A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs)... - Setup

This is a discussion on A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs)... - Setup ; A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ... 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The ...

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 14 of 14

Thread: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs)...

  1. A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs)...

    A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: universal
    support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...

    1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk of
    wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most of the
    user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It should take
    several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this. There are not enough
    prompts around for this dangerous operation.

    2. Flash drives only come in select sizes, making them easier to spot
    -- 64, 128, 256, 1024, 2048 ... mb
    -- To optimally install the OS to Flash, some logic will be needed to choose
    the best sector sizes for FAT32 systems, and similar code could be reused
    for NTFS.
    -- Setting the Flash disk to bootable should be handled by the installer
    program as well. Partition Commander etc ... should not be required.
    -- Most CD-ROM and DVD-ROM "ISO" disk image programs on Windows, Mac need to
    make this fix also -- but the "Unix-like" OSes need to make it first.

    3. The "Unix-like" OS installers should support installing to USB, but with
    an NTFS file system preferred over FAT32. Inode file systems and Flash
    Memory have had historic interoperability problems -- and NASA and the ESA
    have not transferred their solutions to the problem to the general public,
    specifically the affected hardware and software producers. I assume the Mars
    Rovers and Cassini use Inode file systems in their flash memory. DVD-ROM
    file systems could be emulated on Flash based data recorders, but I don't
    believe this is done.

    4. Technical note: weather the Flash Memory card reader is mounted via USB /
    Firewire, IDE(?), or whatever else is typical for a PC or workstation ... it
    is very easy to spot on the [universal to most modern OSes] Device Tree --
    thus very little new programming is required. Less than 100k (exec binary
    code) per installer program, most of it related to user interface logic is
    in need of change. PC and MAC ISO CD-ROM & DVD-ROM image writing programs
    may need more or less than a 100k change in their binary sizes to accomplish
    this change.

    5. "ISO" is being used generically here, as there are about 5 kinds of disk
    image formats in use. DMG is used for OSX for example. I am ignoring the
    proprietary disk image formats.

    MP / Power Broadcasting / HireMe.geek.nz


  2. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Max Power schreef:
    > A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    > universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...
    >
    > 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk of
    > wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most of
    > the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It
    > should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this. There
    > are not enough prompts around for this dangerous operation.


    You have a point.

    But many (most) distributions already give the option to install to a
    disk and partition of choice.

    Your claim 'force wiping your HD by default' is in my view only
    applicable to Microsoft products.

    Having a multi-boot system with links to removable media has it's
    challenges, it should not crash when the media is not present.

    A lot of problems could be avoided by fool proof installers but even
    more could be gained by newbies reading TFM.
    I know some people will see that as the typical reason that has held
    back Linux on the Desktop for so many years, yet the world does not need
    an other OS that is wide open to all kinds of abuse.

  3. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
    > Max Power schreef:
    >> A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    >> universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...
    >>
    >> 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk
    >> of wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most
    >> of the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It
    >> should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this.
    >> There are not enough prompts around for this dangerous operation.

    >
    > You have a point.
    >
    > But many (most) distributions already give the option to install to a
    > disk and partition of choice.
    >
    > Your claim 'force wiping your HD by default' is in my view only
    > applicable to Microsoft products.


    The available options could be more gracefully presented. Dealing with the
    boot loaders, in particular is an interesting problem.

    > Having a multi-boot system with links to removable media has it's
    > challenges, it should not crash when the media is not present.


    Oh, don't get me going. I just went through conniptions with an LVM based
    external USB drive, that kept showing up as "inactive" at boot time and
    screwing up RHEL booting.

    > A lot of problems could be avoided by fool proof installers but even
    > more could be gained by newbies reading TFM.
    > I know some people will see that as the typical reason that has held
    > back Linux on the Desktop for so many years, yet the world does not need
    > an other OS that is wide open to all kinds of abuse.


  4. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Max Power wrote:
    > A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    > universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...


    Well, both Debian and FreeBSD can easily be installed onto a usb drive,
    I have a FreeBSD system here on a usb drive, no hassle at all. This
    facility has been available for some time, it is really just down to
    what your pc will boot from.

    >
    > 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk of
    > wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most of
    > the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It
    > should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this. There
    > are not enough prompts around for this dangerous operation.


    If you install Debian, you will get gparted (a fairly sophisticated
    partition editor) which will offer to shrink your existing drive in the
    way you wish.
    Though I might add from my POV the elimination of a Vista drive can only
    be a good thing. I have assisted a number of people to put debian onto
    existing windows machines, the standard is to install grub, which
    automatically detects the windows system and makes dual booting very simple.


    >
    > 2. Flash drives only come in select sizes, making them easier to spot
    > -- 64, 128, 256, 1024, 2048 ... mb
    > -- To optimally install the OS to Flash, some logic will be needed to
    > choose the best sector sizes for FAT32 systems, and similar code could
    > be reused for NTFS.
    > -- Setting the Flash disk to bootable should be handled by the installer
    > program as well. Partition Commander etc ... should not be required.
    > -- Most CD-ROM and DVD-ROM "ISO" disk image programs on Windows, Mac
    > need to make this fix also -- but the "Unix-like" OSes need to make it
    > first.


    You should have either a good google or a nose aroung the archives of
    linux.debian.user for links as to how to install to a flash drive, a lot
    of people are doing it these days.



    --
    Martin

  5. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
    > Max Power schreef:
    >> A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    >> universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...
    >>
    >> 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk
    >> of wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most
    >> of the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It
    >> should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this.
    >> There are not enough prompts around for this dangerous operation.

    >
    > You have a point.
    >
    > But many (most) distributions already give the option to install to a
    > disk and partition of choice.
    >
    > Your claim 'force wiping your HD by default' is in my view only
    > applicable to Microsoft products.
    >
    > Having a multi-boot system with links to removable media has it's
    > challenges, it should not crash when the media is not present.
    >
    > A lot of problems could be avoided by fool proof installers but even
    > more could be gained by newbies reading TFM.
    > I know some people will see that as the typical reason that has held
    > back Linux on the Desktop for so many years, yet the world does not need
    > an other OS that is wide open to all kinds of abuse.


    With the price of flash memory dropping so fast I'm surprised that MB
    mfg's haven't already included a 4GB or 8GB flash-ram disk on the board.
    (maybe they have already?) This ramdisk could hold the base OS and
    additional drives could run OS's in VM's, or boot direct from the boot
    menu in the base OS. The board makers could even include their OS of
    choice, pre-configured and fine tuned for their own hardware. Just think
    of the possibilities.(...voice in the distance> TIME FOR BREAKFAST!!
    ...sorry, I must have been dreaming again....)

  6. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    User wrote:
    > Dirk T. Verbeek wrote:
    >> Max Power schreef:
    >>> A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    >>> universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...
    >>>
    >>> 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk
    >>> of wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it.
    >>> Most of the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by
    >>> default. It should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to
    >>> do this. There are not enough prompts around for this dangerous
    >>> operation.

    >>
    >> You have a point.
    >>
    >> But many (most) distributions already give the option to install to a
    >> disk and partition of choice.
    >>
    >> Your claim 'force wiping your HD by default' is in my view only
    >> applicable to Microsoft products.
    >>
    >> Having a multi-boot system with links to removable media has it's
    >> challenges, it should not crash when the media is not present.
    >>
    >> A lot of problems could be avoided by fool proof installers but even
    >> more could be gained by newbies reading TFM.
    >> I know some people will see that as the typical reason that has held
    >> back Linux on the Desktop for so many years, yet the world does not
    >> need an other OS that is wide open to all kinds of abuse.

    >
    > With the price of flash memory dropping so fast I'm surprised that MB
    > mfg's haven't already included a 4GB or 8GB flash-ram disk on the board.
    > (maybe they have already?) This ramdisk could hold the base OS and
    > additional drives could run OS's in VM's, or boot direct from the boot
    > menu in the base OS. The board makers could even include their OS of
    > choice, pre-configured and fine tuned for their own hardware. Just think
    > of the possibilities.(...voice in the distance> TIME FOR BREAKFAST!!
    > ...sorry, I must have been dreaming again....)


    They're not that cheap, and in a number of ways they're not that reliable.
    There are a few high-end laptops that use it, and it's a big improvement on
    start-up and shut-down times if you have a BIOS that also knows how to be quick.

  7. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:

    >
    > They're not that cheap, and in a number of ways they're not that
    > reliable. There are a few high-end laptops that use it, and it's a big
    > improvement on start-up and shut-down times if you have a BIOS that also
    > knows how to be quick.


    This is kinda cheap:
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820141349
    If you are referring to the 1GB intel turbo-ram offered on high-end
    laptops running vista this does not apply. I was babbling about
    installing the OS on a 4GB or 8GB ramdisk. The above link demonstrates
    that flash-mem prices are falling fast, so what is keeping the mb mfg's
    from hard-wiring it into the board itself?

    About turbo-ram, I have to disable it in the bios to get grub to not
    hang and to work properly on a dual boot ubuntu install. The effect this
    disabling had on vista boot times or performance was not noticeable to me.

  8. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs)...

    User wrote:

    > Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> They're not that cheap, and in a number of ways they're not that
    >> reliable. There are a few high-end laptops that use it, and it's a big
    >> improvement on start-up and shut-down times if you have a BIOS that also
    >> knows how to be quick.

    >
    > This is kinda cheap:
    > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820141349
    > If you are referring to the 1GB intel turbo-ram offered on high-end
    > laptops running vista this does not apply. I was babbling about
    > installing the OS on a 4GB or 8GB ramdisk. The above link demonstrates
    > that flash-mem prices are falling fast, so what is keeping the mb mfg's
    > from hard-wiring it into the board itself?
    >

    All drives can eventually fail. I wouldn't want to have to rely on a flash
    memory drive hardwired onto my mobo. Also, journaled file systems,
    intensive logging, etc. would contributed to the decreased lifespan of such
    a device.

    Cheers.

    --
    The world can't afford the rich.

    Q: What OS is built for lusers?
    A: Which one requires running lusermgr.msc to create them?

    Francis (Frank) adds a new "gadget" to his Vista box ...
    Download it here: http://tinyurl.com/2hnof6



  9. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Max Power wrote:
    > A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    > universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...


    > 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk of
    > wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most of
    > the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It
    > should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this. There
    > are not enough prompts around for this dangerous operation.


    Although I have not tried those distros I can't imagine any distribution that
    would force you to wipe of drive. You partition the drive before starting
    installation. The only minor problem there is a common windows utility that
    fills the drive from the lowest and highest sectors working toward the middle.
    That has to be uninstalled before partitioning. You know you have it if the
    partition tool reports the disk is full and you know it is not. You mention live
    CDs. That should have one or more making it simple.

    --
    If Jews had wanted peace they would never have gone to Palestine.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3961
    http://www.giwersworld.org/israel/bombings.phtml a5

  10. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    User wrote:
    > Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
    >> They're not that cheap, and in a number of ways they're not that
    >> reliable. There are a few high-end laptops that use it, and it's a big
    >> improvement on start-up and shut-down times if you have a BIOS that
    >> also knows how to be quick.


    > This is kinda cheap:
    > http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820141349
    > If you are referring to the 1GB intel turbo-ram offered on high-end
    > laptops running vista this does not apply. I was babbling about
    > installing the OS on a 4GB or 8GB ramdisk. The above link demonstrates
    > that flash-mem prices are falling fast, so what is keeping the mb mfg's
    > from hard-wiring it into the board itself?


    Someone probably is but it hasn't fallen far enough to be in our price range.
    But last I looked speed is lagging behind the price drop so you do not want it
    on 2-3GHz MOBOs yet regardless of the price. Leave them to laptops where other
    things are more important, in this case, power consumption.

    --
    Israel's national anthem is being changed to the theme from The Highlander.
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3962
    http://www.giwersworld.org/disinfo/occupied-2.phtml a6

  11. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in the next 6 months: support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs)...

    Matt Giwer wrote:

    > Someone probably is but it hasn't fallen far enough to be in our price
    > range. But last I looked speed is lagging behind the price drop so you do
    > not want it on 2-3GHz MOBOs yet regardless of the price. Leave them to
    > laptops where other things are more important, in this case, power
    > consumption.


    I've got a little Asus EEE here, which came with a 4 Gb flash drive. With
    very little work (though invalidating the warranty), I've added a further
    44 Gb of flash, Bluetooth, and extra USB ports. The thing is now a /very/
    useful portable tool, robust, reliable, and incredibly cheap!

    C.


  12. A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...


    I have downloaded Free BSD's 7.0 ISO's: the livefs that I put on to a CD-R
    seems to only run in character mode and to want to install to HD.

    >> A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    >> universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...

    > ================================================== =
    > Well, both Debian and FreeBSD can easily be installed onto a usb drive,
    > I have a FreeBSD system here on a usb drive, no hassle at all. This
    > facility has been available for some time, it is really just down to what
    > your pc will boot from.


    I have no desire (or need) to wipe my Vista HD. I have 2 computers: one for
    the computer project -- the other for home (day to day) use. My issue is
    getting a working Vista X11 to MiniPC once it is working again. It is
    unclear how I should do this, as the base ARRIS router and IP address
    interface issues make a very simple issue very confusing (maybe because of
    use of the same IP address). I may have to resort to Samba, if Samba is
    supposed to be used in this way.

    Wikipedia is unclear on what is the best overall (for PC's) Linux variant --
    or BSD etc... but it appears that Debian may have better tools. However,
    this project just requires a stable OS, with hopefully full hardware
    support. Gparted sounds interesting, but I probably should stick to haveing
    only one Linux OS on my MiniPC. I can use the USB & Flash workaround
    instead.

    >> 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk of
    >> wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it. Most of
    >> the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by default. It
    >> should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to do this. There
    >> are not enough prompts around for this dangerous operation.

    >============================================== If you install Debian, you
    >will get gparted (a fairly sophisticated partition editor) which will offer
    >to shrink your existing drive in the way you wish.




  13. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix / OSX fix I would like to see in

    Please keep us informed of your progress.

  14. Re: A Unix / Linux / BSD / Minix support for installing to USB drives(Live CDs / DVDs) ...

    Max Power wrote:
    >
    > I have downloaded Free BSD's 7.0 ISO's: the livefs that I put on to a
    > CD-R seems to only run in character mode and to want to install to HD.


    It is really more of a rescue disk, not like to linux live disks.
    Just use cd no 1 for installation

    >
    >>> A Unix / Linux / BSD fix I would like to see in the next 6 months:
    >>> universal support for installing to USB drives (Live CDs / DVDs) ...

    >> ================================================== =
    >> Well, both Debian and FreeBSD can easily be installed onto a usb drive,
    >> I have a FreeBSD system here on a usb drive, no hassle at all. This
    >> facility has been available for some time, it is really just down to
    >> what your pc will boot from.

    >
    > I have no desire (or need) to wipe my Vista HD. I have 2 computers: one
    > for the computer project -- the other for home (day to day) use. My
    > issue is getting a working Vista X11 to MiniPC once it is working again.
    > It is unclear how I should do this, as the base ARRIS router and IP
    > address interface issues make a very simple issue very confusing (maybe
    > because of use of the same IP address). I may have to resort to Samba,
    > if Samba is supposed to be used in this way.
    >
    > Wikipedia is unclear on what is the best overall (for PC's) Linux
    > variant -- or BSD etc... but it appears that Debian may have better
    > tools. However, this project just requires a stable OS, with hopefully
    > full hardware support. Gparted sounds interesting, but I probably should
    > stick to haveing only one Linux OS on my MiniPC. I can use the USB &
    > Flash workaround instead.
    >
    >>> 1. The preference for installing to USB should be paramount. The risk
    >>> of wiping one's XP or Vista drive for most users is not worth it.
    >>> Most of the user interfaces practically force wiping your HD by
    >>> default. It should take several prompts (where you have to agree) to
    >>> do this. There are not enough prompts around for this dangerous
    >>> operation.

    >> ============================================== If you install Debian,
    >> you will get gparted (a fairly sophisticated partition editor) which
    >> will offer to shrink your existing drive in the way you wish.

    >
    >


    --
    Martin

+ Reply to Thread