Re: P.V. comes under fire - Slackware

This is a discussion on Re: P.V. comes under fire - Slackware ; Michael Black wrote: > And it sure isn't clear what the guy is griping about. > > Maybe he thinks SLackware should come out closer together, causing > people to buy something new even if they were happy with what ...

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Thread: Re: P.V. comes under fire

  1. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Michael Black wrote:

    > And it sure isn't clear what the guy is griping about.
    >
    > Maybe he thinks SLackware should come out closer together, causing
    > people to buy something new even if they were happy with what they
    > are using.
    >
    > And he seems to gripe as much about deadbeats as Patrick, which
    > suggests the bit about Patrick is only an afterthought.


    Years ago, they were linuxmafia.org (and still own that name), and feuded
    with Slackware because they couldn't get recognition as "the official
    depository" of slackware packages. At some point, PV must have allowed
    them to sell Slack stuff as "authorized resellers." So, they are selling
    the same Slack stuff that Slackware.com sells, in direct competition with
    Slackware.com. Apparently PV was willing to share that market with them,
    on the theory that they would expand the market. But really, what kind of
    deal could he give them? What could their margin be after paying PV's cost
    and his cut? Sounds like a pretty lame business plan to me. So, it fails,
    and the old animosity comes out. After all, my failure can't be my fault.
    It's the customers, and the supplier, man!

    --
    Old Man

    "Swagger isn't courage." Lee Iacocca

  2. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    On Sun, 08 Jul 2007 19:44:30 -0400, Old Man wrote:

    > Michael Black wrote:
    >
    >> And it sure isn't clear what the guy is griping about.
    >>
    >> Maybe he thinks SLackware should come out closer together, causing
    >> people to buy something new even if they were happy with what they
    >> are using.
    >>
    >> And he seems to gripe as much about deadbeats as Patrick, which
    >> suggests the bit about Patrick is only an afterthought.

    >
    > Years ago, they were linuxmafia.org (and still own that name), and feuded
    > with Slackware because they couldn't get recognition as "the official
    > depository" of slackware packages. At some point, PV must have allowed
    > them to sell Slack stuff as "authorized resellers." So, they are selling
    > the same Slack stuff that Slackware.com sells, in direct competition with
    > Slackware.com. Apparently PV was willing to share that market with them,
    > on the theory that they would expand the market. But really, what kind of
    > deal could he give them? What could their margin be after paying PV's cost
    > and his cut? Sounds like a pretty lame business plan to me. So, it fails,
    > and the old animosity comes out. After all, my failure can't be my fault.
    > It's the customers, and the supplier, man!


    I agree. The reseller can't make a go of his business plan and therefore
    its PV's fault. He shouldn't have given up his day job. what a whiner.


  3. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    King Beowulf wrote:

    > I agree. The reseller can't make a go of his business plan and therefore
    > its PV's fault. He shouldn't have given up his day job. what a whiner.


    It looks to me like one of those posts/emails etc you make in the heat of
    the moment when you should have taken a step back and had a look at what
    have written with a cool head.

    Pete
    --
    http://www.petezilla.co.uk

  4. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Peter Chant (pete@petezilla.co.uk) writes:
    > King Beowulf wrote:
    >
    >> I agree. The reseller can't make a go of his business plan and therefore
    >> its PV's fault. He shouldn't have given up his day job. what a whiner.

    >
    > It looks to me like one of those posts/emails etc you make in the heat of
    > the moment when you should have taken a step back and had a look at what
    > have written with a cool head.
    >

    There's a more recent note up there now, going further into detail,
    though it seems to be missing something.

    Apparently he got email, and he's addressing that. So either people
    did email him about the same things discussed in this thread, or he's
    seen this thread.

    Michael


  5. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    On 2007-07-09, King Beowulf wrote:
    >
    > How would the Slackware community take it if PV would simply close the FTP server and
    > mirrors to only paid subscribers?


    Well, those paid subscribers could easily create a mirror of Pat's
    ftp site, since most of the software is covered by GPL and/or BSD
    licenses. At the very least, since the build scripts are GPL, one could
    take the sources Pat is required to distribute (by the GPL, anyway) and
    rebuild your own packages from those SlackBuilds and redistribute that,
    similar to what CentOS does with RHEL.

    > We are all just a bunch of sponges (excepting of
    > course the fine volunteers who add significant contributions - slackbook,
    > slackbuilds, slacky.eu etc.).


    I'm not sure I agree. If you've ever answered a question accurately
    here, you've helped someone else use Slackware, and that's a
    contribution. A small one, granted, but it helps. Even LQ helps,
    despite their whining (unlike the OP of this thread, who whines
    exclusively).

    --keith

    --
    kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
    see X- headers for PGP signature information


  6. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    notbob wrote:

    > Whatever the real story, here, seems
    > there's plenty of stupidity to go around.


    It's pretty clear that my speculations about the basis for his complaints
    were off base. Mea culpa. However, that does not change the fact that he
    closed the store and blamed it on PV (with no explanation) and his
    customers (deadbeats). There's just no escaping the nature of that first
    post. He clearly "went a little nuts."

    As for his explanation, it might have gone like this: "There was some
    confusion surrounding presales of 11.0. We announced presales at the same
    time as Freebsd.com, as we always had, anticipating official release two
    weeks later. But, the release was delayed for x months. Consequently, we
    had chargebacks and other losses on credit card orders, which we were
    unable to recoup. The economics of the store are such that we could not
    continue. I was wrong to vent as I did in yesterday's post, and I
    apologize to Patrick Volkerding and to former customers of the store."

    Instead, we get:
    "The time from presales to actual release was just unacceptable. Was this
    Pats fault no not really but can still be contributed to him partially."
    (See, I'm a nice, reasonable guy, and I'm going easy on PV)

    "Pat went a little nuts..."
    "He then delayed for months on the release."
    "Knowing Pat this was done to simply show some folks who is boss I am sure."
    (See, PV's a complete dick and this was all clearly his fault.)

    "Could it have been a miss communication between him and them, I guess it
    could have been. Taking into account the release window for 11.0 compared
    to the others and changelog activity I tend to go with my first
    assumption."
    (See, I'm a nice, reasonable guy, and I'm going easy on PV, even though he
    is a complete dick and this is all his fault)

    Now, going back out on that limb:
    Slackware 11.0 was released October 1, 2006. He waited nine months, until
    two days after the release of 12.0, to post this public, unexplained
    complaint about PV. Interesting timing, that, from several angles. Could
    it be that he needed to post that final notice about the store, and it just
    burned him, and he lost it and vented? I guess that could be, but taking
    into account the weird timing and the continued attacks on PV, I tend to go
    with my first assumption.

    I guess I'll have to take his word that he ran the store strictly as a
    community service, with no expectation of profit. He's not just
    blameless. He's pure of heart, and no doubt has the strength of ten.

    --
    Old Man

    "Swagger isn't courage." Lee Iacocca

  7. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:08:35 -0600, King Beowulf wrote:

    > How would the Slackware community take it if PV would simply close the
    > FTP
    > server and mirrors to only paid subscribers? Hell, its his software and
    > he can do what he wants with it. I know of no other serious distro that
    > has been alive this long through sickness and the other ups and downs of
    > daily life. I couldn't do it. Could you?


    By coincidence I was going through chemotherapy when Pat was sick. Now
    he doesn't know me from Adam other than I've used the same name, Ron
    Gibson, on USENET and before that on FIDO.

    But yet he sent me an email wishing me a speedy recovery. Despite being
    sick, and you can get so sick that even sitting up typing is a
    Herculean task, he took time out for that act of kindness.

    Sounds to me like he's a pretty good guy with some broad shoulders.

    > So yeah, I call "Whiner" on anyone who complains about PV release
    > schedules and delays costing them business.


    And I agree. Pat's model has been a success from the beginning. Who are
    they to try and dictate change. Sounds like whimpering to me and you
    know what they say...

    "If you can't run with the big dogs then you should stay on the porch".

    --
    Linux Help: http://rsgibson.com/linux.htm
    Email - rsgibson@verizon.borg
    Replace borg with net


  8. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    On 2007-07-09, Old Man wrote:

    > I guess I'll have to take his word that he ran the store strictly as a
    > community service, with no expectation of profit. He's not just
    > blameless. He's pure of heart, and no doubt has the strength of ten.


    Don't get me wrong. I'm not trying to justify JS's little tirade. It
    was uncalled for, to be sure. But, he took it on the Slack Store's
    word that 11's release was imminent. Who's fault is that? His for
    being too trusting or the Store's for taking PV's timeline for
    granted. It's a no win situation and everyone got tumbled. Everyone
    except the faithful who know from long experience that "It'll be ready
    when it's ready". That's why I wonder about his claim he knows PV so
    well. Apparently not. As for all those who got tumbled by Pat's
    delay, to damn bad. That'll teach 'em not to expect pre-releases.
    Besides, it could've been worse. It could've been Vista!

    nb

  9. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:59:20 -0500, notbob wrote:

    > 11's release was imminent. Who's fault is that? His for being too
    > trusting or the Store's for taking PV's timeline for granted. It's a
    > no win situation and everyone got tumbled. Everyone except the
    > faithful who know from long experience that "It'll be ready when it's
    > ready".


    Unlike the crap that gets released by Mandrivia, et al, that immediately
    requires 4-500MB of patches and updates and it still runs like sh*t.

    I have never had a problem with Pat's release dates. He waits until he
    gets all the niggles out and if he misses one big deal. The way he
    sticks to open standards makes it extremely easy to simply fix it
    yourself. Good grief I'm a complete C and C++ programing moron and if I
    can do it anyone can. But the key here is the structure of Slackware is
    such that it can be done unlike the shenanigans others distros pull to
    put road blocks up.

    Anyway I've ranted enough too. I just finished burning my 12 DVD and am
    gonna do a test install on a removable HD.

    Later...

    --
    Linux Help: http://rsgibson.com/linux.htm
    Email - rsgibson@verizon.borg
    Replace borg with net


  10. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Ron Gibson trolled:
    >On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:08:35 -0600, King Beowulf wrote:
    >
    >> How would the Slackware community take it if PV would simply
    >> close the FTP server and mirrors to only paid subscribers? Hell,
    >> its his software and he can do what he wants with it. I know of
    >> no other serious distro that has been alive this long through
    >> sickness and the other ups and downs of daily life. I couldn't
    >> do it. Could you?


    >By coincidence I was going through chemotherapy when Pat was sick.
    >Now he doesn't know me from Adam other than I've used the same
    >name, Ron Gibson, on USENET and before that on FIDO. But yet he
    >sent me an email wishing me a speedy recovery. Despite being sick,
    >and you can get so sick that even sitting up typing is a Herculean
    >task, he took time out for that act of kindness.


    And if we had sent you the same email, would you have interpreted
    that as an act of kindness? Tell us when the five years are up and
    we'll send you a congrats.

    >Sounds to me like he's a pretty good guy with some broad shoulders.


    Sounds to us like he sent you an email.

    >> So yeah, I call "Whiner" on anyone who complains about PV release
    >> schedules and delays costing them business.


    The man went out of the slackware business, and apparently through
    no fault of his own. Of course we want to know why because we don't
    want to make the same mistake. If PV disputes the man's charges,
    then he has all kinds of places, including here, where he can do it.
    But apparently he doesn't have to defend himself because you people,
    who are not in possession of the facts, are unanimous in your
    support.

    Pathetic.

    >And I agree. Pat's model has been a success from the beginning. Who
    >are they to try and dictate change. Sounds like whimpering to me
    >and you know what they say...


    No, Gill Gates model has been a success from the beginning. Why
    aren't you bowing and scraping before him?

    >"If you can't run with the big dogs then you should stay on the
    >porch".


    Slackware is a "big dog?" Linux itself isn't even a big dog.

    Pathetic.

    cordially, as always,

    rm
    --
    .... the only things that separates (slackware) from others are the
    things it lacks... not has. -- ANC

  11. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Ron Gibson trolled:
    >On Mon, 09 Jul 2007 14:59:20 -0500, notbob wrote:


    >> 11's release was imminent. Who's fault is that? His for being
    >> too trusting or the Store's for taking PV's timeline for granted.
    >> It's a no win situation and everyone got tumbled. Everyone
    >> except the faithful who know from long experience that "It'll be
    >> ready when it's ready".


    >Unlike the crap that gets released by Mandrivia, et al, that
    >immediately requires 4-500MB of patches and updates and it still
    >runs like sh*t.


    The quality of PV's product is not the issue. It's the quality of
    his service that is being questioned here. Now, some of you will
    say that he doesn't care about service to his customers, and you
    will somehow convince yourselves, if not others, that this is a good
    thing. But it's not a good thing. Meeting a deadline is a point of
    honour in the real world. Apologizing when you miss the deadline is
    also a point of honour.

    >I have never had a problem with Pat's release dates. He waits until
    >he gets all the niggles out and if he misses one big deal. The way
    >he sticks to open standards makes it extremely easy to simply fix
    >it yourself. Good grief I'm a complete C and C++ programing moron
    >and if I


    But that's not the way people operate who care about their
    customers. If one was, for instance, buying a brand new computer,
    and he was waiting for the latest version, and he had pre-paid for a
    copy of slack 12.0, what is he supposed to do? Sit on his hands?
    Install 11.0 and then re-install 12.0? Try another distribution?

    cordially, as always,

    rm
    >can do it anyone can. But the key here is the structure of Slackware is
    >such that it can be done unlike the shenanigans others distros pull to
    >put road blocks up.


    >Anyway I've ranted enough too. I just finished burning my 12 DVD and am
    >gonna do a test install on a removable HD.


    >Later...



    --
    .... the only things that separates (slackware) from others are the
    things it lacks... not has. -- ANC

  12. Re: P.V. comes under fire

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    On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Ron Gibson wrote:

    >> So yeah, I call "Whiner" on anyone who complains about PV release
    >> schedules and delays costing them business.


    > And I agree. Pat's model has been a success from the beginning. Who are
    > they to try and dictate change. Sounds like whimpering to me and you
    > know what they say...
    >
    > "If you can't run with the big dogs then you should stay on the porch".


    Here here, well said.

    If they are not happy, maybe they can go to fedora, and every week do 100
    megs of upgrades, and then 13 months later have NO support, Pat still
    supports versions from 5 or so years ago last time I saw, and to get
    that support off other linux distros, you PAY *serious* bucks for their
    EL, and in my opinion Slackware is better than their EL/ES's, this
    includes RHEL/S, SuSE, and by very far their free cousins and others like
    Debian and its variations and Gentoo as well and so on and so on.


    We host local (unofficial) mirrors for our customers of Fedora and
    Slackware, Fedora 7 was released, what, 6 weeks ago?

    ~# ls -la fedora/updates/7/i386/ > A
    ~# cat A | grep -c .rpm
    1507

    ^^^^ *laughs*
    (this is what happens when you butcher original code, unlike our great
    Slack that I've always found stays true to source 99.9r% of the time.)


    --
    Cheers
    Res
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  13. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Res trolled:

    pgp trash troll delete

    >On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Ron Gibson wrote:


    >> "If you can't run with the big dogs then you should stay on the
    >> porch".


    >Here here, well said.


    Slackware is a "big dog" in your books?

    >If they are not happy, maybe they can go to fedora, and every week
    >do 100 megs of upgrades, and then 13 months later have NO support,
    >Pat still supports versions from 5 or so years ago last time I saw,
    >and to get that support off other linux distros, you PAY *serious*
    >bucks for their EL, and in my opinion Slackware is better than
    >their EL/ES's, this includes RHEL/S, SuSE, and by very far their
    >free cousins and others like Debian and its variations and Gentoo
    >as well and so on and so on.


    What on earth does any of this stuff have to do with whether "The
    Man" treated other slackware enthusiasts and contributors badly?

    Are you saying that PV can tell everyone that if they don't like
    how he treats them that they can go **** themselves?

    Ah, of course you are. After all, you include pgp trash in your
    messages, even though you could easily put it in your headers, and
    if folks don't like it, they can go **** themselves, right?

    _You_ are the enemy of slackware.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  14. Re: P.V. comes under fire

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    On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Old Man wrote:

    >> PV can easily respond with his side of
    >> the story. That is what debate in a free country is all about.
    >> Probably the truth can be found in between their versions.

    >
    > That would be about as useful as this discussion ...


    Agreed, Pats been around long enough to know never to feed the trolls



    --
    Cheers
    Res
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  15. Re: P.V. comes under fire

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    Dear Roger,

    Hows the sex? obviously not getting any if your on usenet in the night (
    its mid morning here thats my excuse), wheres your boyfriend? off sleeping
    with your dad? oops did they find out who your dad was did they? congrats
    on that, i bet he still disowns you


    On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Realto wrote:


    --
    Cheers
    Res
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    =rFxn
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  16. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Res wrote:

    > -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    > Hash: SHA1
    > NotDashEscaped: You need GnuPG to verify this message
    >
    > On Mon, 9 Jul 2007, Old Man wrote:
    >
    >> That would be about as useful as this discussion ...

    >
    > Agreed, Pats been around long enough to know never to feed the trolls
    >

    So have I. Unfortunately, knowing better and doing better are different,
    and that's one difference between PV and me.

    --
    Old Man

    "Swagger isn't courage." Lee Iacocca

  17. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Realto wrote:

    > In any case, the last thing we would do is disrespect ourself by
    > jumping to somebody's defense over questions of character, simply
    > because we like his software.
    >
    > Show us that you have some self-respect.


    So, one of you is a Jewish mother?

    Be sure to get that message to your sister, now.

    --
    Old Man

    "Swagger isn't courage." Lee Iacocca

  18. Re: P.V. comes under fire




    Ron Gibson wrote:

    >I have never had a problem with Pat's release dates.
    >He waits until he gets all the niggles out and if he
    >misses one big deal.


    With certain other sofware, I know to ignore new releases
    until the bugfixes that always follow appear. With Slackware,
    I probably wait the same amount of time or less; it's just the
    half-baked release that is missing. And even if for some
    reason I really want my software half-baked, I can download
    a partially finished version of the next release any time I
    choose.

    --
    Guy Macon



  19. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    I've been reading this thread with interest, because commiting to Slackware
    is a huge investment in time and energy. It may make sense, as it's the only
    distro I'd ever take the time to really learn.

    The rantings of some that had a problem with the release date, doesn't
    bother me at all, even though I "was' in the situation of having a new
    computer and waiting for 12 to arrive. That's not PV's fault and should not
    enter into his decision tree at all, for anyone. I could have just bought
    Vista, right??")

    Anyway, what "may" get my attention is that this distro is the work on one
    man and he alone controls it. How do you reconcile that with what may happen
    in the future? Is there a "fallback scenario" that I'm not aware of for
    anyone?

    In plain English, if PV decides to take a long vacation, am I screwed?





  20. Re: P.V. comes under fire

    Travis McGee trolled:

    >I've been reading this thread with interest, because commiting to
    >Slackware is a huge investment in time and energy. It may make
    >sense, as it's the only distro I'd ever take the time to really
    >learn.


    >The rantings of some that had a problem with the release date,


    To what "rantings" are you referring? We have heard all kinds of
    name-calling from the other side, but certainly no ranting from
    those who are legitimately concerned about the charges made against
    PV.

    >doesn't bother me at all, even though I "was' in the situation of
    >having a new computer and waiting for 12 to arrive. That's not PV's
    >fault and should not enter into his decision tree at all, for
    >anyone. I could have just bought Vista, right??")


    But how do you know that the delay wasn't PV's fault? The
    linuxpackages guy (we should look up his name) stated specifically
    that it was his fault and he implied that it was done out of spite
    or just to show who is "boss." If you are sitting around waiting
    for 12.0 to come out and you heard that it was held up for months
    out of spite, wouldn't you have some questions you would want
    answered? Wouldn't you question whether and why your time was
    wasted?

    >Anyway, what "may" get my attention is that this distro is the work
    >on one man and he alone controls it. How do you reconcile that with
    >what may happen in the future? Is there a "fallback scenario" that
    >I'm not aware of for anyone?


    >In plain English, if PV decides to take a long vacation, am I
    >screwed?


    Probably. There would be a huge fight for control. We saw a bit of
    it happen when PV got sick a few years ago. All kinds of trash were
    horning in, trying to claim "official" status, from which they would
    try to launch a "legitimate" takeover if the situation came to that.

    It's all there in the aols archives. Just do a search for "Alan
    Hicks official status"

    cordially, as always,

    rm

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