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  1. Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org


  2. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    Useful Info wrote:
    > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
    >


    Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
    decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
    bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
    does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.

    Nope. Palm is dead.

    Q

  3. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article <1180563355.853218.305940@o5g2000hsb.googlegroups.c om>,
    Useful Info wrote:

    > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org


    Sort of. I really can't figure out what they're up to. The new device
    runs Linux, but they're positioning the thing like an accessory to a
    $400 Treo. Which still runs the now archaic PalmOS.

    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  4. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    Quaoar wrote:

    > Useful Info wrote:
    > > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
    > >

    >
    > Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
    > decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
    > bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
    > does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.


    WiFi, according to Hawkins, in a video interview he gave yesterday.

    Also:

    http://www.palm.com/us/products/mobi...foleo/web.html

    http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/top/palm-...-smartphone-26
    4550.php

    http://www.ubergizmo.com/15/archives...bile_companion.
    html

    > Nope. Palm is dead.


    Maybe it just smells bad sometimes?

  5. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    Quaoar wrote:

    > Useful Info wrote:
    > > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
    > >

    >
    > Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
    > decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
    > bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
    > does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.
    >
    > Nope. Palm is dead.


    I hope not.

    But putting this thing out is a very poor decision. I was reading
    an article this morning about it where they spoke with the fellow
    from HandSpring who invented it. He said himself that its time of
    release should have been years ago when he thought of it. Instead
    he had to wait through the recent round of Treos before Palm
    would let him produce it.

    My Palm PDA has become the other half of my brain. I love the
    little thing. It's not just for my addresses and dates. I use
    WordSmith with it, an absolutely brilliant text program, that
    lets me read and write on my Palm all day long. When that is what
    I need to do it is great not to have to lug my MacBook around
    with me. I hope Palm manages to survive their bungling. No way am
    I going to use one of those MS Windows infected hand held
    monstrosities.

    My very favorite part of my Palm is Graffiti, the handwriting
    recognition system. Its not perfect, but then again I am a very
    sloppy writer. I have to say that it is a joy to use, far better
    than any other handwriting recognition yet available, once you
    get the hang of it, which only takes a day.

    As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
    moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
    the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
    a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
    the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
    the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.

    :-Derek

    --
    Fortune Magazine 11-29-05: What's your computer setup today?
    Frederick Brooks: I happily use a Macintosh. It's not been
    equalled for ease of use, and I want my computer to be a tool,
    not a challenge.

    [Frederick Brooks is the author of 'The Mythical Man Month'.
    He spearheaded the movement to modernize computer software
    engineering in 1975.]

  6. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article
    ,
    Derek Currie wrote:

    > In article ,
    > Quaoar wrote:
    >
    > > Useful Info wrote:
    > > > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
    > > >

    > >
    > > Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
    > > decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
    > > bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
    > > does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.
    > >
    > > Nope. Palm is dead.

    >
    > I hope not.
    >
    > But putting this thing out is a very poor decision. I was reading
    > an article this morning about it where they spoke with the fellow
    > from HandSpring who invented it. He said himself that its time of
    > release should have been years ago when he thought of it. Instead
    > he had to wait through the recent round of Treos before Palm
    > would let him produce it.


    I'm not sure I really get the Folio. Sure, it's cheaper than one of
    those tiny Sony laptops. And it's smaller than any of the cheap laptops
    I've seen. And it probably gets better battery life than either.

    There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
    market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
    with that battery life, and at that price. A specialty device like the
    Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
    operating systems.

    They can't really make it any smaller, because it needs a 10" screen and
    full-sized keyboard. They could keep it consistently cheaper than
    fully-featured laptops. But remember, people are increasingly buying
    laptops rather than desktops as their primary computers. Five years from
    now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your primary machine was a
    desktop and you just wanted something portable for taking notes, etc.
    the Folio might make sense. But if your primary machine is a supper-slim
    laptop, are you really going to buy a Folio as well?

    [snip]

    > As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
    > moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
    > the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
    > a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
    > the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
    > the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.


    Palm isn't, as of yet, moving their actual PDAs to Linux. This is
    somewhat baffling. Palm OS is really long in the tooth at this point.

    I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
    this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
    (My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)

    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  7. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    ZnU wrote:

    (a little snip here, a little snip there)

    > There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
    > market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
    > with that battery life, and at that price. A specialty device like the
    > Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
    > operating systems.


    I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
    entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
    "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
    will be the size of the Foleo.

    It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
    and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
    a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
    Foleo when doing "intense work."

    The only way that will work, however, is if the Foleo is roughly
    equivalent to a laptop in usability. And it doesn't seem like it's there
    yet.

    But, one of the reasons the Treo doesn't appeal to me is simply the size
    of its screen. So, maybe. But then again, maybe not.

    --
    Derek

    Many are cold, but few are frozen.

  8. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article <5cbik7F2v8vg8U1@mid.individual.net>, Derek
    wrote:

    > ZnU wrote:
    >
    > (a little snip here, a little snip there)
    >
    > > There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
    > > market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
    > > with that battery life, and at that price. A specialty device like the
    > > Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
    > > operating systems.

    >
    > I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
    > entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
    > "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
    > will be the size of the Foleo.
    >
    > It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
    > and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
    > a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
    > Foleo when doing "intense work."


    I think it's very likely that in the long run, smartphones (docked to
    appropriate display and input devices for different purposes) will
    become the center of people's computing lives. However, Palm's platform
    is screwed when that happens, for basically the same reason I mention
    above. The smartphones which will eventually enable this are by
    definition going to be viable replacements for real computers. That
    means they're going to be running fully-fledged desktop operating
    systems.

    The most likely contenders in that field are future versions of the
    currently established desktop operating systems, with features added to
    toggle their interfaces into small screen modes on the go. Palm's
    chances of leveraging its mobile platform into a platform which can take
    on established fully-fledged operating systems are virtually
    nonexistent, IMO.

    > The only way that will work, however, is if the Foleo is roughly
    > equivalent to a laptop in usability. And it doesn't seem like it's there
    > yet.
    >
    > But, one of the reasons the Treo doesn't appeal to me is simply the size
    > of its screen. So, maybe. But then again, maybe not.


    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  9. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    Useful Info wrote:
    > Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org


    About all it offers is a guarantee that the linux delivered with the machine
    will run. The chip compatibility problems have to be addressed. That does not
    mean applications added by the user will also work if they do not use the
    drivers that do work with the machine.

    --
    How loyal can the US military be when it comes to grips with the lying
    political leadership?
    -- The Iron Webmaster, 3769
    nizkor http://www.giwersworld.org/nizkook/nizkook.phtml
    antisemitism http://www.giwersworld.org/antisem/ a1

  10. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    ZnU wrote:

    > > I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
    > > entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
    > > "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
    > > will be the size of the Foleo.
    > >
    > > It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
    > > and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
    > > a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
    > > Foleo when doing "intense work."

    >
    > I think it's very likely that in the long run, smartphones (docked to
    > appropriate display and input devices for different purposes) will
    > become the center of people's computing lives.


    Actually, I'm hoping for a slightly better alternative. I think the
    "phone" will become just a handset that connects wirelessly to your
    "personal device" or whatever you want to call it. Imagine a device
    the size of a wrist watch, that connects wirelessly to different user
    interfaces. A headset for talking on the phone, a small iPod nano-size
    display unit for making calls, listening to music. A larger (Nokia
    N800) one if you want to watch stored or streamed video. A Foleo-sized
    if you want to write texts, send email and so on. If you walk up to a
    desktop computer, your personal device shows up on the desktop and you
    carry your entire work area with you.

    The customer can buy the PD from a vendor and the interface from
    another, much like you do with bluetooth headsets today. You can pick
    and choose whatever components you think fits you, and no single
    component aims to be an all-in-one-solution, that is the focus for
    most devices today.

    So, your personal device, in the form of a wrist watch, is always with
    you. It's not "yet another device" since most people use wrist watches
    anyway. If they don't, buy the model that is a piece of necklace
    jewelry or something like that. Just make sure it's something you're
    likely to always be carrying with you.

    When you wake up in the morning, you go up to make some coffee.
    Detecting your presence, your flatscreen TV turns on and shows you the
    rss feeds that your PD has downloaded during the night. It also shows
    you your schedule for today.

    When you sit down in your car, your PD connects to your car and your
    in-car handset phone allows you to make calls and your in-car screen
    has you connected to the internet with your login and settings.

    At work, you login to your workstation with your PD and you can read
    your mail stored on it while also using the desktop-HD where your
    projects may be.

    Obviously, Microsoft Surface is a perfect interface for this kind of
    thing.


    --
    Sandman[.net]

  11. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    On Thu, 31 May 2007 22:54:03 -0700, Steve Hix
    wrote:

    >> Nope. Palm is dead.

    >
    >Maybe it just smells bad sometimes?


    Well, it's certainly a lively corpse. People have been pronouncing
    them dead for almost a decade now.
    --
    "It's a long story. And it ends with me on the roof of a goddamned nuthouse
    on Route 128 doing a one-man tribute to the Three Stooges."
    -- Art in "Eastern Standard Tribe"

    Roberto Castillo
    robertocastillo@ameritech.net

  12. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    On Fri, 01 Jun 2007 14:00:54 -0400, ZnU wrote:
    >
    >> As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
    >> moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
    >> the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
    >> a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
    >> the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
    >> the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.

    >
    >Palm isn't, as of yet, moving their actual PDAs to Linux. This is
    >somewhat baffling. Palm OS is really long in the tooth at this point.


    Palm has always been very conservative with their hardware and
    software -- sometimes too conservative. They'll probably move their
    PDA/smartphones to Linux once they are certain that moving to Linux
    won't break too many things. So the Foleo gives them a justification
    for moving to Linux but also builds in a delay so they can test it
    under real world conditions before trying to put it on a smartphone or
    PDA. It also allows them to get their beak wet in the shallow end of
    the laptop market without being saddled by the razor thin profit
    margins, bugs, and poor build quality normally associated with cheap
    laptops.

    History says that the Foleo will fail -- it closely resembles
    Microsoft's ill-fated Handheld PC platform. But Palm has at least
    tried to limit their risks as much as possible with this new platform.
    They could probably sell a few thousand of these, step back and see if
    they are making headway in the market, abandon the platform if they
    are not, and look for another next big thing without losing much
    money.
    >
    >I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
    >this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
    >(My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)


    I can't see myself using a smartphone without a keyboard. If anything,
    this Foleo has me looking harder at the video capable iPod. I can
    retire my LifeDrive and Treo 600 and upgrade to a Treo 680 and a 30GB
    iPod for slightly less than the price of the iPhone -- or the Foleo
    for that matter.

    Of course if a future version of the Foleo can somehow stream music
    and video off the iPod and had the horsepower for decent quality video
    and costs $100 less, I'll be all over it.
    --
    "This is a revolution dammit! We're going to have to offend
    somebody."
    -- John Adams in "1776"

    Roberto Castillo
    robertocastillo@ameritech.net

  13. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    Sandman wrote:

    > In article ,
    > ZnU wrote:
    >
    > > > I, too, think that this is currently a niche market. And I'm not
    > > > entirely sold on the viability of the concept. However, I think the
    > > > "vision" is not ignorant of the possibility that fully featured laptops
    > > > will be the size of the Foleo.
    > > >
    > > > It's that people will centralize their information in their smartphones
    > > > and want a better way to handle some of that information. Conceptually,
    > > > a Treo user can take all their information with them but only use the
    > > > Foleo when doing "intense work."

    > >
    > > I think it's very likely that in the long run, smartphones (docked to
    > > appropriate display and input devices for different purposes) will
    > > become the center of people's computing lives.

    >
    > Actually, I'm hoping for a slightly better alternative. I think the
    > "phone" will become just a handset that connects wirelessly to your
    > "personal device" or whatever you want to call it. Imagine a device
    > the size of a wrist watch, that connects wirelessly to different user
    > interfaces. A headset for talking on the phone, a small iPod nano-size
    > display unit for making calls, listening to music. A larger (Nokia
    > N800) one if you want to watch stored or streamed video. A Foleo-sized
    > if you want to write texts, send email and so on. If you walk up to a
    > desktop computer, your personal device shows up on the desktop and you
    > carry your entire work area with you.


    IMO, since you'd probably be carrying that handset accessory (at least)
    everywhere anyway, it's easier to just stick the processor and storage
    in there, along with whatever other functionality will fit without
    making it too big.

    I'd much rather carry around a single handset than a watch, a handset
    accessory, a camera accessory and a music player accessory.

    [snip]

    > At work, you login to your workstation with your PD and you can read
    > your mail stored on it while also using the desktop-HD where your
    > projects may be.


    For most people, it probably won't even be necessary to have a real
    desktop computer that the mobile device shares data with. The mobile
    device will probably have enough storage and processing power internally
    to store all the user's stuff, directly drive external display devices,
    etc.

    On the storage front, consider the fact that 256 GB 2.5" flash drives
    have just been announced. They're not shipping yet, but... project this
    out five or ten years. We're probably talking about terabytes of storage
    in a phone-sized device.

    Full-sized computers -- in which I include laptops -- could go the way
    of mainframes in the next couple of decades.

    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  14. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    ZnU wrote:
    > In article
    > ,
    > Derek Currie wrote:
    >
    >> In article ,
    >> Quaoar wrote:
    >>
    >>> Useful Info wrote:
    >>>> Read all about it, here: http://Muvy.org
    >>>>
    >>> Too little, too late, IMO. I have been a Palm supporter for what, a
    >>> decade? This "notebook" is going in the dumper since ANY notebook with
    >>> bluetooth should be able to perform the same functions. Note that this
    >>> does not have ANY wireless capability except bluetooth.
    >>>
    >>> Nope. Palm is dead.

    >> I hope not.
    >>
    >> But putting this thing out is a very poor decision. I was reading
    >> an article this morning about it where they spoke with the fellow
    >> from HandSpring who invented it. He said himself that its time of
    >> release should have been years ago when he thought of it. Instead
    >> he had to wait through the recent round of Treos before Palm
    >> would let him produce it.

    >
    > I'm not sure I really get the Folio. Sure, it's cheaper than one of
    > those tiny Sony laptops. And it's smaller than any of the cheap laptops
    > I've seen. And it probably gets better battery life than either.


    That's the point of it.

    >
    > There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
    > market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
    > with that battery life, and at that price.


    Imagine what the next version of the Foleo would be like, then.

    > A specialty device like the
    > Folio is going to get eaten alive by machines running real desktop
    > operating systems.


    I'd rather have something like this, actually. Assuming that it's open
    to third party development, anyway.

    >
    > They can't really make it any smaller, because it needs a 10" screen and
    > full-sized keyboard. They could keep it consistently cheaper than
    > fully-featured laptops. But remember, people are increasingly buying
    > laptops rather than desktops as their primary computers.


    A serious mistake, IMHO. Also, I think that trend is partly because
    laptops are so expensive, and wi-fi connectivity is so sporadic. I think
    Palm would do well to distribute this along with a VNC solution for end
    users (not just the geeks that know about it). Maybe include a built-in
    cell phone, and throw in a webcam for video conferencing. Market it as a
    "mobile companion" for people and their computing needs, not just mobile
    phones.

    > Five years from
    > now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your primary machine was a
    > desktop and you just wanted something portable for taking notes, etc.
    > the Folio might make sense.


    That's exactly what I use my PDA for. This makes a lot more sense. I
    need something that's small, light, durable, long-lasting, and cheap.
    Power is almost irrelevant, since the demands are so slight.

    > But if your primary machine is a supper-slim
    > laptop, are you really going to buy a Folio as well?


    More and more people are buying laptops, but they're buying the large
    "desktop replacement" sort. Or the cheapo piece of **** laptops you find
    in big box retailers. They certainly aren't paying the Sony premium to
    get those super-slim laptops. I think something like this, if marketed
    properly, could actually reverse that trend. If I can remotely access my
    desktop from something like this, why would I need the power of a
    full-scale laptop?

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >> As for Palm OS: It is nothing special. I have no doubt that
    >> moving to Linux is an improvement. The only problem is abandoning
    >> the zillions of Palm programs available. Hopefully they can build
    >> a Palm OS emulator into new more powerful devices. Considering
    >> the fact that they did exactly that for Mac OS X and Windows for
    >> the use of developers (I have a copy) I don't see any problem.

    >
    > Palm isn't, as of yet, moving their actual PDAs to Linux. This is
    > somewhat baffling. Palm OS is really long in the tooth at this point.


    They claim to be planning such a switch. They probably don't want to
    shock consumers though.

    >
    > I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
    > this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
    > (My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)


    I'd never even consider buying an iPhone. That looks like a disaster
    waiting to happen. Using your finger as the only input method? That
    sounds like a really bad idea. It's also not an open platform, so it
    will be constrained by Apple's usual reluctance to move against whatever
    function they have in mind for the device (even if the market is begging
    for something else).

  15. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    TheLetterK wrote:

    > ZnU wrote:


    [snip]

    > > There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
    > > market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
    > > with that battery life, and at that price.

    >
    > Imagine what the next version of the Foleo would be like, then.


    The same size, since it needs a full-sized keyboard and screen. Maybe
    it'll still have better battery life, but that doesn't matter after a
    point except for edge cases. And it might still be cheaper, but that
    also won't matter, because the price difference will be much smaller in
    absolute terms, and because it's not a viable replacement for your
    primary computing device, so if your primary computing device is already
    a super-slim laptop is won't have much value.

    [snip]

    > I think Palm would do well to distribute this along with a VNC
    > solution for end users (not just the geeks that know about it). Maybe
    > include a built-in cell phone, and throw in a webcam for video
    > conferencing. Market it as a "mobile companion" for people and their
    > computing needs, not just mobile phones.


    You're going to run VNC over cellular networks, and actually get
    something done? Not in the US you're not.

    > > Five years from now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your
    > > primary machine was a desktop and you just wanted something
    > > portable for taking notes, etc. the Folio might make sense.

    >
    > That's exactly what I use my PDA for. This makes a lot more sense. I
    > need something that's small, light, durable, long-lasting, and cheap.
    > Power is almost irrelevant, since the demands are so slight.


    I explicitly said there's a niche for this device today. It's just going
    to go away as devices in this price and size range gain the ability to
    run fully-fledged operating systems. Which is going to happen very soon.

    Hell, the iPhone is practically there already. And no wonder. It has
    more storage and probably more RAM than some Mac models which were
    supported by early versions of OS X.

    [snip]

    > > I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
    > > this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
    > > (My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)

    >
    > I'd never even consider buying an iPhone. That looks like a disaster
    > waiting to happen. Using your finger as the only input method? That
    > sounds like a really bad idea.


    You're dismissing an input method you've never used, without even
    bothering to offer an argument.

    People who have used it have said that once you get used to the system,
    it works pretty well. I'd guess it works better than handwriting
    recognition. Probably it doesn't work as well as a physical keyboard,
    but IMO a physical keyboard is not worth giving up half your potential
    screen area for. It's not as if you can do serious text entry on a thumb
    keyboard anyway.

    > It's also not an open platform, so it will be constrained by Apple's
    > usual reluctance to move against whatever function they have in mind
    > for the device (even if the market is begging for something else).


    It seems pretty clear at this point that Apple intends to open up the
    iPhone once things settle down and some technical issues are worked out.
    Jobs basically said as much at D.

    (When asked if the iPhone would support third party apps, he explained
    that "We would like to solve this problem and if you could just be a
    little more patient with us, wešll do it.")

    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  16. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    ZnU wrote:
    > In article ,
    > TheLetterK wrote:
    >
    >> ZnU wrote:

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >>> There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a dead-end
    >>> market. In a few years there will be fully-featured laptops that size,
    >>> with that battery life, and at that price.

    >> Imagine what the next version of the Foleo would be like, then.

    >
    > The same size, since it needs a full-sized keyboard and screen. Maybe
    > it'll still have better battery life, but that doesn't matter after a
    > point except for edge cases. And it might still be cheaper, but that
    > also won't matter, because the price difference will be much smaller in
    > absolute terms, and because it's not a viable replacement for your
    > primary computing device, so if your primary computing device is already
    > a super-slim laptop is won't have much value.


    That, and they'd have several years of picking up a market. They can
    lock people onto the platform through "killer" applications.

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >> I think Palm would do well to distribute this along with a VNC
    >> solution for end users (not just the geeks that know about it). Maybe
    >> include a built-in cell phone, and throw in a webcam for video
    >> conferencing. Market it as a "mobile companion" for people and their
    >> computing needs, not just mobile phones.

    >
    > You're going to run VNC over cellular networks, and actually get
    > something done? Not in the US you're not.


    A) I was thinking more for wi-fi networks.
    B) Not *yet*. Do you honestly think it won't improve over the next few
    years?

    >
    >>> Five years from now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your
    >>> primary machine was a desktop and you just wanted something
    >>> portable for taking notes, etc. the Folio might make sense.

    >> That's exactly what I use my PDA for. This makes a lot more sense. I
    >> need something that's small, light, durable, long-lasting, and cheap.
    >> Power is almost irrelevant, since the demands are so slight.

    >
    > I explicitly said there's a niche for this device today. It's just going
    > to go away as devices in this price and size range gain the ability to
    > run fully-fledged operating systems. Which is going to happen very soon.


    Yes, full fledged operating systems like *Linux*, which is what they're
    using. There is absolutely no reason that the current system they're
    using couldn't scale up.

    >
    > Hell, the iPhone is practically there already. And no wonder. It has
    > more storage and probably more RAM than some Mac models which were
    > supported by early versions of OS X.
    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >>> I've bought a couple of Palms, and its sad to see them flailing around
    >>> this way. Ahh, well. Apple is showing up with the iPhone just in time.
    >>> (My current Palm's touch screen is giving out.)

    >> I'd never even consider buying an iPhone. That looks like a disaster
    >> waiting to happen. Using your finger as the only input method? That
    >> sounds like a really bad idea.

    >
    > You're dismissing an input method you've never used, without even
    > bothering to offer an argument.


    I've used touch-sensitive keyboards before. I still haven't seen one
    that works well. I have no reason to believe that it will work better on
    a smaller area.

    >
    > People who have used it have said that once you get used to the system,
    > it works pretty well. I'd guess it works better than handwriting
    > recognition. Probably it doesn't work as well as a physical keyboard,
    > but IMO a physical keyboard is not worth giving up half your potential
    > screen area for. It's not as if you can do serious text entry on a thumb
    > keyboard anyway.


    I'm pretty good with graffiti, much better than I am pecking at such
    small keyboards.

    >
    >> It's also not an open platform, so it will be constrained by Apple's
    >> usual reluctance to move against whatever function they have in mind
    >> for the device (even if the market is begging for something else).

    >
    > It seems pretty clear at this point that Apple intends to open up the
    > iPhone once things settle down and some technical issues are worked out.
    > Jobs basically said as much at D.


    Jobs has lied before. "The one button mouse is here to stay!" "We'll
    have 3ghz G5s by the summer!" "Why would anyone want to watch video on a
    2 inch screen?" Etc, etc. First and foremost, he's a salesperson, and
    he'll do everything in his power to generate momentum for his new
    product. Even if it means lying.

  17. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    TheLetterK wrote:

    > ZnU wrote:
    > > In article ,
    > > TheLetterK wrote:
    > >
    > >> ZnU wrote:

    > >
    > > [snip]
    > >
    > >>> There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a
    > >>> dead-end market. In a few years there will be fully-featured
    > >>> laptops that size, with that battery life, and at that price.
    > >> Imagine what the next version of the Foleo would be like, then.

    > >
    > > The same size, since it needs a full-sized keyboard and screen.
    > > Maybe it'll still have better battery life, but that doesn't matter
    > > after a point except for edge cases. And it might still be cheaper,
    > > but that also won't matter, because the price difference will be
    > > much smaller in absolute terms, and because it's not a viable
    > > replacement for your primary computing device, so if your primary
    > > computing device is already a super-slim laptop is won't have much
    > > value.

    >
    > That, and they'd have several years of picking up a market. They can
    > lock people onto the platform through "killer" applications.


    I've already addressed this point. They're going to get toasted
    by fully-featured desktop operating systems, unless they build
    something similar in scope to a fully-featured desktop operating system
    and then gain widespread third-party support to make it a viable
    competitor to the systems already established in that market.

    The last time any new platform did this and succeeded was in 1984, and
    even that was cheating a bit, because while the Mac didn't really have
    any technical link to the Apple II, it was, of course, from a company
    already well established in the market.

    > >> I think Palm would do well to distribute this along with a VNC
    > >> solution for end users (not just the geeks that know about it).
    > >> Maybe include a built-in cell phone, and throw in a webcam for
    > >> video conferencing. Market it as a "mobile companion" for people
    > >> and their computing needs, not just mobile phones.

    > >
    > > You're going to run VNC over cellular networks, and actually get
    > > something done? Not in the US you're not.

    >
    > A) I was thinking more for wi-fi networks.


    Most WiFi networks are hooked up to broadband that's maybe 5-6 Mb/s at
    most, which is not really great for VNC. And upstream speeds on
    residential and low-end business connections suck, so odds are decent
    the desktop you're trying to remotely access can only push a megabit or
    less per second in your direction.

    > B) Not *yet*. Do you honestly think it won't improve over the next
    > few years?


    Yes, but local processing and storage are likely to improve more. The
    usefulness of being able to remotely access a desktop if you can have a
    couple hundred gigs of data on your PDA is going to be pretty marginal
    for most users.

    > >>> Five years from now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your
    > >>> primary machine was a desktop and you just wanted something
    > >>> portable for taking notes, etc. the Folio might make sense.
    > >> That's exactly what I use my PDA for. This makes a lot more sense.
    > >> I need something that's small, light, durable, long-lasting, and
    > >> cheap. Power is almost irrelevant, since the demands are so
    > >> slight.

    > >
    > > I explicitly said there's a niche for this device today. It's just
    > > going to go away as devices in this price and size range gain the
    > > ability to run fully-fledged operating systems. Which is going to
    > > happen very soon.

    >
    > Yes, full fledged operating systems like *Linux*, which is what
    > they're using. There is absolutely no reason that the current system
    > they're using couldn't scale up.


    There's no technical reason, if Palm is willing to invest enough
    resources. The numerous failures various companies have experienced
    trying to break into the market for personal computer operating systems
    have not generally been technical, however. Essentially, the problem
    everyone who tries this has is, they can't match the value networks
    which have built up around established players. Rich ecosystems of
    third-party hardware and software, user communities, user skill sets,
    etc.

    In order for Linux to save Palm here, they'd have to build it up as a
    general purpose desktop operating system *before* the day when the
    existing general purpose desktop operating systems swoop down into the
    mobile hardware market and devour the existing platforms there. With
    the pace at which mobile hardware platforms are advancing, they don't
    have a lot of time. And trying to launch a new desktop operating system
    is something which, as noted above, does not have a great success rate.

    Nor does it look like Palm is even attempting to do this.

    [snip]

    > >> It's also not an open platform, so it will be constrained by
    > >> Apple's usual reluctance to move against whatever function they
    > >> have in mind for the device (even if the market is begging for
    > >> something else).

    > >
    > > It seems pretty clear at this point that Apple intends to open up
    > > the iPhone once things settle down and some technical issues are
    > > worked out. Jobs basically said as much at D.

    >
    > Jobs has lied before. "The one button mouse is here to stay!" "We'll
    > have 3ghz G5s by the summer!" "Why would anyone want to watch video
    > on a 2 inch screen?" Etc, etc.


    In two of the three cases, Apple under-promised and over-delivered (the
    reverse would be true if Apple didn't support third-party apps on the
    iPhone). In the third, it's virtually certain that Apple believed there
    would be 3 GHz G5s by the summer, and that IBM subsequently failed to
    deliver.

    > First and foremost, he's a salesperson, and he'll do everything in
    > his power to generate momentum for his new product. Even if it means
    > lying.


    I doubt it. Jobs is no doubt aware of the long-term costs of such things.

    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  18. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    ZnU wrote:

    > > Actually, I'm hoping for a slightly better alternative. I think the
    > > "phone" will become just a handset that connects wirelessly to your
    > > "personal device" or whatever you want to call it. Imagine a device
    > > the size of a wrist watch, that connects wirelessly to different user
    > > interfaces. A headset for talking on the phone, a small iPod nano-size
    > > display unit for making calls, listening to music. A larger (Nokia
    > > N800) one if you want to watch stored or streamed video. A Foleo-sized
    > > if you want to write texts, send email and so on. If you walk up to a
    > > desktop computer, your personal device shows up on the desktop and you
    > > carry your entire work area with you.

    >
    > IMO, since you'd probably be carrying that handset accessory (at least)
    > everywhere anyway, it's easier to just stick the processor and storage
    > in there, along with whatever other functionality will fit without
    > making it too big.
    >
    > I'd much rather carry around a single handset than a watch, a handset
    > accessory, a camera accessory and a music player accessory.


    Obviously you'd have accessories that are all-in-ones as well. But for
    just making calls, all you need is a small in-ear headset, really. So
    you've basically removed the big device (phone, iPod) and kept the
    small devices you have anyway (wrist watch, headset).

    But the point wouldn't be to remove devices, it would be to remove all
    these devices that all strive to be all-in-ones. You wouldn't have a
    iPod + Nokia N95 + Nokia N800 + Palm Foleo that each tries to be
    complete solutions.

    The Nokie 800 would just be a terminal to your PD, as would all the
    rest. And you can choose - like today - which kind of terminals you
    want, but the data is the same for each.

    > > At work, you login to your workstation with your PD and you can read
    > > your mail stored on it while also using the desktop-HD where your
    > > projects may be.

    >
    > For most people, it probably won't even be necessary to have a real
    > desktop computer that the mobile device shares data with. The mobile
    > device will probably have enough storage and processing power internally
    > to store all the user's stuff, directly drive external display devices,
    > etc.


    No doubt. But there wills till be internal IT policies that restricts
    what kind of data you are allowed to take with you on your vacation

    > On the storage front, consider the fact that 256 GB 2.5" flash drives
    > have just been announced. They're not shipping yet, but... project this
    > out five or ten years. We're probably talking about terabytes of storage
    > in a phone-sized device.


    No doubt.

    > Full-sized computers -- in which I include laptops -- could go the way
    > of mainframes in the next couple of decades.


    Yes, they would be reduced to terminals for mobile devices.


    --
    Sandman[.net]

  19. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    In article ,
    Sandman wrote:

    > In article ,
    > ZnU wrote:
    >
    > > > Actually, I'm hoping for a slightly better alternative. I think the
    > > > "phone" will become just a handset that connects wirelessly to your
    > > > "personal device" or whatever you want to call it. Imagine a device
    > > > the size of a wrist watch, that connects wirelessly to different user
    > > > interfaces. A headset for talking on the phone, a small iPod nano-size
    > > > display unit for making calls, listening to music. A larger (Nokia
    > > > N800) one if you want to watch stored or streamed video. A Foleo-sized
    > > > if you want to write texts, send email and so on. If you walk up to a
    > > > desktop computer, your personal device shows up on the desktop and you
    > > > carry your entire work area with you.

    > >
    > > IMO, since you'd probably be carrying that handset accessory (at least)
    > > everywhere anyway, it's easier to just stick the processor and storage
    > > in there, along with whatever other functionality will fit without
    > > making it too big.
    > >
    > > I'd much rather carry around a single handset than a watch, a handset
    > > accessory, a camera accessory and a music player accessory.

    >
    > Obviously you'd have accessories that are all-in-ones as well. But for
    > just making calls, all you need is a small in-ear headset, really. So
    > you've basically removed the big device (phone, iPod) and kept the
    > small devices you have anyway (wrist watch, headset).


    Well, except realistically you need a little more than that. You want a
    screen on your phone, for instance. You need to select contacts and read
    text messages. And for sending text messages, you need some sort of text
    entry. One could imagine all this being done with speech recognition or
    text-to-speech, but one of the big reasons people use text messages is
    that they don't require you to talk or listen to anything (and thus can
    be exchanged while you're in a meeting, etc.), so that rather defeats
    the purpose.

    By the time you have a device large enough to have a screen and a keypad
    (or a screen large enough for a virtual keyboard), you might as well use
    that screen for web browsing and other PDA-type stuff. And you might as
    well add music player features and a camera, since those also won't make
    the device any bigger. And if you're going to have this device with you
    all the time, why not put your storage and processing in it, rather than
    trying to cram that into a watch?

    > But the point wouldn't be to remove devices, it would be to remove all
    > these devices that all strive to be all-in-ones. You wouldn't have a
    > iPod + Nokia N95 + Nokia N800 + Palm Foleo that each tries to be
    > complete solutions.
    >
    > The Nokie 800 would just be a terminal to your PD, as would all the
    > rest. And you can choose - like today - which kind of terminals you
    > want, but the data is the same for each.


    Centralizing data this way is useful. But it's also useful to reduce the
    number of devices people carry around. And that makes all-in-ones
    inherently valuable even if you do have a system that lets all your
    devices access the same data.

    > > > At work, you login to your workstation with your PD and you can read
    > > > your mail stored on it while also using the desktop-HD where your
    > > > projects may be.

    > >
    > > For most people, it probably won't even be necessary to have a real
    > > desktop computer that the mobile device shares data with. The mobile
    > > device will probably have enough storage and processing power internally
    > > to store all the user's stuff, directly drive external display devices,
    > > etc.

    >
    > No doubt. But there wills till be internal IT policies that restricts
    > what kind of data you are allowed to take with you on your vacation


    With high-speed networks, and the potential for augmented reality
    (projecting virtual images into your field of vision that appear to
    exist in the physical world), it's quite possible few people will
    physically show up at work in a couple of decades. The convenience of
    this will be so enormous that deliberately restricting access to data
    based on where people are physically located will probably only be done
    in very extreme cases.

    Fortunately, we'll probably have more secure computing systems by then,
    and better methods of authentication.

    [snip]

    --
    "That's George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing
    about him is that I read three--three or four books about him last year. Isn't
    that interesting?"
    - George W. Bush to reporter Kai Diekmann, May 5, 2006

  20. Re: Palm introduces Linux-based laptop.

    ZnU wrote:
    > In article ,
    > TheLetterK wrote:
    >
    >> ZnU wrote:
    >>> In article ,
    >>> TheLetterK wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> ZnU wrote:
    >>> [snip]
    >>>
    >>>>> There's probably a niche for that today, but it seems like a
    >>>>> dead-end market. In a few years there will be fully-featured
    >>>>> laptops that size, with that battery life, and at that price.
    >>>> Imagine what the next version of the Foleo would be like, then.
    >>> The same size, since it needs a full-sized keyboard and screen.
    >>> Maybe it'll still have better battery life, but that doesn't matter
    >>> after a point except for edge cases. And it might still be cheaper,
    >>> but that also won't matter, because the price difference will be
    >>> much smaller in absolute terms, and because it's not a viable
    >>> replacement for your primary computing device, so if your primary
    >>> computing device is already a super-slim laptop is won't have much
    >>> value.

    >> That, and they'd have several years of picking up a market. They can
    >> lock people onto the platform through "killer" applications.

    >
    > I've already addressed this point. They're going to get toasted
    > by fully-featured desktop operating systems, unless they build
    > something similar in scope to a fully-featured desktop operating system
    > and then gain widespread third-party support to make it a viable
    > competitor to the systems already established in that market.


    It's not at all the same situation. Right now, there *is* almost no
    ultra-mobile desktop platform. Laptops are as close as you get, and the
    vast majority of them are too large to be truly "ultra-mobile". Not to
    mention, Palm already *does* have a very large presence in the mobile
    computing market. Especially when it comes to smartphones and the like.

    I'm also wondering why you think the platform they're using for the
    Foleo wouldn't scale up, and won't accommodate third party development.

    >
    > The last time any new platform did this and succeeded was in 1984, and
    > even that was cheating a bit, because while the Mac didn't really have
    > any technical link to the Apple II, it was, of course, from a company
    > already well established in the market.
    >
    >>>> I think Palm would do well to distribute this along with a VNC
    >>>> solution for end users (not just the geeks that know about it).
    >>>> Maybe include a built-in cell phone, and throw in a webcam for
    >>>> video conferencing. Market it as a "mobile companion" for people
    >>>> and their computing needs, not just mobile phones.
    >>> You're going to run VNC over cellular networks, and actually get
    >>> something done? Not in the US you're not.

    >> A) I was thinking more for wi-fi networks.

    >
    > Most WiFi networks are hooked up to broadband that's maybe 5-6 Mb/s at
    > most, which is not really great for VNC.


    I've used it over lesser connections. It works well enough, even if it
    isn't perfect. In a few years, that capacity will be even greater.

    > And upstream speeds on
    > residential and low-end business connections suck, so odds are decent
    > the desktop you're trying to remotely access can only push a megabit or
    > less per second in your direction.


    Much, much less than a megabit per second. Of course, you don't really
    need anything even close to that for VNC to be usable.

    >
    >> B) Not *yet*. Do you honestly think it won't improve over the next
    >> few years?

    >
    > Yes, but local processing and storage are likely to improve more.


    We're well past the point where that doesn't matter.

    > The
    > usefulness of being able to remotely access a desktop if you can have a
    > couple hundred gigs of data on your PDA is going to be pretty marginal
    > for most users.


    The amount of data isn't as important as the speed at which the data can
    be processed.

    >
    >>>>> Five years from now, I'd expect this to be pervasive. If your
    >>>>> primary machine was a desktop and you just wanted something
    >>>>> portable for taking notes, etc. the Folio might make sense.
    >>>> That's exactly what I use my PDA for. This makes a lot more sense.
    >>>> I need something that's small, light, durable, long-lasting, and
    >>>> cheap. Power is almost irrelevant, since the demands are so
    >>>> slight.
    >>> I explicitly said there's a niche for this device today. It's just
    >>> going to go away as devices in this price and size range gain the
    >>> ability to run fully-fledged operating systems. Which is going to
    >>> happen very soon.

    >> Yes, full fledged operating systems like *Linux*, which is what
    >> they're using. There is absolutely no reason that the current system
    >> they're using couldn't scale up.

    >
    > There's no technical reason, if Palm is willing to invest enough
    > resources. The numerous failures various companies have experienced
    > trying to break into the market for personal computer operating systems
    > have not generally been technical, however.


    They wouldn't be *trying* to break into the desktop market. They'd just
    be expanding the functionality of existing mobile devices. There would
    be an overlap in functionality, but that doesn't mean the markets are
    exactly the same.

    > Essentially, the problem
    > everyone who tries this has is, they can't match the value networks
    > which have built up around established players. Rich ecosystems of
    > third-party hardware and software, user communities, user skill sets,
    > etc.


    Right, which is exactly why Palm wouldn't necessarily fall prey to
    (desktop) Windows and OS X entering the market. They already have a lot
    of experience dealing with this market, and they already have a very
    sizable collection of software geared specifically towards mobile users.
    What makes you think Vista or OS X would be able to compete with Palm?
    Long-time Palm users are already married to the platform because of the
    extensive collection of software, even with competition *in the existing
    market*.

    >
    > In order for Linux to save Palm here, they'd have to build it up as a
    > general purpose desktop operating system *before* the day when the
    > existing general purpose desktop operating systems swoop down into the
    > mobile hardware market and devour the existing platforms there. With
    > the pace at which mobile hardware platforms are advancing, they don't
    > have a lot of time. And trying to launch a new desktop operating system
    > is something which, as noted above, does not have a great success rate.


    There's not that much that needs to be done to make it an extremely
    viable competitor in this market. Linux is already be adopted on a wide
    scale in mobile devices. Why do you think Microsoft reworked their
    pricing arrangement for Windows Mobile?

    >
    > Nor does it look like Palm is even attempting to do this.


    What makes you say that? Have you looked at the screenshots?

    >
    > [snip]
    >
    >>>> It's also not an open platform, so it will be constrained by
    >>>> Apple's usual reluctance to move against whatever function they
    >>>> have in mind for the device (even if the market is begging for
    >>>> something else).
    >>> It seems pretty clear at this point that Apple intends to open up
    >>> the iPhone once things settle down and some technical issues are
    >>> worked out. Jobs basically said as much at D.

    >> Jobs has lied before. "The one button mouse is here to stay!" "We'll
    >> have 3ghz G5s by the summer!" "Why would anyone want to watch video
    >> on a 2 inch screen?" Etc, etc.

    >
    > In two of the three cases, Apple under-promised and over-delivered (the
    > reverse would be true if Apple didn't support third-party apps on the
    > iPhone). In the third, it's virtually certain that Apple believed there
    > would be 3 GHz G5s by the summer, and that IBM subsequently failed to
    > deliver.


    It still demonstrates that Jobs is willing to make claims without
    backing them up with action. One should never take what a salesperson
    says at face value.

    >
    >> First and foremost, he's a salesperson, and he'll do everything in
    >> his power to generate momentum for his new product. Even if it means
    >> lying.

    >
    > I doubt it. Jobs is no doubt aware of the long-term costs of such things.


    Then why has he consistently done just that?

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