(OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file - Sinclair

This is a discussion on (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file - Sinclair ; The subject says most of what I want to ask about... I've bought four of Isao Tomita's early CDs and want to rip them to my hard drive for convenience. One problem with this is that from what I've heard, ...

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Thread: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

  1. (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    The subject says most of what I want to ask about...

    I've bought four of Isao Tomita's early CDs and want to rip them to my
    hard drive for convenience. One problem with this is that from what
    I've heard, MP3 format (the one I've used up to now) can only support
    2 channels max. I've heard that Ogg Vorbis not only has better
    compression than MP3 for the same quality, but also supports 4
    channels; unfortunately, whoever wrote Nero Express doesn't seem to
    have heard of that...

    For the time being I've ripped the Tomita albums to 4-channel WAV
    format (unfortunately my laptop only has a 2-channel soundcard; I have
    no way of knowing whether Nero Express has decoded the Dolby Surround
    encoding correctly (or at all) until I get my desktop machine and my
    5.1 speakers set up), but I'd like to know if anyone can recommend the
    following:

    1) A compressed file format (OGG?) that supports at least 4.0
    encoding, and which can be played in full surround by Winamp (or if
    need be by another free/cheap player). Preferably one which can also
    be played (in 2.0 of course) by most good (and perhaps one or two
    crap) MP3 players (I think my 4Gb player can play OGG, but I don't
    know about my 256Mb one).

    2) Free or cheap software which can rip to this format in 4.0 or 5.1.

    It's a pity that to the best of my knowledge no computer drive (not
    even DVD drives) can read the SACD layer of SACDs, so I'm unlikely
    ever to hear my "War of the Worlds"[1] CDs in their full surround
    glory...

    [1] Is anyone but me annoyed by the fact that the BBC has recently
    announced their showing of Steven Spielberg's 2005 "War of the Worlds"
    with a trailer using the Jeff Wayne music -- despite the fact that
    this music isn't used in the movie? It isn't even as if the movie is
    much cop; IMO George Pal's 1956 version is miles better...
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  2. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    Erm, just wondered why you thought those here might be able to help with
    this.

    I thought all cds were two channel so any surround was encoded by phase.

    Brian

    --
    Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
    in the display name may be lost.
    Blind user, so no pictures please!
    "Robert Baker" wrote in message
    news25194tkqradtitbbslnhau3f7grngqm5i@4ax.com...
    > The subject says most of what I want to ask about...
    >
    > I've bought four of Isao Tomita's early CDs and want to rip them to my
    > hard drive for convenience. One problem with this is that from what
    > I've heard, MP3 format (the one I've used up to now) can only support
    > 2 channels max. I've heard that Ogg Vorbis not only has better
    > compression than MP3 for the same quality, but also supports 4
    > channels; unfortunately, whoever wrote Nero Express doesn't seem to
    > have heard of that...
    >
    > For the time being I've ripped the Tomita albums to 4-channel WAV
    > format (unfortunately my laptop only has a 2-channel soundcard; I have
    > no way of knowing whether Nero Express has decoded the Dolby Surround
    > encoding correctly (or at all) until I get my desktop machine and my
    > 5.1 speakers set up), but I'd like to know if anyone can recommend the
    > following:
    >
    > 1) A compressed file format (OGG?) that supports at least 4.0
    > encoding, and which can be played in full surround by Winamp (or if
    > need be by another free/cheap player). Preferably one which can also
    > be played (in 2.0 of course) by most good (and perhaps one or two
    > crap) MP3 players (I think my 4Gb player can play OGG, but I don't
    > know about my 256Mb one).
    >
    > 2) Free or cheap software which can rip to this format in 4.0 or 5.1.
    >
    > It's a pity that to the best of my knowledge no computer drive (not
    > even DVD drives) can read the SACD layer of SACDs, so I'm unlikely
    > ever to hear my "War of the Worlds"[1] CDs in their full surround
    > glory...
    >
    > [1] Is anyone but me annoyed by the fact that the BBC has recently
    > announced their showing of Steven Spielberg's 2005 "War of the Worlds"
    > with a trailer using the Jeff Wayne music -- despite the fact that
    > this music isn't used in the movie? It isn't even as if the movie is
    > much cop; IMO George Pal's 1956 version is miles better...
    > --
    > Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all




  3. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 17:27:31 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
    wrote:

    >Erm, just wondered why you thought those here might be able to help with
    >this.


    I'm certainly far more likely to get help here than at WoS; last year
    I asked a serious question there about Tia Maria, and instead of the
    serious answer I was looking for, I got a load of sexist crap along
    the lines of the old "real men don't eat quiche" bollocks. (Of
    course, *real* real men eat and drink what *they* like, and don't
    allow others to dictate their choice.)

    >I thought all cds were two channel so any surround was encoded by phase.


    Most are, but as I already said, the Tomita ones I bought are Dolby
    Surround encoded (I don't know if this encoding would survive a rip to
    a compressed file, nor if any player can decode this), and some are
    SACD, meaning that they have both a CD-Audio (2.0) layer and a
    DVD-Audio (up to 5.1) layer (which however cannot be read except by
    SACD drives, which aren't made for computers)...

    --
    My confused, I'm God

  4. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on a
    classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it leads
    to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what is
    playtime per CD....

    B


  5. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:39:33 +0200, Bohus Král wrote:

    >Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on a
    >classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it leads
    >to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what is
    >playtime per CD....


    The Tomita CDs are about 40 minutes each; a pressed (2.0) CD can be at
    least 80 minutes long, if not longer.

    (It's said that the original maximum CD length of 74 minutes came
    about because Herbert von Karajan requested that a CD be long enough
    to hold Beethoven's 5th Symphony; but since the 5th is nowhere near 74
    minutes long, I reckon this is an urban myth.)
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  6. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:47:06 +0100, Robert Baker wrote:
    >
    >(It's said that the original maximum CD length of 74 minutes came
    >about because Herbert von Karajan requested that a CD be long enough
    >to hold Beethoven's 5th Symphony; but since the 5th is nowhere near 74
    >minutes long, I reckon this is an urban myth.)


    9th. Maybe urban myth, maybe not.

    Frink

    --
    Doctor J. Frink : 'Rampant Ribald Ringtail'
    See his mind here : http://www.cmp.liv.ac.uk/frink/
    Annoy his mind here : pjf at cmp dot liv dot ack dot ook
    "No sir, I didn't like it!" - Mr Horse

  7. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    I've now tried ripping "In the Court of the Crimson King: An
    Observation by King Crimson" to OGG; using the default quality seting
    (5) and VBR, as I usually do; the bitrate of the compressed files was
    about three times that of MP3 (around 400Kbps), but so was the file
    size (about 3Mb/minute). Since such a high bitrate (which is probably
    the reason why younger people, who thus have better hearing than I do,
    are so enthusiastic about OGG) is useless to me, it looks as though
    I'll have to find the quality setting which produces MP3-type
    bitrates (around 128-160 Kbps average) so I can compare the two
    (especially as to filesize).
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  8. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Bohus Král wrote:

    > Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on a
    > classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it leads
    > to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what is
    > playtime per CD....


    Dolby Surround is carried on top of a normal stereo (two-channel)
    recording. The additional channels are encoded within the normal stereo
    tracks, so a Dolby Surround encoded CD will just be a totally standard
    stereo audio CD, which just happens to have Surround information encoded
    on the audio - there will be no reduction in maximum playing time for the
    CD. The audio must be played back through a Dolby Surround Decoder in
    order to extract the two additional audio channels.

    The Surround effect may or may not survive MP3 (or other) compression - I
    have never tried this. But you'll only need a standard, stereo MP3 file to
    carry Dolby Surround.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Surround

    --
    Please remove all-your-clothes before replying.


  9. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:52:43 +0100, Tim Fardell
    wrote:


    >The Surround effect may or may not survive MP3 (or other) compression - I
    >have never tried this. But you'll only need a standard, stereo MP3 file to
    >carry Dolby Surround.


    I don't know if Winamp can decode Dolby Surround, but any
    halfway-decent DVD player (I use PowerDVD) can -- whether they can do
    so when playing surround-encoded CDs, or MP3s ripped from such,
    remains to be heard...

    >http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Surround


    Have you got a reliable reference (i.e. somewhere *other than*
    Wikipedia)? :-) The difference between Snopes and Wikipedia is that
    Snopes only has *two* idiots editing it; Wikipedia has thousands. (The
    latest idiocy I've seen is one editor claiming (fanatically) that "the
    Pizza Planet truck appears in /The Incredibles/" because it does in
    every other Pixar movie (although the ones in /Ratatouille/ are far
    too small to make out in the DVD version -- I would like to be pointed
    to a screen grab from the Blu-Ray edition), and even citing as
    "evidence" a web page which *explicitly* states that it doesn't).
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  10. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    The original vinyl's were in CD-4 quadraphonic. Tomita originally started
    with CBS/Sony using SQ, but jumped ship when he started to do his classical
    stuff. I have one here on CD, and apart from sounding a bit phase and
    distorted as its quite old now, it seems to rip OK

    I have not come across a cd with a dvdd layer on it, I seem to recall this
    was tried soome years back with problems with compatibility.

    DVD audio seems not to have taken off that much. I think the standard Dolby
    Surround is phase coded, but Dolby 5.1 etc, digital surround is separate
    channels.

    The whole thing is a nightmare.
    Brian

    --
    Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
    in the display name may be lost.
    Blind user, so no pictures please!
    "Bohus Král" wrote in message
    news:4890d18c$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk...
    > Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on a
    > classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it
    > leads to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what
    > is playtime per CD....
    >
    > B




  11. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    Was more likely to be the most at that time they thought they could safely
    get on a disc that would fit into the size of a standard car radio mounting
    hole!

    Brian

    --
    Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
    in the display name may be lost.
    Blind user, so no pictures please!
    "Robert Baker" wrote in message
    news:74o194pta7pr7ve8f9b3l4ehp3i1rsdne8@4ax.com...
    > On Wed, 30 Jul 2008 22:39:33 +0200, Bohus Král wrote:
    >
    >>Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on a
    >>classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it
    >>leads
    >>to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what is
    >>playtime per CD....

    >
    > The Tomita CDs are about 40 minutes each; a pressed (2.0) CD can be at
    > least 80 minutes long, if not longer.
    >
    > (It's said that the original maximum CD length of 74 minutes came
    > about because Herbert von Karajan requested that a CD be long enough
    > to hold Beethoven's 5th Symphony; but since the 5th is nowhere near 74
    > minutes long, I reckon this is an urban myth.)
    > --
    > Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all




  12. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    Not quitte right as there are other channels often synthesised as well.
    Often a centre speaker these days.
    The dolby pro logic is very like SQ, which also had logic to increase and
    decrease some channel volumes. The problem was usually that the image could
    move. QS was better, but by far the best I heard was Matrix Hj.

    Brian

    --
    Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
    in the display name may be lost.
    Blind user, so no pictures please!
    "Tim Fardell" wrote in message
    news:Pine.LNX.4.44.0807311345430.26394-100000@menace.crumblenet.co.uk...
    > On Wed, 30 Jul 2008, Bohus Král wrote:
    >
    >> Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on
    >> a
    >> classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it
    >> leads
    >> to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what is
    >> playtime per CD....

    >
    > Dolby Surround is carried on top of a normal stereo (two-channel)
    > recording. The additional channels are encoded within the normal stereo
    > tracks, so a Dolby Surround encoded CD will just be a totally standard
    > stereo audio CD, which just happens to have Surround information encoded
    > on the audio - there will be no reduction in maximum playing time for the
    > CD. The audio must be played back through a Dolby Surround Decoder in
    > order to extract the two additional audio channels.
    >
    > The Surround effect may or may not survive MP3 (or other) compression - I
    > have never tried this. But you'll only need a standard, stereo MP3 file to
    > carry Dolby Surround.
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Surround
    >
    > --
    > Please remove all-your-clothes before replying.
    >




  13. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    I think 192k is pretty good, though as is often said, not all
    encoding/decoding systems are as good as each other. Why not use flac?

    Brian

    --
    Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
    Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
    in the display name may be lost.
    Blind user, so no pictures please!
    "Robert Baker" wrote in message
    news:gi7394tf4nps97uvg5f2ig9nako4ddeqmn@4ax.com...
    > I've now tried ripping "In the Court of the Crimson King: An
    > Observation by King Crimson" to OGG; using the default quality seting
    > (5) and VBR, as I usually do; the bitrate of the compressed files was
    > about three times that of MP3 (around 400Kbps), but so was the file
    > size (about 3Mb/minute). Since such a high bitrate (which is probably
    > the reason why younger people, who thus have better hearing than I do,
    > are so enthusiastic about OGG) is useless to me, it looks as though
    > I'll have to find the quality setting which produces MP3-type
    > bitrates (around 128-160 Kbps average) so I can compare the two
    > (especially as to filesize).
    > --
    > Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all




  14. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 20:37:08 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
    wrote:

    >I have not come across a cd with a dvdd layer on it, I seem to recall this
    >was tried soome years back with problems with compatibility.


    It's called SACD, and one example is "War of the Worlds" by Jeff
    Wayne. Currently available at Wollies for a fiver (the last time I
    looked).
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  15. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    In article <4890d18c$0$90265$14726298@news.sunsite.dk>, bohusk@host.sk
    says...
    > Well, I have to say, that I never heard anything about surround sound on a
    > classical CD. If it is uncompressed 4 channels 44kHz 16bit a track, it leads
    > to half lenght of playtime against standard CD. Just wondering what is
    > playtime per CD....


    i have a couple of DTS CDs, they didn't sound to bad - though of course
    you had to use a DVD player or connect a CD player to a DTS capable
    decoder via a coaxial or optical cable.


    --
    "Please be informed that Port 80 is meant only for the FTP files
    upload."
    Deewna, BT Total Broadband Support

  16. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    Robert Baker wrote:
    > I've now tried ripping "In the Court of the Crimson King: An
    > Observation by King Crimson" to OGG; using the default quality seting
    > (5) and VBR, as I usually do;


    I don't think Vorbis really does CBR... at least, not well.

    -q5 should be ~80kbps per channel.

    > the bitrate of the compressed files was about three times that of MP3
    > (around 400Kbps)


    Was this a surround encode? 5 channels @ ~80kbps per would give you that
    sort of bit rate, I suppose. If not then I have no idea why the bit rate
    is so high.

    > but so was the file size (about 3Mb/minute). Since such a high
    > bitrate (which is probably the reason why younger people, who thus
    > have better hearing than I do, are so enthusiastic about OGG) is
    > useless to me.


    The main reason I like Vorbis compared to MP3 is that the compression
    artifacts are less irritating as the bit rate drops - to my ear the
    sound degrades from "CD" to "FM Radio" to "AM radio" rather than "CD"
    to "Seaside" to "Prolonged Greek toast". That said, the LAME encoder has
    done great things with the spec.

    > it looks as though I'll have to find the quality setting which
    > produces MP3-type bitrates (around 128-160 Kbps average) so I can
    > compare the two (especially as to filesize).


    -q3 or -q4 should give you an approximate file size comparison with
    128-160kbps mp3 - with a 2 channel rip, obviously

  17. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Fri, 01 Aug 2008 14:49:43 +0100, fuzzix wrote:

    >Robert Baker wrote:
    >> I've now tried ripping "In the Court of the Crimson King: An
    >> Observation by King Crimson" to OGG; using the default quality seting
    >> (5) and VBR, as I usually do;

    >
    >I don't think Vorbis really does CBR... at least, not well.


    The Vorbis encoder offered by Nero Express (within Nero 8, the latest
    as I write) offers a CBR mode; but see my other comments below.

    And BTW, the Nero encoder's settings are 1 to 99, with the default
    being 50; I must have misread that as "5".

    >Was this a surround encode? 5 channels @ ~80kbps per would give you that
    >sort of bit rate, I suppose.


    Nope, Nero's encoder only offers 1 or 2 channels.

    > If not then I have no idea why the bit rate
    >is so high.


    I suspect the answer must be "because the Nero encoder is cr@p".

    >> it looks as though I'll have to find the quality setting which
    >> produces MP3-type bitrates (around 128-160 Kbps average) so I can
    >> compare the two (especially as to filesize).

    >
    >-q3 or -q4 should give you an approximate file size comparison with
    >128-160kbps mp3 - with a 2 channel rip, obviously


    I've tried reducing the quality setting to 16, but with no effect (at
    least not on filesize).
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  18. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    Robert Baker wrote:
    > And BTW, the Nero encoder's settings are 1 to 99, with the default
    > being 50; I must have misread that as "5".


    Ah, OK. The quality settings I gave are for the reference command line
    encoder.

    > I've tried reducing the quality setting to 16, but with no effect (at
    > least not on filesize).


    Hrm... looks like Nero isn't suited to this at all.

    What about using CDex with paranoia or EAC? They both support Ogg Vorbis
    afaik.

    Can't help you with multi-channel encoding, unfortunately.

  19. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:13:22 +0100, Robert Baker
    wrote:

    >I don't know if Winamp can decode Dolby Surround


    It can (unless it's my Realtek sound hardware doing the decoding).
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

  20. Re: (OT) Ripping Dolby Surround CDs to compressed file

    On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 15:13:22 +0100, Robert Baker
    wrote:

    >On Thu, 31 Jul 2008 13:52:43 +0100, Tim Fardell
    > wrote:
    >
    >>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dolby_Surround

    >


    Has someone got a reliable source for Dolby Surround info? I refuse
    to read anything on Wankipedia; any site which insists that Captain
    Scarlet, of all things, is "not notable" obviously can't be trusted
    for accurate information...
    --
    Zork: one nation, underground, invisible, with loot and adventure for all

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