Palm goes Windows Mobile - Scion

This is a discussion on Palm goes Windows Mobile - Scion ; Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:14:18 +1000 received comm from Eric Lindsay on channel comp.sys.psion.misc: : Luckily I have enough spare 5 and 7 to last me for a while. I had great : hopes for the ...

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Thread: Palm goes Windows Mobile

  1. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 12:14:18 +1000 received comm from
    Eric Lindsay on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : Luckily I have enough spare 5 and 7 to last me for a while. I had great
    : hopes for the Symbian approach, but each piece of news makes it seem
    : further and further away from a full scale computing device. I find the

    I have real doubts of the future of Symbian in any devices.

    : thumb keyboards not worth the effort, and I know I'm not going to carry
    : a separate keyboard, so I can't see myself going for any current PDA.

    I actually prefer the thumb boards as a trade off to get a smaller and more
    portable device. It will actually be more like the original Psion devices (for
    me the golden age with Series 3, 3a and Sienna), not the later ones of lesser
    quality.

    : My last hope now is that when Apple releases its Intel notebooks in a
    [ snip ]
    : However I'm not interested in running Windows again.

    Why wait for Apple???

    It still won't have any Psion or "big palmtop" advantages (low battery, instant
    on, EPOC, PIM applications, backwards software compatibility, etc). You just get
    the negatives with poorer hardware support and less software to run.

    If you for some reasons absolutely don't want Windows (I like it) you can run
    Linux or FreeBSD (which is the core of OS X). Apple makes nice designs, but I
    don't think they will ever make as small and portable machines as the
    revolutionary OQO notebook, the cool Sony Vaio U50, the super small Vulcan
    FlipStart, etc.

    http://www.oqo.com/
    http://www.dynamism.com/u50/
    http://minipc.vulcan.com/

    If I wanted something bigger *I* wouldn't actually want any Psion or Windows CE
    device, but a small Tablet PC. I really love that form factor (!), and it would
    still allow be not to be limited in any software or hardware selection (almost)!

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  2. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:13:04 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : expensive, and they are all heavier than the netBook/S7. I have a spares

    More expensive probably (and functionallity, power), but some of the really
    small PC isn't that much heavier. The NetBook 0.3543 kg and OQO 0.3991 kg.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  3. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 09:13:04 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : Symbian (I have a P910) is neither fish nor fowl: too big for a phone, too
    : small for a proper PDA. If the Nokia Communicator concept had chosen the

    The problem I have with the P900 range is that even if I prefer a smaller QWERTY
    keyboard (like Psion S3/a/Sienna, Treo, RIM, etc) to get a more portable device
    I think that the P900 type of phones has *way* too small keys (to the point that
    they are almost unusable).

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  4. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    In news:dhrspn$cu5$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk,
    Mike Coon typed:
    > Boris Borisovich wrote:
    >> The problem for Psion was always the connectivity. Why can Psion Word
    >> not save to RTF? Big mistake.

    > Especially since the Series 3 version could!
    >
    > Mike.



    Re
    nConvert does
    J


  5. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    "J" <00@SPAM.NOT> wrote in news:434198cb$0$8948$626a14ce@news.free.fr:
    snip
    > Re
    > nConvert does
    > J
    >
    >


    not the point - it is troublesome, and it should do it out of the box. As
    the above thread said, the Series 3 could do it, so why not EPOC R 5? I
    rememver spending some considerable amount of time trying to find the
    function on a Series 5 when it first came out.

    Lack of foresight - and let's not forget that it is such a wonderful
    platform. We all have grumbles - that's life - but the simplicity and
    power, long battery, instant on, we're still waiting for a device that can
    do all these things.

    The fact is, I have gone back to Psion after trying the PPC for some years,
    even with all the problems, it is faster and simpler. It does something
    very rare in the IT industry - it works (more or less).

    Boris

  6. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Mon, 03 Oct 2005 21:55:30 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : The fact is, I have gone back to Psion after trying the PPC for some years,
    : even with all the problems, it is faster and simpler. It does something
    : very rare in the IT industry - it works (more or less).

    I basically agree with you (if you talk about Series 3), but Psion's synch
    (PsiWin) has never work reliably for me. That and the actual build quality was
    the major show stoppers for me at the time (today I would miss a lot more things
    like bluetooth, music, GPS, etc).

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  7. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Martin T wrote in
    newss85k19a66qsiem0andkj2f2s4ekk8c032@4ax.com:


    >
    > I basically agree with you (if you talk about Series 3), but Psion's
    > synch (PsiWin) has never work reliably for me. That and the actual
    > build quality was the major show stoppers for me at the time (today I
    > would miss a lot more things like bluetooth, music, GPS, etc).
    >
    > martin
    >

    I agree with all you say - it is a shame about the synch software. Even to-
    day, the PC Suite that ships with Sony Ericsson is a disaster. I simply
    cannot understand how they continue to sell kit without dealing with this
    aspect.

    Build quality - again true, I am assuming that anything produced to-day
    would be better in this department.

    Boris

  8. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Mike Coon wrote:
    > > not save to RTF? Big mistake.

    > Especially since the Series 3 version could!



    My take on this:

    EPOC32 was planned to be sold to handset manufacturers from the start.
    Thus they made 300% sure that all of it was extremely proprietary,
    closed and the real documentation available only to those large
    corporations paying the large licensing fees. Normal customers were told
    "there are no file formats, it is a stream store philosphy". Licencees
    were given the real documentation to allow them to write their
    prorietary interfaces to the psion file formats.

    Consider how handset manufacturers want you to use their proprietary PC
    software to connect the phone to a computer. And from their point of
    view, you need to also consider theyr "real" customers, the mobile
    networks who want to make it possible to support individual customers
    who call to ask how they can do this and that on their phone.

    By having closed, proprietary software, especially if the mobile network
    has access to the configs to turn features on and off, it makes life
    much easier for the mobile networks.


    Another possible aspect: Perhaps PSION was really shortsighted and
    really expected people to pay the big bucks (licensing) to get the
    privilege of getting the real documentation on the prprietary fille
    formats etc.

    Remember that initially, the SDK was quite expensive (many complainst
    about that here), and it didn't include file formats. Only once Symbian
    took over did it make the basic SDK available. But by that time, it was
    rather moot since PSION had already visibly begun to just make their
    devices available to those who knew about them (as opposed to actively
    marketing them and trying to grow worldwide sales).

    In the end, PSION succeeded in what was probably its original goal:
    develop some OS and sell the IP, source and engineers to the mobile
    phone manufacturers. Remember that PSION Software had been created
    during development of EPOC32. It merely changed it name to Symbian. So
    EPOC32 was built and sold as a package that included not only the
    product, but also the company that created it.

    The last step that remains for the now comatosed PSION is to release
    EPOC16 (SIBO) source code to the public domain (including the emulator).

  9. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Boris Borisovich wrote:
    > I agree with all you say - it is a shame about the synch software. Even to-
    > day, the PC Suite that ships with Sony Ericsson is a disaster. I simply
    > cannot understand how they continue to sell kit without dealing with this
    > aspect.


    Just imagine if they had dropped the proprietary protocols and gone with
    TCPIP stack with FTP and possibly NFS for the actual transfers and
    backups. The machine could have interfaced to any machine with a TCPIP
    stack, no worries about stupid proprietary Windows-only software that
    didn't work on a large portion of users's machines.

    The S5 would have become quite a powerful tool, especially if the
    applications could export/import standard file formats like the S3 could.


    Note that Symbian eventually did put in on-board file converters. A sign
    that it was a mistake for PSION to make it such a closed architectire to
    begin with. But the delay in getting it is probably a large contributor
    to Symbian's demise.

  10. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    In article <4i03k1lt9jenjr5c8dukhlvda4vt82h1fd@4ax.com>,
    Martin T wrote:

    > : thumb keyboards not worth the effort, and I know I'm not going to carry
    > : a separate keyboard, so I can't see myself going for any current PDA.
    > : My last hope now is that when Apple releases its Intel notebooks in a
    > [ snip ]
    > : However I'm not interested in running Windows again.
    >
    > Why wait for Apple???
    >
    > It still won't have any Psion or "big palmtop" advantages (low battery,
    > instant
    > on, EPOC, PIM applications, backwards software compatibility, etc). You just
    > get
    > the negatives with poorer hardware support and less software to run.


    Why Apple? Given the iBook gets better than 4 hours battery life with a
    power hogging G4 CPU, I would think a Yonah based Apple should be up
    around the 7 hour mark. That is better than my NetBook can manage these
    days (although nowhere near my Psion 5). The Apple already has an
    instant on feature that is pretty close to Psion quality. I've been
    using that instant on for a year and a half now, and it is very stable.
    Plus I could live with a 7 hour battery life, given you can swap
    batteries on a Mac while the thing is sleeping (as long as you don't
    take more than about 30 seconds).

    The big advantage of EPOC was long term stability, and light weight
    operation. I'm getting uptimes of several months with OS X. Every now
    and then some OS upgrade wants a reboot, so I haven't tried for really
    long uptimes, like the several years I was used to with Solaris on Sun.

    PIM applications are a problem. Agenda is still better in some ways
    than iCal, but the gap is closing. Plus iCal does several things Agenda
    can't do. Since my time frame is over a year hence, I think it will be
    closer to a draw by then.

    Backwards software compatibility with Epoc is a problem. I haven't
    found a replacement for Malcolm Bryant's abp, for banking. But I can
    fake it with the US version of Quicken, which came with my Mac, because
    I don't need it to handle Australian VAT style taxes. I'd like a GPS
    moving map program, but since the Psion ones didn't have Australian maps
    anyhow, that isn't critical (there are a few things that will fudge it
    with your own maps, but Windows is stronger in that area).

    My Apple came with a bunch of programs, many of which quickly became
    favourites. If you know enough, you could find equivalents for Windows,
    but then they lack the integration with each other. I mostly haven't
    found lack of programs too much of a problem. Finding time to use them
    all, now that is a problem.

    > If you for some reasons absolutely don't want Windows (I like it)


    I tried an IBM laptop with Win XP Home before I tried the Mac. XP drove
    me insane, to the point where I was ready to throw the thing out. It is
    now in the hands of someone else, running BSD.

    > you can run Linux or FreeBSD (which is the core of OS X).


    I was advised by several Linux experts that Linux wasn't ready for
    desktop operation at the ease of use levels I wanted. Given they knew a
    lot more than me, I took their advice (and have been pleased with the
    results).

    >Apple makes nice designs, but I
    > don't think they will ever make as small and portable machines as the
    > revolutionary OQO notebook, the cool Sony Vaio U50, the super small Vulcan
    > FlipStart, etc.
    >
    > http://www.oqo.com/
    > http://www.dynamism.com/u50/
    > http://minipc.vulcan.com/


    These models are indeed small. However unlike Psion, I don't think any
    of these three have thought through their design. The OQO has a thumb
    keyboard, which I had already rejected for a PDA. So does the Vulcan.
    The Sony doesn't have a keyboard at all, except as an external one,
    which again I had already rejected in PDAs. Plus unless Windows has
    been modified, I suspect the display will be unreadable by anyone with
    older eyes. If any of these models have the display magnify feature
    like Psion did, I'd love to know about it.

    > If I wanted something bigger *I* wouldn't actually want any Psion or Windows
    > CE
    > device, but a small Tablet PC. I really love that form factor (!), and it
    > would
    > still allow be not to be limited in any software or hardware selection
    > (almost)!


    I need a keyboard. I love the Psion touch screen, but by itself it
    isn't enough. I use the keyboard way too much to go with handwriting
    recognition (which the Apple has anyway, thanks to the Newton stuff
    ported to it). That was why the Palm and Windows CE models didn't seem
    worthwhile as a Psion replacement.

    --
    http://www.ericlindsay.com

  11. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    JF Mezei wrote in
    news:4344A135.39255AEA@teksavvy.com:

    > Mike Coon wrote:
    >> > not save to RTF? Big mistake.

    >> Especially since the Series 3 version could!

    >
    >
    > My take on this:
    >
    > EPOC32 was planned to be sold to handset manufacturers from the start.
    > Thus they made 300% sure that all of it was extremely proprietary,
    > closed and the real documentation available only to those large
    > corporations paying the large licensing fees. Normal customers were
    > told "there are no file formats, it is a stream store philosphy".
    > Licencees were given the real documentation to allow them to write
    > their prorietary interfaces to the psion file formats.
    >
    > Consider how handset manufacturers want you to use their proprietary
    > PC software to connect the phone to a computer. And from their point
    > of view, you need to also consider theyr "real" customers, the mobile
    > networks who want to make it possible to support individual customers
    > who call to ask how they can do this and that on their phone.
    >
    > By having closed, proprietary software, especially if the mobile
    > network has access to the configs to turn features on and off, it
    > makes life much easier for the mobile networks.
    >
    >
    > Another possible aspect: Perhaps PSION was really shortsighted and
    > really expected people to pay the big bucks (licensing) to get the
    > privilege of getting the real documentation on the prprietary fille
    > formats etc.
    >
    > Remember that initially, the SDK was quite expensive (many complainst
    > about that here), and it didn't include file formats. Only once
    > Symbian took over did it make the basic SDK available. But by that
    > time, it was rather moot since PSION had already visibly begun to just
    > make their devices available to those who knew about them (as opposed
    > to actively marketing them and trying to grow worldwide sales).
    >
    > In the end, PSION succeeded in what was probably its original goal:
    > develop some OS and sell the IP, source and engineers to the mobile
    > phone manufacturers. Remember that PSION Software had been created
    > during development of EPOC32. It merely changed it name to Symbian. So
    > EPOC32 was built and sold as a package that included not only the
    > product, but also the company that created it.
    >
    > The last step that remains for the now comatosed PSION is to release
    > EPOC16 (SIBO) source code to the public domain (including the
    > emulator).
    >


    I think the assumption underlying all this is that Psion actually had a
    plan throughout this period. I think that assumption is false. They had
    an easy ride for the period up to the end of the Series 3's production
    life with an amazingly loyal customer base (remember the problem with
    the Series 3's buttons?). As soon as they produced the Series 5, the
    writing was on the wall and they were in react mode - react to Palm in
    particular, but also to the recently born WinCE. Hence producing the
    Series 5 before they had really finished the OS. Hence the 5mx produced
    in quick succession.

    At that point their account at the Bank of Ideas was out of funds, and
    all they did was more of the same. 5mx too big? Make the Revo. Revo not
    enough memory? Make the Revo Plus. 5mx too small? Make the Series 7.

    With the netBook they had the germ of an idea, but it was too late. Too
    little innovation, fast retreat into the heartlands, which then fell to
    Palm, and latterly Microsoft. They were also hampered, as you rightly
    say, by the proprietary approach they had adopted - but more than all of
    this, proprietary would have worked if they had had the market clout.

    I think the idea that Psion cleverly thought that they could develop a
    world-beating micro OS with micro apps and then sell it is
    retrospectively crediting them with too much sense.

    Boris

  12. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    BC wrote:

    " I like Firefox, but that's not really going after
    Microsoft's core business like an updated Communicator/
    server product would have. "

    ---


    The reason Firefox is so popular is that is smaller and less clumsy
    compared to the "Communicator suite". Mozilla is still available as a
    "Communicator suite" but is less popular than the standalone Firefox
    and Thunderbird.

    I don't think you win over Microsoft with yet more corporate warfare
    and yet more bloated products which don't benefit the user. The way
    forward, in my opinion, is to continue to implement, improve and use
    open standards like IMAP (mail) and SyncML (calendar synchronisation).

    Erik Sandblom


  13. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Thu, 06 Oct 2005 00:06:58 -0400 received comm from JF
    Mezei on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : Just imagine if they had dropped the proprietary protocols and gone with
    : TCPIP stack with FTP and possibly NFS for the actual transfers and
    : backups. The machine could have interfaced to any machine with a TCPIP
    : stack, no worries about stupid proprietary Windows-only software that
    : didn't work on a large portion of users's machines.

    A good idea, or an even simpler one, use standard USB MSD (mass storage device).
    Just connect the machine and transfer files directly without any configuration
    or hassle (both on Windows, OS X, Linux/*BSD).

    : The S5 would have become quite a powerful tool, especially if the
    : applications could export/import standard file formats like the S3 could.

    This is what I liked most about the S3. I disliked the S5 when it was released
    for missing that (and some other things I didn't like), and I still miss that in
    Windows Mobile today. It's almost stupid to no be able to save in common
    formats. I can understand the need to save files locally in more efficient
    formats, but you should be able to import and export to common formats
    absolutely directly (without synch software, conduits, etc).

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  14. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Martin T?rnsten wrote:

    " This was a mistake as the
    technology made the PC based notebooks smaller, thinner, lighter and
    consume
    less power. Customers clearly preferred light full desktop Windows
    machines over
    Symbian and Windows CE/HPC based notebooks. "

    -----


    But they still don't have long enough battery time -- a day should be
    the minumum. And they break when you drop them, which is a shame for a
    device intended to be carried.

    I think the reason people bought laptops was that they were afraid of
    using anything that was not MS Windows and MS Office, and they
    overestimated the difficulty and inconvenience of using anything else.
    The very sad part about that, is that in so doing, they bought machines
    that break when you drop them, and run out of gas within a few hours.
    In short, they fail when used as intended.

    Editing a desktop PC document on a PDA will always be a compromise, but
    that's not because PDAs are worse, it's because 100% compatibility
    between programs and even program versions will never be achieved. Once
    you accept that, you can start enjoying the benefits of using a device
    appropriate for the situation.

    Let me compare to cars -- many people think cars and airplanes are the
    only way to get around. Such people might feel that a small car would
    be best for getting around in a big crowded city. That's the laptop
    mentality -- basically using an inferior car. I submit that getting
    around in a big crowded city is best done by using public transport,
    walking and biking. That's the PDA mentality -- leaving the car idea
    entirely. By accepting the drawbacks you can enjoy the benefits.

    Erik Sandblom


  15. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    eriksandblom@yahoo.co.uk wrote in news:1128631584.674146.146300
    @g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:

    snip (for brevity - no offence meant!)
    >
    > Erik Sandblom
    >
    >


    Hear hear Erik, I agree with every word you say.

    The challenge for the PDA maker is to minimise the difficulties, not come
    up with something that is perfect for all occasions or be a substitute for
    proper stuff back at the home/office.

    For me the netBook concept was the winner in this category and STILL
    deserves to be developed further. The 5mx also wins in this category and
    should be onward developed.

    Just putting slimmed down Windows on a Pocket PC does not work: it is just
    a window on your data, which you are expected to manipulate when you get
    back to the office. The device may be smaller to carry around (but not that
    small), but it is useless as a device to do proper work on.

    For years I used the 5mx, and would type out draft documents after meetings
    when I was away from the office, transfer across to a desktop later and
    then "top and tail" them. Perfect. The netBook makes it even easier to do.
    Perfect +. And both of them will give you a fair day's work. Even more
    perfect.

    Boris

  16. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    In article , Martin T wrote:
    > A good idea, or an even simpler one, use standard USB MSD (mass storage device).
    >

    At the time that the Psion 5 (or even 5MX) came out, there was *no*
    accepted standard for an interface for a MSD which could be hot-plugged into 90%
    or better of personal computers (IBM-PC-compatibles, Macs, Acorns, Beebs, or
    anything else that was out there AT THAT TIME). The only two interfaces that were
    likely (but not certain!) to be present on most machines were serial (RS-232 on
    PCs, RS-442 or -422 on Macs) or Centronics-parallel (with an IEEE number I can't
    remember) with three significantly different operating modes supported by
    different generations of chipsets and a basic mode capable of 8 bits/ clock strobe
    in one direction and no more than 4 bits in the other direction.
    The closest approach at the time (and the one that I invested about 1/3 of
    the price of my Psion in, and which served me in a heterogenous environment for
    about 4 years, which is pretty good!) was the Zip disc. And believe me, the
    hassles I had with managed computers that didn't allow me to install Zip drivers
    were sufficient to hone my skills at breaking into computers.
    These days I carry a USB to IDE adaptor and I *know* that I can move data.

    --
    Aidan Karley,
    Aberdeen, Scotland,
    Location: +57°10' , -02°09' (sub-tropical Aberdeen), 0.021233
    Written at Fri, 07 Oct 2005 10:32 +0100


  17. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Thu, 06 Oct 2005 16:47:39 +1000 received comm from
    Eric Lindsay on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : The big advantage of EPOC was long term stability, and light weight
    : operation. I'm getting uptimes of several months with OS X. Every now
    : and then some OS upgrade wants a reboot, so I haven't tried for really
    : long uptimes, like the several years I was used to with Solaris on Sun.

    Windows doesn't have any problems with up time compared to OS X.

    Here is system info from this machine:

    > C:\Documents and Settings\Martin> systeminfo
    >
    > Host Name: COMPAQ-IPAQ-XP
    > OS Name: Microsoft Windows XP Professional
    > OS Version: 5.1.2600 Service Pack 2 Build 2600
    > OS Manufacturer: Microsoft Corporation
    > OS Configuration: Standalone Workstation
    > OS Build Type: Uniprocessor Free
    > Registered Owner: Lovisa Johansson
    > Registered Organization: MTS Technology
    > Product ID: 55276-010-2021423-22040
    > Original Install Date: 2001-11-09, 15:54:23
    > System Up Time: 14 Days, 5 Hours, 30 Minutes, 9 Seconds
    > System Manufacturer: Compaq
    > System Model: iPaq
    > System type: X86-based PC
    > Processor(s): 1 Processor(s) Installed.
    > [01]: x86 Family 6 Model 8 Stepping 6 GenuineIntel ~730 Mhz
    > BIOS Version: COMPAQ - 20000707


    Restarted for hotfix two weeks ago, but otherwise it can stay up for months with
    daily usages from both me and my wife without any problems.

    This server (running Windows 2000) has been up for more than 1000 days:
    http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/graph?....antliateam.it

    Stability and up time isn't any problem for Windows (assuming good hardware and
    device drivers), except that I really *hate* having to reboot for some system
    updates.

    I really hope Microsoft makes away with those (I have read that they are working
    on a technology to update the kernel while running, who will be used in future
    Windows systems).

    : PIM applications are a problem. Agenda is still better in some ways
    : than iCal, but the gap is closing. Plus iCal does several things Agenda
    : can't do. Since my time frame is over a year hence, I think it will be
    : closer to a draw by then.

    I haven't looked at iCal. I personally use Outlook as it has been the standard
    for all the companies I have worked for. Perhaps I could bother to find some
    better calendar, but I know it and it works fine for me, so I'm happy.

    : Backwards software compatibility with Epoc is a problem. I haven't

    Yes, I guess they don't have any Psion/EPOC emulators for Mac OS?

    : but then they lack the integration with each other. I mostly haven't
    : found lack of programs too much of a problem. Finding time to use them
    : all, now that is a problem.

    I like OS X, but besides that I don't want to buy into that expensive hardware,
    I couldn't use a lot of software and hardware that I use to day (like my Polar
    S720i Bicycle computer & Hart Rate Monitor, or my Suunto D9 dive computer).

    I wouldn't be able to connect them (no USB drivers for Mac OS), and I wouldn't
    be able to run the software packages with them (as they don't have any versions
    for Mac). Just two very important examples (for me personally), but I would miss
    a lot of other software as well like Visual Studio and ability to run both ASP
    and .NET code (for me professionally).

    : I tried an IBM laptop with Win XP Home before I tried the Mac. XP drove
    : me insane, to the point where I was ready to throw the thing out. It is

    Strange. I know a lot of loyal Mac fans, but that seems (to me at least) rather
    extreme. I'm curious about what problems you had with it?

    : I was advised by several Linux experts that Linux wasn't ready for
    : desktop operation at the ease of use levels I wanted. Given they knew a

    Well, I tend to agree with that. It's probably more attractive for some computer
    hobbyists and professionals than the average users.

    : > http://www.oqo.com/
    : > http://www.dynamism.com/u50/
    : > http://minipc.vulcan.com/
    :
    : These models are indeed small. However unlike Psion, I don't think any
    : of these three have thought through their design. The OQO has a thumb
    : keyboard, which I had already rejected for a PDA. So does the Vulcan.

    Personally, as for a PDA, I prefer the trade off of a small thumb keyboard to
    get a really portable (as in able to easily put in any pocket) device that I can
    always bring me.

    I can see the use and benefit of larger PDA in some circumstances (I have an old
    HP Jornada machine), but that would in that case have to an *additional* machine
    that I just bring in those cases I know I will have the special need for it

    : The Sony doesn't have a keyboard at all, except as an external one,
    : which again I had already rejected in PDAs. Plus unless Windows has
    : been modified, I suspect the display will be unreadable by anyone with
    : older eyes. If any of these models have the display magnify feature
    : like Psion did, I'd love to know about it.

    No, haven't seen that feature (it's really a great Psion feature I agree).

    : I need a keyboard. I love the Psion touch screen, but by itself it

    I hate it because it makes for a *terrible* screen. Fuzzy and hard to see (and I
    have perfect vision with my glasses on). The much older Psion S3a (still have
    one!) has a much better screen thanks to not being a touch screen (as on the
    Series 5 and later).

    : isn't enough. I use the keyboard way too much to go with handwriting
    : recognition (which the Apple has anyway, thanks to the Newton stuff
    : ported to it). That was why the Palm and Windows CE models didn't seem
    : worthwhile as a Psion replacement.

    My Windows CE machine has a great keyboard (the problem is that just like the
    Psion it's rather outdated when it comes to new software, and as I have become
    more lazy over time, also a bit too big to normally bring it with me).

    But I don't say, or trying to argue, that I'm in any way more right than you.

    After all it's (mostly) a matter of both personal needs and personal
    preferences.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  18. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Fri, 07 Oct 2005 11:00:09 +0100 received comm from
    Aidan Karley on
    channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : In article , Martin T wrote:
    : > A good idea, or an even simpler one, use standard USB MSD (mass storage device).

    : At the time that the Psion 5 (or even 5MX) came out, there was *no*

    [ snip ]

    I know. I was talking about great ideas for future models (and not just
    Psion/Symbian devices). I was perhaps a bit unclear about that, but I liked JF's
    ideas with using some sort of established standard connection who don't require
    any special software install.

    : about 4 years, which is pretty good!) was the Zip disc. And believe me, the
    : hassles I had with managed computers that didn't allow me to install Zip drivers
    : were sufficient to hone my skills at breaking into computers.

    Yes, that's why I like the idea of not needing to install any special synch
    software. At work all computers are locked down, and even if my mobile phone has
    USB, I have to install ActiveSync to be able to transfer any files. That sucks.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  19. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate 6 Oct 2005 13:46:24 -0700 received comm from
    eriksandblom@yahoo.co.uk on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : But they still don't have long enough battery time -- a day should be
    : the minumum. And they break when you drop them, which is a shame for a
    : device intended to be carried.
    :
    : I think the reason people bought laptops was that they were afraid of
    : using anything that was not MS Windows and MS Office, and they
    : overestimated the difficulty and inconvenience of using anything else.
    : The very sad part about that, is that in so doing, they bought machines
    : that break when you drop them, and run out of gas within a few hours.
    : In short, they fail when used as intended.

    Battery life, yes I agree (but neither Netbook or Series 7 is near the life of
    my Psion S3a, HP Jornada or my Smartphone).

    Break, no. I have had several Psion (both Series 3 and 3a) break when dropped,
    and this happened to a lot of people I know.

    I have dropped my notebook (HP Omnibook 500) a couple of times, and just got
    some ugly scratches on it's magnesium case, but nothing more.

    : Editing a desktop PC document on a PDA will always be a compromise, but
    : that's not because PDAs are worse, it's because 100% compatibility
    : between programs and even program versions will never be achieved. Once

    Exactly. That's why a lot of people (I would say most) prefer the trade off in
    battery life vs the trade off in not being able to install your normal software.

    This is why not only Netbook, both also notebook Windows CE machines failed. The
    format wasn't a good compromise for most users.

    : you accept that, you can start enjoying the benefits of using a device
    : appropriate for the situation.

    I can very well see that you can have valid reason for some exceptions, but they
    was simply to few to be economically viable for the computer manufactures.

    : Let me compare to cars -- many people think cars and airplanes are the
    : only way to get around. Such people might feel that a small car would
    : be best for getting around in a big crowded city. That's the laptop
    : mentality -- basically using an inferior car. I submit that getting
    : around in a big crowded city is best done by using public transport,
    : walking and biking. That's the PDA mentality -- leaving the car idea
    : entirely. By accepting the drawbacks you can enjoy the benefits.

    I like to walk, and also sometimes use my bike for transportation (even it's
    mostly for exercise and pleasure), and also use public transport. That said I
    also sometimes like to take our car even if just in the city (if it rains, if it
    doesn't fit well with public transportation routes or time table, if I need to
    transport or shop things, etc).

    Usually these kind of analogic examples isn't very valid. That said, if we
    should make some, I could compare my smartphone with walking; it's always with
    me and ready to be used whenever I want it. Sure, it's a compromise (I mostly
    miss a QWERTY keyboard), but it's better than all other solution because of it's
    near 100% portability and availability.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

  20. Re: Palm goes Windows Mobile

    Captain's log. On StarDate Fri, 07 Oct 2005 07:53:44 -0000 received comm from
    Boris Borisovich on channel comp.sys.psion.misc:

    : The challenge for the PDA maker is to minimise the difficulties, not come
    : up with something that is perfect for all occasions or be a substitute for
    : proper stuff back at the home/office.
    :
    : For me the netBook concept was the winner in this category and STILL
    : deserves to be developed further. The 5mx also wins in this category and
    : should be onward developed.

    I don't agree at all.

    I think (and this all isn't absolutes, it's personal opinions and preferences)
    that Psion should have never done the 5mx, and instead continued with it's
    smaller (and for me more functional) Series 3 machines. If they had done that
    and combined it with cellular functionallity, they might have been as successful
    as RIM (with it's BlackBerry devices) or Palm (with it's Treo devices) is today.

    : Just putting slimmed down Windows on a Pocket PC does not work: it is just

    I don't use Pocket PC (even if I use and are very happy with Smartphone version
    of WM on my cellular), but it obviously does for a lot of people.

    The problem with Pocket PC (or Windows CE) as a replacement for a real notebook
    with a desktop version of Windows, is exactly the same as for Psion Netbook.

    You still have a trade off in which software you can install and run on it.
    That's why the larger Jupiter devices (Windows CE for Netbook type of devices)
    utterly failed to be successful in the general market (Psion ironically use
    Windows CE for that kind of machines they sell today, but it's a very small
    niche market for special usage).

    : a window on your data, which you are expected to manipulate when you get
    : back to the office. The device may be smaller to carry around (but not that
    : small), but it is useless as a device to do proper work on.

    If think your too much judgmental and bashing here ("useless", etc) as a lot of
    people actually use them like that. Personally (and I can only speak for my own
    usage and preferences) I also think they generally are too big. That's why I use
    the Smart Phone version of Windows Mobile (same OS as Pocket PC is based on). It
    can go with me easily as it's extremely portable (I think my Qtek 8010 is still
    the worlds smallest smartphone).


    : For years I used the 5mx, and would type out draft documents after meetings
    : when I was away from the office, transfer across to a desktop later and
    : then "top and tail" them. Perfect. The netBook makes it even easier to do.

    And a notebook makes it *even easier* to do. To sum this all up; it's a matter
    of needs and preferences on what sort of compromises you want to do (because it
    will *always* be some sort of compromise), and for most people the "large PDA"
    devices hasn't been what they want.

    martin

    --
    Martin Törnsten - http://martin.tornsten.com/

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