I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me: - SGI

This is a discussion on I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me: - SGI ; > > That last sentence is sad, it really is. There's no reason for it > > except for a few l33t d00dz trying to "prove" how k3wl they are to the > > other l33t d00dz. > > I'm ...

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Thread: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

  1. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    > > That last sentence is sad, it really is. There's no reason for it
    > > except for a few l33t d00dz trying to "prove" how k3wl they are to the
    > > other l33t d00dz.

    >
    > I'm sure you realise how old RFC1855 is -- you'll know that the concepts
    > of RTFM, trolling and flame wars predate k3wl l33t doodz by a few decades.


    Technically speaking (or writing in this case), the earliest reference to
    docs in RFC1855 is early '90s... and "k3wl l33t" came to be out of PC-script
    kiddies wanting to be "eleet", which is a term we used in the scene all the
    way back in mid '80s. The cracking + demo scene predates even that RFC by
    almost seven years, because the terminology was used back in '86 and onward.
    By this I'm referring only to the C= 64 and C= Amiga specific vernacular,
    and not to Richard Stallman's hackers.

    Like I wrote before, roughly 20 years.



  2. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 19:31:02 +0200, "UNIX admin"
    wrote:

    >Now that's what I'd call doing your homework on stuff. If you don't mind me
    >asking (I'll shut up if I'm asking too much), are you a sysadmin?


    Yes, I am a system administrator by trade. Mostly IRIX and Solaris,
    with a dash of linux on the side. I don't claim to be highly
    experienced or anything, tho. If you Google USENET for
    "xiombarg@io.com" in the same context as I did Josh (comp.*
    heirarchy), you'll mostly find me asking a lot of stupid questions.

    >If your guesses are correct, a big ego + impatience + obvious lack of
    >willingness to study documentation would indeed fall into the "developer"
    >category.


    Heh. No comment.

    -Kirt

  3. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:23:58 GMT, "<<>>" wrote:

    >Josh McKee wrote:
    >
    >> Yep. I realize I'm fighting a losing battle.

    >
    >Then you're doubly stupid to continue.
    >
    > > You can't hold a mature discussion with immature people
    > > such as yourself.

    >
    >We aren't having a discussion thank god. I haven't even posted to your
    >original thread. I thought maybe you'd shut up if someone told you to
    >chill. No big deal, it's not hard to ignore someone who is useless on
    >USENET. And the posts you are putting up are useless to others in this
    >group


    It's amazing how I'm faulted for asking a legitimate question yet not
    a word is said about someone who intentionally started a thread to
    mock me. Is mocking someone in this group considered useful
    information to other members of this group? Some people,have implied
    that I'm wasting people's time by having not performed my research in
    a specific order. Yet they don't seem to take issue with a thread that
    had no purpose what-so-ever except to mock another person. Why aren't
    these people being faulted?

    Josh


  4. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 03:25:42 GMT, "<<>>" wrote:

    >Let's look at this little exchange:
    >
    >Josh McKee wrote:
    >> On Wed, 21 Jul 2004 02:29:31 GMT, "<<>>" wrote:
    >>> Josh McKee wrote:
    >>>> Michael J. Sherman wrote:
    >>>>> Assam Syrix wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> Can anybody tell me which command to type to display the contents
    >>>>>> of a directory in a shell? [...]
    >>>>>
    >>>>> You must be joking.
    >>>>
    >>>>The sad thing is that he's not.
    >>>
    >>> Mr. Syrix is a regular in the groups. Or at least I recall reading
    >>> many of his posts. His post is intended as a parody of yours, and
    >>> with it he is trying to mock you. [...]

    >>
    >> That's what makes it sad idiot.
    >>
    >> Josh

    >
    >First it was sad ("the sad thing") that he *was not* joking.


    I don't consider it a joke. I consider it to be belittling which is
    not the same thing as joking.

    >Then the fact that he *was* joking is what "makes it sad".
    >
    >And then a little insult, probably because you were feeling stupid right
    >about then.


    Just making observations...just as UNIX admin...he'll confirm it.

    >Any how, these threads don't make you look very smart or coherent.


    I'm not surprised. Since people asssumed that I had no clue about UNIX
    merely for asking a question I wouldn't consider them to be a good
    judge of charater. Just a bunch of vultures looking for a kill.

    >Seems like you attack anyone in the group who bothers to respond to you.


    It depends on how they respond. Can you blame me for being a little
    hostile? Being nice certainly didn't work.

    > I guess what I'm trying to say is that you're the idiot here.


    As are you.

    Josh

  5. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:55 -0400, Kirt Dankmyer
    wrote:

    >Hmmm, I have to admit that I'm coming in late to this, but I find it
    >very amusing. I went back and looked up Josh's original thread as
    >well. Very interesting, and it makes this thread even funnier.
    >
    >I decided to take Josh up on his original suggestion and Google him,
    >in part to determine the answer to the question about what flavours of
    >UNIX he was familiar with that he refused to answer.
    >
    >He cetainly does do a lot of posting. Here's a smattering of the
    >groups he's been posting to (sticking to the comp.* heirarchy):


    As I said...a little to much posting in the comp.sys.mac.advocacy. I
    gave it up over a year ago when I realized how much I had been doing.
    Recently most of my involvement with USENET has been in the UNIX (and
    some AS/400) newsgroups helping people or asking for help.

    >comp.sys.mac.advocacy
    >comp.unix.misc
    >comp.sys.sun.admin
    >comp.lang.c++
    >comp.programming
    >comp.multimedia
    >comp.sys.sun.wanted
    >comp.os.linux.advocacy
    >comp.lang.pascal
    >comp.sys.sun.hardware
    >comp.unix.bsd.freebsd
    >comp.groupware.lotus-notes
    >
    >Now, looking at the frequency of posting in a given newsgroup and the
    >nature of said posts, I'd make a few guesses about Josh. I freely
    >admit these are only guesses, based on limited knowlege.
    >
    >1. Josh likes to argue.


    I like to debate. And I did so in comp.sys.mac.advocacy. A forum where
    that is the norm. Sometimes, on occasion, I have engaged in debates
    outside of comp.sys.mac.advocacy. But this is the exception not the
    norm.

    >His... touchy... behavior here has been consistent with his behavior on
    >comp.sys.mac.advocacy


    Why would you expect it to be different?

    >... Frankly, I wish he wouldn't bring that style of discourse here,


    I didn't bring it here. It was Norm Dresner, UNIX admin, and Assam
    Syrix who exhibited that behavior. Especially Assam. Was there any
    point to his post other than to mock me? If not they why aren't you
    stating that you wish Assam wouldn't bring that style of discourse
    here? Why am I being singled out merely because I asked someone not to
    respond if they were going to belittle me?

    I asked a question related to the focus of this newsgroup and
    immediately, without provocation, got belittled. I politely responded
    to the person doing the belittling requesting that they not answer if
    what they were going to do was belittle. Why is this such a crime in
    this newsgroup?

    >but that's really his perogative, and it isn't like he hasn't been egged on.
    >
    >2. Josh's primary UNIX experience is with Solaris. I'll note that
    >"uname -a" does what Josh expects under Solaris. Of course, as many
    >have pointed out, different version of of UNIX behave differently when
    >it comes to these things, and it only takes a second to check a man
    >page.
    >
    >Why Josh was afraid to own up to his experience being mainly Solaris,
    >I dunno.


    It's not relevant. I explained that I didn't have an IRIX system
    readily available to check the man pages and that's why I asked the
    question. That's all that mattered. Yet that wasn't good enough for
    people here...they had to continue insisting that I was lying. Why?

    >He does seem to have some experience with the free UNIX
    >flavors like linux and Free BSD.
    >
    >3. I was going to claim that Josh is obviously a Mac user given the
    >sheer number of posts on comp.sys.mac.advocacy, but, frankly, those
    >posts were so convoluted and nit-picking (in my humble opinion)


    Unfortunately that's what ultimately happens on comp.sys.mac.advocacy.
    I try my best to not engage in it. But when someone like UNIX admin
    decides to be pedantic that's what happens.

    >that it was tough to tell what Josh's opinion on a given issue was, other
    >than his opponents were idiots.


    When the shoe fits.

    >See point 1. At least on comp.sys.mac.advocacy, they seem to be used to Josh's... unique...
    >form of discourse.
    >
    >I CAN conclude, however, that Josh does a bit of programming as part
    >of his job.


    Not a single bit.

    >In fact, if he primarily considers himself a programmer
    >rather than an administrator,


    Never been a programmer. I have been an administrator. I've moved on
    since then.

    See what happens when you think you know something about someone but
    you really don't? You've formed an opinion and you couldn't be further
    from the truth with your conclusions. Certain people, hell bent on
    belittling me, did exactly what you did. Read a post, formed a
    conclusion from that post, and concluded I was a UNIX newbie. When
    told otherwise they ignored that information instead opting to insist
    that they were right based on their rational for why anyone would ask
    a "newbie" question when they could look it up in a man page. They
    didn't bother to listen to the reason that I *told* them. It really is
    sad.

    Josh

  6. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    Josh Mckee wrote:

    > On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:55 -0400, Kirt Dankmyer
    > wrote:
    >
    > >1. Josh likes to argue.

    >
    > I like to debate. And I did so in comp.sys.mac.advocacy. A forum where
    > that is the norm. Sometimes, on occasion, I have engaged in debates
    > outside of comp.sys.mac.advocacy. But this is the exception not the
    > norm.


    oh come on. this is not a debate, it's a worthless pissing match. just give it up.
    there's far more interesting things to waste our time on, like ..... uh.... linux!

    Josh you are kindly invited to TUXITUP!



  7. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:35:47 GMT, SkyWriter
    wrote:

    >Josh Mckee wrote:
    >
    >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:55 -0400, Kirt Dankmyer
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >1. Josh likes to argue.

    >>
    >> I like to debate. And I did so in comp.sys.mac.advocacy. A forum where
    >> that is the norm. Sometimes, on occasion, I have engaged in debates
    >> outside of comp.sys.mac.advocacy. But this is the exception not the
    >> norm.

    >
    >oh come on. this is not a debate, it's a worthless pissing match. just give it up.


    You're free to just ignore it. But I ask again: Why am I being singled
    out? I did give it up. And then someone began this thread. Was this
    person ganged up on for wasting peoples time? Why...no, no they
    weren't. For some reason it's not wasting people's time when you're
    mocking someone.

    >there's far more interesting things to waste our time on, like ..... uh.... linux!


    Apparently there aren't. This subject was interesting enough for
    someone to start a completely new thread. Yet we don't see you
    faulting them for having started it. Why?

    Josh

  8. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    Josh McKee wrote:

    > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:35:47 GMT, SkyWriter
    > wrote:
    >
    > >Josh Mckee wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:55 -0400, Kirt Dankmyer
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >1. Josh likes to argue.
    > >>
    > >> I like to debate. And I did so in comp.sys.mac.advocacy. A forum where
    > >> that is the norm. Sometimes, on occasion, I have engaged in debates
    > >> outside of comp.sys.mac.advocacy. But this is the exception not the
    > >> norm.

    > >
    > >oh come on. this is not a debate, it's a worthless pissing match. just give it up.

    >
    > You're free to just ignore it. But I ask again: Why am I being singled
    > out? I did give it up. And then someone began this thread. Was this
    > person ganged up on for wasting peoples time? Why...no, no they
    > weren't. For some reason it's not wasting people's time when you're
    > mocking someone.


    my perogative.

    >
    >
    > >there's far more interesting things to waste our time on, like ..... uh.... linux!

    >
    > Apparently there aren't. This subject was interesting enough for
    > someone to start a completely new thread. Yet we don't see you
    > faulting them for having started it. Why?
    >


    perhaps i haven't followed the nonsense closely enough to notice it.

    >
    > Josh



  9. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    "UNIX admin" writes:


    >> I decided to take Josh up on his original suggestion and Google him,
    >> in part to determine the answer to the question about what flavours of
    >> UNIX he was familiar with that he refused to answer.


    >Now that's what I'd call doing your homework on stuff. If you don't mind me
    >asking (I'll shut up if I'm asking too much), are you a sysadmin?


    >If your guesses are correct, a big ego + impatience + obvious lack of
    >willingness to study documentation would indeed fall into the "developer"
    >category.


    Well, I for one am impressed with Josh's persistence and resilience. His
    ability to hammer away this long without coming up for air and the above
    qualities - I'd say he'd be a 'project manager' at least.

    Cheers
    barefoot

  10. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    > Just making observations...just as UNIX admin...he'll confirm it.

    Well, just one detail... I made no conflicting observations.



  11. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    > Why would you expect it to be different?

    Why not? Take it easy, relax.

    > I didn't bring it here. It was Norm Dresner, UNIX admin, and Assam
    > Syrix who exhibited that behavior. Especially Assam. Was there any


    Here is the ironic part: it would never occur to me to write that I'm an
    expert at UNIX.

    > I asked a question related to the focus of this newsgroup and
    > immediately, without provocation, got belittled. I politely responded
    > to the person doing the belittling requesting that they not answer if
    > what they were going to do was belittle. Why is this such a crime in
    > this newsgroup?


    I disagree. Your manner of response was arrogant rather than polite.

    > It's not relevant. I explained that I didn't have an IRIX system
    > readily available to check the man pages and that's why I asked the
    > question. That's all that mattered. Yet that wasn't good enough for
    > people here...they had to continue insisting that I was lying. Why?


    1. if you don't have access to man pages there is always
    http://techpubs.sgi.com/ ... with complete manpages online
    2. if you don't have access to the internet, intelligence + experience
    dictates that, if I purposely malform a command by giving it a bogus switch,
    chances are, in most cases you'll get the usage of that command back. Then
    it's just a matter of finding out what those switches do, and with `uname`
    that's trivial, and MUCH faster then the time it would have taken someone
    from a newsgroup to respond.

    So, putting what we have here in practice:

    host 2# uname -Z
    Illegal option -- Z
    Usage:
    uname [-snrvmpadR]
    uname [-S system name]
    uname [-V INSTVERSIONNUM]

    Whaddaya know? All the switches are there. I have a rough idea of what
    `uname -r` may produce, so then, what would "-R" do?

    > Never been a programmer. I have been an administrator. I've moved on
    > since then.


    It ceirtanly does make one wonder what kind of an administrator you were.

    > See what happens when you think you know something about someone but
    > you really don't? You've formed an opinion and you couldn't be further
    > from the truth with your conclusions. Certain people, hell bent on
    > belittling me, did exactly what you did. Read a post, formed a
    > conclusion from that post, and concluded I was a UNIX newbie. When
    > told otherwise they ignored that information instead opting to insist
    > that they were right based on their rational for why anyone would ask
    > a "newbie" question when they could look it up in a man page. They
    > didn't bother to listen to the reason that I *told* them. It really is
    > sad.


    I've seen enough in my lifetime to be able to distinguish levels of skill.
    I've had the privilege of working side by side with some of the finest UNIX
    admins in the industry, and those guys could really claim that UNIX is "old
    hat" to them. And you my man, for claiming UNIX is "old hat" to you, have
    some ways to go yet.
    You'll probably take this the wrong way.



  12. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    > Unfortunately that's what ultimately happens on comp.sys.mac.advocacy.
    > I try my best to not engage in it. But when someone like UNIX admin
    > decides to be pedantic that's what happens.


    I'm pedantic. I don't do half-ass 'hack jobs' that'll need babysat later
    when stuff starts busting.



  13. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    In article <41005352.A900BB28@mrnutty.com>,
    SkyWriter wrote:

    > Josh McKee wrote:
    >
    > > On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 01:35:47 GMT, SkyWriter
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > >Josh Mckee wrote:
    > > >
    > > >> On Thu, 22 Jul 2004 10:01:55 -0400, Kirt Dankmyer
    > > >> wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >> >1. Josh likes to argue.
    > > >>
    > > >> I like to debate. And I did so in comp.sys.mac.advocacy. A forum where
    > > >> that is the norm. Sometimes, on occasion, I have engaged in debates
    > > >> outside of comp.sys.mac.advocacy. But this is the exception not the
    > > >> norm.
    > > >
    > > >oh come on. this is not a debate, it's a worthless pissing match. just
    > > >give it up.

    > >
    > > You're free to just ignore it. But I ask again: Why am I being singled
    > > out? I did give it up. And then someone began this thread. Was this
    > > person ganged up on for wasting peoples time? Why...no, no they
    > > weren't. For some reason it's not wasting people's time when you're
    > > mocking someone.

    >
    > my perogative.


    Exactly.

    > > >there's far more interesting things to waste our time on, like .....
    > > >uh.... linux!

    > >
    > > Apparently there aren't. This subject was interesting enough for
    > > someone to start a completely new thread. Yet we don't see you
    > > faulting them for having started it. Why?
    > >

    >
    > perhaps i haven't followed the nonsense closely enough to notice it.


    It's this very thread.

    Josh

  14. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    In article <4100a9b2$0$1959$5402220f@news.sunrise.ch>,
    "UNIX admin" wrote:

    > > Just making observations...just as UNIX admin...he'll confirm it.

    >
    > Well, just one detail... I made no conflicting observations.


    Did I say that you did?

    Josh

  15. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    On Fri, 23 Jul 2004 08:50:07 +0200, "UNIX admin"
    wrote:

    >> Why would you expect it to be different?

    >
    >Why not? Take it easy, relax.
    >
    >> I didn't bring it here. It was Norm Dresner, UNIX admin, and Assam
    >> Syrix who exhibited that behavior. Especially Assam. Was there any

    >
    >Here is the ironic part: it would never occur to me to write that I'm an
    >expert at UNIX.


    Your point?

    >> I asked a question related to the focus of this newsgroup and
    >> immediately, without provocation, got belittled. I politely responded
    >> to the person doing the belittling requesting that they not answer if
    >> what they were going to do was belittle. Why is this such a crime in
    >> this newsgroup?

    >
    >I disagree. Your manner of response was arrogant rather than polite.


    What specifics of my response led you to believe that I was being
    arrogant?

    >> It's not relevant. I explained that I didn't have an IRIX system
    >> readily available to check the man pages and that's why I asked the
    >> question. That's all that mattered. Yet that wasn't good enough for
    >> people here...they had to continue insisting that I was lying. Why?

    >
    >1. if you don't have access to man pages there is always
    >http://techpubs.sgi.com/ ... with complete manpages online


    I also have access to this newsgroup. Therefore I asked the question
    in this newsgroup.

    >2. if you don't have access to the internet, intelligence + experience
    >dictates that, if I purposely malform a command by giving it a bogus switch,
    >chances are, in most cases you'll get the usage of that command back. Then
    >it's just a matter of finding out what those switches do, and with `uname`
    >that's trivial, and MUCH faster then the time it would have taken someone
    >from a newsgroup to respond.
    >
    >So, putting what we have here in practice:
    >
    >host 2# uname -Z
    >Illegal option -- Z
    >Usage:
    > uname [-snrvmpadR]
    > uname [-S system name]
    > uname [-V INSTVERSIONNUM]
    >
    >Whaddaya know? All the switches are there. I have a rough idea of what
    >`uname -r` may produce, so then, what would "-R" do?


    How many times do you have to be told that I did not have an IRIX
    system readily available?

    >> Never been a programmer. I have been an administrator. I've moved on
    >> since then.

    >
    >It ceirtanly does make one wonder what kind of an administrator you were.
    >
    >> See what happens when you think you know something about someone but
    >> you really don't? You've formed an opinion and you couldn't be further
    >> from the truth with your conclusions. Certain people, hell bent on
    >> belittling me, did exactly what you did. Read a post, formed a
    >> conclusion from that post, and concluded I was a UNIX newbie. When
    >> told otherwise they ignored that information instead opting to insist
    >> that they were right based on their rational for why anyone would ask
    >> a "newbie" question when they could look it up in a man page. They
    >> didn't bother to listen to the reason that I *told* them. It really is
    >> sad.

    >
    >I've seen enough in my lifetime to be able to distinguish levels of skill.


    Apparently not. You concluded that I had no UNIX skills because I
    didn't use the man pages to determine the answer to my question.
    Instead of realizing that there are any number of reasons, one of
    which I told you, why someone might not have used the man pages you
    assumed (something you said no good UNIX admin would do because it was
    one of the fudamental rules of good system adminsitration not to do
    it) that I was inexperienced despite my having told you otherwise.

    >I've had the privilege of working side by side with some of the finest UNIX
    >admins in the industry, and those guys could really claim that UNIX is "old
    >hat" to them. And you my man, for claiming UNIX is "old hat" to you, have
    >some ways to go yet.


    This from someone who breaks out a PC versus SGI argument when the
    person responding to you mentioned nothing about PC's. You conclusions
    mean nothing. It's obvious that you have an inferiority complex thus
    your need to belittle people. You've demonstrated your inability to
    reach acurate conclusions. You've made conclusions about my knowledge
    which have been demonstrated to be completely in error. Instead of
    admitting your mistake you continue your diatribe as if repeating it
    somehow makes it correct.

    >You'll probably take this the wrong way.


    Still waiting for your answer as to who you had in mind when you made
    the "inDUHvidual" comment. That's OK...we know who it was. I'll let
    you off the hook. No need for me to draw additional attention to your
    lie.

    Josh

  16. Re: I'ma Well Versed UNIX User But This Baffles Me:

    Josh McKee wrote:

    > In article <41005352.A900BB28@mrnutty.com>,
    > SkyWriter wrote:
    >
    >
    > > perhaps i haven't followed the nonsense closely enough to notice it.

    >
    > It's this very thread.
    >
    > Josh


    then perhaps i have followed the nonsense.



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