Slack derivative? - Slackware

This is a discussion on Slack derivative? - Slackware ; Two Ravens says: >ray wrote: >> Joe Sixpack is not going to 'compile the software oneself'. He >> want the simplest easiest way to the largest number of >> applications. >what exactly is so difficult about a) get a ready ...

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Thread: Slack derivative?

  1. Re: Slack derivative?

    Two Ravens says:
    >ray wrote:


    >> Joe Sixpack is not going to 'compile the software oneself'. He
    >> want the simplest easiest way to the largest number of
    >> applications.


    >what exactly is so difficult about a) get a ready made package from
    >somewhere such as Linux packages, or, b) doing ./configure > make >
    >makeinstall/make checkinstall, apart from watching it compile that is?


    Oh, come on. Lots of time you have to run ./configure --help to see
    which options are turned on and off. And if you don't know what you
    are doing you can easily bugger things up.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  2. Re: Slack derivative?

    Ron Gibson says:
    >On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 13:20:58 -0600, ray wrote:


    >> I'm talking about the friends. Different ball of wax than doing
    >> it at home.


    >I've got 3 friends that are complete noobs. I set them up so they
    >even boot into runlevel 3 and in rc.local I echo a message...


    >****************** Login username ******************
    >****************** Enter password *******************


    >************* Type "win" to start Windows ************


    >Yes they are that dumb. But guess what? One said, "Man, this is
    >great. When Windows dies I just boot another OS. Where can you buy
    >a computer to do that?".


    He's just trying not to hurt your feelings. The truth of it is,
    when windows dies, he either wants another windows come up, or he
    would rather windows didn't die in the first place.

    Behind your back he laughs at you, as do all your other "friends"
    because you're a linux zealot. People can't help but laugh at
    zealots. Zealots are one of the things we can all laugh about and
    your presence directly promotes camaraderie amongst your other
    "friends." They are all laughing at you behind your back and they
    would never, ever, ever, accept a linux-only installation on their
    main box.

    >I have never had to fix their Linux but I've reinstalled their
    >windows several times.


    That's because they never use the linux, moron.

    >I used Slackware and they have zero problems. The true newbie just
    >wants to surf, play a song and do email. The problems usually start
    >when they wish to boldly go forward from that point.


    And they use windoze to do it.

    >A little bit of intimidation is a good thing. It keeps them out of
    >trouble.


    It keeps them out of that linux partition, anyway.

    They're all laughing at you. Mom and Dad both laughed at you. Your
    brothers and sisters laugh at you. Your dog even laughs at you.
    The only reason your cat doesn't laugh at you anymore is because the
    damned thing laughed itself to death.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  3. Re: Slack derivative?

    On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 14:26:40 -0700, Keith Keller wrote:

    >>> In what way? Ubuntu's package tools bother me to no end.
    >>> Slackware's never do.


    >> Really - my experience has been the opposite.


    > Well, I'm curious what aspects of pkgtool and friends are bothersome,
    > then.


    You know a distinction between Slackware's system and RPM, etc occurred t
    me.

    We have package tools with more user options. OTOH, RPM, etc are
    "Packaged Managed" systems thats take many decisions out of the hands of
    the user.

    If the package managed systems always worked right and were easy to
    repair when errors occur it would be different. I have found that they
    sooner or later require much more extensive repair than pkgtool's ever
    has.

    And then some distros take even more of the management from the user or
    try to hide it behind unnecessary interfaces. Then they try to sell you
    support to keep in order their almost proprietary interface.

    --
    Linux Help: http://rsgibson.com/linux.htm
    Email - rsgibson@verizon.borg
    Replace borg with net


  4. Re: Slack derivative?

    On 2007-08-14, Ron Gibson wrote:
    >
    > If the package managed systems always worked right and were easy to
    > repair when errors occur it would be different. I have found that they
    > sooner or later require much more extensive repair than pkgtool's ever
    > has.


    Well, pkgtool should really never need ''repairs''. Consider some
    possible failure scenarios:

    --You've accidentally deleted a file in /var/log/packages/, so
    upgradepkg doesn't work. Well, worst case, simply installpkg the new
    package; if you're paranoid, get a copy of the right package file and
    put it there.

    --You've accidentally deleted a file from package Z. Okay, so
    upgradepkg or installpkg, or if you're paranoid, simply extract the
    correct file from the tarball.

    --You haven't installed package Z1, which package Z2 needs in order to
    run, and you're running -current so you might not have exactly the right
    libraries. Well, when you run package Z2, it'll complain about Z1, and
    if you install Z1, and it still doesn't work, it's your job to track
    down the other deps. (That's annoying, but if you didn't want to deal
    with it, you'd run a release version.)

    --You deleted the pkgtool scripts. Well, just untar the package.

    --You deleted tar. Not sure what you'd do here, actually; I guess you
    have to find another medium that has the right version for you, and use
    that to install the package.

    --The package is corrupt. Yell at the package maintainer.

    --There's a bug in tar. Yell at Pat to fix the package.

    I suspect the worst that could happen is that a package is so poorly
    packaged that it overwrites files from other packages without telling
    you (e.g., package tcsh overwrites /bin/bash). But that's a bug in the
    package itself, and I'm not convinced the package tool is the
    appropriate place to catch this kind of bug (and I'm not aware that rpm
    or apt catch it, though perhaps they do).

    If there are other failure modes that rpm and/or apt handle more
    gracefully than pkgtool, I'm happy to hear them. But the best thing
    about pkgtool is that there's no way to break the package database in
    such a way that pkgtool no longer works: recovery is almost trivial
    compared to a corrupted rpm database.

    --keith

    --
    kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
    see X- headers for PGP signature information


  5. Re: Slack derivative?

    On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 07:53:37 -0700, mikey coons wrote:

    > I've used KDE in the past, and hope it's matured a bit. I'm actually glad
    > Pat dropped Gnome. Not that I don't like it, but too many choices makes for
    > bloatware, IMHO>


    Ummmm......

    > X-Newsreader: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2900.3138


    Yeah..... you should know.

    Bugger off, Win-droid.



    --
    "Bother!" said Pooh, as Christopher Robin pleaded to be spanked again.


  6. Re: Slack derivative?

    Realto Margarino wrote:

    > Oh, come on. *Lots of time you have to run ./configure --help to see
    > which options are turned on and off. *And if you don't know what you
    > are doing you can easily bugger things up.
    >
    > cordially, as always,


    I see, its the "if you don't know what you are doing you can easily bugger
    things up", bit that some have the problem with. I'm left wondering if they
    don't know what they're doing, then why do they insist that other forms of
    package management are 'better' when what they are is different.
    --
    Two Ravens
    "...hit the squirrel..."

  7. Re: Slack derivative?

    On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:54:50 GMT,
    Realto Margarino wrote:
    > mikey coons says:
    >>"Sylvain Robitaille" wrote in message

    >
    >>> I don't know of any "newbie derivative"s, but even if I did, I
    >>> would recommend using Slackware itself. Why go for a
    >>> derivative when you can have the real thing?

    >
    >>Agreed. I've got 2 spare boxes to use and can play with it till
    >>I'm comfortable. I understand I need only the first 2 CD's of
    >>the distro?

    >
    > Yep. That's one CD for each box.
    >
    >>And I've had some experience with Linux in general and Slack in
    >>particular a few years ago.

    >
    > Yep. Keep in mind, though, that Sylvain Robitaille is a French
    > Canadian.


    Okay, maybe you can explain what being French Canadian has to do
    with anything in this thread.

    --
    Theodore (Ted) Heise Bloomington, IN, USA

  8. Re: Slack derivative?

    Theodore Heise says:
    > Realto Margarino wrote:


    >> Yep. Keep in mind, though, that Sylvain Robitaille is a French
    >> Canadian.


    >Okay, maybe you can explain what being French Canadian has to do
    >with anything in this thread.


    You'll have to ask Sylvain. We're Anglais. Montreal used to have
    nice, fashionably dressed women. But we haven't been there in some
    time and by all reports, the better looking girls have either grown
    old, or moved to Toronto.

    cordially, as always,

    rm
    --
    http://sports.jrank.org/pages/4065/R...lishments.html

  9. Re: Slack derivative?

    Theodore Heise wrote:
    > Realto Margarino wrote:
    >> mikey coons says:
    >>

    .... snip ...
    >>
    >>> And I've had some experience with Linux in general and Slack in
    >>> particular a few years ago.

    >>
    >> Yep. Keep in mind, though, that Sylvain Robitaille is a French
    >> Canadian.

    >
    > Okay, maybe you can explain what being French Canadian has to do
    > with anything in this thread.


    Bear in mind that Realto Margarino is a known troll.

    --
    Chuck F (cbfalconer at maineline dot net)
    Available for consulting/temporary embedded and systems.




    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com


  10. Re: Slack derivative?

    On Sat, 18 Aug 2007 17:26:54 -0400,
    CBFalconer wrote:
    > Theodore Heise wrote:
    >> Realto Margarino wrote:
    >>>
    >>> Yep. Keep in mind, though, that Sylvain Robitaille is a
    >>> French Canadian.

    >>
    >> Okay, maybe you can explain what being French Canadian has to
    >> do with anything in this thread.

    >
    > Bear in mind that Realto Margarino is a known troll.


    Well, this statement seemed unusually out there.

    --
    Theodore (Ted) Heise Bloomington, IN, USA


  11. Re: Slack derivative?

    Well, an update.......

    I tried installing Vector, Zenwalk, and Slackware 12 on the second drive. I
    also tried installing them on just the primary drive. I also installed
    Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint, and a few others.

    The only derivative of Slack that didn't lock up my monitor was Salckware
    itself. (have Radeon ATI 9200SE DVI with known Linux issues). However, the
    install script from Slackware didn't play nice and corrupted the MBR of my
    Ubuntu install and locked up the mouse. The reason I know, it that I had
    configured the mouse in Slack and when I booted using it's lilo menu, my
    Ubuntu system broke with a dead mouse.

    I'm no expert, and will get flamed for this, but this is my noob opinion:
    The install script on all the Slackware derivatives is broken (on wierd
    hardware like mine anyway). Zenwalk defaults to a filestem that doesn't
    allow Lilo to install to the Super block of the install it's put on. It
    refuses to load there. Same with Zenwalk and Wolvixx. My guess is that they
    slimmed down at the expense of hardware that wasn't tested.

    Slackware installs OK, if you only use it on the primary drive. Trying to
    get it to play nice and install lilo on the super block leaves you with an
    un-bootable system (even is you have a boot floppy or bootable USB, which I
    made)> When I installed it on HDb, and allowed it to over write GRUB put on
    by Ubuntu, it crashed both installs. I'm thinking LILO is not meant for
    anything *creative*, multi-boot, etc. However, my hardware could be the
    culprit, except.........

    Ubuntu installed flawlessly, configured my Radeon video card, AND picked up
    both USB wifi clients I had lying around with NO problem. It comes with
    Network Manager, and it works out of the box. (7.04)

    This is to be expected with the resources behind Ubuntu I suppose. And, Pat
    is only one man................While I will keep trying to get Lackware to
    install on my multi-boot Linux box, I cannot give up a working system that's
    so easy to use, just to tinker with Slackware. I think Slack needs some new
    tools, mainly GRUB, Network Manager, and maybe ndswrapper to default install
    on a new box.

    I'm sure the power users here can get it right in no time, but I haven't got
    the time just to get a bootable sytem. For a dedicated Slack install, there
    should be no problem (using an Nvida VGA card, and nothing out of the
    ordinary). But becaues Ubuntu works so well, I shouldn't have to buy new
    hardware if the tools are available now. Ubuntu only installs open source,
    so there are no proprietary drivers I could find..

    Anyway, I'll keep trying, as I like this distro so much. Thanks for the
    replies, too!




  12. Re: Slack derivative?

    "mikey coons" (rukidding@aol.com) writes:
    > Well, an update.......
    >
    > I tried installing Vector, Zenwalk, and Slackware 12 on the second drive. I
    > also tried installing them on just the primary drive. I also installed
    > Ubuntu, Kubuntu, Mint, and a few others.
    >
    > The only derivative of Slack that didn't lock up my monitor was Salckware
    > itself. (have Radeon ATI 9200SE DVI with known Linux issues). However, the
    > install script from Slackware didn't play nice and corrupted the MBR of my
    > Ubuntu install and locked up the mouse. The reason I know, it that I had
    > configured the mouse in Slack and when I booted using it's lilo menu, my
    > Ubuntu system broke with a dead mouse.
    >

    There is no way that the configuration of one distribution will affect
    operation of another, unless you are actually using the same /home
    directory (because one distribution might be using a differet version
    of a program and the config file is different between versions).

    You quite one distribution and start another, and neither knows about
    the other.

    Hence one distribution will not kill your mouse.

    I suspect some of your problem is that you expect things to be done
    for you, hence there are problems when the install doesn't do it all
    for you. Because trying to provide a proper reply to your post is
    more daunting than even the first time I installed Slackware.

    Any video card will allow for useage as a "standard vga card", hence
    out of the box something should work. If you're having problems, I
    suspect it's the handholding of a distribution, which you don't have
    control over. Indeed, one reason Slackware works out of the box
    is because it doesn't automatically jump into a gui, so the fuss over
    setting it up isn't there.

    Is the glass half full, or half empty? You see problems because you
    expect things to be done, and if it's not done you're stuck, I see
    no problems because I expect to have to do the work and thus the
    distribution won't set things automatically.

    Take note that the loader is not the actually installation. If you
    mess up the loader, the partition(s) with the distribution(s) are
    still there on the hard drive, they are simply not accessible immediately.
    But there is close to a slew of methods of booting that computer and
    getting to any of the partitions.

    I'm running lilo and I have three versions of Slackware on my hard
    drive. I admit that I "feared" lilo until I sat down to understand
    what it's supposed to do, and did some experimenting. The knowledge
    that messing with it would not "destroy" the installation helped made
    me feel secure in playing with it. At the very least, I could always
    boot with a CDROM and then use that to run a given distribution.

    Being able to fix problems starts with being able to clearly describe
    the problem. "Locked up my monitor" hardly describes anything concrete
    (ie is it the monitor that isn't working, or the video card?). "Zenwalk
    defaults to a filesystem that doesn't allow Lilo to install...", is
    nonsensical, because the filesystem has nothing to do with the loader.
    "It crashed both installs" again makes no sense. Because a booting
    can fail, but the boot loader has nothing to do with the actual
    distribution other than getting things to the point where it loads
    the kernel of that distribution.

    Now you may be having problems with the boot loader, but more
    likely there is a configuration problem.

    Because I control things, rather than having to rely on someone else's
    decisions, I'm not stuck with other people's problems.

    Michael

  13. Re: Slack derivative?

    On 2007-08-24, Michael Black wrote:




    > Because I control things, rather than having to rely on someone else's
    > decisions, I'm not stuck with other people's problems.






    nb

  14. Re: Slack derivative?

    On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 19:17:51 -0700, mikey coons wrote:



    > Ubuntu installed flawlessly, configured my Radeon video card, AND picked up
    > both USB wifi clients I had lying around with NO problem. It comes with
    > Network Manager, and it works out of the box. (7.04)


    Sounds like you better just run Ubuntu, then. Slackware is beyond your
    abilities, without a doubt.

    Run along now, Win-droid.




    --
    "Bother!" said Pooh, as Christopher Robin pleaded to be spanked again.


  15. Re: Slack derivative?


    "Michael Black" wrote in message
    news:falh85$him$1@theodyn.ncf.ca...
    > There is no way that the configuration of one distribution will affect
    > operation of another, unless you are actually using the same /home
    > directory (because one distribution might be using a differet version
    > of a program and the config file is different between versions).
    >


    Yes, me thinks that's exactly what happened. Ubuntu read the /home partition
    of Slackware after I installed Slackware.


    > You quite one distribution and start another, and neither knows about
    > the other.
    >
    > Hence one distribution will not kill your mouse.
    >

    Maybe not for you, but, yes, hardware/software conflicts are pretty common.


    > I suspect some of your problem is that you expect things to be done
    > for you, hence there are problems when the install doesn't do it all
    > for you. Because trying to provide a proper reply to your post is
    > more daunting than even the first time I installed Slackware.
    >

    I know my post was a bit "non-protocol", and I'm not a Slackware expert. It
    was meant to simply post my observations, based on my experience, and surely
    not to procure any help here.


    > Any video card will allow for useage as a "standard vga card", hence
    > out of the box something should work. If you're having problems, I
    > suspect it's the handholding of a distribution, which you don't have
    > control over. Indeed, one reason Slackware works out of the box
    > is because it doesn't automatically jump into a gui, so the fuss over
    > setting it up isn't there.
    >

    Actually, I thought that Slackware didn't allow "enough" options at install
    time. The video configuration was linear, did not allow for unexpected
    hardware, and maybe my DVI interface was responsible, I don't know. I do
    know that Slackware would NOT install on the super block of the / partition.
    How? Well I ran GAG, and Parted Magic to check for bootable partitions. Who
    made the decison to use lilo anyway? It was obsolete years ago. I think I
    remember a version with grub AND GNOME. Hey, going backwards is still
    moving, right? Maybe with 13.0 we can get a FAT 16 filesystem, too as
    default.



    > Is the glass half full, or half empty? You see problems because you
    > expect things to be done, and if it's not done you're stuck, I see
    > no problems because I expect to have to do the work and thus the
    > distribution won't set things automatically.
    >


    Not at all. I expect that Slackware should install and be bootable, even if
    I have to set default values. I would have liked more choices, not less. The
    reason I mentioned Ubuntu was to prove that my hardware was not that wierd,
    only that Slackware may be out of date, old school, buggy, or written for
    the choir.


    > Being able to fix problems starts with being able to clearly describe
    > the problem. "Locked up my monitor" hardly describes anything concrete
    > (ie is it the monitor that isn't working, or the video card?). "Zenwalk
    > defaults to a filesystem that doesn't allow Lilo to install...", is
    > nonsensical, because the filesystem has nothing to do with the loader.


    Sorry, but you're wrong. It formats with the XFS scheme, and clearly states
    it will NOT load to the / partition. Only the MBR.
    AS for my video problems, it quit with an "over sync" message, so the
    installs were trying to overpower it's capabilities. It's a pretty new
    monitor, with Hor rates of 30-82 and Vert of 50-75, which is what I
    specified at the get-go. Even throttling back didn't work. AS I said, maybe
    the DVI was too much for the probe.

    > Now you may be having problems with the boot loader, but more
    > likely there is a configuration problem.
    >

    True.

    > Because I control things, rather than having to rely on someone else's
    > decisions, I'm not stuck with other people's problems.
    >

    And I'm not stuck with a distro that has a cult-like religeous community.
    You guys always think it's "gotta be the noob's fault, becasue *I* have 4
    years under my belt, yada yada" Pat writes the Bible and you guys quote the
    verses. Anybody not yet in the church gets hammered. However, there is still
    the 1st ammendment in this country and I have stated my opinion, if only
    poorly. This distro will hang around with it's cult members defending it at
    every turn. However, the computing world moves on, better, faster hardware,
    easier installs, more options, better user experience. The PC world moves on
    and you guys can tinker away all you want.
    Sure, somebody with expert knowledge could have set=up my system. I don't,
    and never will, apparently. It's not worth it as I have *real* work to do,
    and that means a distro that doesn't require this much attention.

    Thanks for the reply.



  16. Re: Slack derivative?

    notbob says:

    >


    [nothing special, deleted]

    >


    Get a life.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  17. Re: Slack derivative?

    On Thu, 23 Aug 2007 20:52:18 -0700, mikey coons wrote:



    >> Because I control things, rather than having to rely on someone else's
    >> decisions, I'm not stuck with other people's problems.


    > And I'm not stuck with a distro that has a cult-like religeous
    > community.


    Your loss, and your problem.

    > You guys always think it's "gotta be the noob's fault, becasue *I* have
    > 4 years under my belt, yada yada" Pat writes the Bible and you guys
    > quote the verses. Anybody not yet in the church gets hammered.


    There is no bible, and no church. But it is the n00b's fault, especially
    in your case, n00b.

    > However, there is still the 1st ammendment in this country and I have
    > stated my opinion, if only poorly.


    Quite poorly in fact.

    > This distro will hang around with it's cult members defending it at
    > every turn.


    Cult members? Ummm, yeah, OK.

    > However, the computing world moves on, better, faster hardware, easier
    > installs, more options, better user experience. The PC world moves on
    > and you guys can tinker away all you want.


    I'm running Slackware on some pretty old hardware, and some very new, very
    modern, very fast hardware. Works fine on all of 'em.

    > Sure, somebody with expert knowledge could have set=up my system.


    Or even most with average knowledge. That makes you a dumbass.

    >I don't, and never will, apparently.


    Yes! You got one right!

    > It's not worth it as I have *real* work to do, and that means a distro
    > that doesn't require this much attention.


    You're clueless and stupid. Your *real* work at McDonalds doesn't require
    any knowledge of Linux.

    > Thanks for the reply.


    Welcome. Now, just **** right off and move on out of here, n00b. Stick
    with *buntu or windoze, as they're more your speed. Bugger off.


    --
    "Ubuntu" -- an African word, meaning "Slackware is too hard for me".


  18. Re: Slack derivative?

    In article , ray@zianet.com
    says...
    >
    >On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 16:09:55 +0000, Realto Margarino wrote:
    >
    >> In alt.os.linux.slackware ray says:
    >>>On Tue, 14 Aug 2007 00:58:54 +0000, Realto Margarino wrote:

    >>
    >>>> Just stick with windoze. We won't tell anyone.

    >>
    >>>That would be difficult since I haven't used ms on a regular basis
    >>>for over five years. I'm merely trying to identify what a noob
    >>>might find easier to cope with.

    >>
    >> Well then, go back to it. You don't know what you are missing.
    >>
    >> cordially, as always,
    >>
    >> rm

    >
    >I have no desire to return to ms, thank you. I don't know where you got
    >that idea.
    >

    Has it occurred to you that ms pays people to post on these forums? Or,
    they get ms "certification" and they walk out wearing brown shirts and
    moustaches?



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