served me the best and still does to this day is
Linux System Commands by Pat V. and Kevin Reichard that came with my
slack 7. If I run into a problem this has got to be the best for finding
that one command to make things work.
I admit I haven't looked at the other books mentioned but eh it works.
MikeinAK

notbob wrote:

> I think Running Linux was bogus. I went along for a couple chapters
> just fine, then BINGO!.... Matt throws out a couple terms that mean
> zip to me. Now what? Can't look it up on the web, cuz my RH box is
> not configured for networking yet. Much of the rest of the book is
> similar. It assumes too much prior knowledge on the reader's part.
> Sorry, but I'd never recommend this book to anyone.

Hrmmm... I didn't have that experience, but perhaps later versions made
different assumptions than the version I have. Perhaps also I may have
been starting from a position of "prior knowledge" that was being
assumed (having by that time already read Hahn's Unix Unbound and had
some experience with DEC Ultrix and OSF1/Dec-Unix, though no sys-admin
experience yet at the time).

> The Slack book is much better for the beginer.

Maybe. I found Running Linux was THE book to get started with
Slackware. For beginners, I find Hahn's books to be fantastic.

--
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------