Yet more musings about a modern Psion

Hello everyone,

It's been quiet in here for a while so I thought I'd start a new
discussion on an old topic. I've been looking at various recent and not
so recent web sites and forum discussions on a new Psion, what it should
have and who would want it.

I've noticed that everyone has a different opinion of what a new Psion
replacement should be. We all seem to like different things about the
Psion. Rather than a serious discussion about replacing our favourite
computer, I'm interested in what people actually like about it that's
missing from the current range of possible replacements. What's your
opinion?

....

Well, I may as well volunteer mine. For most people the hardware is the
focus, especially the keyboard. But if that's the case, then our dream
hardware was available during the Psion's lifetime, in the form of the
fast, colour, keyboard-equipped WinCE machines. They lacked what in my
opinion was the most important thing of all: the SOFTWARE.

The Psion's software was the best thing about it in my opinion. The OS
and applications are wonderfully tailored to the small screen, low
memory and relatively slow speed of the machine. I like Linux on the
desktop, but EPOC beats it on a Psion.

Word and Sheet are not "full featured" as some describe them, but are a
good balance between the lighness and simplicity of Pocket Word/Excel
and full-blown desktop applications. Data was relatively weak, but at
least it was there: modern machines (desktop and otherwise) could do
with a simple card-file database for things like collections and other
data that doesn't fit into the standard contacts model.

The standard PDA apps on the Psion are in my opinion just on a par with
current machines. I like the way they work better than Mobile Windows
equivalents, but I can't deny that the features of Contacts, Agenda and
Time/World are adequately represented nowadays. Internet is quite weak:
Email is mediocre and Web is atrocious; modern machines have the edge
here.

The one thing for me that puts the Psion above everything else is OPL.
Programming is out of fashion among gadget freaks nowadays, so this is
the reason I won't be replacing my Psion. But the availability of a
reasonably quick, powerful and easy to learn on-board language is what
gives the Psion a lot of its power. Even if you don't use it, the fact
that other people do so will improve your own experience because of the
applications that they can write.

....

So, what would my ideal dream machine be? Hardware wise I'd like to see
the 5mx form factor, or perhaps the Revo, with the specs expected of a
modern machine: including colour at 640x240 or thereabouts, and maybe
bluetooth for communicating with other devices.

It would probably, nowadays, have to have a Linux-based OS, but tailored
heavily to the machine; it would have to run a specially written window
manager rather than the usual Gnome and KDE.

The application suite would probably have to be specially written too,
which is why such a machine will never see the light of day. OpenOffice
as used on the EEE is really too big and fat to run on such a device,
but a small, reliable set of office apps with a feature set like Psion's
Word, Sheet and Data would still be ideal. They'd be useful on desktop
Linuxes too.

And most importantly, for me, a BASIC-like language that can take
advantage of all the facilities of the machine, while having a simple
syntax and easy learning curve, to fill the boots of OPL. It would hav
eto be capable of creating professional quality applications,
distributable and installable like any other application.

This fantasy machine would get my interest. The EEE is the closest
thing I've seen, and believe me if I'd had 200 quid to spare over the
past couple of years I'd doubtless have got one, even though I'd still
continue using the Psion.

....

Goodness, these musings went on longer than I thought they would. Is
anyone else going to join in?

--
Damian - [url]http://psion.snigfarp.karoo.net/[/url]
For email replies, substitute "psion" for "damian" in my email address.

On 18 Sep, 07:29, Damian Walker <dam...@snigfarp.karoo.co.uk> wrote:[color=blue]
> Hello everyone,
>
> It's been quiet in here for a while so I thought I'd start a new
> discussion on an old topic. I've been looking at various recent and not
> so recent web sites and forum discussions on a new Psion, what it should
> have and who would want it.
>
> I've noticed that everyone has a different opinion of what a new Psion
> replacement should be. We all seem to like different things about the
> Psion. Rather than a serious discussion about replacing our favourite
> computer, I'm interested in what people actually like about it that's
> missing from the current range of possible replacements. What's your
> opinion?
>
> ...
>
> Well, I may as well volunteer mine. For most people the hardware is the
> focus, especially the keyboard. But if that's the case, then our dream
> hardware was available during the Psion's lifetime, in the form of the
> fast, colour, keyboard-equipped WinCE machines. They lacked what in my
> opinion was the most important thing of all: the SOFTWARE.
>
> The Psion's software was the best thing about it in my opinion. The OS
> and applications are wonderfully tailored to the small screen, low
> memory and relatively slow speed of the machine. I like Linux on the
> desktop, but EPOC beats it on a Psion.
>
> Word and Sheet are not "full featured" as some describe them, but are a
> good balance between the lighness and simplicity of Pocket Word/Excel
> and full-blown desktop applications. Data was relatively weak, but at
> least it was there: modern machines (desktop and otherwise) could do
> with a simple card-file database for things like collections and other
> data that doesn't fit into the standard contacts model.
>
> The standard PDA apps on the Psion are in my opinion just on a par with
> current machines. I like the way they work better than Mobile Windows
> equivalents, but I can't deny that the features of Contacts, Agenda and
> Time/World are adequately represented nowadays. Internet is quite weak:
> Email is mediocre and Web is atrocious; modern machines have the edge
> here.
>
> The one thing for me that puts the Psion above everything else is OPL.
> Programming is out of fashion among gadget freaks nowadays, so this is
> the reason I won't be replacing my Psion. But the availability of a
> reasonably quick, powerful and easy to learn on-board language is what
> gives the Psion a lot of its power. Even if you don't use it, the fact
> that other people do so will improve your own experience because of the
> applications that they can write.
>
> ...
>
> So, what would my ideal dream machine be? Hardware wise I'd like to see
> the 5mx form factor, or perhaps the Revo, with the specs expected of a
> modern machine: including colour at 640x240 or thereabouts, and maybe
> bluetooth for communicating with other devices.
>
> It would probably, nowadays, have to have a Linux-based OS, but tailored
> heavily to the machine; it would have to run a specially written window
> manager rather than the usual Gnome and KDE.
>
> The application suite would probably have to be specially written too,
> which is why such a machine will never see the light of day. OpenOffice
> as used on the EEE is really too big and fat to run on such a device,
> but a small, reliable set of office apps with a feature set like Psion's
> Word, Sheet and Data would still be ideal. They'd be useful on desktop
> Linuxes too.
>
> And most importantly, for me, a BASIC-like language that can take
> advantage of all the facilities of the machine, while having a simple
> syntax and easy learning curve, to fill the boots of OPL. It would hav
> eto be capable of creating professional quality applications,
> distributable and installable like any other application.
>
> This fantasy machine would get my interest. The EEE is the closest
> thing I've seen, and believe me if I'd had 200 quid to spare over the
> past couple of years I'd doubtless have got one, even though I'd still
> continue using the Psion.
>
> ...
>
> Goodness, these musings went on longer than I thought they would. Is
> anyone else going to join in?
>
> --
> Damian -http://psion.snigfarp.karoo.net/
> For email replies, substitute "psion" for "damian" in my email address.[/color]

I have just ditched my Revo+ in favour of a combination of Nokia N95
and an second generation iPod Touch. The phone has an application
called JoikuSpot which makes the phone into a wireless hotspot, so I
can browse using the iPod if I wish. The iPod is actually quite good
for writing emails and short documents, and is of course much better
for web browsing. The way the iPod handles receiving emails is very
good, and handles pretty much any attachment sent to it, allowing me
to look at attached Office documents, PDFs and graphics files, but
more to the point, it handles HTML emails pretty well too.

The other thing I used the Revo+ for was to keep a library of eBooks
from the Baen free library. The Revo's 6 hour battery life whilst
reading was pretty good for long flights. The new iPod however can
manage more time now, if you reduce the back light brightness, which
of course in a darkened plane still gives it an advantage over the
Revo, as I can read without the reading light on.

The phone itself also does most of these things to a reasonable
degree. The web browsing is not as good as the iPod, but does support
simple flash content, which the iPod doesn't support at all. The email
client also handles email reasonable well, including opening most
attachments. Short Office documents open with a built in viewer, but
it struggles a with large and/or complex documents. It does run
MobiPocket though, which is my preferred ebook reader, the same as the
one I used on the Revo. I wish I could get the same for the iPod, but
there isn't one. The eReader on the iPod I am trying out, doesn't
support .PRC files unfortunately, so I'm still looking for the ideal
reader on there. That being said, Mobipocket on the N95, runs all day
without emptying the battery.

So...

I think I have finally weaned myself off the Revo, and will probably
end up putting them onto eBay. I wonder what they're worth nowadays, I
have a Revo and a Revo+, and one leather pouch, and I still have both
styli. I really don't know how I managed not to lose at least one of
those!

Damian Walker wrote:[color=blue]
> And most importantly, for me, a BASIC-like language that can take
> advantage of all the facilities of the machine, while having a simple
> syntax and easy learning curve, to fill the boots of OPL. It would
> have to be capable of creating professional quality applications,
> distributable and installable like any other application.[/color]

Have you looked at Basic4PPC ([url]http://www.basic4ppc.com/)?[/url] It is not as
powerful on a PDA as it is on the Windows desktop, but you can transfer the
same source to work on in both environments. Admittedly an executable can
only be created on desktop. Worth having a play with, anyway, as shareware.

Cheers, Mike.
--
If reply address is invalid, remove spurious "@" and substitute "plus"
where needed.

On 2008-09-18 07:29:48 +0100, Damian Walker <damian@snigfarp.karoo.co.uk> said:
[color=blue]
> It's been quiet in here for a while so I thought I'd start a new
> discussion on an old topic. I've been looking at various recent and
> not so recent web sites and forum discussions on a new Psion, what it
> should have and who would want it.[/color]

I've finally emerged from what I think of as the 'dark hiatus' when I
used an S60.3 Nokia E65. I loved using a Palm Treo 650 for a couple of
years after my years of using Psion from Series 3 through to a netBook.
The Palm was a fine little machine with a diary that synchronised well
and could be made to work like a Psion using DateBk. Unfortunately the
OS is archaic in computing terms and the inability to use non-western
characters in the in-built apps was a real limitation to someone who
needs that capability.

The Symbian platform seemed a logical choice for an ex-Psion user but
there are real differences from the platform I remember and I was
*never* happy using the S60 GUI and it's user antagonistic interface.
One thing I loved about the Psion platform and the Palm platform was
that there was software available to do almost *anything*.

Which brings me to the iPhone. This is a very different beast to the
Psion and Palm, being more media oriented than business oriented.
However the address book and diary synchronising is easily as good as
the Psion and Palm platform. More importantly, this is a device that
has the same simple, elegant, well thought-out interface that
characterised the classic Psion and Palm machines.

As to what a modern Psion should offer to the end user... A modern
colour interface, good battery life (no longer incompatible
requirements), a re-implementation of that unmatched Agenda application
that has never been beaten, native synchronisation to Outlook and
Google calendars, quad band mobile phone capability and 3G, a GMail
application, touch screen, all brought together in an innovative
folding keyboard. Not much to ask...
--
Cheers,

Steve

The reply-to email address is a spam trap.
Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk

Quoting Stephen's message of Yesterday:
[color=blue]
> I think I have finally weaned myself off the Revo, and will probably
> end up putting them onto eBay. I wonder what they're worth nowadays,[/color]

Revo prices seem to be low on eBay, at least on eBay UK. It may be
because people don't trust the battery life of a second-hand Revo. I've
bought three of them (two Revos and one Revo Plus), and not one of them
runs as it should. I can get a few hours usage out of one of them, if I
switch sound off on everything, but the others work for mere minutes
when off mains power. It's certainly put me off spending much on
another one!

P.S. Before anyone takes the trouble to offer advice on the battery
problem, I've already been through the usual charge/recharge cycles,
having spent a few weeks on it and a long thread on Psion Place, so I
think these really are hardware problems.

--
Damian - [url]http://psion.snigfarp.karoo.net/[/url]
For email replies, substitute "psion" for "damian" in my email address.

Quoting Mike Coon's message of Yesterday:
[color=blue]
> Have you looked at Basic4PPC ([url]http://www.basic4ppc.com/)?[/url] It is not as
> powerful on a PDA as it is on the Windows desktop, but you can transfer the
> same source to work on in both environments. Admittedly an executable can
> only be created on desktop. Worth having a play with, anyway, as shareware.[/color]

I've had a look at the web site and it is a very interesting and capable
system. But having to buy a third-party system isn't really the same as
having the language built in. And the necessity of building executables
on the desktop would put me off further.

Admittedly the Psion system isn't perfect--at the very least you need to
find a ZIP package on the Psion, or use the desktop machine, to package
up your application. But you can build the application completely on
the Psion, which is what I'd want out of any replacement platform.

Not that I'm looking for a replacement platform at the moment!

--
Damian - [url]http://psion.snigfarp.karoo.net/[/url]
For email replies, substitute "psion" for "damian" in my email address.

Quoting Steve Hodgson's message of Yesterday:
[color=blue]
> I've finally emerged from what I think of as the 'dark hiatus' when I used an
> S60.3 Nokia E65.[/color]

My "dark hiatus" was between 1992, when I lost my Organiser II LZ, to
1999 when I could afford to buy myself a secondhand Series 3a :-) I
must admit to having tried to use a Windows Mobile 5 smart phone for my
work while my 5mx was awaiting repair. It didn't to a very good job.
[color=blue]
> I loved using a Palm Treo 650 for a couple of years after my
> years of using Psion from Series 3 through to a netBook. The Palm was a fine
> little machine with a diary that synchronised well and could be made to work
> like a Psion using DateBk. Unfortunately the OS is archaic in computing terms[/color]

I know what you mean. I picked up a cheap Handspring Visor Deluxe, and
while it might be an interesting little toy, I can't see this or its
descendants having satisfied me as my primary PDA.
[color=blue]
> The Symbian platform seemed a logical choice for an ex-Psion user but there
> are real differences from the platform I remember and I was *never* happy
> using the S60 GUI and it's user antagonistic interface.[/color]

I liked my Nokia 3650, an S60 smart phone, but never got around to
developing for it because programmability isn't anything like as
convenient as the Psion. The open source OPL was in an unfinished state
for that system, too. It was never happy talking to my Psion using
infra-red; when it bit the dust I replaced it with a Nokia 6230i. It's
not a smartphone but transfers of contacts and SMS over infra-red is
trouble-free.
[color=blue]
> quad band mobile phone capability [...] all brought together in an
> innovative folding keyboard.[/color]

Do you think these requirements are compatible? If it has anything
approaching the S5's keyboard, it's going to make a pretty big mobile
phone!

--
Damian - [url]http://psion.snigfarp.karoo.net/[/url]
For email replies, substitute "psion" for "damian" in my email address.

On 2008-09-20 07:00:51 +0100, Damian Walker <damian@snigfarp.karoo.co.uk> said:
[color=blue]
>[color=green]
>> quad band mobile phone capability [...] all brought together in an
>> innovative folding keyboard.[/color]
>
> Do you think these requirements are compatible? If it has anything
> approaching the S5's keyboard, it's going to make a pretty big mobile
> phone![/color]

Not impossibly so. Companies like HTC seem to managing to squeeze these in.

<http://www.htc.com/www/product.aspx?id=57634>

You wonder what Martin Riddiford would do with that kind of idea today.
--
Cheers,

Steve

The reply-to email address is a spam trap.
Email steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk

Hi there I'm quiet new on google groups.

I used to be a happy Revo user & never found back a equally handy PDA

The keyboard & big screen are still unmatched IMO. I now have a HTC
sliding one.

I'm still waiting for someone to buy the REVO body & put in up to date
software (windows), processor and screen.

SMS and mail, GPS would be handy, phone not neccesary, I like the
combi simple / durable phone + PDA better then a comby. Finding info /
making notes while talking shouldn't be combined in a single small
machine IMO..

Are there IP / Bankruptsy issues preventing anybody using the perfect
looks good, fits in my suit / usefull keyboard combi?

I've been asking myself for yrs..

[email]kees.burger@gmail.com[/email] <kees.burger@gmail.com> wrote:
[color=blue]
> SMS and mail, GPS would be handy, phone not neccesary, I like the
> combi simple / durable phone + PDA better then a comby. Finding info /
> making notes while talking shouldn't be combined in a single small
> machine IMO..[/color]

True. And for my preference, a combined unit is usually too small to
be a usable PDA, too large to be a phone, or both.

--
Damian Walker
Add SAUSAGE to the subject of email replies to avoid my spam trap

> Are there IP / Bankruptsy issues preventing ...
Psion is not bankrupt, they just stopped catering for our market. They
are still in the handheld computer business with specialized devices.
The Psion PDA's are surely covered by design- and engineering
copyrights, so if one were to make a Psion Series 8 that were
basically an iPhone/Android in a Series 5 shell then yes, Psion would
be able to prevent that, at least to some extent. But that exact idea
is very attractive from the perspective of us users.

TorbenGB wrote:

[about the sliding keyboard design]
[color=blue][color=green]
>>Are there IP / Bankruptsy issues preventing ...[/color]
>
> Psion is not bankrupt, they just stopped catering for our market. They
> are still in the handheld computer business with specialized devices.
> The Psion PDA's are surely covered by design- and engineering
> copyrights, so if one were to make a Psion Series 8 that were
> basically an iPhone/Android in a Series 5 shell then yes, Psion would
> be able to prevent that, at least to some extent. But that exact idea
> is very attractive from the perspective of us users.[/color]

AIUI they still have patents on the sliding keyboard thing, and aren't
licensing it to anyone. But that was always a weak point in the design
anyway - reason why they broke down. A friend of mine had his HP200LX
for 8 years before I got my MC218, and was still using it after my
screen cable died. Why would anyone worry about that?

If you want to make it easy to hit keys on a small keyboard, the
critical dimension is not the size of the keys. It's the distance to the
edge of the *adjacent* keys. If you have calculator-style keys, and your
finger is slightly off-centre, you still hit the key and all is well as
long as you don't hit the next key. So the area you have to get your
finger into is considerably larger than the area of the key. This I
learned from using a Husky Hunter handheld (Z80 rugged handheld of about
20 years ago).

If you go for a keyboard with almost no gaps between the keys, then
having the extra couple of square millimetres that the slidy thing gives
you, is a good thing. But only *if*... and imho it's not necessary to do
that.

Reason I still have a 5mx, is mainly just that it can go for 2 weeks on
2 x AA cells, its OS suits it to being a handheld (zoom buttons on the
touchscreen, GUI designed for a small screen), it's a powerful enough
computer to do some programming with :) and it has a usable keyboard and
touch screen. The keyboard is a factor, yes. But that's not to say that
/only/ this design of keyboard is usable.

Frank

Frank Peelo <f32pnospam@eircom.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Reason I still have a 5mx, is [...] it's a powerful enough
> computer to do some programming with :) [...][/color]

What kind of programming do you do on the thing?

--
Damian Walker
Add SAUSAGE to the subject of email replies to avoid my spam trap

> AIUI they still have patents on the sliding keyboard thing, and aren't[color=blue]
> licensing it to anyone. But that was always a weak point in the design[/color]

IMHO the weak point is not the sliding keyboard in itself (which is a
brilliant way of making a device larger when open than when closed)
but rather the flat display cable that must flex every time you open
and close the device. Indeed, it wasn't (ever?) the keyboard that
stopped working but the display.
-- The solution would therefore be to keep the excellent keyboard but
replace the cable with a different solution, like one used in ordinary
laptops.

[color=blue]
> If you want to make it easy to hit keys on a small keyboard, the
> critical dimension is not the size of the keys.[/color]

The key shape is important, too. In fact, as long as the keys are
concave (shaped like a bowl) then you can put them closer together and
still don't need any space between the keys. The Psion's keyboard has
concave keys like real keyboards, thereby keeping the fingers where
they should be, in the "trough" of each key. It appears that all
modern devices have buttons that are either flat or convex so the
finger position isn't automatically calibrated, which makes it very
difficult to type without looking.

TorbenGB <torben@g-b.dk> wrote:[color=blue][color=green]
> > AIUI they still have patents on the sliding keyboard thing, and aren't
> > licensing it to anyone. But that was always a weak point in the design[/color]
>
> IMHO the weak point is not the sliding keyboard in itself (which is a
> brilliant way of making a device larger when open than when closed)[/color]

Is that true? If you look closer at the case it's just the centre of
gravity which is shifted to the best position. I don't think that there
is any gain in space. Nevertheless, the sliding mechanism makes the
Psion more usable _and_ stylish.

--
Oliver

> > IMHO the weak point is not the sliding keyboard in itself (which is a[color=blue][color=green]
> > brilliant way of making a device larger when open than when closed)[/color]
>
> ... I don't think that there
> is any gain in space. Nevertheless, the sliding mechanism makes the
> Psion more usable _and_ stylish.[/color]

You are right, the effect is to make it more stable and not tilt
backwards when you poke the screen.

Damian Walker wrote:[color=blue]
> Frank Peelo <f32pnospam@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Reason I still have a 5mx, is [...] it's a powerful enough
>>computer to do some programming with :) [...][/color]
>
>
> What kind of programming do you do on the thing?[/color]

Not a massive amount, now I commute on a motorbike. What I did do, was
under XTM and was mostly in TurboPascal. What I tried to do this year,
when going on holidays, was in C. That wasn't so successful, DOS based C
compilers being so old, which is why I was asking whether GCC could run
under EPOC.

Frank

Frank Peelo <f32pnospam@eircom.net> wrote:
[color=blue]
> Not a massive amount, now I commute on a motorbike. What I did do, was
> under XTM and was mostly in TurboPascal. What I tried to do this year,
> when going on holidays, was in C. That wasn't so successful, DOS based C
> compilers being so old, which is why I was asking whether GCC could run
> under EPOC.[/color]

Since the earlier part of our conversation I've come across the EMX
development files in my CD archive, including GCC. They are in fact
SIS files, so I wasn't mistaken in thinking it was GCC for EPOC. Are
you still interested in them?

If so you might get them more quickly with a google search for the
following file names:

emxbinutils-20020813.zip
emxdev-20020813.zip
emxgcc-base-20020813.zip
emxgcc-c-20020813.zip
emxgcc-c++-20020813.zip
emxuser.zip

They're probably still on the web somewhere but I'm off line so can't
search at the moment. I also have emxdev-20041223.zip but don't have
the compiler and other tools of release similar date, the reason being
lost in the mists of time (I wrote that CD last year).

--
Damian Walker
The World at Strife - newly released - psion.snigfarp.karoo.net

Damian Walker wrote:[color=blue]
> Frank Peelo <f32pnospam@eircom.net> wrote:
>
>[color=green]
>>Not a massive amount, now I commute on a motorbike. What I did do, was
>>under XTM and was mostly in TurboPascal. What I tried to do this year,
>>when going on holidays, was in C. That wasn't so successful, DOS based C
>>compilers being so old, which is why I was asking whether GCC could run
>>under EPOC.[/color]
>
>
> Since the earlier part of our conversation I've come across the EMX
> development files in my CD archive, including GCC. They are in fact
> SIS files, so I wasn't mistaken in thinking it was GCC for EPOC. Are
> you still interested in them?
>
> If so you might get them more quickly with a google search for the
> following file names:
>
> emxbinutils-20020813.zip
> emxdev-20020813.zip
> emxgcc-base-20020813.zip
> emxgcc-c-20020813.zip
> emxgcc-c++-20020813.zip
> emxuser.zip
>
> They're probably still on the web somewhere but I'm off line so can't
> search at the moment. I also have emxdev-20041223.zip but don't have
> the compiler and other tools of release similar date, the reason being
> lost in the mists of time (I wrote that CD last year).[/color]

Brilliant - Thanks!

I'll google for them, and have a go at installing them. Knowing me,
it'll probably be the new year before i know where I am, but it looks
like fun anyhow!

Frank

Frank Peelo <f32pnospam@eircom.net> wrote:
[color=blue][color=green]
> > emxbinutils-20020813.zip
> > emxdev-20020813.zip
> > emxgcc-base-20020813.zip
> > emxgcc-c-20020813.zip
> > emxgcc-c++-20020813.zip
> > emxuser.zip[/color][/color]
[color=blue]
> Brilliant - Thanks![/color]

I had a play with these, and the first problem I encountered complained
about, I think, a missing library. I've since claimed my disk space
back so I can't re-run but I'll be looking for the latest versions of
all the tools, ready for when I want to get back into GCC programming
again.

One problem I have with it is that, if the documentation is correct, it
will not work on ER3 or ER4. I haven't looked into whether this
applies to the applications you produce with it. I was going to try
this out when I encountered the error I mention above, as I want my
future programs to work on all EPOC32 machines.
[color=blue]
> but it looks like fun anyhow![/color]

Good luck with it! Let us know how you get on.

--
Damian Walker
The World at Strife - newly released - psion.snigfarp.karoo.net