Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer" - Slackware

This is a discussion on Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer" - Slackware ; Warren Oates wrote: >Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction >(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer" >when he's not. Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio principii fallacy. ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 73

Thread: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

  1. Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"




    Warren Oates wrote:

    >Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >when he's not.


    Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    a degree.

    Please See:
    Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
    Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html

    Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html

    Wikipedia: Begging the question
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

    Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
    called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
    I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
    of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
    Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
    that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
    Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
    Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
    "PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
    Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
    The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."

    Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
    Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
    include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
    "Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
    the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
    and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
    Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.

    Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
    The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
    Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
    is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.

    If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
    Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
    (Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
    "Engineer."

    Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
    to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
    hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
    that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
    Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
    recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
    category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
    the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
    as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
    examinations.

    Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
    may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
    36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
    QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
    in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
    supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)

    Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
    to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
    wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:

    "In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
    our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
    those building structures, need licensure (Professional
    Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
    despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
    as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
    http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....icleID=9900475

    It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
    a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
    few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.

    --
    Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon
    www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon




    Warren Oates wrote:

    >Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >when he's not.


    Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    a degree.

    Please See:
    Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
    Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
    http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html

    Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
    http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html

    Wikipedia: Begging the question
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question

    Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
    called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
    I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
    of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
    Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
    that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
    Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
    Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
    "PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
    Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
    The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."

    Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
    Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
    include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
    "Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
    the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
    and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
    Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.

    Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
    The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
    Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
    is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.

    If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
    Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
    (Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
    "Engineer."

    Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
    to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
    hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
    that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
    Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
    recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
    category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
    the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
    as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
    examinations.

    Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
    may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
    36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
    QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
    in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
    supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)

    Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
    to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
    wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:

    "In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
    our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
    those building structures, need licensure (Professional
    Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
    despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
    as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
    http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....icleID=9900475

    It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
    a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
    few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.

    --
    Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon
    www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon



  2. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:44:01 +0000, Guy Macon
    wrote:

    >
    >
    >
    >Warren Oates wrote:
    >
    >>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >>when he's not.

    >
    >Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    >principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    >When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    >call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    >use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    >cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    >a degree.
    >
    >Please See:
    >Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
    >Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
    >http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
    >
    >Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
    >http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html
    >
    >Wikipedia: Begging the question
    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
    >
    >Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
    >called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
    >I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
    >of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
    >Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
    >that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
    >Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
    >Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
    >"PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
    >Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
    >The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
    >
    >Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
    >Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
    >include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
    >"Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
    >the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
    >and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
    >Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
    >
    >Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
    >The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
    >Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
    >is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.
    >
    >If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
    >Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
    >(Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
    >"Engineer."
    >
    >Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
    >to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
    >hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
    >that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
    >Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
    >recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
    >category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
    >the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
    >as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
    >examinations.
    >
    >Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
    >may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
    >36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
    >QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
    >in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
    >supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)
    >
    >Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
    >to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
    >wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
    >
    > "In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
    > our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
    > those building structures, need licensure (Professional
    > Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
    > despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
    > as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
    > http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....icleID=9900475
    >
    >It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
    >a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
    >few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
    >
    >--
    >Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    >Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon
    >www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    >Guy Macon Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >Warren Oates wrote:
    >
    >>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >>when he's not.

    >
    >Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    >principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    >When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    >call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    >use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    >cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    >a degree.
    >
    >Please See:
    >Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
    >Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circle
    >http://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
    >
    >Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Question
    >http://www.nizkor.org/features/falla...-question.html
    >
    >Wikipedia: Begging the question
    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
    >
    >Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
    >called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
    >I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
    >of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
    >Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
    >that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
    >Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
    >Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
    >"PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
    >Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
    >The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
    >
    >Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
    >Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
    >include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
    >"Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
    >the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
    >and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
    >Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
    >
    >Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
    >The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
    >Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
    >is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.
    >
    >If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
    >Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
    >(Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
    >"Engineer."
    >
    >Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
    >to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
    >hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
    >that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
    >Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
    >recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
    >category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
    >the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
    >as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
    >examinations.
    >
    >Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
    >may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
    >36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
    >QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
    >in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
    >supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)
    >
    >Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
    >to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
    >wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
    >
    > "In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
    > our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
    > those building structures, need licensure (Professional
    > Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
    > despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
    > as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
    > http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....icleID=9900475
    >
    >It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
    >a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
    >few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.



  3. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:44:01 +0000, Guy Macon
    wrote:

    >
    >
    >
    >Warren Oates wrote:
    >
    >>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >>when he's not.



    The real question is whether Guy Macon can call himself a "moderator."


    John




  4. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    In article ,
    Guy Macon wrote:

    > Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    > principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    > When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    > call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    > use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    > cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    > a degree.


    Don't be disingenuous; you're either intelligent enough to to understand
    what I mean or you're not. You don't get to set the rules. **** off.
    --
    W. Oates

  5. Re: Guy Macon fraudulently using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    In alt.os.linux.slackware Guy Macon trolled:
    >Warren Oates wrote:


    >>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer" when
    >>he's not.


    >Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    >principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    >When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    >call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    >use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    >cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    >a degree.


    You certainly can in some places. It's called "reference to the
    law."

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  6. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:10:06 -0700, the renowned John Larkin
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:44:01 +0000, Guy Macon
    > wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>Warren Oates wrote:
    >>
    >>>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >>>when he's not.

    >
    >
    >The real question is whether Guy Macon can call himself a "moderator."
    >
    >
    >John


    Like graphite or beryllium?


    Best regards,
    Spehro Pefhany
    --
    "it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
    speff@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
    Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

  7. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    In article ,
    speffSNIP@interlogDOTyou.knowwhat says...
    > On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:10:06 -0700, the renowned John Larkin
    > wrote:
    >
    > >On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:44:01 +0000, Guy Macon
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>Warren Oates wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    > >>>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    > >>>when he's not.

    > >
    > >
    > >The real question is whether Guy Macon can call himself a "moderator."
    > >
    > >
    > >John

    >
    > Like graphite or beryllium?


    Lead.

    --
    Keith

  8. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:17:17 -0500, Spehro Pefhany wrote:
    > On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:10:06 -0700, the renowned John Larkin
    >>On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:44:01 +0000, Guy Macon
    >>>
    >>>Warren Oates wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>>>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >>>>when he's not.

    >>
    >>The real question is whether Guy Macon can call himself a "moderator."

    >
    > Like graphite or beryllium?
    >


    When I met him, he was much more graphitic than beryllic. ;-)

    Cheers!
    Rich


  9. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 19:17:17 -0500, Spehro Pefhany
    wrote:

    >On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 11:10:06 -0700, the renowned John Larkin
    > wrote:
    >
    >>On Fri, 13 Jul 2007 16:44:01 +0000, Guy Macon
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>Warren Oates wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>>>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    >>>>when he's not.

    >>
    >>
    >>The real question is whether Guy Macon can call himself a "moderator."
    >>
    >>
    >>John

    >
    >Like graphite or beryllium?
    >


    Heavy water?

    John



  10. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"




    Rich Grise wrote:

    >When I met him,


    ....and he bought you lunch...

    ....and take-out for use later as dinner...

    he was much more graphitic than beryllic. ;-)

    If I had to pick a substance to characterize you as,
    it would be 100% pure Sulfur hexafluoride.

    Cheers!

    --
    Guy Macon



  11. Re: Guy Macon fired again!

    In alt.os.linux.slackware Guy Macon trolled:
    >Rich Grise wrote:


    >>When I met him,


    Why would anyone want to do that?

    >...and he bought you lunch...


    Why would anyone want to do that?

    We corrected the subject line.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  12. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    On Jul 13, 6:44 pm, Guy Macon wrote:
    > Warren Oates wrote:
    > >Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    > >(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    > >when he's not.

    >
    > Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    > principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    > When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    > call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    > use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    > cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    > a degree.
    >
    > Please See:
    > Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
    > Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circlehttp://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
    >
    > Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Questionhttp://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
    >
    > Wikipedia: Begging the questionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
    >
    > Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
    > called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
    > I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
    > of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
    > Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
    > that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
    > Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
    > Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
    > "PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
    > Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
    > The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
    >
    > Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
    > Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
    > include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
    > "Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
    > the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
    > and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
    > Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
    >
    > Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
    > The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
    > Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
    > is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.
    >
    > If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
    > Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
    > (Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
    > "Engineer."
    >
    > Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
    > to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
    > hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
    > that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
    > Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
    > recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
    > category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
    > the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
    > as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
    > examinations.
    >
    > Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
    > may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
    > 36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
    > QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
    > in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
    > supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)
    >
    > Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
    > to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
    > wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
    >
    > "In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
    > our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
    > those building structures, need licensure (Professional
    > Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
    > despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
    > as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
    > http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....icleID=9900475
    >
    > It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
    > a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
    > few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
    >
    > --
    > Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    > Guy Maconwww.guymacon.comGuy Macon Guy Maconwww.guymacon.comGuy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    > Guy Macon Guy Maconwww.guymacon.comGuy Macon
    >
    > Warren Oates wrote:
    > >Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    > >(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer"
    > >when he's not.

    >
    > Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    > principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    > When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    > call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    > use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    > cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    > a degree.
    >
    > Please See:
    > Fallacy Files: Begging the Question AKA Circular Argument AKA
    > Circulus in Probando AKA Petitio Principii AKA Vicious Circlehttp://www.fallacyfiles.org/begquest.html
    >
    > Nixkor Project: Fallacy: Begging the Questionhttp://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/begging-the-question.html
    >
    > Wikipedia: Begging the questionhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question
    >
    > Even if you assume that I do not meet the requirements to be
    > called an Engineer in Quebec, I have never worked in Quebec.
    > I reside and usually work in California, USA. In the state
    > of California there is NO requirement that an Electrical
    > Engineer have a degree or license. There are job titles
    > that do require such a license, and they are listed in the
    > Professional Engineers Act. They include "Professional
    > Engineer", "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer",
    > "PE", "P.E." "Professional Electrical Engineer", "Registered
    > Electrical Engineer", "Licensed Electrical Engineer" etc.
    > The term that employers usually specify is "PE" or "P.E."
    >
    > Job titles that, according to the Professional Engineers
    > Act, require no license and have no educational requirements
    > include "Electrical Engineer", "Electronics Engineer",
    > "Electronic Engineer", etc. See Chapter 7 of Division 3 of
    > the Business and Professions (B&P) Code, sections 6700-6799.
    > and Sections 400-474.5 of Title 16, Chapter 5 of the California
    > Code of Regulations (CCR) for details.
    >
    > Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer
    > The paragraph about the IT Industry using terms such as Certified
    > Novell Engineer and Microsoft Certified Systems Engineer in Quebec
    > is especially interesting. Those titles are allowed in California.
    >
    > If I did work in Quebec I would, of course, follow Quebec law.
    > Unlike the rest of Canada, Quebec requires membership in the QIQ
    > (Order des Ingenieurs du Quebec) for all who use the Title
    > "Engineer."
    >
    > Although most QIQ members are degreed, a degree is not required
    > to be a member of QIQ. "Applications from candidates who do not
    > hold a degree that is recognized by the Quebec government as one
    > that gives access to OIQ permits are subject to review by the
    > Committee of Examiners. The Committee can make the following
    > recommendations to the Bureau of the OIQ: For candidates in
    > category C [no degree that is recognized by the Quebec government]
    > the Committee can recommend that the Bureau recognize their training
    > as equivalent either immediately or after the candidates pass the
    > examinations.
    >
    > Once the QIQ membership is obtained, the title "junior engineer"
    > may be used. To drop the "Junior", the requirement is to complete
    > 36 months of engineering experience under the supervision of a
    > QIQ member engineer, with at least 12 of these months performed
    > in Canada (and good luck finding a job outside of Canada that is
    > supervised by a QIQ member engineer!)
    >
    > Th question of whether EEs in California *should* be required
    > to have a degree or pass a test is another matter. Jack Ganssle
    > wrote this on [ Embedded.com ]:
    >
    > "In the embedded world, no law dictates our use of titles or
    > our ability to practice our art. Some engineers, for example
    > those building structures, need licensure (Professional
    > Engineers). That's mostly outside of the electronics world,
    > despite the fact that we're now building systems every bit
    > as dangerous as a bridge or large building."
    > http://www.embedded.com/showArticle....icleID=9900475
    >
    > It's an interesting thought. I like the idea of a test. As for
    > a degree, there are many fine degreed engineers, but there are a
    > few who make you wonder who they bribed in order to graduate.
    >
    > --
    > Gooogle foood: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    > Guy Maconwww.guymacon.comGuy Macon Guy Maconwww.guymacon.comGuy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    > Guy Macon Guy Maconwww.guymacon.comGuy Macon


    Maybe you're right, i'm an Electronics Engineer (with a degree) but i
    think that tomorrow i'll start to call me something like "Spiderman"
    or "Superman" because there is a small state near Taiwan where there
    is no law that say that i must have some kind of super-power to be a
    super hero.
    Maybe I'll have more luck with girls.

    Seriusly, aren't you embarassed? Ask Terminator if you can have an ad
    honorem degree.

    cordially,

    a real engineer


  13. Re: Guy Macon fraudulently using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    Roger Manyard wrote:

    > In alt.os.linux.slackware Guy Macon trolled:
    >>Warren Oates wrote:

    >
    >>>Mr. Macon would face legal action in at least one jurisdiction
    >>>(Quebec) and possibly other for calling himself an "engineer" when
    >>>he's not.

    >
    >>Your "when he is not" comment is an example of the petitio
    >>principii fallacy. otherwise known as "begging the question."
    >>When debating the issue of whether Guy Macon can properly
    >>call himself an Engineer without having a degree, you can't
    >>use as one of your premises the assumption that Guy Macon
    >>cannot properly call himself an Engineer without having
    >>a degree.

    >
    > You certainly can in some places. It's called "reference to the
    > law."
    >
    > cordially, as always,
    >
    > rm

    Just to top things off, there is a Licenced Engineer in the office i work in
    who does not have a BS degree. Happens to be in California as well, so
    that the legal rules are the same.
    --
    JosephKK
    Gegen dummheit kampfen die Gotter Selbst, vergebens.**
    --Schiller

  14. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"


    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit


    joseph2k wrote:

    >Just to top things off, there is a Licenced Engineer in the office
    >i work in who does not have a BS degree. Happens to be in California
    >as well, so that the legal rules are the same.


    Exactly so. In the state of California there is no requirement
    that an engineer has a degree or license. A California engineer
    can have a license without a degree, a degree without a license,
    neither, or both.

    The application for starting down the road to becoming a licensed
    professional engineer in California says that the applicant must
    "Complete three years or more of college in a Board approved
    engineering curriculum *or* three years or more of engineering-
    related experience" then "Take and pass the eight-hour National
    Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying (NCEES)
    Fundamentals of Engineering (FE) examination." After that it's all
    experience and exams, with no required formal education.

    What you call yourself depends on your degree or license.
    It would be fraud to call oneself "Professional Engineer",
    "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer", "PE", or "P.E."
    "EIT", etc. without the proper licence. It would be fraud
    to call oneself "BSEE", "PHD", "Degreed", Dr.", etc. without
    the proper degree.

    The applicable California law is:

    Professional Engineers Act
    Business And Professions Code 6700 6799
    Effective January 1, 2007
    Chapter 7. Professional Engineers
    http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/pe_act.pdf

    6704 Defines who may use engineer titles:

    "Only persons licensed under this chapter shall be entitled
    to take and use the titles 'consulting engineer,' 'professional
    engineer,' or 'registered engineer,' or any combination of
    those titles or abbreviations thereof."


    --
    G00G1E F00D: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon
    www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon










    Wikipedia has a good overview with links to authoritative sources.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer


  15. Re: Guy Macon fraudulently using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    In alt.os.linux.slackware joseph2k trolled:

    >Just to top things off, there is a Licenced Engineer in the office
    >i work in who does not have a BS degree. Happens to be in
    >California as well, so that the legal rules are the same.


    Why is he in the office? Shouldn't he be out in the locomotive of
    some train somewhere? And don't train engineers have federal
    licenses?

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  16. Re: Guy Macon misusing terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    In alt.os.linux.slackware Guy Macon trolled:

    >In the state of California there is no requirement that an engineer
    >has a degree or license. A California engineer can have a license
    >without a degree, a degree without a license, neither, or both.


    And you don't have a license or a degree or anything else to qualify
    you as an Engineer except your "I say so." Certainly your work
    history, a list of places where you had a cup of coffee before they
    caught on to you, isn't going to help you.

    You're a fraud. You're a phoney. If you can get a license without
    a degree, then get one. As it stands now, you are an unlicensed,
    uneducated, fraud. You are uninsurable as an "Engineer" and anyone
    who signed you on as such could easily be convicted of criminal
    negligence when some Rube Goldberg contraption you banged together
    collapsed and cost people their lives.

    The fact is, you couldn't pass the exams and that is why you never
    wrote them. And that is why you are not, in any sense of the word,
    an "Engineer" and you are an insult to all those who are.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  17. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    Guy Macon wrote:

    > Exactly so. In the state of California there is no requirement
    > that an engineer has a degree or license. A California engineer
    > can have a license without a degree, a degree without a license,
    > neither, or both.


    If you are talking about an engineer, how the hell could he have both "a
    license without a degree" and a "degree without a license" at the same time?

    Obviously something you'd have to be an engineer to understand, or it
    some sort of laid back, California thing?

    With kind regards

    Chu

  18. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"

    In article <469a016a$0$12807$5a62ac22@per-qv1-newsreader-
    01.iinet.net.au>, ChuMaiFat@nowhere.com.au says...
    > Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    > > Exactly so. In the state of California there is no requirement
    > > that an engineer has a degree or license. A California engineer
    > > can have a license without a degree, a degree without a license,
    > > neither, or both.

    >
    > If you are talking about an engineer, how the hell could he have both "a
    > license without a degree" and a "degree without a license" at the same time?


    Try reading the paragraph again. Two binary variables, "license" and
    "degree":

    Neither = no license and no degree
    Both = licensed and degreed.

    > Obviously something you'd have to be an engineer to understand, or it
    > some sort of laid back, California thing?


    No, just an elementary understanding of English.

    --
    Keith

  19. Re: Guy Macon on using terms such as "Professional Engineer"


    Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8Bit


    ChuMaiFat wrote:
    >
    >Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> Exactly so. In the state of California there is no requirement
    >> that an engineer has a degree or license. A California engineer
    >> can have a license without a degree, a degree without a license,
    >> neither, or both.

    >
    >If you are talking about an engineer, how the hell could he have
    >both "a license without a degree" and a "degree without a license"
    >at the same time?
    >
    >Obviously something you'd have to be an engineer to understand,
    >or it some sort of laid back, California thing?


    Don't forget, I am not only in California, but I work in
    Hollywood and live in "The OC"...

    Please forgive me if this is oversimplified; I don't know you
    or your level of familiarity with the English language, so
    I will try to lay out all the details.

    When a statement in the English language is in the following form:

    "Person X can have attribute A without attribute B, attribute B
    without attribute A, neither, or both"

    The correct parsing is:

    X = (A AND (NOT B)) OR (B AND (NOT A)) OR ((NOT A) AND (NOT B)) OR (A AND B).

    Your incorrect parsing appears to have been

    X = (A AND (NOT B)) AND (B AND (NOT A)) -- Changing the OR to an AND.

    In other words, A and B are independent 1-bit variables,
    and can have any of the following values; 00, 01, 10, 11.

    The following is a direct restatement of your question with
    a different set of independent binary variables. Logically
    it is the same.

    MY STATEMENT (REWRITTEN): An Australian can be blond without
    being female, a female without being blond, neither blond
    nor female, or both blond and female.

    YOUR RESPONSE (REWRITTEN): If you are talking about someone
    living in Australia, how the hell could that person be both
    a "blond without being female" and a "female without being
    blond" at the same time? Obviously something you'd have to
    be from OZ to understand, or it some sort of upside down
    southern hemisphere thing?

    The flaw in your reasoning being that in English a comma
    separated list with "or" between the last two attributes
    ("X has attribute one, two, three or four") does not imply
    that X has attributes one and two at the same time.

    Again, I don't mean to insult you. I simply don't know
    whether you are an accomplished English speaker who simply
    read what I wrote incorrectly or a non-native who needs a
    detailed explanation so as to understand how to correctly
    parse the English language.

    I hope this helps.

    ----------------------------------------------------------

    BACKGROUND INFORMATION:

    In the state of California there is no requirement for any
    degree or license in order to call oneself an "Engineer."

    California employers use the term "Engineer" when referring
    to degreed, non-degreed, licensed, or non-licensed engineers.

    California employers use terms such as "BSEE" to refer to that
    subset of engineers that has a degree.

    California employers use the term "Professional Engineer" or
    "PE" when referring to licensed engineers.

    A California engineer can have:

    A license and a degree,

    A license without a degree,

    A degree without a license,

    No license, no degree.

    What you call yourself depends on your degree or license.

    It would be fraud to call oneself "Professional Engineer",
    "Registered Engineer", "Licensed Engineer", "PE", or "P.E."
    "EIT", etc. without the proper license.

    It would be fraud to call oneself "BSEE", "PHD", "Degreed",
    Dr.", etc. without the proper degree.

    The applicable California law is:

    Professional Engineers Act
    Business And Professions Code sections 6700 6799
    Effective January 1, 2007
    Chapter 7. Professional Engineers
    http://www.dca.ca.gov/pels/pe_act.pdf

    Section 6704 defines who may use various engineer titles:

    "Only persons licensed under this chapter shall be entitled
    to take and use the titles 'consulting engineer,' 'professional
    engineer,' or 'registered engineer,' or any combination of
    those titles or abbreviations thereof."

    Wikipedia has a good overview of the law in various parts
    of the world with links to authoritative sources:
    [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Professional_Engineer ]


    --
    GOOG1E FOOD: Guy Macon guymacon.com Guy Macon
    Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon
    www.guymacon.com Guy Macon Guy Macon guymacon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon www.guymacon.com Guy Macon


  20. Warning to employers about Guy Macon

    Guy Macon wrote:

    > Exactly so. In the state of California there is no requirement
    > that an engineer has a degree or license. A California engineer
    > can have a license without a degree, a degree without a license,
    > neither, or both.


    Mr. Macon has neither the education, nor the recognized
    qualifications necessary to call himself an "Electrical Engineer",
    and those who hire him as an Engineer should know that he is not
    insurable as such and he is legally unable to sign off on jobs as an
    Engineer.

    To the extent that Mr. Macon misrepresents himself, he is a fraud.

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 4 1 2 3 ... LastLast