The Great Linux Experiment 2004 - SGI

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  1. The Great Linux Experiment 2004


    Since linux appears to be the new calling card here i thought what
    could be more fun than taking a stroll down linux lane and evaluating
    the state of the linux on mips camp here in 2004!

    So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite* distribution
    for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also power
    my vcr?

    a full log of my research activity will be posted at http://www.hepcat.org

    i look forward to this bold leap in modern computing!

    --cosmos

  2. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    cosmos wrote:

    > Since linux appears to be the new calling card here i thought what
    > could be more fun than taking a stroll down linux lane and evaluating
    > the state of the linux on mips camp here in 2004!
    >
    > So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite* distribution
    > for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also power
    > my vcr?
    >
    > a full log of my research activity will be posted at http://www.hepcat.org
    >
    > i look forward to this bold leap in modern computing!
    >
    > --cosmos


    Haven't you heard, MIPS is DEAD!!! Long live Itanic! Why want to run
    crappy MIPS with new Open Source salvation?

    We welcome good new Linux state happy for us all. Old UNIX fossil like
    IRIX no match for the GNU generation.

    -zolo


  3. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    zolo wrote:

    > cosmos wrote:
    >
    >> Since linux appears to be the new calling card here i thought what
    >> could be more fun than taking a stroll down linux lane and evaluating
    >> the state of the linux on mips camp here in 2004!
    >>
    >> So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite*
    >> distribution
    >> for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also
    >> power
    >> my vcr?
    >> a full log of my research activity will be posted at
    >> http://www.hepcat.org
    >>
    >> i look forward to this bold leap in modern computing!
    >>
    >> --cosmos

    >
    >
    > Haven't you heard, MIPS is DEAD!!! Long live Itanic! Why want to run
    > crappy MIPS with new Open Source salvation?
    >
    > We welcome good new Linux state happy for us all. Old UNIX fossil like
    > IRIX no match for the GNU generation.
    >
    > -zolo
    >


    http://www.mips.com/content/Ecosyste...alog/licensees
    Right.....
    MIPS is dead....

    S.Chang

  4. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article ,
    S.Chang wrote:
    :http://www.mips.com/content/Ecosyste...alog/licensees
    :Right.....
    :MIPS is dead....

    It won't let me browse from my Netscape 4.7 IRIX 6.2 system.
    (6.2 ==> no mozilla available.)
    --
    vi -- think of it as practice for the ROGUE Olympics!

  5. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:09:23 -0600,
    cosmos , in
    wrote:

    >+ So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite* distribution
    >+ for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also power
    >+ my vcr?


    It would be debian. http://www.debian.org/ports/mips/

    It won't power your vcr, but you can build a pvr from some spare PC
    you have laying around and a video-in card...

    James
    --
    Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
    I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow
    isn't looking good, either.
    I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.

  6. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article , S.Chang wrote:
    > http://www.mips.com/content/Ecosyste...alog/licensees
    > Right.....
    > MIPS is dead....


    Have you noticed that everything listed there is in the embedded
    products market? I.E. no real computers? Even SGI isn't listed
    there.

    MIPS is dead in the market of computers (servers/workstations/smart
    terminals/...). Not that I'm happy with it - I like the MIPS
    architecture, and personally would like it to remain in the area...
    But that seems to be the state.

    -- Tom

    --
    Tom Alsberg - certified insane, complete illiterate.
    e-mail:
    Homepage: http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~alsbergt/
    * An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

  7. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    Tom Alsberg wrote:

    > In article , S.Chang wrote:
    > > http://www.mips.com/content/Ecosyste...alog/licensees
    > > Right.....
    > > MIPS is dead....

    >
    > Have you noticed that everything listed there is in the embedded
    > products market? I.E. no real computers? Even SGI isn't listed
    > there.


    yes, MIPS is an extremely popular and widely implemented
    processor for embedded market. ARM is also popular. Calling
    one or the other a 'real computer' though is like saying LinTux
    is a real operating system.

    >
    >
    > MIPS is dead in the market of computers (servers/workstations/smart
    > terminals/...). Not that I'm happy with it - I like the MIPS
    > architecture, and personally would like it to remain in the area...
    > But that seems to be the state.


    power pc is very nice too. trying to design with intel is like a rusty
    shave.

    >
    >
    > -- Tom
    >
    > --
    > Tom Alsberg - certified insane, complete illiterate.
    > e-mail:
    > Homepage: http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~alsbergt/
    > * An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.



  8. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article <401B979F.664043DB@mrnutty.com>, SkyWriter wrote:
    > Tom Alsberg wrote:
    >>
    >> Have you noticed that everything listed there is in the embedded
    >> products market? I.E. no real computers? Even SGI isn't listed
    >> there.

    >
    > yes, MIPS is an extremely popular and widely implemented
    > processor for embedded market. ARM is also popular.


    True... As well as ARM is neither a processor used on computers.

    > Calling one or the other a 'real computer' though is like saying
    > LinTux is a real operating system.


    I am not calling either whatever they do nowadays with MIPS nor
    whatever they do with ARM a real computer. As for the latter, that
    really depends on your definition of an operating system - and if what
    you have today (including HP/UX, Solaris, Mac OS, and Windows NT, and
    for that matter IRIX) is an operating system, then Linux is just as
    well (not sure what criteria you have distinguishing it)

    As I said, they aren't dead in the embedded market - but embedded
    devices have less requirements and their architecture is always a few
    generations back from what computers use.

    For the embedded stuff there are many suitable architectures, but the
    computer (I.E. workstation/server/other "general purpose" advanced
    thingy) area is slowly getting into a lack of (sensible) architectures
    used... Alpha is in its way to die, SPARC is getting rarer and slowed
    down, MIPS is doomed to the embedded market, etc... All new
    developments are based on such things as Intel IA32, x86-64, Itanium,
    and the like, none of which is much to my taste. PowerPC (that is
    m68k) is probably the only decent architecture left, although I don't
    know it well enough to say... Nothing new under the sky, anyway -
    everything which comes is corrupted by the compatibility with x86...

    >> MIPS is dead in the market of computers (servers/workstations/smart
    >> terminals/...). Not that I'm happy with it - I like the MIPS
    >> architecture, and personally would like it to remain in the area...
    >> But that seems to be the state.

    >
    > power pc is very nice too. trying to design with intel is like a rusty
    > shave.


    I don't know Power PC too much, but from what I know it is fine... I
    agree about the latter sentence - but that's just what happens when
    you carry with you backward compatibility and legacy of something as
    primitive as the 8080 (over 20 years ago) nowadays...

    Anyway, unfortunately for me, MIPS seems to be dead nowadays, with all
    usage in the embedded market.

    -- Tom

    --
    Tom Alsberg - certified insane, complete illiterate.
    e-mail:
    Homepage: http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~alsbergt/
    * An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

  9. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    Tom Alsberg wrote:

    > In article <401B979F.664043DB@mrnutty.com>, SkyWriter wrote
    >
    > As I said, they aren't dead in the embedded market - but embedded
    > devices have less requirements and their architecture is always a few
    > generations back from what computers use.
    >


    that's funny, i know embedded systems that utilize at least 256gig of
    memory,
    and as many as 96 processors, in a shared memory multiprocess architecture.

    and they don't run linux.




  10. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    Tom Alsberg wrote:

    > In article , S.Chang wrote:
    >
    >>http://www.mips.com/content/Ecosyste...alog/licensees
    >>Right.....
    >>MIPS is dead....

    >
    >
    > Have you noticed that everything listed there is in the embedded
    > products market? I.E. no real computers? Even SGI isn't listed
    > there.
    >

    MIPS group is part of SGI, same as Alias.
    The lack of the human I/O we are used to doesn't mean they are not
    computers, development wise they attract as much attention as the CPUs
    in PC, the market is huge, not every one owns a personal PC, but they do
    have at leats one embedded device, either a PDA or a mobile phone, even
    your remote control for TV may use MIPS inside.

    > MIPS is dead in the market of computers (servers/workstations/smart
    > terminals/...). Not that I'm happy with it - I like the MIPS
    > architecture, and personally would like it to remain in the area...
    > But that seems to be the state.
    >

    It's not dead, they just change to a more suitable market for them, who
    can compete with Intel and they way they run business? until now Intel
    still doesn't treat AMD as a threat.

    S.Chang

  11. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article <_GRSb.2674$2X1.24818722@news-text.cableinet.net>,
    S.Chang wrote:
    :MIPS group is part of SGI, same as Alias.

    I don't think that is correct, but it might be in some legal sense that
    I didn't catch:

    http://www.mips.com/content/Corporat...Relations/FAQs

    Q. What is "MIPSB"? What is the difference between "MIPS" and "MIPSB"?
    A. On June 20, 2000 Silicon Graphics ("SGI") distributed all of its
    remaining interest in MIPS in the form of a tax free stock dividend of
    Class B common stock to its shareholders. Prior to the distribution,
    the Class B shares were not publicly traded. The Class B common shares
    are listed on NASDAQ under the symbol "MIPSB" and are traded
    separately from the Class A common shares that are traded on NASDAQ
    under the symbol "MIPS." The Class A and Class B shares have
    substantially identical rights except that the Class B shares are
    entitled to elect 80% of MIPS Technologies' board of directors. The
    number of Class A Common shares currently trading (the"float") is
    approximately 13 million. The float for the Class B Common shares is
    approximately 25 million. For more information, please click on
    www.sgi.com/company_info/investors/ and see "SGI and MIPS Technologies
    Announce Spin-off of MIPS shares".


    So, according to that, SGI no longer holds an interest in MIPS, and
    instead the people who held SGI stock got the MIPS stock, which they
    were then free to hold or sell as they saw fit.
    --
    Those were borogoves and the momerathsoutgrabe completely mimsy.

  12. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004


    > So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite* distribution
    > for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also

    power
    > my vcr?


    I try to keep half an eye on linux.debian.ports.mips (ok, shoot me :-))
    There is an interesting thread about LIN*X on mips. It seems someone is
    actually writing for O2 (including graphical support)

    http://groups.google.com/groups?dq=&...%3DUTF-8%26oe%
    3DUTF-8%26group%3Dlinux.debian.ports.mips



  13. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    sy_nttvr@gurcragntba.pbz (I R A Darth Aggie) writes:
    > On Fri, 30 Jan 2004 11:09:23 -0600,
    > cosmos , in
    > wrote:
    >
    > >+ So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite* distribution
    > >+ for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also power
    > >+ my vcr?

    >
    > It would be debian. http://www.debian.org/ports/mips/
    >
    > It won't power your vcr, but you can build a pvr from some spare PC
    > you have laying around and a video-in card...


    Actually you could even use an Indy. Indy video works with Linux since
    the last debian developer meeting.

    Thomas Jahns
    --
    "Computers are good at following instructions,
    but not at reading your mind."
    D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

  14. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 03:41:10PM +0000, Tom Alsberg wrote:
    > PowerPC (that is m68k)


    Woah there, slugger. PowerPC has no 68k roots, nor does it contain any
    68k emulation code. You may be thinking this because PPC Macs can run
    68k Mac apps. The PPC Mac ROM actually contains the code for this.

    You can't run 68k stuff on an RS/6000 or my Cisco switch.

    --
    Mark Laws mdl@60hz.org
    http://www.60hz.org

  15. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article <401BA41A.D7996704@mrnutty.com>, SkyWriter wrote:
    > Tom Alsberg wrote:
    >>
    >> As I said, they aren't dead in the embedded market - but embedded
    >> devices have less requirements and their architecture is always a few
    >> generations back from what computers use.

    >
    > that's funny, i know embedded systems that utilize at least 256gig of
    > memory, and as many as 96 processors, in a shared memory
    > multiprocess architecture.


    Well, you could also call that an embedded system, although in design
    it is more like a real computer (it probably has some programmable
    interface, I/O, and the like, for whatever use). However it is
    probably embedded in the sense that it is very special purpose.
    Anyway, this kind of embedded devices are very rare - of the least
    interest for me (just number-crunching/simulations/real-time control
    and the like)

    > and they don't run linux.


    Makes sense - probably something real time or very special...

    -- Tom

    --
    Tom Alsberg - certified insane, complete illiterate.
    e-mail:
    Homepage: http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~alsbergt/
    * An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

  16. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article <20040131214629.GA53836@urusai.60hz.org>, Mark Laws wrote:
    > On Sat, Jan 31, 2004 at 03:41:10PM +0000, Tom Alsberg wrote:
    >> PowerPC (that is m68k)

    >
    > Woah there, slugger. PowerPC has no 68k roots, nor does it contain any
    > 68k emulation code. You may be thinking this because PPC Macs can run
    > 68k Mac apps. The PPC Mac ROM actually contains the code for this.
    >
    > You can't run 68k stuff on an RS/6000 or my Cisco switch.


    You are right - sorry, my mistake - didn't think at that point.

    -- Tom

    --
    Tom Alsberg - certified insane, complete illiterate.
    e-mail:
    Homepage: http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~alsbergt/
    * An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

  17. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article <_GRSb.2674$2X1.24818722@news-text.cableinet.net>, S.Chang wrote:
    > Tom Alsberg wrote:
    >>
    >> Have you noticed that everything listed there is in the embedded
    >> products market? I.E. no real computers? Even SGI isn't listed
    >> there.

    >
    > MIPS group is part of SGI, same as Alias.


    Oh - interesting... Didn't know that.

    > The lack of the human I/O we are used to doesn't mean they are not
    > computers,


    Of course, technically they are. But they are mostly very low-end,
    and almost always very special-purpose - so choosing a CPU is
    something easier (less considerations to make and points to compare
    except how well it performs your specific purpose) there.

    > development wise they attract as much attention as the CPUs in PC,
    > the market is huge


    True - but there is a much larger variety there. What disturbs me in
    the "real computer" market nowadays is the narrow variety (little
    options, and 90% or so is Intel IA32) there. Therefore I don't want
    the nicer architectures like MIPS, Alpha, SPARC, PowerPC, ... to die.

    > not every one owns a personal PC, but they do have at leats one
    > embedded device, either a PDA or a mobile phone, even your remote
    > control for TV may use MIPS inside.


    I am well aware of that.

    >> MIPS is dead in the market of computers (servers/workstations/smart
    >> terminals/...). Not that I'm happy with it - I like the MIPS
    >> architecture, and personally would like it to remain in the area...
    >> But that seems to be the state.

    >
    > It's not dead, they just change to a more suitable market for them, who
    > can compete with Intel and they way they run business?


    Not sure - can you point to something that Intel do which MIPS cannot
    do business-wise?
    It's just the problem of popularity and the fact that the IBM PC made
    the x86 "de-facto" that gives them a strong advantage - which makes it
    difficult for otheres - but still there should be competition - at
    least for the more serious users (I.E. where there is a real system
    administrator, not some home Windows/Mac user)

    > until now Intel still doesn't treat AMD as a threat.


    Actually they do - there is a lot of fuss (inside Intel) about threats
    for AMD, especially with the future of x86-64 (AMD-64/Hammer/Opteron)
    as a 64-bit architecture.

    But AMD are of little interest in that matter - since the CPUs are of
    the same architecture.

    Some of it might just be psychological - I like the idea of a few
    different architectures and portability in the level of
    compiler/OS... Also I just like competition, and not having the
    market ruled by one giant...

    > S.Chang


    -- Tom

    There was a time when nobody would think of using an Intel (IA32/80386)
    based machine as a server or multi-user computer...

    --
    Tom Alsberg - certified insane, complete illiterate.
    e-mail:
    Homepage: http://www.cs.huji.ac.il/~alsbergt/
    * An idea is not responsible for the people who believe in it.

  18. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    In article <_GRSb.2674$2X1.24818722@news-text.cableinet.net>,
    S.Chang wrote:
    >MIPS group is part of SGI, same as Alias.


    SGI develops MIPS-architecture CPUs for its own server and
    workstation systems, but the embedded/IP business (www.mips.com) was
    spun off from SGI a long time ago and has been completely independent
    for several years now.
    Jon

  19. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    cosmos wrote:

    > Since linux appears to be the new calling card here i thought what
    > could be more fun than taking a stroll down linux lane and evaluating
    > the state of the linux on mips camp here in 2004!


    Happy hacking then!

    > So please all you GNU and linux gurus point me to the *elite* distribution
    > for linux on sgi hardware. is it redhat? is it debian? can it also power
    > my vcr?


    Well, Linux on SGI hardware is mostly fun, not a perfectly
    useable system. I like Debian and I use an Indy with Debian
    as a DNS server for my home LAN. It works reliable, but
    without extras.

    > a full log of my research activity will be posted at http://www.hepcat.org


    > i look forward to this bold leap in modern computing!


    You're welcome. But don't come back and tell us that IRIX
    has better hardware support than Linux. We already know that.

    mfg
    Dennis

    --
    "Wer zuletzt lacht, lacht am besten", sagt das Sprichwort und meint
    offenbar den Typ des begriffsstutzigen Idioten, der einen Witz immer erst
    zehn Minuten spaeter versteht.

  20. Re: The Great Linux Experiment 2004

    Użytkownik Jon Leech napisał:

    > SGI develops MIPS-architecture CPUs for its own server and
    > workstation systems, but the embedded/IP business (www.mips.com) was


    Is SGI still developing MIPS CPUs ? Rumors are that they cancelled R18k,
    instead they are teaching penguins how to fly .


    Penguins should die
    and not to fly
    Real fun to play
    is MIPS
    hurray !!!

    :P


    Kuba
    --
    perl -e 's%%"|xrc~B~weFx_u~fb;"^1x17%e&&s&^&I love &&&print#@%%'


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