Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News - Slackware

This is a discussion on Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News - Slackware ; Eef Hartman wrote: >In news (UseNet is not the right term, it is the NETwork "news conferences" were first developed IN) -------------------------------------------------------- From Wikipedia: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet ] Usenet is a set of protocols for generating, storing and retrieving news "articles" ...

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  1. Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News




    Eef Hartman wrote:

    >In news (UseNet is not the right term, it is the NETwork

    "news conferences" were first developed IN)

    --------------------------------------------------------

    From Wikipedia: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet ]

    Usenet is a set of protocols for generating, storing and retrieving
    news "articles" (which resemble Internet mail messages) and for
    exchanging them among a readership which is potentially widely
    distributed. These protocols most commonly use a flooding
    algorithm which propagates copies throughout a network of
    participating servers.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    From RFC 977:
    [ http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc977/rfc977 ]

    (Note usage of the terms "News" and "USENET.")

    Network News Transfer Protocol

    A Proposed Standard for the Stream-Based Transmission of News):

    1. Introduction

    For many years, the ARPA-Internet community has supported the
    distribution of bulletins, information, and data in a timely fashion
    to thousands of participants. We collectively refer to such items of
    information as "news". Such news provides for the rapid
    dissemination of items of interest such as software bug fixes, new
    product reviews, technical tips, and programming pointers, as well as
    rapid-fire discussions of matters of concern to the working computer
    professional. News is very popular among its readers.

    There are popularly two methods of distributing such news: the
    Internet method of direct mailing, and the USENET news system.

    1.1. Internet Mailing Lists

    The Internet community distributes news by the use of mailing lists.
    These are lists of subscriber's mailbox addresses and remailing
    sublists of all intended recipients. These mailing lists operate by
    remailing a copy of the information to be distributed to each
    subscriber on the mailing list. Such remailing is inefficient when a
    mailing list grows beyond a dozen or so people, since sending a
    separate copy to each of the subscribers occupies large quantities of
    network bandwidth, CPU resources, and significant amounts of disk
    storage at the destination host. There is also a significant problem
    in maintenance of the list itself: as subscribers move from one job
    to another; as new subscribers join and old ones leave; and as hosts
    come in and out of service.

    1.2. The USENET News System

    Clearly, a worthwhile reduction of the amount of these resources used
    can be achieved if articles are stored in a central database on the
    receiving host instead of in each subscriber's mailbox. The USENET
    news system provides a method of doing just this. There is a central
    repository of the news articles in one place (customarily a spool
    directory of some sort), and a set of programs that allow a
    subscriber to select those items he wishes to read. Indexing,
    cross-referencing, and expiration of aged messages are also provided.

    --------------------------------------------------------

    From an interview with Tom Truscott, one Usenet's creators:
    [ http://www.ais.org/~jrh/acn/text/acn.../acn8-1.01.txt ]

    Can you say what it was that led you or you and Jim Ellis
    to conceive of Usenet?

    Tom: Well, here is some text I wrote about that a few months ago:

    I think there was a confluence of things in fall 1979 that
    brought it about.

    1. Jim had installed the latest UNIX (Version 7) which broke
    many old programs including a public domain "news" program that
    had been sent out on one of the early UNIX User Group tapes. (In
    summer 1979 the user group was renamed USENIX to avoid trademark
    problems.) [It was earlier than that, but the first new meeting
    was summer 1979] I don't think the program was called "news"
    (perhaps it was called "items"). I think it allowed items to be
    entered under one of several "categories". It had a number of
    problems (including a 512 byte limit per item), so we were
    thinking about writing a completely new program. Then we could
    contribute it to the next user group tape and hopefully achieve
    some minor level of fame.

    2. I had worked for Ken Thompson at Bell Labs in the summer of
    1979 and was in UNIX heaven the whole time. I also attended the
    summer 1979 USENIX conference in Toronto. Returning to Duke in
    the fall meant the end of that. Our only connection with the
    outside UNIX world was the user group newsletter ;Login:, but we
    had not seen one in a while. It was published on an erratic
    schedule by a professor [Mel Ferentz] who had a lot of other
    demands on his time. We were quite nervous that should anything
    happen to him this tenuous connection would be lost entirely.

    3. UNIX (Version 7) came with UUCP. This complex (for its day)
    program made it easy to send e-mail and files to other UNIX
    (Version 7) sites over phone lines provided that one end had an
    auto-dialing telephone and modem and the other an auto-answering
    telephone and modem. The Duke Computer Science PDP 11/70 had
    both." (We built the auto-dialers ourselves. An interesting story...)

    We were using UUCP to contact two other UNIX machines at Duke and
    also one at U.N.C.-Chapel Hill. So one night Jim and I had a
    rambling conversation about these things and the idea behind
    Usenet just popped out.

    We held a few meetings to figure out the details. Two other
    local UNIX enthusiasts also attended: Dennis Rockwell from Duke
    and Steven Bellovin from UNC. We decided on the transfer format
    (what an article would look like on the wire) and on the basic
    functionality of the software. Steven Bellovin implemented this
    stuff with shell scripts as proof of concept. It was impressively
    slow, but it worked!

    We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    but it wasn't due to carelessness. One thing we didn't decide
    on was the name of the network. I think early on Jim coined
    "Usenet", but our first announcement did not use that (or any
    other) name.

    An energetic new Duke graduate student,Stephen Daniel, also
    turned out to be a UNIX enthusiast. He created the dotted
    newsgroup structure that we know and love today, and wrote the
    first production version of news ("A-news").

    --------------------------------------------------------


    From the Usenet Binaries Dot Com Usenet History:
    [ www.usenetbinaries.com/doc/Usenet_History.html ]
    Also see: [ http://www.livinginternet.com/u/ui_netnews.htm }

    Usenet History

    Prior to the migration of networked computers to the Internet, UNIX
    computers communicated over various network protocols. One of these,
    UUCP program and protocol (Unix to Unix Copy Protocol), was used.
    During its era, UUCP spawned an application service known as Usenet.

    Usenet was originally designed by Duke University Computer Science
    graduate students Tom Truscott (interesting interview here) and Jim
    Ellis. The first program was authored by Steve Bellovin, a Computer
    Science graduate at the University of North Carolina. Their original
    goal was to create features available over UUCP for universities
    which were not yet connected to ARPANET (the early Internet) such
    as mail and file transfer and announcements.

    On June 28th, 2001, Jim Ellis died of non-Hodgkins lymphoma at
    his home in Pennsylvania at age 45.

    After attending a meeting where Truscott and Ellis discussed their
    ideas, Bellovin wrote the first version. It was comprised of 3
    pages of UNIX Bourne shell scripting language. The application
    was designed to move files over the UUCP protocol between two
    computers over an modem telephone connection. The program was
    called "Netnews".

    This early version, which was later rewritten in the C programming
    language, simply checked files within directories for their last-
    updated timestamp, and copied newer files if available. Connected
    systems included Duke University and the University of North
    Carolina. The Duke University Medical Center Department of Physiology
    was added in 1980.

    In January 1980, Truscott and Ellis presented the Netnews idea to
    the USENIX conference in Boulder, Colorado. Truscott employed
    fellow Duke graduate student Steve Daniel to rewrite a newer
    version which was dubbed "Netnews Version A" (aka "A News").

    As freely available public domain software with great usefulness,
    Netnews spread quickly throughout the UNIX/university world.

    It is unclear when "Usenet" replaced the name "Netnews", but the
    relevance of Usenet over UUCP caused the two terms to often be
    used interchangeably (incorrectly). In 1982 a USENIX vote resulted
    in Usenet (the news service) keeping its name, but the UUCP network
    being renamed to UUCPNET.

    This may explain why the term "Usenet" is a fairly ambiguous
    description of what is now a rather narrowly-defined Internet
    service. The "World Wide Web" and "Email", by contrast, are more
    descriptive. This is probably one reason why the Usenet retained
    a fairly under-the-radar following compared to these services as
    the Internet exploded in popularity in the mid nineties.

    In 1982, Matt Glickman and Mark Horton authored Netnews Version
    B (aka "B News") in order to deal with increasing traffic loads.
    In 1984, Rick Adams at the Center for Seismic Studies took over
    maintenance of Version B.

    In 1985, the Network News Transfer Protocol allowed Usenet
    traffic to be routed natively over TCP/IP rather then bootstrapped
    from UUCP, and today of course the majority of Usenet traffic is
    originated and distributed over the Internet.

    Henry Spencer and Geoff Collyer at the University of Toronto
    took over in 1989 to write Netnews Version C for Netnews
    ("C News") to obtain even greater efficiency.

    In the early 90's InterNetNews (INN) was developed to take
    greater advantage of the Usenet's continuous flow of messages
    made possible via NNTP vs the "store and forward" methods
    in use at that time.

    References:

    Bill Stuart's Living Internet http://www.livinginternet.com/u/ui_netnews.htm
    Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet
    The Register http://www.theregister.co.uk/2001/06..._creator_dead/
    Rick Adams http://www.answers.com/topic/rick-adams

    --------------------------------------------------------



    --
    G o o o o o o o g l e F o o o o d: Guy Macon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon
    Guy Macon Guy Macon


  2. Re: Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News

    Macon Bacon Phat Phuck trolled:
    > Eef Hartman wrote:


    >>In news (UseNet is not the right term, it is the NETwork

    > "news conferences" were first developed IN)


    > --------------------------------------------------------
    > From Wikipedia: [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usenet ]


    > Usenet is a set of protocols for generating, storing and retrieving
    > news "articles" (which resemble Internet mail messages) and for
    > exchanging them among a readership which is potentially widely
    > distributed. These protocols most commonly use a flooding
    > algorithm which propagates copies throughout a network of
    > participating servers.


    Oh, well, if Wiki says so, then that settles it. Why don't you give
    us Wiki's definition of Wikipedia, while you're at it, lard ass?

    > From RFC 977:
    > [ http://www.w3.org/Protocols/rfc977/rfc977 ]


    Which hemorrhoid treatment do you feel has helped you the most?
    Hemorrhoidolysis/Galvanic Electrotherapy, Rubber Band ligation, or
    the tried and true Preparation H or Anusol topicals?

    > (Note usage of the terms "News" and "USENET.")


    > Network News Transfer Protocol


    > A Proposed Standard for the Stream-Based Transmission of News):


    This was written in 1986, precious.

    Have a nice day!

    http://www.guymacon.com

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  3. Re: Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News

    Guy Macon wrote:

    > We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    > chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    > the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    > but it wasn't due to carelessness.


    It was before the PC, but was it really before FIDO bulletin boards? I
    remember participating in those at least by the early '80s, using a CP/M
    system. And they seemed to be well established by that time.

    --
    It's turtles, all the way down.

  4. Re: Guy Macon is wrong, yet again

    Larry Blanchard trolled:
    > Guy Macon wrote:


    >> We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    >> chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    >> the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    >> but it wasn't due to carelessness.


    > It was before the PC, but was it really before FIDO bulletin
    > boards? I remember participating in those at least by the early
    > '80s, using a CP/M system. And they seemed to be well established
    > by that time.


    We used to access newsgroups through a bbs on our Apple II+, with a
    110 baud acoustic cupler, in particular, Canada Remote Systems and
    Rose Media (both in Toronto). They had several news systems hooked
    up, one of which was Fido, we believe.

    We were also hooked up with Compuserve at that time, but we don't
    remember them as having any newsgroups outside of their own.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  5. Re: Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News

    Larry Blanchard (lblanch@fastmail.fm) writes:
    > Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    >> chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    >> the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    >> but it wasn't due to carelessness.

    >
    > It was before the PC, but was it really before FIDO bulletin boards? I
    > remember participating in those at least by the early '80s, using a CP/M
    > system. And they seemed to be well established by that time.
    >

    IN 1978, there was a three part series in Byte about networking small
    computers over the phone line. It's been a long time since I read
    the articles so I can't remember what was envisioned. It's never
    been clear to me whether the articles influenced anything, or ended
    up as a dead end. Though I didn't notice it at the time of the articles,
    it would have been the first time I saw mention of Arpanet.

    In one of the issues the series ran in, there was an article by Randy
    Suess and Ward Christenson (I'm sure I spelled that wrong) about their
    computer bulletin board system, one computer no networking and maybe
    even just one phone line. I was always under the impression that they
    originated the term "bulletin board", though it's not alwys clear.

    Of course, this wasn't the first "computer networking" for the average
    person, though it had to be the first time running on a small computer.

    Computer Memory in Berkeley about 1973 had a public access terminal or
    two, and while it was all pretty primitive, it was out there really early.
    I've seen it referred to as a "bulletin board" but that's in books written
    after the fact, so it's not clear if they called it such at the time,
    or the term just fits after the fact.

    Usenet started up in 1979, they were aware of Arpanet but had no
    access so they used phone lines to pass the messages. I've seen no
    indication that they were influenced by that three part series in Byte,
    though it seems a tad odd that they wouldn't have seen it.

    Fidonet came about 1983 or 84. It's been awhile since I read that
    history, but my recollection is that they started networking the BBSs
    for email, and the "echos" were added later. Again, I've seen nothing
    that indicates they were influenced by the three part article in Byte,
    or even by Usenet, but it also seems odd that they wouldn't have been
    aware of such things.

    Michael




  6. Re: Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News




    Larry Blanchard wrote:

    >Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    >> chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    >> the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    >> but it wasn't due to carelessness.

    >
    >It was before the PC, but was it really before FIDO bulletin boards? I
    >remember participating in those at least by the early '80s, using a CP/M
    >system. And they seemed to be well established by that time.


    You snipped out a vital bit of information. Your post should
    have looked like this:

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    >Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >>From an interview with Tom Truscott, one Usenet's creators:
    >>[ http://www.ais.org/~jrh/acn/text/acn.../acn8-1.01.txt ]

    >...
    >> We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    >> chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    >> the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    >> but it wasn't due to carelessness.

    >
    >It was before the PC, but was it really before FIDO bulletin boards? I
    >remember participating in those at least by the early '80s, using a CP/M
    >system. And they seemed to be well established by that time.


    You are disagreeing with Tom Truscott, not with me. I would not
    have written that, having been a Sysop of a Commodore C64 BBS.
    I would have said that USENET is older than web-based forums
    and before PCB based BBS systems. I can't very well go around
    editing direct quoutes because I disagree with them, though.

    The point remains that "USENET" and "News" are two different things.

    --
    Guy Macon






  7. Re: Guy Macon on telling the difference between Usenet and News

    Larry Blanchard wrote:
    >Guy Macon wrote:
    >
    >> We also decided on terminology such as "newsgroups". We probably
    >> chose that due to the newsletter analogy. This was long before
    >> the PC and "bulletin boards". We may have chosen incorrectly
    >> but it wasn't due to carelessness.

    >
    >It was before the PC, but was it really before FIDO bulletin boards? I


    The PC of course was before FIDO, which was an MS-DOS/PC
    based system from the start (1983).

    >remember participating in those at least by the early '80s, using a CP/M
    >system. And they seemed to be well established by that time.


    The first "bulletin board" actually did precede Usenet,
    by nearly two years. In early 1978 CBBS, a CP/M based
    system was the first bulletin board (compliments of
    Randy Suess and Ward Christainson in Chicago). Usenet
    appeared in late 1979. Note that Usenet did exist
    before widespread use of bulletin boards existed. And
    in fact Usenet was always significantly more advanced in
    virtually every way than FidoNet or bulletin boards in
    general.

    However, the actual alternative to a CP/M or MS-DOS
    based bulletin board was not Usenet, but free access
    unix systems. There were a few available, but the idea
    did not catch on, probably because the least expensive
    UNIX system into the late 80's was rather expensive,
    hence it and was probably totally unknown to most
    computer enthusiast. Randy Suess of CBBS fame by the
    middle '80s had an AT&T 3B2 system on line, known as
    "chinet" with dialup lines and free logins available.
    AT&T operated a system known as "killer" from Texas, and
    in Joliet Indiana Rich Andrews had Jolnet online. There
    were others that allowed anonymous ftp logins, but those
    mentioned all had free shell accounts.

    --
    Floyd L. Davidson
    Ukpeagvik (Barrow, Alaska) floyd@apaflo.com

  8. Re: Guy Macon has no education

    Guy Macon trolled:

    > You snipped out a vital bit of information. Your post should
    > have looked like this:


    The notion that you are telling others what to post is totally
    laughable.

    > You are disagreeing with Tom Truscott, not with me. I would not


    It's _your_ name that _you_ inserted in the subject line, not Tom
    Truscott's, you egomaniac. What kind of person inserts his own name
    in a Usenet subject line?

    > The point remains that "USENET" and "News" are two different
    > things.


    Maybe at one time. But not anymore. Times change and the meanings
    of words evolve with the times. You haven't been able to keep up,
    probably because of your lack of formal education.

    You have no education and it shows.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

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