Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server? - Slackware

This is a discussion on Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server? - Slackware ; Helmut Hullen wrote: >> The second one behaves differently if run with root privilege than it >> does without. Without root privilege, it will download package >> updates from the configured Slackware mirror, ... > > I have a script ...

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Thread: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

  1. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Helmut Hullen wrote:

    >> The second one behaves differently if run with root privilege than it
    >> does without. Without root privilege, it will download package
    >> updates from the configured Slackware mirror, ...

    >
    > I have a script for this job (which only updates the subdirs I need,
    > especially no x* subdir). But I have to look "manually" into the
    > "Changelog" nevertheless. I don't allow any machine to change the
    > installation automatically.


    I run my UPDATE.sh script daily from an unprivileged user's crontab, and
    that causes only downloads to happen automatically. I invoke it
    manually as root, which of course isn't that different from what you're
    doing. On a few occasions, rather than invoking the UPGRADE.sh script
    as root, I selectively upgraded packages, but that really hasn't been
    necessary in a while. The output from the script running as non-root
    lets you know what would be updated if running as root, so it's easy to
    know if there's anything you want to be selective about.

    It's a tool, of course, and offered only because I hope it can be useful
    to someone besides myself. Feel free to pilfer any portions of it that
    you find useful enough to add to your own script(s) rather than using
    mine as it is, if that's how it can be of use to you. :-)

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  2. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Hallo, Sylvain,

    Du meintest am 13.08.08:

    > It's a tool, of course, and offered only because I hope it can be
    > useful to someone besides myself.


    Again: many thanks!

    I use machines not only as toys but sometimes as tools to make live more
    easy.

    But I won't lose the illusion that I am the master and the machine is
    the servant.

    I'm sure the machines make sometimes slight errors just to support this
    illusion ..

    Viele Gruesse
    Helmut

    "Ubuntu" - an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".


  3. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:40:53 +0000, Sylvain Robitaille wrote:

    > Mark Madsen wrote:
    >
    >>> You don't lock your screen when you go get the coffee???

    >>
    >> These days you can use bluetooth proximity sensing to do it without
    >> human interaction, just make sure you keep your phone in your pocket.

    >
    > Hrmmm... I like the idea, but would still want to have to type something
    > at the keyboard. I could be talked into combining the two methods, of
    > course. :-)


    I gather that layering of this kind should be not too difficult. It's on
    my project list for when the hectic summer is over.

    >> There is definitely nothing to be learned from anyone who can't figure
    >> out how to work Ubuntu :-)

    >
    > Be careful, though, to distinguish between those who can't figure it
    > out, and those who may either simply not be inclined to look very deeply
    > into it, or who would actively avoid figuring it out, just because it
    > isn't Slackware. The line between them might appear very fine at times.


    Hence the smiley :-)

    > I don't have a lot of experience with Ubuntu, preferring Slackware quite
    > consistently, but the experience I do have with it has been positively
    > impressive. I see no reason not to recommend it, though I still would
    > recommend Slackware as a better (simpler, more stable) choice,
    > especially for a "production" environment.


    These are the compelling reasons for going with Slackware, especially as
    far as the OP is concerned.

    > On the other hand I never felt much need to find all the ways I would
    > need to make Ubuntu more like Slackware, since I can just install
    > Slackware instead and be much more familiar with how the system is
    > organized.


    If you're gonna insist on making sense you're going to take all the
    humour value out of this thread.

  4. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 19:50:02 +0000, Sylvain Robitaille wrote:

    > Mark Madsen wrote:
    >
    >> The problem is one of scaling. Saying they support RHEL5 means not
    >> having to cope with every conceivable kernel configuration and library
    >> setup.

    >
    > Ok, but couldn't they just simply state that they'll support their
    > application running on a system with kernel version X, with the
    > following drivers and options enabled, and ensuring that some list of
    > libraries is available. They could, of course, suggest that RHEL5 (or
    > whatever) is their "preferred" configuration, but if a client can make a
    > system provide the necessary components, the application should still be
    > supported.


    I mostly agree with you, I was playing devil's advocate to try to expose
    the reasoning of application vendors, although it isn't really that
    strong.

    > Clients who don't understand how to provide the desired kernel, kernel
    > options, and libraries could simply use the "preferred" configuration
    > (RHEL5 in this example), since those are the folks that likely wouldn't
    > have that strong a preference for which Linux their systems run on.


    Or they could use CentOS or Scientific Linux and get that configuration
    free-gratis.

    > I'm honestly surprised that no application vendor (that I'm aware of)
    > has figured out that they can tell their clients simply "our application
    > needs kernel version FOO, with libc version BAR and database version
    > BAZ."


    I'm not convinced that many apps need even be that specific. There is a
    lot of expertise out there in writing code that runs on pretty much all
    distros across a range of kernels and libraries (vide Firefox or Opera
    for example).

  5. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On 2008-08-13, Xavier Maillard wrote:
    > According to Helmut Hullen :
    >> "Ubuntu" - an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".

    >
    > I love this one



    Xavier,

    I had to unsubscribe you from the slackbuilds-users list
    because you were generating bounces. I don't have the
    exact bounce message any more, but if you don't already
    know (and have fixed) the problem, I'll see what I can
    dig up.

    Anyway, if you still want the list mail, you need to
    resub to the list.

    -RW

  6. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Mark Madsen wrote:

    > I mostly agree with you, I was playing devil's advocate to try to
    > expose the reasoning of application vendors, although it isn't really
    > that strong.


    I understand that, and I wasn't really trying to argue with you so much
    as with your devil's advocate ...

    >> Clients who don't understand ... could simply use the "preferred"
    >> configuration (RHEL5 in this example), ...

    >
    > Or they could use CentOS or Scientific Linux and get that configuration
    > free-gratis.


    Yes, of course, that is assuming they understand that CentOS or
    Scientific will give them that ...

    > I'm not convinced that many apps need even be that specific.


    My point exactly. Most of the applications are user-space anyway, so
    why the fuss over which Linux distribution the vendor will support it
    on. Just tell me which libraries (and perhaps additional apps, such as
    Apache, or PostgreSQL, or whatever) it needs, and let's get on with it!

    My experience is that the folks who provide that support don't actually
    know what components of the "supported environment" are required by
    their application. And we, as clients, pay them extra for that. :-(

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  7. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Helmut Hullen wrote:

    > But I won't lose the illusion that I am the master and the machine is
    > the servant.


    The machines definitely want you to maintain that illusion! ;-)

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  8. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Mark Madsen wrote:

    > If you're gonna insist on making sense you're going to take all the
    > humour value out of this thread.


    Ah yes, well, nonsense is usually Loki's specialty, and I prefer not to
    compete with the expert! ;-)

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  9. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    According to Robby Workman :
    > On 2008-08-13, Xavier Maillard wrote:
    > > According to Helmut Hullen :
    > >> "Ubuntu" - an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".

    > >
    > > I love this one

    >
    >
    > Xavier,
    >
    > I had to unsubscribe you from the slackbuilds-users list
    > because you were generating bounces. I don't have the
    > exact bounce message any more, but if you don't already
    > know (and have fixed) the problem, I'll see what I can
    > dig up.


    It would help to know why I bounced back so many times

    Regards,

    Xavier

  10. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:15:18 +0000, Sylvain Robitaille did catÂ*:

    > Mark Madsen wrote:
    >
    >> If you're gonna insist on making sense you're going to take all the
    >> humour value out of this thread.

    >
    > Ah yes, well, nonsense is usually Loki's specialty, and I prefer not to
    > compete with the expert! ;-)


    Ah, is that what I get for keeping quiet since this thread started and
    slapping me all those days to hold my fingers back from the keyboard
    while I read it, chanting mantras to liber me from temptation and
    there you come and then I fail! Auuuugh! Great deceiver !-)

  11. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    jjg il 11:26, marted́ 12 agosto 2008 ha scritto:

    > Massimiliano Vessi wrote:
    >
    >> jjg il 09:37, marted́ 12 agosto 2008 ha scritto:
    >>
    >>> Hello, *
    >>>
    >>> I am about to install a brand new server. Of course Slackware, at least
    >>> as far a I am concerned. However, my colleague is "in Ubuntu". In his
    >>> opinion, Slackware is a small and vulnerable organization, and Ubuntu
    >>> has a more robust backing. Moreover, Ubuntu uses the (huge) Debian
    >>> libraries. I have quite a bit of experience with Ubuntu, not at all bad,
    >>> but I still prefer Slackware, mainly because it has a clear structure of
    >>> startup files, an unpatched kernel, and a good and stable collection of
    >>> tools. Can anybody give me more ammo?

    >>
    >> Ubuntu for Server.... Ah ah ah!
    >>
    >> You'll have to choose the "SERVER EDITION", bucause the normal version
    >> hasn't root!!!!

    >
    > Well, it has, although it is more or less hidden. If you do sudo passwd
    > root you can set the password. And outside the GUI (with Alt-F1 etc.) you
    > can still login as root.


    Really, it's not so simple; if you need other users don't do some mess, you
    can't use ubuntu!
    UBUNTU-style: "I know my password, I destroy all the system!"
    It's absurd try tu use Ubuntu for servers, every hacker who take a password
    of any users can access to root privileges!

    >
    >>
    >> However I never recomend UBUNTU for server, because when you install
    >> software, you have to install software compiled by otherone, without
    >> options you need and so on...

    >
    > Could you be more specific on that? I mean, my experiences with Ubuntu are
    > not bad. I still have a preference for Slackware, however.


    Many times you need some software for a specific purpose, but after you
    install a software with ubuntu (or RPM with other distros), you can't do
    what you want, because you need to add some option in during compilation.
    One example: the standard MySQL binary with Wikipedia CAN'T search word with
    3 or less character, with Slackware you compile with the proper option you
    need.

    Another, very important fact, is that you usually recompile your kernel with
    the option for you processor and system, AND THEN you compile the software
    you need. There are many performance that other systems (like UBUNTU) can't
    use. This is true and it's very evident on pc/server with old hardware.

    >
    >>
    >> Only with Slackware all is in your power.

    >
    > That is my main consideration, but it has so far failed to convince my
    > colleague...


    You need to know all the option of compilation of the software you use, I
    always compile all the missing software I need on Slackware.
    Max

  12. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 06:50:34 +0000, Loki Harfagr wrote:

    > Thu, 14 Aug 2008 02:15:18 +0000, Sylvain Robitaille did catÂ*:
    >
    >> Mark Madsen wrote:
    >>
    >>> If you're gonna insist on making sense you're going to take all the
    >>> humour value out of this thread.

    >>
    >> Ah yes, well, nonsense is usually Loki's specialty, and I prefer not to
    >> compete with the expert! ;-)



    > Ah, is that what I get for keeping quiet since this thread started and
    > slapping me all those days to hold my fingers back from the keyboard
    > while I read it, chanting mantras to liber me from temptation and there
    > you come and then I fail! Auuuugh! Great deceiver !-)



  13. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 07:30:55 +0000, Massimiliano Vessi wrote:

    > UBUNTU-style: "I know my password, I destroy all the system!" It's
    > absurd try tu use Ubuntu for servers, every hacker who take a password
    > of any users can access to root privileges!


    As written, this is nonsense. The Ubuntu default is to create *the
    first* user account with admin privilege (the ability to use sudo). And
    removing that admin privilege is also trivial. And when running a
    server, the existence of a root account with admin privileges provides a
    prime target for a cracker. There's nothing stopping one from preventing
    root login by having the admin user have a non-obvious name, and it can
    be done as easily on slack as anything else.

  14. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Mark Madsen wrote:

    > server, the existence of a root account with admin privileges provides a
    > prime target for a cracker. There's nothing stopping one from preventing


    So you leave your desktop/servers exposed, you dont filter ssh ports, then
    you deserved to get all the script kiddies around to target you,
    activating root account is still far safer then sudo in ubuntus default
    setup as per my previous comment to the OP.


    --
    Cheers
    Res

    "The hopes we had, were much to high, way out of reach, but we have to
    try, no need to hide, no need to run, cause all the answers come one by
    one. The game will never be over, because we're keeping the dream alive"
    -Freiheit

  15. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On Thu, 14 Aug 2008 20:53:57 +1000, Res wrote:

    > On Thu, 14 Aug 2008, Mark Madsen wrote:
    >
    >> server, the existence of a root account with admin privileges provides
    >> a prime target for a cracker. There's nothing stopping one from
    >> preventing

    >
    > So you leave your desktop/servers exposed, you dont filter ssh ports,


    The technical term you are looking for is "straw man".

    > then you deserved to get all the script kiddies around to target you,


    The legal term you are looking for is "prejudice".

    > activating root account is still far safer then sudo in ubuntus default
    > setup as per my previous comment to the OP.


    The adjective you are looking for is "simplistic".

  16. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    In article ,
    Sylvain Robitaille wrote:

    > Martijn Dekker wrote:
    >
    > > ... I do actually use slapt-get on one system I manage .... The other
    > > day it wanted to downgrade 'links' back to a prerelease version
    > > because it considers "2.1pre23" to be a higher version number than
    > > "2.1".

    >
    > Slackware's own "upgradepkg" will do the same.


    Slackware's upgradepkg does not consider version numbers to have any
    particular order about them at all, it will upgrade (or downgrade) if
    the version number is merely different from the one in the package
    already installed.

    Slapt-get, on the other hand, will upgrade only if it considers the
    version number of the new package to be more recent. It is not always
    correct in determining which package has the more recent version number.
    Also, it'll upgrade automatically unless you blacklist the package in
    question.

    > The expectation (at least with upgradepkg) is that there is
    > competence in judgement from a human invoking the upgrade utility.


    Exactly. However, that is not the basic assumption built in to
    slapt-get. It tries to make the judgement for you.

    - Martijn

  17. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Loki Harfagr wrote:

    > Ah, is that what I get for keeping quiet since this thread started ...


    Yes! ;-) Thanks for coming in right on cue! :-)

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  18. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    Massimiliano Vessi wrote:

    > It's absurd try tu use Ubuntu for servers, every hacker who take a
    > password of any users can access to root privileges!


    What's absurd is to use ANY OS distribution for "servers" (in fact, for
    any multi-user system) without taking appropriate measures to properly
    secure the system(s).

    > One example: the standard MySQL binary with Wikipedia CAN'T search
    > word with 3 or less character, with Slackware you compile with the
    > proper option you need.


    What about the Slackware-supplied MySQL package? If you can compile
    MySQL as you need for Slackware, when there's already a package
    available, why couldn't you do the same for any other Linux
    distribution?

    > Another, very important fact, is that you usually recompile your
    > kernel with the option for you processor and system, AND THEN you
    > compile the software you need. There are many performance that other
    > systems (like UBUNTU) can't use.


    You can't compile a custom kernel on a Ubuntu system? If you can compile
    a custom kernel as you need for Slackware, when there's already a kernel
    packaged with the distribution, why couldn't you do the same for any
    other Linux distribution?

    > You need to know all the option of compilation of the software you
    > use, I always compile all the missing software I need on Slackware.


    Neither of the examples you gave refer to software that is "missing"
    from Slackware, though. You could just as easily compile those for any
    other Linux distribution. Perhaps Gentoo Linux would be more in line
    with your needs?

    Don't get me wrong: I prefer Slackware, and will readily recommend it.
    I'm just trying to point out that your arguments (at least those you
    present in the message to which I'm following up) don't demonstrate
    any compelling reasons to use Slackware rather than any other Linux
    distribution. You haven't convinced me, and I already prefer Slackware,
    so that won't help the OP ...

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  19. Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?

    On 2008-08-14, Xavier Maillard wrote:
    > According to Robby Workman :
    >> On 2008-08-13, Xavier Maillard wrote:
    >> > According to Helmut Hullen :
    >> >> "Ubuntu" - an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".
    >> >
    >> > I love this one

    >>
    >>
    >> Xavier,
    >>
    >> I had to unsubscribe you from the slackbuilds-users list
    >> because you were generating bounces. I don't have the
    >> exact bounce message any more, but if you don't already
    >> know (and have fixed) the problem, I'll see what I can
    >> dig up.

    >
    > It would help to know why I bounced back so many times



    Well, I just sent a test message to you.
    If you get it, all is well now and you should resubscribe to
    the list. If not, give a few days to bounce (they were taking
    as much as a week to bounce before) and I'll ping you here when
    it does.

    -RW

  20. [OT] mail bounces (was Re: Can (or should) I try to avoid Ubuntu server?)

    Robby Workman wrote:

    > ... give a few days to bounce (they were taking as much as a week to
    > bounce before) ...


    That means they were temp-failing prior to bouncing. You should see the
    first notification of temp-failure after approximately 4 hours (usually
    unless the MTA configuration is significantly different than most in
    this regard) since having sent the message ....

    I hope that helps ...

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Network and Systems analyst / (ex)Postmaster Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

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