Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups - Slackware

This is a discussion on Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups - Slackware ; I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to get it working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to in order to get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail? ...

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Thread: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

  1. Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to get
    it
    working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to in order to
    get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail?
    Currently mike belongs to users, adm, floppy, audio, video, cdrom and
    mail and still gets this error:
    mike@slak11:~> fetchmail -v
    fetchmail: couldn't find canonical DNS name of pop3.nethere.net
    (pop3.nethere.net)
    Thanks,
    Mike


  2. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Mike wrote:

    > I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to
    > get it working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to
    > in order to get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail?


    If you are going to use your ISP's pop3 for incoming mail then you
    should also use their smtp server for outgoing mail. You don't need
    sendmail and that will just make things difficult for you. You
    should look at the docs for your email client, such as elm, pine,
    mutt, etc., for directions as to how to define your ISP's SMTP and
    POP3 servers.

    Sendmail is good if you have your own domain name and it is
    correctly setup with nameservers, and you have more than one user.
    It's not worth the hassle, otherwise. But there is a very good
    howto called /usr/doc/Linux-HOWTOs/Sendmail*Rewrite which will
    explain to you how to set things up with aliases and such if you
    want to use sendmail and you have your own domain name.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  3. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Mike wrote:

    > I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to get
    > it working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to in order
    > to get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail?


    I don't think your problem is one of group membership:

    > mike@slak11:~> fetchmail -v
    > fetchmail: couldn't find canonical DNS name of pop3.nethere.net
    > (pop3.nethere.net)


    Can user "mike" read /etc/resolv.conf? Can he ping pop3.nethere.net?
    Does the system have network access when Mike tries to read mail? I'm
    suspecting that /etc/resolv.conf isn't readable, but I'd be curious to
    know if you find the cause of the problem elsewhere.

    I hope I've helped.

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Systems and Network analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  4. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

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    On Fri, 15 Jun 2007, Mike wrote:

    > I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to get
    > it
    > working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to in order to
    > get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail?



    getting and sending are two entirely separate things
    you should be able to do both as any user, so long as sendmail is setup to
    relay for your IP.

    > mike@slak11:~> fetchmail -v
    > fetchmail: couldn't find canonical DNS name of pop3.nethere.net
    > (pop3.nethere.net)


    as 'mike' what happens when you type host pop3.nethere.net?
    what happens when you telnet to it on port 110 ?

    ~$ telnet pop3.nethere.net 110
    Trying 66.63.128.171...
    Connected to 66.63.128.171.
    Escape character is '^]'.
    +OK POP3 ready.

    Seems fine from over here....

    try fetchmail -v -v -v
    Are you using command line or a .fetchmailrc file ?

    Check your formating
    fetchmail -v pop3.nethere.net -p pop3 -u mike



    --
    Cheers
    Res
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  5. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    On Jun 15, 11:10 pm, Sylvain Robitaille
    wrote:
    > Mike wrote:
    > > I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to get
    > > it working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to in order
    > > to get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail?

    >
    > I don't think your problem is one of group membership:
    >

    Thanks to your tips Sylvain, I've now got fetchmail working for mike
    but am still
    having troubles with sendmail.
    mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -qSroot
    You do not have permission to process the queue
    Thoughts?
    Thanks again,
    Mike


  6. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    On 2007-06-16, Mike wrote:
    > On Jun 15, 11:10 pm, Sylvain Robitaille
    > wrote:
    >> Mike wrote:
    >> > I can get mail from my ISPs pop3 server as root but can't seem to get
    >> > it working as user mike. What groups should mike to belong to in order
    >> > to get mail using fetchmail and send it using sendmail?

    >>
    >> I don't think your problem is one of group membership:
    >>

    > Thanks to your tips Sylvain, I've now got fetchmail working for mike
    > but am still
    > having troubles with sendmail.
    > mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -qSroot
    > You do not have permission to process the queue
    > Thoughts?


    Ummm... have you considered running that command as root? Or are you
    trying to avoid doing that for some reason?

    If you have sendmail running in the background, it should periodically
    run the queue. Do you not have it running, or is it that you want to
    make sure the mail is sent while you are on-line for a short amount of
    time?


    Jim

  7. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    On Jun 16, 3:04 pm, Jim Diamond wrote:
    > On 2007-06-16, Mike wrote:
    >
    > > mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -qSroot
    > > You do not have permission to process the queue
    > > Thoughts?

    >
    > Ummm... have you considered running that command as root? Or are you
    > trying to avoid doing that for some reason?


    Yes that's what I do now but am trying to get setup so mike can send/
    fetch mail.
    Do you send mail as root?

    > If you have sendmail running in the background, it should periodically
    > run the queue. Do you not have it running, or is it that you want to
    > make sure the mail is sent while you are on-line for a short amount of
    > time?


    The latter, If I just grab mail and the stock market reports, often
    the mail doesn't go out unless force.
    Thanks,
    Mike



  8. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    On Jun 15, 11:10 pm, Sylvain Robitaille
    wrote:
    > Does the system have network access when Mike tries to read mail? I'm
    > suspecting that /etc/resolv.conf isn't readable, but I'd be curious to
    > know if you find the cause of the problem elsewhere.
    >

    I had connected as root then tried to fetch/send mail as mike when I
    first noticed the problem.
    These are what I've done, the groups changes may have been excessive.

    root@slak11:~> chmod 660 /etc/resolv.conf /etc/ppp/{options,pppscript}
    root@slak11:~> chown root:adm /etc/ppp/{pppscript,options} /etc/
    resolv.conf
    root@slak11:~> chmod u+s /usr/sbin/pppd
    root@slak11:~> usermod -G
    users,adm,floppy,mail,audio,video,cdrom,pop,smmsp mike

    As mentioned elsewhere, mike still can'e send mail.

    mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -q
    You do not have permission to process the queue

    Thanks for your help,
    Mike


  9. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Mike wrote:
    > On Jun 16, 3:04 pm, Jim Diamond wrote:


    >> Ummm... have you considered running that command as root? Or are
    >> you trying to avoid doing that for some reason?


    > Yes that's what I do now but am trying to get setup so mike can
    > send/ fetch mail. Do you send mail as root?


    Sendmail is launched only once, at system startup. And that single
    instance of sendmail will handle _all_ users' outgoing emails. You
    don't invoke sendmail each time you want to send a single piece of
    mail. And individual users don't need to invoke sendmail.

    And it doesn't work like fetchmail. Sendmail isn't the outgoing
    equivalent of fetchmail. Sendmail both sends and receives email.

    If you are using fetchmail and the pop3 protocol to retrieve email
    from your isp then you should probably be sending your email
    directly to the isp's smtp email server. Depending on which client
    you are using, sendmail is not even necessary to do this.

    Which client are you using?

    >> If you have sendmail running in the background, it should
    >> periodically run the queue. Do you not have it running, or is it
    >> that you want to make sure the mail is sent while you are on-line
    >> for a short amount of time?


    > The latter, If I just grab mail and the stock market reports,
    > often the mail doesn't go out unless force.


    As we have said before, you probably don't even need sendmail,
    depending on the client. Which email client are you using? Mutt?
    Elm? Thunderbird? Pine? What client are you using? Most modern
    clients don't require sendmail to send mail out to your isp's smtp
    server.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  10. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Mike wrote:

    > I had connected as root then tried to fetch/send mail as mike when I
    > first noticed the problem.


    You seem to think that you must use fetchmail to fetch email and
    sendmail to send email. But that's not how it works.

    > These are what I've done, the groups changes may have been excessive.
    >
    > root@slak11:~> chmod 660 /etc/resolv.conf /etc/ppp/{options,pppscript}
    > root@slak11:~> chown root:adm /etc/ppp/{pppscript,options} /etc/
    > resolv.conf
    > root@slak11:~> chmod u+s /usr/sbin/pppd
    > root@slak11:~> usermod -G
    > users,adm,floppy,mail,audio,video,cdrom,pop,smmsp mike


    None of this stuff is necessary. Sendmail, installed automatically
    at boot, will handle all users incoming and outgoing mail. You
    don't have to define anything with respect to individual users.

    > As mentioned elsewhere, mike still can'e send mail.


    That's because your CLIENT isn't setup properly. It has NOTHING to
    do with sendmail. There is actually little chance you even need
    sendmail.

    WHAT IS YOUR CLIENT? Mutt? Thunderbird? Pan? What is your
    client?

    Again, WHAT IS YOUR CLIENT?

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  11. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Mike wrote:

    > As mentioned elsewhere, mike still can'e send mail.
    >
    > mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -q
    > You do not have permission to process the queue


    This is not surprising. Sendmail doesn't work that way. If you want to
    process outbound mail queues when the PPP connection is established,
    look into the ip-up script (/etc/ppp/ip-up on a typical Slackware
    installation). You'll find details about that in the pppd manual page.

    Another option (which is what I used before I had DSL service) is
    on-demand dialing, so that when there is a mail message ready to go (and
    Sendmail is processing it to send), the link comes up, and ip-up calls
    fetchmail to pick up any incoming mail.

    I think the mistake you're making, fundamentally, is that you're looking
    for ways to cause these things to happen manually, rather than looking
    for ways to just let the computer do them for you.

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Systems and Network analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  12. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Sylvain Robitaille wrote:
    > Mike wrote:
    >
    >> As mentioned elsewhere, mike still can'e send mail.
    >>
    >> mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -q
    >> You do not have permission to process the queue

    >
    > This is not surprising. Sendmail doesn't work that way. If you want to
    > process outbound mail queues when the PPP connection is established,
    > look into the ip-up script (/etc/ppp/ip-up on a typical Slackware
    > installation). You'll find details about that in the pppd manual page.
    >
    > Another option (which is what I used before I had DSL service) is
    > on-demand dialing, so that when there is a mail message ready to go (and
    > Sendmail is processing it to send), the link comes up, and ip-up calls
    > fetchmail to pick up any incoming mail.
    >
    > I think the mistake you're making, fundamentally, is that you're looking
    > for ways to cause these things to happen manually, rather than looking
    > for ways to just let the computer do them for you.


    As we have stated about 18 times by now, the answer is most easily
    arrived at once we know what email client he is using. Many email
    clients do not require sendmail and send out the messages to the
    isp's smarthost immediately.

    In fact, pine, which we believe that you use, is just such a client.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  13. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    rm@biteme.org wrote:

    > As we have stated about 18 times by now, the answer is most easily
    > arrived at once we know what email client he is using. Many email
    > clients do not require sendmail and send out the messages to the
    > isp's smarthost immediately.


    I don't think it's the point of what the OP is trying to accomplish.
    Imagine setting up a system where you can prepare and "submit" outbound
    mail messages, before a network connection is available, so that the
    messages are ready to go and queued up *before* the connection to
    the ISP is established, then the queue is processed only after the
    connection exists. In such a case, Sendmail could then (with suitable
    configuration) process the queue and submit outgoing messages to the
    ISP's mail relay host.

    I agree with you that outbound messages should pass through the ISP's
    mail relay, but I don't agree that it makes any difference what MUA the
    OP is using: he (apparently) wants to be able to queue up outbound
    messages and have them sent only when the network connection is
    available. Sendmail is the right tool for this, not the MUA.

    > In fact, pine ... is just such a client.


    Or it can submit to a local MSA, which can then pass messages on to the
    ISP's MTA, via smart-host configuration.

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Systems and Network analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  14. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Sylvain Robitaille wrote:

    > I don't think it's the point of what the OP is trying to accomplish.
    > Imagine setting up a system where you can prepare and "submit" outbound
    > mail messages, before a network connection is available, so that the
    > messages are ready to go and queued up *before* the connection to
    > the ISP is established, then the queue is processed only after the
    > connection exists. In such a case, Sendmail could then (with suitable
    > configuration) process the queue and submit outgoing messages to the
    > ISP's mail relay host.


    This doesn't sound like what he wants to us. He seems to want to
    send and receive messages immediately, while he is online, and he is
    complaining because sendmail is queueing his outgoing messages
    instead of sending them out immediately. Thus, when he hangs up,
    his outgoing messages are still in the queue. He is trying to
    figure out how to flush that queue, and send his messages out before
    he hangs up.

    Because of the programs' names, the OP seems to believe that just as
    fetchmail is manually evoked to bring mail in, sendmail is some sort
    of sister program that should be manually invoked to send mail out.
    As you know, this is not true and sendmail is much more than that.

    In any case, the smarthost, such as sendmail, should always be
    online in order to handle errors, redirects, bounces, etc., in an
    efficient and responsible manner. This is part of being a good
    internet citizen. That's why, if he is going to be offline most of
    the time, his smarthost should be his ISP's mail server and not a
    local MTA such as sendmail which is almost always offline.

    > I agree with you that outbound messages should pass through the
    > ISP's mail relay, but I don't agree that it makes any difference
    > what MUA the OP is using: he (apparently) wants to be able to
    > queue up outbound messages and have them sent only when the
    > network connection is available. Sendmail is the right tool for
    > this, not the MUA.


    Some primitive MUAs, or email clients, such as elm and mutt, need a
    separate local MTA, such as sendmail, usually in daemon mode, for
    the simple task of forwarding messages to the ISP's smarthost. More
    modern clients, such as pine and thunderbird, allow you to define a
    remote smtp server.

    Thunderbird, for example, has a menu command called "send unsent
    messages." Using this command, messages written while offline or
    online, are sent out immediately to the ISP's smarthost, without
    sendmail or any other MTA present, when the user is online. And
    this seems to us to solve the problem that the OP is having.

    You can automate this, using sendmail, as you seem to be advising
    him to do, but we feel that such automation is overly complex and
    generally unnecessary for a system used by only a few, or even one,
    user. We submit that the user's current problem is a manifestation
    of that complexity, and the correct course of action is not to
    master the complexities of sendmail, as you want to do, but rather
    to simplify the task by removing the unnecessary sendmail, as we
    advise.

    Finally, there is little point in using sendmail unless one has
    his/her own domain name to manage. Using sendmail with a domain
    belonging to your ISP is like killing mosquitoes with a sledgehammer,
    or as Floyd would say, killing a .22 with a polar bear, and is only
    neccessary for hobbyists who insist on using long ago obsolete
    clients such as mutt and elm.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  15. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    On 2007-06-17, Mike wrote:
    > On Jun 16, 3:04 pm, Jim Diamond wrote:
    >> On 2007-06-16, Mike wrote:
    >>
    >> > mike@slak11:~> sendmail -v -Ac -qSroot
    >> > You do not have permission to process the queue
    >> > Thoughts?

    >>
    >> Ummm... have you considered running that command as root? Or are you
    >> trying to avoid doing that for some reason?


    > Yes that's what I do now but am trying to get setup so mike can send/
    > fetch mail.
    > Do you send mail as root?

    On those rare occasions when I need/desire to run sendmail manually, I
    do it as root.

    But unless I am in some unusual networking situation, it all pretty
    much happens automagically.

    As Sylvain has noted, you might want to kick of your sendmail command
    with the ip-up feature of ppp. I haven't used dial-up in a while so I
    forget the details, but IIRC it was fairly straightforward.

    >> If you have sendmail running in the background, it should periodically
    >> run the queue. Do you not have it running, or is it that you want to
    >> make sure the mail is sent while you are on-line for a short amount of
    >> time?


    > The latter, If I just grab mail and the stock market reports, often
    > the mail doesn't go out unless force.

    If sendmail can't send off a message immediately, the message is
    queued for a try later. The queue is run periodically, and it sounds
    like your time on-line is small enough so that the a running of the
    queue doesn't always happen when you are on-line. Again, I'd suggest
    going with Sylvain's ip-up suggestion.

    Jim

  16. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Jim Diamond wrote:

    > As Sylvain has noted, you might want to kick of your sendmail command
    > with the ip-up feature of ppp. I haven't used dial-up in a while so I
    > forget the details, but IIRC it was fairly straightforward.


    You should never use sendmail in this manner. Sendmail is by nature
    a daemon. If you want to move mail in this fashion there are other,
    far more appropriate options than sendmail. If you are going to use
    your own system as a smarthost then you should have sendmail, or an
    equivalent package, running all the time. Anything else is
    irresponsible use of the internet.

    We believe that some of you people are deliberately trying to piss
    us off with some of these comments. Nobody can be this stupid, not
    even Floyd Davidson. (Well, Guy Macon could...)

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  17. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Jim Diamond wrote:

    > If sendmail can't send off a message immediately, the message is
    > queued for a try later. The queue is run periodically, and it sounds
    > like your time on-line is small enough so that the a running of the
    > queue doesn't always happen when you are on-line. Again, I'd suggest
    > going with Sylvain's ip-up suggestion.


    "Sylvain's ip-up suggestion" does not solve the problem the poster
    is having, which is sending out his email immediately. Sylvain's
    ip-up suggestion merely means setting up a queue for a short period
    of time. It does not guarantee that emails written while online are
    actually being sent before the phone is hung up again. And what's
    more, since your MTA will no longer be accessible to the internet
    once you hang up, there will be no program available to handle error
    messages and bounces returned to you from the target server if the
    emails you send fail for some reason.

    In fact, the remote server may _never_ synchronize with sendmail
    because the ip-up "solution" is so hit and miss, and you may _never_
    come to understand that your emails failed before the remote servers
    finally give up on warning you.

    If you don't know what you are talking about, you shouldn't be
    giving advice in this newsgroup. If you are trying to learn, then
    listen with respect.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

  18. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    rm@biteme.org wrote:

    > If you are going to use your own system as a smarthost then you should
    > have sendmail, or an equivalent package, running all the time.
    > Anything else is irresponsible use of the internet.


    There are correct ways (plural) of doing what I propose, with Sendmail
    processing outbound queued mail on establishing a network connection.
    I don't think your tantrums are particularly helpful to the OP.

    The "responsible" portion involves ensuring that outbound mail passes
    through the ISP's mail server with a suitable envelope sender so that
    error bounces have somewhere reasonable to go. This does not mean
    needing to have a network-attached smtpd daemon on the local machine at
    all times. The "suitable envelope sender" mentioned above is an
    important point.

    > We believe that some of you people are deliberately trying to piss
    > us off with some of these comments. ...


    You're perhaps taking things personally and you shouldn't. This isn't
    about you, it's about the OP (I believe his name was "Mike") and his
    attempts to send mail as a user other than root.

    You've given your advice, and although it's valid and workable advice,
    others, myself included, have offered differing advice based solely on
    the fact that we believe it to be better suited to what we believe the
    OP is attempting to accomplish (or perhaps some have thought it would be
    worthwhile simply for the OP to consider more than one approach before
    deciding which one is best suited to his needs).

    The OP is no doubt intelligent and able to think for himself. He will
    consider the approaches that have been offerred, and probably try
    more than one before deciding which one best fits his needs. If he is
    successful in the end of accomplishing what he's trying to do, whichever
    approach he uses, he has been successfully helped, and that is the only
    point of following up to his messages, after all.

    > cordially, as always,


    Indeed.

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Systems and Network analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  19. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    rm@biteme.org wrote:

    > "Sylvain's ip-up suggestion" does not solve the problem the poster
    > is having, which is sending out his email immediately.


    According to what the OP has posted, it appears that he is trying to
    process an outbound mail queue, not be able to compose outgoing messages
    only while he is online.

    > Sylvain's ip-up suggestion merely means setting up a queue for a short
    > period of time.


    Yes.

    > It does not guarantee that emails written while online are
    > actually being sent before the phone is hung up again.


    That's a good point, but this can be handled by ensuring that the ip-up
    script (or at least the mail queue processing portion of it) is re-run
    before terminating the connection.

    > And what's more, since your MTA will no longer be accessible to the
    > internet once you hang up, there will be no program available to
    > handle error messages and bounces returned to you from the target
    > server if the emails you send fail for some reason.


    The envelope sender of outbound messages does not need to be an address on
    the local machine. In fact, unless you have always-on connectivity, (and
    in many cases even if you do have always-on connectivity) it shouldn't be.

    > In fact, the remote server may _never_ synchronize with sendmail
    > because the ip-up "solution" is so hit and miss, ...


    There is no "synchronization" that takes place between mail servers.
    SMTP is transaction based.

    The SMTP protocol is rather well defined, well documented, and well
    implemented in Sendmail. I also would not consider calling Sendmail
    from the ip-up script in order to process outbound mail queues to be
    "hit and miss", especially if it is configured to submit to the ISP's
    mail server. In that case, it's frankly not any more "hit and miss"
    than having the MUA submit to the ISP's mail server.

    > If you don't know what you are talking about, you shouldn't be
    > giving advice in this newsgroup. If you are trying to learn, then
    > listen with respect.


    I've been managing mail systems for years for a community of tens of
    thousands. I can't claim that I don't have any to learn, of course, but
    you're not demonstrating that you would be in any position to teach me.

    Sendmail is able to play the role of "mail client" as well as it can
    play the role of "mail server", and in fact it generally *does* play
    both roles, depending on which side of an SMTP transaction it's on.

    > cordially, as always,


    That's right ...

    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sylvain Robitaille syl@alcor.concordia.ca

    Systems and Network analyst Concordia University
    Instructional & Information Technology Montreal, Quebec, Canada
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  20. Re: Slackware 11.0 dialup, mail, user groups

    Sylvain Robitaille wrote:
    > rm@biteme.org wrote:


    >> If you are going to use your own system as a smarthost then you
    >> should have sendmail, or an equivalent package, running all the
    >> time. Anything else is irresponsible use of the internet.


    > There are correct ways (plural) of doing what I propose, with
    > Sendmail processing outbound queued mail on establishing a network
    > connection. I don't think your tantrums are particularly helpful
    > to the OP.


    Tantrums? You are trying to discredit what we say by discrediting
    us. Why is that? What "tantrum" have we thrown?

    We disagreed with you. And we explained, in detail, over several
    posts, why we believed that we offered the best solution and we
    described why your solution was not the best.

    For your part, you have ignored our solution. You have ignored our
    objective critique of your solution. But you did accuse us of
    throwing a "tantrum."

    Why is that?

    > The "responsible" portion involves ensuring that outbound mail
    > passes through the ISP's mail server with a suitable envelope
    > sender so that error bounces have somewhere reasonable to go.


    So you are using the ISP's mail server as your MTA and you are using
    sendmail as an MSA? Using sendmail as an MSA makes things
    unneccessarily complex. If you are using your ISP's smarthost as
    your MTA that is good because it is up all the time (hopefully).
    But using sendmail as an MSA is a waste of resources since all
    modern email clients have mail submission capabilities built in.

    Mutt and elm do not have MSA abilities, but using mutt or elm for
    your email now is like going hunting with a flintlock. Pine and
    thunderbird and probably every other email client all have MSA
    abilities built in and as such are designed for service in a
    system with a short-time connection time. Sendmail and the other
    MTAs are designed for full-time daemon usage.

    > This does not mean needing to have a network-attached smtpd daemon
    > on the local machine at all times. The "suitable envelope sender"
    > mentioned above is an important point.


    But the whole point of sendmail is that it is precisely a
    "network-attached smtp daemon" to be used at all times. That's what
    sendmail is for. If you are planning to do anything less than this,
    you don't need the complexity of sendmail.

    >> We believe that some of you people are deliberately trying to piss
    >> us off with some of these comments. ...


    > You're perhaps taking things personally and you shouldn't. This
    > isn't about you, it's about the OP (I believe his name was "Mike")
    > and his attempts to send mail as a user other than root.


    It most certainly is not about us. And we are upset because this is
    about "Mike" and we are the only one to have offered Mike a
    reasonable solution to his problem. The notion that he has to
    invoke chmod because sendmail is not sending his emails out fast
    enough for him is totally preposterous and yet you didn't see fit to
    advise him of such.

    Why is that? The thing is that we spend time educating Mike and
    _you_ as to how things should be and your little ego is stinging
    such at being corrected, that instead of constructively commenting
    on our much simpler solution to his problem, you accuse us of
    throwing a "trantrum" thereby implying that our solution is not
    worth considering.

    This is absolutely appalling behaviour.

    > You've given your advice, and although it's valid and workable
    > advice, others, myself included, have offered differing advice
    > based solely on the fact that we believe it to be better suited to
    > what we believe the OP is attempting to accomplish (or perhaps
    > some have thought it would be worthwhile simply for the OP to
    > consider more than one approach before deciding which one is best
    > suited to his needs).


    But your solution is wrong for many reasons and we have explained
    what those reasons are. Mike's whole problem came about because he
    was confused and believed that fetchmail and sendmail were sister
    programs and counterparts of each other. Why didn't you correct
    him? While fetchmail can be run in "daemon" mode, it most certainly
    is not a daemon and is not designed to be one. Sendmail, on the
    other hand, is a full-fledged MTA system designed to be used with
    hundreds, or even thousands of concurrent users. Using sendmail as
    an MSA to handle the requirements of a single user is asinine, to
    say the least. What's more, sendmail will not even function
    properly if it is not in full-time daemon mode, which is impossible
    on a casual dialup system.

    All this guy wants to do is fetch his mail from his ISP's pop3
    server on demand and send his mail to his ISP's smtp server on
    demand. Using sendmail or any other MTA in this situation is
    asinine. And using any client such as mutt or elm that might
    require such a solution is also asinine. Using mutt or elm for
    email is like watching the Superbowl on a 12" black and white TV
    while you have the equivalent of a 42" LCD named thunderbird sitting
    right beside it.

    Ever heard of Occam's razor? The simplist solution is _always_ the
    best and just because somebody else's solution is much simpler than
    yours doesn't entitle you to accuse them of throwing a "tantrum"
    when nothing like a tantrum ever took place.

    > The OP is no doubt intelligent and able to think for himself. He


    It's not a question of intelligence. It's a question of knowledge
    that is a bit difficult to come by in any way other than experience.

    > will consider the approaches that have been offerred, and probably
    > try more than one before deciding which one best fits his needs.


    Are you suggesting that we should not point out what we believe to
    be flaws in your solution? You are most certainly free to point out
    the flaws in our solution. In fact, we are quite disappointed that
    you didn't even try to do so. In any case, we doubt that there is a
    single poster to this ng that wouldn't be absolutely delighted to
    point out the flaws in any solution we offered. And yet our
    confidence is such that we continue to offer troubled posters the
    very best solutions that a.o.l.s. can muster.

    cordially, as always,

    rm

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