Which distro? - Setup

This is a discussion on Which distro? - Setup ; Baho Utot wrote: > Jerry Stuckle wrote: > > [putolin] > >>>> No, you are not answering my question. Period. >>>> >>> Yes I did, the same as the others. >>> >>> You don't like the true answer. >>> >>>>> ...

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Thread: Which distro?

  1. Re: Which distro?

    Baho Utot wrote:
    > Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    >
    > [putolin]
    >
    >>>> No, you are not answering my question. Period.
    >>>>
    >>> Yes I did, the same as the others.
    >>>
    >>> You don't like the true answer.
    >>>
    >>>>> If you need to be "the" usenet cop I think alt.www.webmaster is still
    >>>>> open. But I could be wrong as I have not been to that group since you
    >>>>> ran me out.
    >>>>>
    >>>> No, I wasn't the usenet cop. But I did call you on a bunch of crap you
    >>>> posted there. But alt.www.webmaster has been all the better since you
    >>>> left. Thanks for doing so.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>> I will post what I choose, my say so, not yours.
    >>>>>
    >>>> Yea, you never could understand people don't give a **** about what you
    >>>> have to say. But you continue to post it.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Why did you post here if you are so brilliant? All those years of
    >>>>> experience and all.
    >>>>>
    >>>> Because I was looking for help from someone intelligent. Of course,
    >>>> that leaves you out.
    >>>>
    >>>>> You already knew the answer before you asked, so did you come here to
    >>>>> pester people or bully?
    >>>>>
    >>>> No, I didn't. Which is why I came here asking the question. But you
    >>>> have not answered it.
    >>> Yes I did, you just didn't like the answer.
    >>>
    >>> Lets recap. You came here to find a "public available distro" that
    >>> doesn't
    >>> have a package manager. Which doesn't exist, So I gave you a workable
    >>> solution (Arch Linux with ABS) so as custom built packages will integrate
    >>> nicely without too much work and all you want to do is run your mouth.
    >>>
    >>> Pretty close to true?
    >>>

    >> Completely wrong. But you're too stoopid to realize it. It's why we
    >> chased you away from a.w.w.

    >
    > Really?
    >
    > Here is what you posted
    >
    >
    > So, what I'm looking for is a distro where I can install as little as
    > possible - if possible, just the basic OS (with networking, etc.).
    > Additional packages I will compile and install myself.
    >
    > Any suggestions as to which would be the best distro for this?
    >

    >


    Exactly. I said nothing about package managers.

    > Lets see some package manager driven distros fits that with a minimal
    > install.
    >
    > Arch linux... you make you own custom packages and it won't clobber your
    > custom packages on an upgrade. Base install is just GCC tool chain and
    > networking. Fits perfect.
    >
    > DSL maybe fits that question
    >
    > So I did not answer your question?
    >
    > IF I got it wrong then you didn't ask the right question
    >
    > Possible?
    >


    Not at all. I asked the right question. You just can't understand it -
    the same problem which is why we chased you out of a.w.w.

    Forget it, Baho. I'm not interested in what you have to say (actually,
    I never was, but that's another story).

    --
    ==================
    Remove the "x" from my email address
    Jerry Stuckle
    JDS Computer Training Corp.
    jstucklex@attglobal.net
    ==================


  2. Re: Which distro?

    John Hasler wrote:
    > I wrote:
    >> He complained that upgrading packages resulted in dependent packages that
    >> he had hacked being upgraded. That doesn't happen on Stable as the only
    >> "upgrades" there are security fixes which are backported.

    >
    > Baho Utot writes:
    >> Yes but he said a lot of things that don't make sense.

    >
    > This is true.
    >
    >> Sorry my first language is not english it is visayan,

    >
    > Your english is excellent.
    >
    >> That leads me to believe that he simply over wrote the deb version with
    >> his. That's stupid.

    >
    > Remarkably so.


    And completely untrue. But you are so package dependent you would have
    no idea what other things packages do that you aren't aware of.

    Sorry. Seems I came to the wrong place for an intelligent answer.

    I'm gone.

    --
    ==================
    Remove the "x" from my email address
    Jerry Stuckle
    JDS Computer Training Corp.
    jstucklex@attglobal.net
    ==================


  3. Re: Which distro?

    Jerry Stuckle wrote:

    [ ranting deleted ]

    Folks, this is getting destructive. Let's leave this fellow to his odd belief
    that there are any modern distributions, especially Linux, that doesn't
    conflict with his model of how things work.

  4. Re: Which distro?

    Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    > John Hasler wrote:
    >> I wrote:
    >>> He complained that upgrading packages resulted in dependent packages
    >>> that
    >>> he had hacked being upgraded. That doesn't happen on Stable as the only
    >>> "upgrades" there are security fixes which are backported.

    >>
    >> Baho Utot writes:
    >>> Yes but he said a lot of things that don't make sense.

    >>
    >> This is true.
    >>
    >>> Sorry my first language is not english it is visayan,

    >>
    >> Your english is excellent.
    >>
    >>> That leads me to believe that he simply over wrote the deb version with
    >>> his. That's stupid.

    >>
    >> Remarkably so.

    >
    > And completely untrue. But you are so package dependent you would have
    > no idea what other things packages do that you aren't aware of.
    >
    > Sorry. Seems I came to the wrong place for an intelligent answer.
    >
    > I'm gone.
    >


    Nice to see Jerry getting the same treatment he dishes out to everyone
    in Comp.lang.php..


    Jerry is one of those people who is always right.

    Obviously all the ditros are therefore wrong; The answer is simple.
    Jerry should write hos own distro.

  5. Re: Which distro?

    Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    > I'm
    > just wanting to get rid of the @#$% package system. Maybe it's good for
    > you. But it's not for me or my customer.
    >
    > So rather than tell me what I should be doing. How about just answering
    > my basic question?
    >


    A distro without a package management system is, by definition, not a
    distro.


    Perhaps that is the simple concept you have failed to grasp?

  6. Re: Which distro?

    Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    > Hi, all,
    >
    > I've got several VPS's, and have been using Debian on all of them. It's
    > been working fine for me, with the exception of one site.
    >
    > This one site is heavily modified due to some system requirements. Exim
    > recompiled with MySQL support, for instance, and a bunch of other things.
    >
    > As a result, upgrading the system has become a nightmare, because you
    > have to check everything you're going to upgrade to ensure it's not
    > going to break something else.
    >
    > So, what I'm looking for is a distro where I can install as little as
    > possible - if possible, just the basic OS (with networking, etc.).
    > Additional packages I will compile and install myself.
    >
    > Any suggestions as to which would be the best distro for this?
    >


    Jerry

    Slackware. There *is* no package system -- actually, "packages" are just
    tar gz archives. No dependencies; if you break it, you own two (or more)
    pieces.

    It should do. I use it for basing heavily customized systems.



    > TIA.
    >
    >


  7. Re: Which distro?

    Fred Weigel writes:
    > Slackware. There *is* no package system -- actually, "packages" are just
    > tar gz archives.


    Slackware has a packaging system, though it does not provide any help with
    dependencies or conflicts. Upgrades would still overwrite his
    customizations.
    --
    John Hasler
    john@dhh.gt.org
    Dancing Horse Hill
    Elmwood, WI USA

  8. Re: Which distro?

    On 2008-06-16, Fred Weigel wrote:
    >
    > Slackware. There *is* no package system -- actually, "packages" are just
    > tar gz archives. No dependencies; if you break it, you own two (or more)
    > pieces.


    The first part is untrue. There *is* a package system, maintained by
    pkgtool and friends (installpkg, upgradepkg, removepkg). The second
    part is mostly true: it's a specially-created tarball with some extra
    files to help installpkg/upgradepkg do pre- and post-install tasks (if
    needed). The third is completely true: pkgtool does no dependency
    checking whatsoever.

    > It should do. I use it for basing heavily customized systems.


    This is also true. However, if you install your own software which
    overwrites files from an existing package, then do an upgradepkg, your
    custom files will be gone[0]; pkgtool will not even be aware that you've
    done anything, since there's no verification that files on disk match
    what's in the original package. Obviously the wisest course would be to
    install custom software to /usr/local or some such.

    --keith

    [0] one exception is that, for some packages, pkgtool will try to
    save old versions of config files, but you should absolutely not rely on
    this feature unless you've tested it

    --
    kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
    see X- headers for PGP signature information


  9. Re: Which distro?

    The Natural Philosopher wrote:

    [putolin]

    >
    > Nice to see Jerry getting the same treatment he dishes out to everyone
    > in Comp.lang.php..
    >


    He just didn't like the answers he got, nothing unusual for him.

    >
    > Jerry is one of those people who is always right.
    >
    > Obviously all the ditros are therefore wrong; The answer is simple.
    > Jerry should write hos own distro.


    I all ready suggested that to him but as usual I just wasn't good enough.


    I think he just wanted his home work done.

    --
    Tayo'y Mga Pinoy

  10. Re: Which distro?

    Jerry Stuckle illuminated comp.os.linux.setup by typing:

    >
    > I'm not arguing that - it's why I'm asking here which would be the best
    > one. Debian is a problem.


    Heh.

    OK. My suggestion is out of the window then.

    I've seen mention of Arch and Slackware in here. I've not much
    experience with them. But they may be worth a try.

    How about Gentoo server? I know Portage is it's package manager, but it
    does seem to sit right with what you want to do.

    --
    Moog

    “Are you going to come quietly, or do I have to use earplugs?”

  11. Re: Which distro?

    Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:

    > Jerry Stuckle wrote:
    >
    > [ ranting deleted ]
    >
    > Folks, this is getting destructive. Let's leave this fellow to his odd
    > belief that there are any modern distributions, especially Linux, that
    > doesn't conflict with his model of how things work.


    Ah but that is jerry, (If you don't know of him) I left the
    alt.www.webmaster group because of him. He owns that group, or thinks he
    does. In that group it was his way or you can just shut up and leave. At
    least when I tried to participate in that group it was. If you posted
    information from an RFC according to him it was invalid. I found that group
    just wasn't worth the hassle. So I moved along after having been in the
    group for a few years, then he came along.

    I think I saw his original problem....... What I tried to do for him was to
    show him an alternate way but as usual he just insults me.

    Being Filipino, fellows like him are little real bother to us (we some
    Filipinos). Even though, I will try to help if I can, knowing full well it
    probably won't be worth the effort.

    --
    Tayo'y Mga Pinoy

  12. Re: Which distro?

    On Jun 15, 9:36*pm, John Hasler wrote:
    > Nico Kadel-Garcia writes:
    > > My UNIX experience goes back to.... goodness. Minix.

    >
    > And mine goes back to System III and 4.2BSD. *I've administered Unix
    > without package management, and with it. *With is better. *The key word,
    > however, is _with_. *Against won't work.
    >
    > This is for Debian, but the same basic approach will work for any major
    > distribution:
    >
    > 1) Install the Standard system.
    > 2) Install the build-essential package.
    > 3) Remove the package-management packages. *You'll need to use "--force",
    > * *but it can be done.
    > 4) Download, alter, and compile upstream packages to your heart's content.
    > 5) When you need to update any of the packages initially installed in
    > * *step 1 or 2 do as in step 4.
    >
    > Most of us learned to stop pounding our heads against this particular brick
    > wall years ago, but some people evidently enjoy these things...


    This can work short term, but it makes updating component packages for
    security or feature upgrades that you don't have the expertise to
    maintian in-house, such as Perl, PHP, OpenSSL, OpenSSH, Apache, the
    kernel, gcc, or glibc, very awkward. You could save a tarball of such
    a base system for installation of new setups. But when the new PHP or
    Perl tools require other components in place that were not in the
    original distribution, the amount of work can spiral *very* fast.

    Another problem is that all that work we do modifying our particular
    package becomes difficult, if not impossible, to push back upstream to
    the developers. If you can't be bothered to write a working package,
    or at least a usable 'Makefile' or 'install' tool, how can you expect
    someone else like Debian or Mandrake to write their own installer for
    it? I just ran into that with the PHP 'propel' package, which has its
    own special install procedures that don't match anyone else's I've
    ever seen. It gets nasty to integrate tools like that!


  13. Re: Which distro?

    I wrote:
    > This is for Debian, but the same basic approach will work for any major
    > distribution:
    >
    > 1) Install the Standard system.
    > 2) Install the build-essential package.
    > 3) Remove the package-management packages. *You'll need to use "--force",
    > * *but it can be done.
    > 4) Download, alter, and compile upstream packages to your heart's content.
    > 5) When you need to update any of the packages initially installed in
    > * *step 1 or 2 do as in step 4.
    >
    > Most of us learned to stop pounding our heads against this particular brick
    > wall years ago, but some people evidently enjoy these things...


    Nico Kadel-Garcia writes:
    > This can work short term...


    I'm not advocating it: just pointing out that it is possible to achieve his
    goal (which is, IMHO, the wrong approach to his problem).

    > ...but it makes updating component packages for security or feature
    > upgrades that you don't have the expertise to maintian in-house, such as
    > Perl, PHP, OpenSSL, OpenSSH, Apache, the kernel, gcc, or glibc, very
    > awkward.


    You forget that what we have here is an expert in _everything_.


    --
    John Hasler
    john@dhh.gt.org
    Dancing Horse Hill
    Elmwood, WI USA

  14. Re: Which distro?

    Baho Utot wrote:
    > The Natural Philosopher wrote:
    >
    > [putolin]
    >
    >> Nice to see Jerry getting the same treatment he dishes out to everyone
    >> in Comp.lang.php..
    >>

    >
    > He just didn't like the answers he got, nothing unusual for him.
    >
    >> Jerry is one of those people who is always right.
    >>
    >> Obviously all the ditros are therefore wrong; The answer is simple.
    >> Jerry should write hos own distro.

    >
    > I all ready suggested that to him but as usual I just wasn't good enough.
    >
    >
    > I think he just wanted his home work done.
    >


    Indeed ;-)

    Faced with a similar problem years ago,we did in fact effectively 'write
    our own distro'

    WE had a master machine tat we upgraded to latest kernels: then we had a
    scrip which would tar thelot up and shove it onto a slave machine,
    carefully updating all teh new biaries and carefully not stepping on the
    old configuration files.

  15. Re: Which distro?

    Nico Kadel-Garcia writes:

    > No such thing. glibc and shells, documentation tools like 'man', shell
    > utilities such as 'ls' and 'rm', disk partitioning utilities, network
    > utilities, etc. benefit from version management. Without that, you don't
    > have an OS, you have a kernel. And building from *THAT* is probably not
    > in your client's budget.


    There is such a distro: DSLinux.[1] Currently it doesn't have a packaging
    system of it own, and it only comes with a very basic system. This is
    not meant to answer the OP, just the above


    Footnotes:
    [1] http://www.dslinux.org

    --
    Sa Puso't Diwa

  16. Re: Which distro?

    Jerry Stuckle writes:

    > And I get paid big bucks for taking care of the messes idiots like you
    > create.


    So why be here in the first place?

    Don't mind me... just catchin' up...

    --
    Sa Puso't Diwa

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