Re: SGI using ATI Chips? - SGI

This is a discussion on Re: SGI using ATI Chips? - SGI ; In article , Markus Kummerer wrote: > >According to Heise Online ( http://www.heise.de ), SGI´s upcoming product, >which they name "Onyx4 UlitmateVision", is going to use ATI Graphics Chips. >The site also claims, that an ATI Graphics Chip will be ...

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  1. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In article ,
    Markus Kummerer wrote:
    >
    >According to Heise Online (http://www.heise.de), SGI´s upcoming product,
    >which they name "Onyx4 UlitmateVision", is going to use ATI Graphics Chips.
    >The site also claims, that an ATI Graphics Chip will be available for the
    >"Tezro" Visual Workstation in 2004.
    >


    Hardly a new concept; the RealityEngine used Intel i860s to do number
    crunching rather than some ASIC.

    --
    David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
    Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
    University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
    Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

  2. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Hello again,

    If you have not seen it yet, the new systems, Onyx4 and Tezro were
    introduced.

    Call me ignorant, but the Tezro tower design is just plain ugly. To me it
    looks like the plastic box you get at Walmart if you buy 6 Cokes at once.
    IMO this is not how a premium workstation should look like, why not keep the
    Fuel chassis?

    BTW, I noticed that a new CRT display, the C220 was also introduced. Is this
    the Sony F520 display?

    just my 2c...
    markus




  3. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In message , David Evans wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Markus Kummerer wrote:
    > >
    > >According to Heise Online (http://www.heise.de), SGI´s upcoming product,
    > >which they name "Onyx4 UlitmateVision", is going to use ATI Graphics Chips.
    > >The site also claims, that an ATI Graphics Chip will be available for the
    > >"Tezro" Visual Workstation in 2004.
    > >

    >
    > Hardly a new concept; the RealityEngine used Intel i860s to do number
    > crunching rather than some ASIC.
    >


    This is a bit different. Sgi using Ati graphics is like HP selling Epson
    printers. If they'll fit the Tezro with Ati graphics, why should a customer pay
    $20,000 when they can get a PC with the same graphics for much less ?
    Using commodity hardware hasn't worked well for Sgi so far.

    I sure hope they'll still do their own graphics. It's what makes it a Silicon
    Graphics workstation. VPro V12 may be getting old, but I can't imagine that
    they haven't done anything in the 2 years that it was released.

    Mark


  4. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In article <3f12de7c$0$49106$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
    Mark Hellegers wrote:
    >In message , David Evans wrote:
    >> Hardly a new concept; the RealityEngine used Intel i860s to do number
    >> crunching rather than some ASIC.
    >>

    >
    >This is a bit different. Sgi using Ati graphics is like HP selling Epson
    >printers. If they'll fit the Tezro with Ati graphics, why should a customer pay
    >$20,000 when they can get a PC with the same graphics for much less ?


    Surely, if the PC provides the same functionality for much less then that
    would be the way to go. However, it's not necessarily the case: if I build
    an appropriate PCI-X (or AGP or whatever) bridge and stuck that graphcs card
    in an Amiga 3000 I could claim to have "the same graphics" but I bet it would
    not be a real blazer. :-)

    --
    David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
    Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
    University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
    Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

  5. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In message , David Evans wrote:
    > In article <3f12de7c$0$49106$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
    > Mark Hellegers wrote:
    > >In message , David Evans wrote:
    > >> Hardly a new concept; the RealityEngine used Intel i860s to do number
    > >> crunching rather than some ASIC.
    > >>

    > >
    > >This is a bit different. Sgi using Ati graphics is like HP selling Epson
    > >printers. If they'll fit the Tezro with Ati graphics, why should a

    > customer pay
    > >$20,000 when they can get a PC with the same graphics for much less ?

    >
    > Surely, if the PC provides the same functionality for much less then that
    > would be the way to go. However, it's not necessarily the case: if I build
    > an appropriate PCI-X (or AGP or whatever) bridge and stuck that graphcs card
    > in an Amiga 3000 I could claim to have "the same graphics" but I bet it
    > would
    > not be a real blazer. :-)


    Well, that's obviously a silly comparison. A not so silly comparison would be
    comparing it to the Apple G5 for example. You can get Ati graphics for that, it
    has much faster processors and it also has a good architecture.
    An G5 with dual 2 Ghz processors costs $3,000. Sure, the Tezro has some
    advantages like multiple PCI-X busses, but it's going to be very hard to
    justify the extra $17,000 for that.
    I'm betting PC's with Hypertransport will also be very competitive for a low
    price against a Tezro with Ati graphics.

    Mark



  6. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In article <3f12e5c4$0$49110$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>,
    Mark Hellegers wrote:
    >In message , David Evans wrote:
    >> Surely, if the PC provides the same functionality for much less then that
    >> would be the way to go. However, it's not necessarily the case: if I build
    >> an appropriate PCI-X (or AGP or whatever) bridge and stuck that graphcs card
    >> in an Amiga 3000 I could claim to have "the same graphics" but I bet it
    >> would
    >> not be a real blazer. :-)

    >
    >Well, that's obviously a silly comparison.


    Obviously. That was my point.

    >A not so silly comparison would be
    >comparing it to the Apple G5 for example. You can get Ati graphics for that, it
    >has much faster processors and it also has a good architecture.
    >An G5 with dual 2 Ghz processors costs $3,000.


    Can you actually buy one yet and have it show up? Of course, I'm not
    certain that you can get a Tezro to show up either, so we may be comparing
    vapourware. :-)

    >I'm betting PC's with Hypertransport will also be very competitive for a low
    >price against a Tezro with Ati graphics.
    >


    You may be right. But having SGI-designed graphics hardware doesn't
    automatically make that issue go away.

    --
    David Evans (NeXTMail/MIME OK) dfevans@bbcr.uwaterloo.ca
    Ph.D. Candidate, Computer/Synth Junkie http://bbcr.uwaterloo.ca/~dfevans/
    University of Waterloo "Default is the value selected by the composer
    Ontario, Canada overridden by your command." - Roland TR-707 Manual

  7. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In message <3F12F1FC.2DB2FDA1@sympatico.ca>, John-Paul Stewart wrote:
    > Mark Hellegers wrote:
    > >
    > > In message , David Evans wrote:
    > > > In article ,
    > > > Markus Kummerer wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > >According to Heise Online (http://www.heise.de), SGI´s upcoming

    > product,
    > > > >which they name "Onyx4 UlitmateVision", is going to use ATI Graphics

    > Chips.
    > > > >The site also claims, that an ATI Graphics Chip will be available for

    > the
    > > > >"Tezro" Visual Workstation in 2004.
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > Hardly a new concept; the RealityEngine used Intel i860s to do number
    > > > crunching rather than some ASIC.
    > > >

    > >
    > > This is a bit different. Sgi using Ati graphics is like HP selling Epson
    > > printers. If they'll fit the Tezro with Ati graphics, why should a

    > customer pay
    > > $20,000 when they can get a PC with the same graphics for much less ?
    > > Using commodity hardware hasn't worked well for Sgi so far.
    > >
    > > I sure hope they'll still do their own graphics. It's what makes it a

    > Silicon
    > > Graphics workstation. VPro V12 may be getting old, but I can't imagine

    > that
    > > they haven't done anything in the 2 years that it was released.

    >
    > Wait a minute...the Tezro is currently offered only with V12 graphics.
    > The reference to ATI chips pertains to the Onyx4 UltimateVision system
    > with an ATI-based solution for Tezro in 2004. (At least AFAICT.)


    Yes, that's how I read it as well.

    > That certainly makes it sound like the ATI-based UltimateVision is a
    > rather high-end offering (above V12 and perhaps replacing
    > InfiniteReality). I can't find any detailed info on the SGI website
    > about UltimateVision, but I can't help but wonder if it uses multiple,
    > parallel ATI chips (the same way RE used multiple i860s). That would
    > certainly justify its high-end market positioning over a commodity PC
    > with ATI graphics.


    For the UltimateVision yes, but the way I read it, they'll put a standard Ati
    graphics card in the Tezro next year.
    As to the UltimateVision replacing InfiniteReality, I don't know. It definitely
    misses several features that IR has and I don't know what they plan to do about
    that.

    Mark


  8. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In news:3F12F1FC.2DB2FDA1@sympatico.ca, John-Paul Stewart wrote:

    > That certainly makes it sound like the ATI-based UltimateVision is a
    > rather high-end offering (above V12 and perhaps replacing
    > InfiniteReality).


    It would seem so. All the press releases make sure to point out the OV
    is way faster and much cheaper than IR4. Plus they're saying things
    like 'the Onyx4 UltimateVision family delivers the most powerful
    visualization solution on the planet.' And they've made it hard(er) to
    find the old Onyx3x0(0)/IR/IP stuff on the website.

    > I can't find any detailed info on the SGI website about
    > UltimateVision, but I can't help but wonder if it uses multiple,
    > parallel ATI chips (the same way RE used multiple i860s). That would
    > certainly justify its high-end market positioning over a commodity PC
    > with ATI graphics.


    This maybe true, I'd like to see the 'Users Manual' for this.

    Though, after reading the available info, it would appear that UV uses
    several ATI-graphics-cards (probably PCI-X?) and a graphics compositor
    in the same manner than InfinitePerformance uses VPro-graphics-cards and
    a graphics compositor. Then my next question would be: are these OEM
    cards from ATI or are these SGI designed cards using ATI chips?

    Chris

    --
    #include
    cm007i@hotmail.com



  9. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    On Mon, 14 Jul 2003 20:04:21 +0200,
    Mark Hellegers , in
    <3f12eeea$0$49116$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl> wrote:
    +> In message , David Evans wrote:

    +> > >An G5 with dual 2 Ghz processors costs $3,000.

    +> > Can you actually buy one yet and have it show up? Of course, I'm not
    +> > certain that you can get a Tezro to show up either, so we may be comparing
    +> > vapourware. :-)
    +>
    +> Probably, yes.
    +> I think the Apple system will be available in August.

    You can go to apple's online store and configure one, but the
    estimated ship month is August. I walked a "dream" configuration up to
    US$13.5K, but it *is* a monster system (dual CPU's, dual 23" LCDs, 8GB
    of memory)

    Power Mac G5 Dual 2GHz $8,223.00 $8,223.00
    2x250GB Serial ATA - 7200rpm 065-4287
    8GB DDR400 SDRAM (PC3200) - 8x1GB 065-4360
    Accessory kit 065-4159
    AirPort Extreme Card 065-4293
    Dual 2GHz PowerPC G5 065-4227
    Bluetooth Module 065-4292
    SuperDrive (DVD-R/CD-RW) 065-4168
    ATI Radeon 9800 Pro 065-4288
    Apple Keyboard & Apple Mouse - U.S. English 065-4161
    Fibre Channel PCI Card 0Z065-4523
    56k V.92 internal modem 065-4166
    Mac OS X - U.S. English 065-4160

    iPod - 30GB M8948LL/A $499.00

    Logitech Z-680 THX 5.1 Speakers & Monster 2-meter Cable
    B7749LL/A $343.95


    Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel) M8537ZM/A
    Same day $1,999.00

    APP for Power Mac (w/ or w/o display) - Enrollment Kit
    M8850LL/A $249.00

    Apple Cinema HD Display (23" flat panel) + Apple DVI to ADC
    Adapter B6703LL/A $2,098.00

    Subtotal Please note that your subtotal does not include sales
    tax or rebates. $13,411.95

    *drool*

    James
    --
    Consulting Minister for Consultants, DNRC
    I can please only one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow
    isn't looking good, either.
    I am BOFH. Resistance is futile. Your network will be assimilated.

  10. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    John-Paul Stewart wrote in message news:<3F12F1FC.2DB2FDA1@sympatico.ca>...
    > I can't find any detailed info on the SGI website
    > about UltimateVision, but I can't help but wonder if it uses multiple,
    > parallel ATI chips (the same way RE used multiple i860s). That would
    > certainly justify its high-end market positioning over a commodity PC
    > with ATI graphics.


    It can, just like Infinite Performance did with V12 pipes.

    InfinitePerformance and UltimateVision systems can have gobs of pipes.
    These pipes can work independently, each driving one or two channels
    of graphics. Or, each pipe can each work on a different segment (or
    layer) of a composite channel. There is a special compositing engine
    brick that can be used in both InfinitePerformance and UltimateVision
    systems. Both are fully supported with SGI's various toolkits,
    including and especially OpenGL Performer.

    UltimateVision has advantages of newer silicon, including programable
    shaders and other goodies. I also belive there are (or will be) more
    flexibility and options for the compositor brick when used with UV.

  11. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Mark Hellegers wrote:
    >
    > This is a bit different. Sgi using Ati graphics is like HP selling Epson
    > printers. If they'll fit the Tezro with Ati graphics, why should a customer
    > pay $20,000 when they can get a PC with the same graphics for much less ?


    I suppose SGI won't just put an off the shelf ATI card in Tezro.
    Just like UltimateVision isn't an off the shelf ATI "card".

    --
    Disclaimer: me and my employer never agree.
    "I want a sitting duck serving as a scapegoat for my guinea pig!"

  12. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    On Tue, 15 Jul 2003 15:15:52 +0100, Ian Mapleson wrote:
    > Mark Hellegers wrote:
    >> It's Sgi's job to convince people that the features are handy. ...

    > That's nonsense. It's not SGI's job to make people buy stuff they don't need.


    ACK. It's SGIs job to build the stuff the people need.

    > The modeling people I support at work do not need 48bit colour or OGL ARB
    > imaging. They need *speed*.


    But I think that has also been said.

    > What you're suggesting as a company ethos totally
    > flies in the face of what SGI is all about, namely helping people solve their
    > problems. Shoving features down the throats of those who don't need them is
    > the kind of thing marketing people would like to do, but it doesn't help
    > solve real-world problems.


    Actually... in a rather theoretical environment marketing is about what
    I have written above. It's a pity that reality is far from that theory.

    > I'm dumbstruck that you would think it's that simple. And how do you know
    > whether the dev cost of VPro has been recouped?



    Just increase the MHz of the GPU. Can't be that hard. Intel is doing
    that to their CPUs for ages.


    I've snipped a lot here. In general I agree with you and think that the
    currently releases show that SGI is seriously trying to get a hold of
    their share of the market.

    >> The only thing they still have, are the large single image systems, but
    >> that can't be enough to make them a profit for a company this size.

    >
    > How the hell do you know? Show us your detailed financial analysis based on
    > SGIs sector/product income.


    A while ago it seemed they were moving into a position from which SGI
    was only dealing with highend customers, that require *big* systems. The
    current product line shows otherwise though. Sure they still aim at the
    highend, but they are providing solutions beyond numbercrunching an a
    real big scale.


    Gerhard

  13. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Markus Kummerer wrote:
    >
    > Call me ignorant, but the Tezro tower design is just plain ugly. To me it
    > looks like the plastic box you get at Walmart if you buy 6 Cokes at once.
    > IMO this is not how a premium workstation should look like, why not keep the
    > Fuel chassis?


    I couldn't help thinking the same. It looks somehow cheap. My friend
    said like a cheap sub-woofer.

    --
    / http://www.fishpool.com/~setok/

  14. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In message <3f1432fe$0$49098$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Mark Hellegers wrote:

    [snip the whole lot]

    You know. Every once in a while I make a stupid mistake.
    And this little thread is definitely one of them.
    I should have known better than to argue like this. I don't like it myself.

    I do like the new systems. I think the new case for Tezro looks great, although
    I'm wondering where they left the power button.
    The internal design for the Tezro also looks like great quality work. I hope it
    does well and gets them a bit of marketshare back in the workstation market.

    I would like to know how the Tezro compares to for example the G5 from Apple.
    What it's advantages are and where the competition does better. What the price
    difference gives you extra.
    Just this time a real discussion with some technical data to back it up with.

    I do hope someone will still want to help me with my iflFormat questions even
    though I made this stupid mistake.

    Mark


  15. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Mark Hellegers writes:
    > This is a bit different. Sgi using Ati graphics is like HP selling
    > Epson printers. If they'll fit the Tezro with Ati graphics, why
    > should a customer pay $20,000 when they can get a PC with the same
    > graphics for much less ? Using commodity hardware hasn't worked well
    > for Sgi so far.


    You are aware that HP builds its LaserJet printers around Canon
    internals? But to me that's not important: the superior (third party)
    software support for LaserJets always puts them on a list for buying
    decisions. I know there is people all worried about print quality,
    but all functional Laser printers I have used so far provide
    acceptable quality for me (text documents only).

    > I sure hope they'll still do their own graphics. It's what makes it
    > a Silicon Graphics workstation. VPro V12 may be getting old, but I
    > can't imagine that they haven't done anything in the 2 years that it
    > was released.


    IMHO what one can achieve with SGIs makes them worth their price, not
    necessarily the parts they are built from.

    Thomas Jahns
    --
    "Computers are good at following instructions,
    but not at reading your mind."
    D. E. Knuth, The TeXbook, Addison-Wesley 1984, 1986, 1996, p. 9

  16. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Ian Mapleson wrote:
    >
    > I highly doubt it's an off the shelf card. As I have learned when talking
    > to someone at SGI about their Gbit cards, when SGI takes something 'off the
    > shelf' and uses it, all sort of other issues come into play, such as being
    > able to drive the tech so much faster than a PC that it requires better
    > cooling/sinks, better/enhanced drivers, extrra work to handle multi-CPU
    > issues,
    > and so on.


    And the ability to genlock the cards, and have them swap buffers in a gang.

    Hardly a problem in a PC (which has one), but these machines come with a
    minimum of two pipelets.


  17. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Mark Hellegers wrote in message news:<3f1486e2$0$49108$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...
    > In message <3f1432fe$0$49098$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Mark Hellegers wrote:
    > I do like the new systems. I think the new case for Tezro looks great although
    > I'm wondering where they left the power button.


    Like Octane, there's a front door on the desktop Tezro. Behind the
    door is everything you'll find on the front of the rackmount Tezro:
    DVD-ROM drive (though desktop Tezro uses a full size drive), two
    front-removable hard drive sleds, L1 LCD display, power button, NMI
    button.

  18. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Ian Mapleson wrote in message news:...
    >
    > Mostly just Quadro stuff, or even generic Ti4600 or newer FXs, etc. plus
    > equivalent Radeons (though maybe less so for ATI as fokl say they're
    > less reliable), and then there are the Wildcat for the more serious
    > folks, XEON setups, etc.


    The monster Wildcat chipsets aren't as impressive as they once were,
    too much time passes between their product updated. In fact, there are
    rumors floating around suggesting that the next-gen Wildcat will be a
    single chip design, mixing traditional Wildcat with the existing
    single-chip "value" Wildcat VP series. Long term it's belived that
    Wildcats will join the single-chip ATI FireGL & NVIDIA Quadro 3D war.

  19. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    Mark Hellegers wrote in message news:<3f15cd61$0$49109$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...
    > In message <66ce502.0307160627.5ca540d3@posting.google.com>, Colin Anderson
    > wrote:
    > > Mark Hellegers wrote in message
    > > news:<3f1486e2$0$49108$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>...
    > > > In message <3f1432fe$0$49098$e4fe514c@news.xs4all.nl>, Mark Hellegers

    > wrote:
    > > > I do like the new systems. I think the new case for Tezro looks great

    > although
    > > > I'm wondering where they left the power button.

    > >
    > > Like Octane, there's a front door on the desktop Tezro. Behind the
    > > door is everything you'll find on the front of the rackmount Tezro:
    > > DVD-ROM drive (though desktop Tezro uses a full size drive), two
    > > front-removable hard drive sleds, L1 LCD display, power button, NMI
    > > button.

    >
    > Ah, of course. One last stupid question. I've been a bit confused with what
    > processors are available. The spec sheet says it can contain 1, 2 or 4 R16000
    > 700Mhz processors or 1 or 2 R16000 600Mhz processors.
    > Now I've read somewhere that the tower version could only contain 2 processors
    > and the fxguide article mentions that the single processor version contains a
    > R14000 600Mhz processor.
    > Can I just assume the spec sheet is the definitive guide here ?


    I belive the spec sheet is correct. The tower/desktop model can indeed
    have 4 processors. I have personally used 2p and 4p R16K/700 desktop
    models.

  20. Re: SGI using ATI Chips?

    In message <3F15DF82.7080909@brussels.sgi.com>, Alexis Cousein wrote:
    > Alexis Cousein wrote:
    > >> and the fxguide article mentions that the single processor version
    > >> contains a
    > >> R14000 600Mhz processor.

    > >

    > Ack - Phht. failed to read that. R14K had two clock speeds - 400 and 500MHz.
    > It is a R16K 600 MHz.


    Hmm, spec.org has results for R14K 600Mhz machines and I do recall the R16K
    debuting at 700Mhz. Did you clock it down ?

    Minor issue, I know. Just curious.

    Mark


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