UPS and Linux... - Setup

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Thread: UPS and Linux...

  1. UPS and Linux...

    Hi,

    I have a really old computer that I would like to use a UPS with. It is
    used for home automation and real time control. The way I have the guts
    mounted and out-of-sight make it difficult to do hardware upgrades. The
    software also has been so heavily tweaked and tailored over the years that
    it would be counterproductive to start fresh. ("If it ain't broke, don't
    fix it.") Security isn't a concern as this system has no connectivity,
    physical or logical, with the outside world.

    H/W: Guts mainly from old Compaq Deskpro 2000/5166
    P1-200Mhz (non-MMX), 128MB, PSU < 200W (unsure of exact wattage)

    S/W: Linux
    Distro: Redhat9
    Kernel: 2.4.20-6
    FS: ext2fs

    Anyone use a UPS with RH9? From what I have gathered, the APC "SmartUPS"
    units should work using the powerd daemon. Any specific units work better
    than others? I'd prefer one that uses the serial port to communicate rather
    than USB, which may mean having to go to Ebay for an old unit.

    Any "gotcha's" that may come into play. One that I see already is that the
    m/b doesn't power completetly off at shutdown. It goes into some sort of
    "ready" mode at (software) shutdown. Will the UPS be smart enough to kill
    power at this point? When power is reapplied, it does automatically begin
    POST'ing.

    Instead of having a physical BIOS chip, these old Compaqs used a
    properietary bull**** scheme where the "BIOS" resides on a special partition
    on the HDD. Needless to say, I got rid of that nonsense years ago. Having
    read the manual, there are no settings that would enable/disable complete
    powerdown, anyway.

    Thanks...



  2. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Ercmz" wrote in message
    news:46840855$0$20561$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a really old computer that I would like to use a UPS with. It is
    > used for home automation and real time control. The way I have the guts
    > mounted and out-of-sight make it difficult to do hardware upgrades. The
    > software also has been so heavily tweaked and tailored over the years that
    > it would be counterproductive to start fresh. ("If it ain't broke, don't
    > fix it.") Security isn't a concern as this system has no connectivity,
    > physical or logical, with the outside world.
    >
    > H/W: Guts mainly from old Compaq Deskpro 2000/5166
    > P1-200Mhz (non-MMX), 128MB, PSU < 200W (unsure of exact wattage)
    >
    > S/W: Linux
    > Distro: Redhat9
    > Kernel: 2.4.20-6
    > FS: ext2fs
    >
    > Anyone use a UPS with RH9? From what I have gathered, the APC "SmartUPS"
    > units should work using the powerd daemon. Any specific units work better
    > than others? I'd prefer one that uses the serial port to communicate
    > rather than USB, which may mean having to go to Ebay for an old unit.
    >
    > Any "gotcha's" that may come into play. One that I see already is that
    > the m/b doesn't power completetly off at shutdown. It goes into some
    > sort of "ready" mode at (software) shutdown. Will the UPS be smart enough
    > to kill power at this point? When power is reapplied, it does
    > automatically begin POST'ing.
    >
    > Instead of having a physical BIOS chip, these old Compaqs used a
    > properietary bull**** scheme where the "BIOS" resides on a special
    > partition on the HDD. Needless to say, I got rid of that nonsense years
    > ago. Having read the manual, there are no settings that would
    > enable/disable complete powerdown, anyway.
    >
    > Thanks...



    Leaning towards:

    APC Back-UPS ES UPS, 350VA, 200watts
    (Cheap and to the point)

    Using apcupsd
    http://www.apcupsd.org/

    Which says works with RH(9)
    http://www.apcupsd.org/manual/Buildi...ed-Hat-Systems

    ....just have to jibjab a USB controller into the mix

    The m/b not completetly powering down at software shutdowns still worries me
    though.



  3. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ercmz wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a really old computer that I would like to use a UPS with. It is
    > used for home automation and real time control. The way I have the guts
    > mounted and out-of-sight make it difficult to do hardware upgrades. The
    > software also has been so heavily tweaked and tailored over the years that
    > it would be counterproductive to start fresh. ("If it ain't broke, don't
    > fix it.") Security isn't a concern as this system has no connectivity,
    > physical or logical, with the outside world.
    >
    > H/W: Guts mainly from old Compaq Deskpro 2000/5166
    > P1-200Mhz (non-MMX), 128MB, PSU < 200W (unsure of exact wattage)
    >
    > S/W: Linux
    > Distro: Redhat9
    > Kernel: 2.4.20-6
    > FS: ext2fs


    Normally, I would suggest upgrading to a more modern version of Linux, but
    in this case, since you are not connected to the Internet, if it works
    reliably enough for you I would suggest keeping it.
    >
    > Anyone use a UPS with RH9?


    I used to, but that machine is running CentOS4 at the moment.

    > From what I have gathered, the APC "SmartUPS"
    > units should work using the powerd daemon. Any specific units work better
    > than others? I'd prefer one that uses the serial port to communicate rather
    > than USB, which may mean having to go to Ebay for an old unit.


    I like APC UPSs, especially the SmartUPS series.

    I think I used the genpowerd daemon long long ago. I know I had to make a
    special serial cable for it, whatever it was. When PowerChutePlus came out,
    I took it because it has a nice fancy window display.

    I use PowerChutePlus-4.5.3-2_RedHat.i386.rpm with it. This program is no
    longer supported by APC, but still works. At the moment, I have a SmartUPS
    2200 that has a serial interface, a SmartUPS 1000 that also has a serial
    interface, and a SmartUPS 620 that also has a serial interface. Some of them
    also have USB interface -- The 620 does not seem to have USB, the 1000 does,
    and the 2200 does not seem to. So be sure it says they have a serial
    interface before buying. I would be afraid to buy a used one. Call APC to be
    sure.
    >
    > Any "gotcha's" that may come into play. One that I see already is that the
    > m/b doesn't power completetly off at shutdown.


    No, but you can be sure they shut off when you pull the plug. ;-)

    > It goes into some sort of
    > "ready" mode at (software) shutdown. Will the UPS be smart enough to kill
    > power at this point? When power is reapplied, it does automatically begin
    > POST'ing.


    When running PowerChutePlus, the UPS signals the computer about once every 2
    seconds saying all is well. When power fails, it tells it that too.
    Depending on the configuration, it will do a controlled shutdown either
    after a specified time, or when the battery is too weak. Once the computer
    is shut down, it powers the computer off as though you had pulled the plug,
    but by then all file systems are unmounted and the CPU is executing a HALT
    instruction.

    When the power comes back on, i.e., when it is plugged in, it does whatever
    the BIOS tells it to do. If your machine is old enough, the BIOS is not
    involved and it just powers up. If it is pretty new, the BIOS can cause it
    to stay off until you push the start button, return to whatever state it
    used to be in, or start up.
    >
    > Instead of having a physical BIOS chip, these old Compaqs used a
    > properietary bull**** scheme where the "BIOS" resides on a special partition
    > on the HDD. Needless to say, I got rid of that nonsense years ago. Having
    > read the manual, there are no settings that would enable/disable complete
    > powerdown, anyway.
    >
    > Thanks...
    >
    >

    P.S.: If your power is like mine, and you are using the computer to control
    anything critical, you may want a large UPS. My power often goes off for
    over an hour. Now I do not know if you have a UPS on all the sensors for
    your computer (e.g., temperature sensors) and all the actuators (water
    pumps, circulators, ...), but you should think about that.

    Now my machines do nothing so critical, so they run a while and then shut
    down if the power is off too long.


    --
    .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
    /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
    /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
    ^^-^^ 15:40:01 up 7 days, 23:15, 4 users, load average: 4.20, 4.23, 4.19

  4. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ercmz wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a really old computer that I would like to use a UPS with. It is
    > used for home automation and real time control. The way I have the guts
    > mounted and out-of-sight make it difficult to do hardware upgrades. The
    > software also has been so heavily tweaked and tailored over the years that
    > it would be counterproductive to start fresh. ("If it ain't broke, don't
    > fix it.") Security isn't a concern as this system has no connectivity,
    > physical or logical, with the outside world.
    >
    > H/W: Guts mainly from old Compaq Deskpro 2000/5166
    > P1-200Mhz (non-MMX), 128MB, PSU < 200W (unsure of exact wattage)
    >
    > S/W: Linux
    > Distro: Redhat9
    > Kernel: 2.4.20-6
    > FS: ext2fs
    >
    > Anyone use a UPS with RH9? From what I have gathered, the APC "SmartUPS"
    > units should work using the powerd daemon. Any specific units work better
    > than others? I'd prefer one that uses the serial port to communicate rather
    > than USB, which may mean having to go to Ebay for an old unit.


    Good luck. Old UPS is just asking for troubles (UPS wise). You've got
    several strikes working against you ... ancient machine, ancient Linux,
    etc.

    >
    > Any "gotcha's" that may come into play. One that I see already is that the
    > m/b doesn't power completetly off at shutdown. It goes into some sort of
    > "ready" mode at (software) shutdown. Will the UPS be smart enough to kill
    > power at this point?


    No

    > When power is reapplied, it does automatically begin
    > POST'ing.
    >
    > Instead of having a physical BIOS chip, these old Compaqs used a
    > properietary bull**** scheme where the "BIOS" resides on a special partition
    > on the HDD. Needless to say, I got rid of that nonsense years ago. Having
    > read the manual, there are no settings that would enable/disable complete
    > powerdown, anyway.
    >
    > Thanks...


    At some point you have to weigh the costs of supporting outdated
    equipment and OS's and the limitations and frustrations that come
    from that. For a few hundred bucks, you could eliminate the issues.
    The question is: Is it worth $200-300 to you?

    I see no value in trying to do something sophisticated with hardware
    and software that is restricted from doing anything very sophisticated.

    It sounds neat to tell people that you have a 486 running Linux... but
    a LOT of stuff just wasn't possible back then irrespective of OS. Times
    have changed. Personally, I could live without the headache....



  5. Re: UPS and Linux...

    ["Followup-To:" header set to comp.os.linux.setup.]

    On 2007-06-28, Ercmz wrote:
    >
    > Any "gotcha's" that may come into play. One that I see already is that the
    > m/b doesn't power completetly off at shutdown. It goes into some sort of
    > "ready" mode at (software) shutdown. Will the UPS be smart enough to kill
    > power at this point? When power is reapplied, it does automatically begin
    > POST'ing.


    You need to configure your shutdown procedure, either via inittab or a
    shutdown script, to tell the UPS to kill the power. If you're willing,
    I'd suggest installing NUT, from http://www.networkupstools.org . It
    has excellent documentation for configuring and testing your UPS setup.
    You may need an older version for RH9, but it should still work fine.

    --keith

    --
    kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
    see X- headers for PGP signature information


  6. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ercmz wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I have a really old computer that I would like to use a UPS with. It is
    > used for home automation and real time control. The way I have the guts
    > mounted and out-of-sight make it difficult to do hardware upgrades. The
    > software also has been so heavily tweaked and tailored over the years that
    > it would be counterproductive to start fresh. ("If it ain't broke, don't
    > fix it.") Security isn't a concern as this system has no connectivity,
    > physical or logical, with the outside world.

    .... snip

    This might help you in picking a ups: http://geekbiker.net/upsinfo
    Though I have not updated that page in a while.

    BTW, my personal favorite brand is MGE, but they are a bit more
    expensive and harder to find.

    --
    Ogre

  7. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Hi,

    Thanks for the replies. I've read all of them and they were all helpful.

    Since posting the last time, I picked up a [APC Back-UPS ES UPS, 350VA,
    200watts] and also threw a USB controller into the witch brew.

    Using the RH9 RPM for apcupsd, it was a straight-forward drop in and is
    working....

    Actually, I was pleasantly surprised how simple it was to get up and
    running. I'll probably tweak out some of the timing variables to my own
    preferences, but for all purposes it works well "right out of the box"
    (apcusbd).

    I'm happy with it. I'll check out NUT and the other sources listed in this
    thread though. Left for another day is a few things that I'd like to tweak
    on the UPS EPROM firmware itself such as turning the annoying alarm beeps
    off, changing the "grace period" from time UPS gets a "power off" command to
    actually turning off, etc. The apctest program doesn't seem to recognize any
    of these settings even though does pick up battery date, manuf date, etc.
    No big deal. The HDD has a real small W98 partition and I think I saw a
    Windoze program to get at all this stuff...

    UPS newbie here and just happy it was so painless... Hard to believe gone
    so many years without any of these animals. I'll definetly be getting some
    big ones for my main computers soon. :-)

    Thanks!






  8. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Ercmz" wrote in message
    news:46844b41$0$8058$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    > Hi,
    >
    > Thanks for the replies. I've read all of them and they were all helpful.
    >
    > Since posting the last time, I picked up a [APC Back-UPS ES UPS, 350VA,
    > 200watts] and also threw a USB controller into the witch brew.
    >
    > Using the RH9 RPM for apcupsd, it was a straight-forward drop in and is
    > working....
    >
    > Actually, I was pleasantly surprised how simple it was to get up and
    > running. I'll probably tweak out some of the timing variables to my own
    > preferences, but for all purposes it works well "right out of the box"
    > (apcusbd).
    >
    > I'm happy with it. I'll check out NUT and the other sources listed in
    > this thread though. Left for another day is a few things that I'd like to
    > tweak on the UPS EPROM firmware itself such as turning the annoying alarm
    > beeps off, changing the "grace period" from time UPS gets a "power off"
    > command to actually turning off, etc. The apctest program doesn't seem to
    > recognize any of these settings even though does pick up battery date,
    > manuf date, etc. No big deal. The HDD has a real small W98 partition and
    > I think I saw a Windoze program to get at all this stuff...
    >
    > UPS newbie here and just happy it was so painless... Hard to believe gone
    > so many years without any of these animals. I'll definetly be getting
    > some big ones for my main computers soon. :-)
    >
    > Thanks!


    Got the firmware tweaked out to personal preferences now. No more annoying
    beeping.

    I'm still amazed at how smooth that went. I was expecting blood to be
    drawn. Status messages sent to mail spool are even working. Cool.

    I monitor/control this "system" (more of a "system" than a "computer") via
    http, so definetly will play with the apcusbd cgi stuff. Spitting out UPS
    stats on a web page could be cool. Hairy configuration is done over SSH.
    (Networking is just point-to-point.)

    Its headless, which meant dragging out a monitor everytime there was a power
    failure to do a fsck. (ex2fs)

    This "system" is so tweaked and tailored out (years worth) that it made more
    sense to continue to work with it than to upgrade hardware, do cartwheeling
    to convert the FS to ext3fs/reiserfs, etc...

    Thanks!




  9. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ercmz wrote:

    >
    > Its headless, which meant dragging out a monitor everytime there was a
    > power failure to do a fsck. (ex2fs)
    >
    > This "system" is so tweaked and tailored out (years worth) that it made
    > more sense to continue to work with it than to upgrade hardware, do
    > cartwheeling to convert the FS to ext3fs/reiserfs, etc...
    >

    RHL9 supports ext3 file systems; all you need do is run tune2fs and tell it
    to upgrade (on a partition by partition basis, so you need not change all at
    once).

    Something like the following if it is hda7 that you want to change. You can
    probably change the root file system as well, without umounting it, but you
    probably have to reboot to get it to take effect.

    umount /dev/hda7
    tune2fs -j /dev/hda7
    [change /etc/fstab from ext2 to ext3 for /dev/hda7]
    mount /dev/hda7

    See the man pages to be sure.

    --
    .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
    /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
    /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
    ^^-^^ 06:30:01 up 8 days, 14:05, 3 users, load average: 4.39, 4.26, 4.11

  10. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ogre wrote:
    > Ercmz wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I have a really old computer that I would like to use a UPS with. It
    >> is used for home automation and real time control. The way I have the
    >> guts mounted and out-of-sight make it difficult to do hardware
    >> upgrades. The software also has been so heavily tweaked and tailored
    >> over the years that it would be counterproductive to start fresh.
    >> ("If it ain't broke, don't fix it.") Security isn't a concern as this
    >> system has no connectivity, physical or logical, with the outside world.

    > ... snip
    >
    > This might help you in picking a ups: http://geekbiker.net/upsinfo
    > Though I have not updated that page in a while.
    >
    > BTW, my personal favorite brand is MGE, but they are a bit more
    > expensive and harder to find.
    >


    The power supply on my server blew out last night so this web page is
    not currently available. I hope to have it back up this evening.

    --
    Ogre

  11. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
    news:zq5hi.3903$RZ1.299@trnddc05...
    > RHL9 supports ext3 file systems; all you need do is run tune2fs and tell
    > it
    > to upgrade (on a partition by partition basis, so you need not change all
    > at
    > once).
    >
    > Something like the following if it is hda7 that you want to change. You
    > can
    > probably change the root file system as well, without umounting it, but
    > you
    > probably have to reboot to get it to take effect.
    >
    > umount /dev/hda7
    > tune2fs -j /dev/hda7
    > [change /etc/fstab from ext2 to ext3 for /dev/hda7]
    > mount /dev/hda7
    >
    > See the man pages to be sure.
    >


    Thanks. Gave that a try. It converted easily enough, but booting now gives
    an "EXT2-fs warning", (ext2_read_super: mounting ext3 filesystem as ext2).

    /etc/fstab was changed to reflect ext3

    Haven't had time to dig further, but suspect the kernel may simply not have
    ext3 support. How can you tell if it does or doesn't (?).

    If it is going to require building a whole new kernel to get use of ext3,
    I'll likely just convert the FS back to ext2.

    Thanks...



  12. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Ercmz" wrote in message
    news:46855129$0$3139$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    > Thanks. Gave that a try. It converted easily enough, but booting now
    > gives an "EXT2-fs warning", (ext2_read_super: mounting ext3 filesystem as
    > ext2).
    >
    > /etc/fstab was changed to reflect ext3
    >
    > Haven't had time to dig further, but suspect the kernel may simply not
    > have ext3 support. How can you tell if it does or doesn't (?).
    >
    > If it is going to require building a whole new kernel to get use of ext3,
    > I'll likely just convert the FS back to ext2.
    >
    > Thanks...


    I'm more of a hardware person than software...

    All the partitions, except for the / (root) partition, appear to function as
    ext3 now.

    This is what I found:

    http://www.redhat.com/support/wpapers/redhat/ext3/

    [ It does look like ext3 support is directly compiled into the stock RH9
    2.4.20-6 kernel, versus loading as a module, but I can only guess. I don't
    know how to check if it is or not. ]

    "The tune2fs program can add a journal to an existing ext2 file system. If
    the file system is already mounted while it is being transitioned, the
    journal will be visible as the file .journal in the root directory of the
    file system. If the file system is not mounted, the journal will be hidden
    and will not appear in the file system. Just run tune2fs -j /dev/hda1 (or
    whatever device holds the file system you are transitioning) and change ext2
    to ext3 on the matching lines in /etc/fstab."

    [ The above is straight-forward and did exactly as advertised for all
    partitions except for the / (root) partition. ]

    "If you are transitioning your root file system, you will have to use an
    initrd to boot. Run the mkinitrd program as described in the manual and make
    sure that your LILO or GRUB configuration loads the initrd. (If you fail to
    make that change, the system will still boot, but the root file system will
    be mounted as ext2 instead of ext3 - you can tell this by looking at the
    output of the command cat /proc/mounts.)"

    [ Yep, that is exactly the behavior I'm seeing. The root filesystem is
    being mounted as ext2. ...but
    "use an initrd to boot." <-- I don't know what the heck an "initrd" is,
    let alone how to use one.
    "Run the mkinitrd program as described in the manual" <--- what manual?
    ]




  13. Re: UPS and Linux...

    On 2007-06-29, Ercmz wrote:
    >
    > "If you are transitioning your root file system, you will have to use an
    > initrd to boot. Run the mkinitrd program as described in the manual and make
    > sure that your LILO or GRUB configuration loads the initrd. (If you fail to
    > make that change, the system will still boot, but the root file system will
    > be mounted as ext2 instead of ext3 - you can tell this by looking at the
    > output of the command cat /proc/mounts.)"
    >
    > [ Yep, that is exactly the behavior I'm seeing. The root filesystem is
    > being mounted as ext2. ...but
    > "use an initrd to boot." <-- I don't know what the heck an "initrd" is,
    > let alone how to use one.
    > "Run the mkinitrd program as described in the manual" <--- what manual?
    > ]


    You should also be able to boot from a CD or floppy to effect the
    transition for the root filesystem. Boot from CD/floppy, e2fsck the root
    filesystem, which will transition the journal, then boot from hard disk,
    which should now not need to try to transition the root filesystem from
    ext2 to ext3. (I've never actually tried this before, however, so if
    you are concerned, my guess is the man page for mkinitrd might help you
    make a new initrd.)

    --keith

    --
    kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://www.therockgarden.ca/aolsfaq.txt
    see X- headers for PGP signature information


  14. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ercmz wrote:
    > "Ercmz" wrote in message
    > news:46855129$0$3139$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    >> Thanks. Gave that a try. It converted easily enough, but booting now
    >> gives an "EXT2-fs warning", (ext2_read_super: mounting ext3 filesystem as
    >> ext2).
    >>
    >> /etc/fstab was changed to reflect ext3
    >>
    >> Haven't had time to dig further, but suspect the kernel may simply not
    >> have ext3 support. How can you tell if it does or doesn't (?).
    >>
    >> If it is going to require building a whole new kernel to get use of ext3,
    >> I'll likely just convert the FS back to ext2.
    >>
    >> Thanks...

    >
    > I'm more of a hardware person than software...
    >
    > All the partitions, except for the / (root) partition, appear to function as
    > ext3 now.
    >
    > This is what I found:
    >
    > http://www.redhat.com/support/wpapers/redhat/ext3/
    >
    > [ It does look like ext3 support is directly compiled into the stock RH9
    > 2.4.20-6 kernel, versus loading as a module, but I can only guess. I don't
    > know how to check if it is or not. ]
    >
    > "The tune2fs program can add a journal to an existing ext2 file system. If
    > the file system is already mounted while it is being transitioned, the
    > journal will be visible as the file .journal in the root directory of the
    > file system. If the file system is not mounted, the journal will be hidden
    > and will not appear in the file system. Just run tune2fs -j /dev/hda1 (or
    > whatever device holds the file system you are transitioning) and change ext2
    > to ext3 on the matching lines in /etc/fstab."
    >
    > [ The above is straight-forward and did exactly as advertised for all
    > partitions except for the / (root) partition. ]


    ext3 is built into the kernel, I thought. Now at one time, people kept their
    /boot partition as ext2, and I still do this, but there is no reason for it,
    just my policy. Perhaps it requires some module to boot up, and has to be up
    to load the module. IIRC (and I may not), only the /boot partition needs (or
    needed) to be ext2, not the whole / partition, so if it matters to you, make
    a separate /boot partition. 50 Megabytes should be enough. Maybe even 25
    megabytes.
    >
    > "If you are transitioning your root file system, you will have to use an
    > initrd to boot. Run the mkinitrd program as described in the manual and make
    > sure that your LILO or GRUB configuration loads the initrd. (If you fail to
    > make that change, the system will still boot, but the root file system will
    > be mounted as ext2 instead of ext3 - you can tell this by looking at the
    > output of the command cat /proc/mounts.)"
    >
    > [ Yep, that is exactly the behavior I'm seeing. The root filesystem is
    > being mounted as ext2. ...but
    > "use an initrd to boot." <-- I don't know what the heck an "initrd" is,
    > let alone how to use one.
    > "Run the mkinitrd program as described in the manual" <--- what manual?
    > ]
    >
    >
    >



    --
    .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
    /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
    /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
    ^^-^^ 18:20:01 up 9 days, 1:55, 3 users, load average: 4.38, 4.32, 4.27

  15. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
    news:FEfhi.34$Np2.11@trnddc07...
    > Ercmz wrote:
    >> "Ercmz" wrote in message
    >> news:46855129$0$3139$4c368faf@roadrunner.com...
    >>> Thanks. Gave that a try. It converted easily enough, but booting now
    >>> gives an "EXT2-fs warning", (ext2_read_super: mounting ext3 filesystem
    >>> as
    >>> ext2).
    >>>
    >>> /etc/fstab was changed to reflect ext3
    >>>
    >>> Haven't had time to dig further, but suspect the kernel may simply not
    >>> have ext3 support. How can you tell if it does or doesn't (?).
    >>>
    >>> If it is going to require building a whole new kernel to get use of
    >>> ext3,
    >>> I'll likely just convert the FS back to ext2.
    >>>
    >>> Thanks...

    >>
    >> I'm more of a hardware person than software...
    >>
    >> All the partitions, except for the / (root) partition, appear to function
    >> as
    >> ext3 now.
    >>
    >> This is what I found:
    >>
    >> http://www.redhat.com/support/wpapers/redhat/ext3/
    >>
    >> [ It does look like ext3 support is directly compiled into the stock RH9
    >> 2.4.20-6 kernel, versus loading as a module, but I can only guess. I
    >> don't
    >> know how to check if it is or not. ]
    >>
    >> "The tune2fs program can add a journal to an existing ext2 file system.
    >> If
    >> the file system is already mounted while it is being transitioned, the
    >> journal will be visible as the file .journal in the root directory of the
    >> file system. If the file system is not mounted, the journal will be
    >> hidden
    >> and will not appear in the file system. Just run tune2fs -j /dev/hda1 (or
    >> whatever device holds the file system you are transitioning) and change
    >> ext2
    >> to ext3 on the matching lines in /etc/fstab."
    >>
    >> [ The above is straight-forward and did exactly as advertised for all
    >> partitions except for the / (root) partition. ]

    >
    > ext3 is built into the kernel, I thought. Now at one time, people kept
    > their
    > /boot partition as ext2, and I still do this, but there is no reason for
    > it,
    > just my policy. Perhaps it requires some module to boot up, and has to be
    > up
    > to load the module. IIRC (and I may not), only the /boot partition needs
    > (or
    > needed) to be ext2, not the whole / partition, so if it matters to you,
    > make
    > a separate /boot partition. 50 Megabytes should be enough. Maybe even 25
    > megabytes.


    Hi,

    Spent a few minutes reading earlier and think I may be tracking somewhat.
    From what I read, and what it looks like on my end, ext3 support appears to
    be through a module and not compiled into the kernel.
    And since the modules are on the root partition, it is a chicken and egg
    thing. It needs to load the ext3 module to do ext3, but has to be in ext2
    to get at it.
    If I read and understood correctly, if I were to made an initrd (since
    learned that is the 'initial ramdisk') with ext3 support, then it would
    work?
    Went ahead and downloaded full kernel sources as well. Grabbed the config's
    and mod-init-tools as well. Can't say too thrilled about building a new
    kernel. Did it years ago and while it did work, it was like having a root
    canal. (I'm not a software person. LOL.)

    I see what you are saying about keeping /boot as ext2. Makes sense.
    Confused a bit on how that would help module loading though, as they all
    live in /lib/modules in the / partition.

    Thanks!

    The drives (and partitions) on this 'ol computer are itty-bitty small..

    ---------------------------
    # df -T

    Filesystem Type 1K-blocks Used Available Use% Mounted on
    /dev/hdc1 ext3 2433136 1902624 404920 83% /
    /dev/hda1 ext3 101485 9017 87228 10% /boot
    none tmpfs 63192 0 63192 0% /dev/shm
    /dev/hda4 ext3 1139327 312066 768394 29% /hda4
    ---------------------------
    # cat /etc/fstab

    LABEL=/ / ext3 defaults 1 1
    LABEL=/boot /boot ext3 defaults 1 2
    none /dev/pts devpts gid=5,mode=620 0 0
    none /proc proc defaults 0 0
    none /dev/shm tmpfs defaults 0 0
    /dev/hda2 swap swap defaults 0 0
    /dev/fd0 /mnt/floppy auto noauto,owner,kudzu 0
    0
    /dev/cdrom /mnt/cdrom udf,iso9660
    noauto,owner,kudzu,ro 0 0
    ---------------------------
    # cat /proc/modules
    loop 11224 0 (autoclean)
    autofs 12148 1 (autoclean)
    3c59x 29360 1
    ext3 64736 2 (autoclean)
    jbd 47860 2 (autoclean) [ext3]
    mousedev 5204 0 (unused)
    keybdev 2720 0 (unused)
    hid 20772 1
    input 5632 0 [mousedev keybdev hid]
    ehci-hcd 18472 0 (unused)
    usb-ohci 20392 0 (unused)
    usbcore 73088 1 [hid ehci-hcd usb-ohci]
    ---------------------------



  16. Re: UPS and Linux...

    Ercmz wrote:

    > Spent a few minutes reading earlier and think I may be tracking somewhat.
    > From what I read, and what it looks like on my end, ext3 support appears to
    > be through a module and not compiled into the kernel.
    > And since the modules are on the root partition, it is a chicken and egg
    > thing. It needs to load the ext3 module to do ext3, but has to be in ext2
    > to get at it.
    > If I read and understood correctly, if I were to made an initrd (since
    > learned that is the 'initial ramdisk') with ext3 support, then it would
    > work?
    > Went ahead and downloaded full kernel sources as well. Grabbed the config's
    > and mod-init-tools as well. Can't say too thrilled about building a new
    > kernel. Did it years ago and while it did work, it was like having a root
    > canal. (I'm not a software person. LOL.)
    >
    > I see what you are saying about keeping /boot as ext2. Makes sense.
    > Confused a bit on how that would help module loading though, as they all
    > live in /lib/modules in the / partition.
    >

    Unless I am mistaken, you can boot the kernel entirely from /boot. Once the
    kernel is booted and the rest of the system comes up, early in the process,
    / is mounted, and once that is done, the module for ext3 can be loaded. Now
    when that was an issue, I ran Red Hat Linux 9, and I know I did nothing
    special to get it to load, and I definitely had / as ext3. So either Red Hat
    supplied the right initrd, or I did not need a special one. I know I never
    made one, and I never compiled a kernel in those days.

    With Red Hat Enterprise Linux, here is the log after a reboot

    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sda at scsi0, channel 0,
    id 0, lun 0
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sdb at scsi0, channel 0,
    id 1, lun 0
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sdc at scsi0, channel 0,
    id 2, lun 0
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sdd at scsi0, channel 0,
    id 3, lun 0
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sda: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    sectors (18389 MB)
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sda: sda1 sda2 sda3
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sdb: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    sectors (18389 MB)
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sdb: sdb1 sdb2
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sdc: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    sectors (18389 MB)
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sdc: sdc1 sdc2
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sdd: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    sectors (18389 MB)
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sdd: sdd1 sdd2
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: blk: queue f7a21818, I/O limit 524287Mb
    (mask 0x7fffffffff)
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Vendor: EXABYTE Model: VXA-2
    Rev: 2120
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Type: Sequential-Access
    ANSI SCSI revision: 02
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: blk: queue f7a21618, I/O limit 524287Mb
    (mask 0x7fffffffff)
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Journalled Block Device driver loaded <---<<<
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: kjournald starting. Commit interval 5 seconds
    Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered
    data mode. <---<<<

    Now what I do not understand is that it loaded the Journalled Block Device
    Driver before it mounted the first EXT3-fs, the one that contains the root
    (/) directory where the modules are.

    Only much later in the file do I get:

    Jun 19 16:16:08 trillian rc.sysinit: Checking root filesystem succeeded
    Jun 19 16:16:08 trillian rc.sysinit: Remounting root filesystem in
    read-write mode: succeeded <---<<< but how was it mounted the first time?
    Jun 19 16:16:08 trillian rc.sysinit: Activating swap partitions: succeeded
    Jun 19 16:16:09 trillian rc.sysinit: Finding module dependencies: succeeded

    But that appears to have happened earlier. Queuing to /var/log/messages
    seems peculiar here. It appears that just before this, it reset the system
    clock, so this is really later and in proper sequence. Whew!

    I see, grub knows where initrd is, and it is in the /boot partition. I
    suppose these days, the initrd has the journalling module in it.

    --
    .~. Jean-David Beyer Registered Linux User 85642.
    /V\ PGP-Key: 9A2FC99A Registered Machine 241939.
    /( )\ Shrewsbury, New Jersey http://counter.li.org
    ^^-^^ 07:10:01 up 9 days, 14:46, 5 users, load average: 4.24, 4.16, 4.17

  17. Re: UPS and Linux...

    "Keith Keller" wrote in message
    news:va6gl4xi21.ln2@goaway.wombat.san-francisco.ca.us...
    > You should also be able to boot from a CD or floppy to effect the
    > transition for the root filesystem. Boot from CD/floppy, e2fsck the root
    > filesystem, which will transition the journal, then boot from hard disk,
    > which should now not need to try to transition the root filesystem from
    > ext2 to ext3. (I've never actually tried this before, however, so if
    > you are concerned, my guess is the man page for mkinitrd might help you
    > make a new initrd.)
    >
    > --keith


    Hi,

    Actually, I did try a variant of that after converting and making the
    journals. I figured running an e2fsck right away afterwards would make
    sense, so unmounted the non root partitions and ran it. For the root
    partition (yep, I know this was bad -- but I was lazy!), during a boot
    sequence, I powered down so that the next boot sequence, it would whine
    about the unclean powerdown and would bring up the interactive mode where
    e2fsck could be run against the root partition...





  18. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
    news:0irhi.890$Pv2.143@trnddc03...
    > Ercmz wrote:
    >
    >> Spent a few minutes reading earlier and think I may be tracking somewhat.
    >> From what I read, and what it looks like on my end, ext3 support appears
    >> to
    >> be through a module and not compiled into the kernel.
    >> And since the modules are on the root partition, it is a chicken and egg
    >> thing. It needs to load the ext3 module to do ext3, but has to be in
    >> ext2
    >> to get at it.
    >> If I read and understood correctly, if I were to made an initrd (since
    >> learned that is the 'initial ramdisk') with ext3 support, then it would
    >> work?
    >> Went ahead and downloaded full kernel sources as well. Grabbed the
    >> config's
    >> and mod-init-tools as well. Can't say too thrilled about building a new
    >> kernel. Did it years ago and while it did work, it was like having a
    >> root
    >> canal. (I'm not a software person. LOL.)
    >>
    >> I see what you are saying about keeping /boot as ext2. Makes sense.
    >> Confused a bit on how that would help module loading though, as they all
    >> live in /lib/modules in the / partition.
    >>

    > Unless I am mistaken, you can boot the kernel entirely from /boot. Once
    > the
    > kernel is booted and the rest of the system comes up, early in the
    > process,
    > / is mounted, and once that is done, the module for ext3 can be loaded.
    > Now
    > when that was an issue, I ran Red Hat Linux 9, and I know I did nothing
    > special to get it to load, and I definitely had / as ext3. So either Red
    > Hat
    > supplied the right initrd, or I did not need a special one. I know I never
    > made one, and I never compiled a kernel in those days.
    >
    > With Red Hat Enterprise Linux, here is the log after a reboot
    >
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sda at scsi0, channel
    > 0,
    > id 0, lun 0
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sdb at scsi0, channel
    > 0,
    > id 1, lun 0
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sdc at scsi0, channel
    > 0,
    > id 2, lun 0
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Attached scsi disk sdd at scsi0, channel
    > 0,
    > id 3, lun 0
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sda: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    > sectors (18389 MB)
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sda: sda1 sda2 sda3
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sdb: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    > sectors (18389 MB)
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sdb: sdb1 sdb2
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sdc: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    > sectors (18389 MB)
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sdc: sdc1 sdc2
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: SCSI device sdd: 35916548 512-byte hdwr
    > sectors (18389 MB)
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: sdd: sdd1 sdd2
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: blk: queue f7a21818, I/O limit 524287Mb
    > (mask 0x7fffffffff)
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Vendor: EXABYTE Model: VXA-2
    > Rev: 2120
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Type: Sequential-Access
    > ANSI SCSI revision: 02
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: blk: queue f7a21618, I/O limit 524287Mb
    > (mask 0x7fffffffff)
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: Journalled Block Device driver loaded
    > <---<<<
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: kjournald starting. Commit interval 5
    > seconds
    > Jun 19 16:16:37 trillian kernel: EXT3-fs: mounted filesystem with ordered
    > data mode. <---<<<
    >
    > Now what I do not understand is that it loaded the Journalled Block Device
    > Driver before it mounted the first EXT3-fs, the one that contains the root
    > (/) directory where the modules are.
    >
    > Only much later in the file do I get:
    >
    > Jun 19 16:16:08 trillian rc.sysinit: Checking root filesystem succeeded
    > Jun 19 16:16:08 trillian rc.sysinit: Remounting root filesystem in
    > read-write mode: succeeded <---<<< but how was it mounted the first
    > time?
    > Jun 19 16:16:08 trillian rc.sysinit: Activating swap partitions:
    > succeeded
    > Jun 19 16:16:09 trillian rc.sysinit: Finding module dependencies:
    > succeeded
    >
    > But that appears to have happened earlier. Queuing to /var/log/messages
    > seems peculiar here. It appears that just before this, it reset the system
    > clock, so this is really later and in proper sequence. Whew!
    >
    > I see, grub knows where initrd is, and it is in the /boot partition. I
    > suppose these days, the initrd has the journalling module in it.
    >


    Hi,

    Thanks for the reply. I admit that I'm going to have to read it several
    times...
    Haven't messed around with anything since posting the last time...
    Just grep'd my /var/message files for 'remount' and 'read-write' with no
    hits..

    Guess it is going to take a bit of work, and reading, to figure out this
    chicken and egg thing..

    Thanks...



  19. Re: UPS and Linux... (ext3 root fixed)


    Figured out what the problem was.

    I had installed new modutils, in preperation to build a 2.6~ kernel, which
    were conflicting with the initrd that I built for ext3 support.

    Reverting back to the old modutils got the new initrd to finally work
    correctly.

    With UPS and now ext3 working on everything, I'm happy as it all much more
    "tolerant" now. Definetly closer to being an "appliance" than a "computer",
    which was the whole intention.

    Thanks...



  20. Re: UPS and Linux...


    "Jean-David Beyer" wrote in message
    news:0irhi.890$Pv2.143@trnddc03...
    > Unless I am mistaken, you can boot the kernel entirely from /boot. Once
    > the
    > kernel is booted and the rest of the system comes up, early in the
    > process,
    > / is mounted, and once that is done, the module for ext3 can be loaded.
    > Now
    > when that was an issue, I ran Red Hat Linux 9, and I know I did nothing
    > special to get it to load, and I definitely had / as ext3. So either Red
    > Hat
    > supplied the right initrd, or I did not need a special one. I know I never
    > made one, and I never compiled a kernel in those days.
    >


    Hi,

    Now that I have worked it through, your post makes sense to me. I think I
    can offer an explaination as to why I needed to build a new initrd as well.

    This is speculation, but it appears that different initrd's are installed
    during setup based upon which filesystem is selected at install. Since
    ext2 was selected (years ago) during install, an initrd that didn't have
    ext3 support was used. The original ext2 initrd was ~90K while the initrd
    that I made with ext3 support was ~145K. Once I put the old modutils back
    in, it began to load correctly. I built new modutils in preperation for
    building a 2.6~ kernel, but in haste overlooked part of the installation
    where you were advised to do a "make old", which copied your old modutils to
    ..old files. Did a force install of the old modutils, then installed the new
    modutils correctly. The new initrd is now finding the .old files (which it
    needs, since still using 2.4.20-6 kernel.) Was going to build a 2.6~
    kernel, but now that everything is working, don't see any need to.
    Security isn't a concern since nobody can get at it. Never had any problems
    related to the 2.4.20 kernel. "If it aint broke, don't fix it."

    None of the stuff that I do with it is critical. I've always had a fancy
    for sensors and "real world" computer integration going back to Tandy TRS-80
    Coco's. Just various projects here and there. Some do things that are
    practical, others do things just to do them... Even though there are
    ready-built gadgets and animals to do much of the same things these days, it
    is just fun to do them yourself.

    Thanks!



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