"Paul Taylor" wrote in message news:3fe7b112@news.greennet.net...
> Was news to me anyway.
>
> http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=PSI_NETBOOK
>
As it says on the page, it has been superceded by this:
http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=107876

Ric wrote:
> "Paul Taylor" wrote in message news:3fe7b112@news.greennet.net...
>
>>Was news to me anyway.
>>
>>http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=PSI_NETBOOK
>>
>
> As it says on the page, it has been superceded by this:
> http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=107876

Yes, but that runs a crap O/S.

--
the Entity Formerly Known As Jazz

Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:
God said, "Let Newton be!"
And all was light.
(Alexander Pope)

>> As it says on the page, it has been superceded by this:
>> http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=107876
> Yes, but that runs a crap O/S.

We are talking about the new Netbook PRO from Psion Teklogix, running a
CE.Net system from Microsoft.

There are some boot options, which I described this morning in
PDAstreet:

Please remove the accu cell and backup batteries. Wait 1 Minute. Insert
the accu cell again while holding CTRL-D and ESC. The netbook PRO boots
up again but will stop with a boot menu:

1. run main OS
2. clean start main OS
3. begin YMODEM load
4. show configuration
5.-8. Audio/display/touch/RAM tests
9. erase flash file system

Its a interesting starting point to dream about a different OS (Linux?)
to load on the fantastic piece of hardware, the new netbook PRO is.

Christoph
(www.pulster.de)

Christoph Pulster wrote:
>>>As it says on the page, it has been superceded by this:
>>>http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=107876
>>
>>Yes, but that runs a crap O/S.
>
>
> We are talking about the new Netbook PRO from Psion Teklogix, running a
> CE.Net system from Microsoft.
>
> There are some boot options, which I described this morning in
> PDAstreet:
>
> Please remove the accu cell and backup batteries. Wait 1 Minute. Insert
> the accu cell again while holding CTRL-D and ESC. The netbook PRO boots
> up again but will stop with a boot menu:
>
> 1. run main OS
> 2. clean start main OS
> 3. begin YMODEM load
> 4. show configuration
> 5.-8. Audio/display/touch/RAM tests
> 9. erase flash file system
>
> Its a interesting starting point to dream about a different OS (Linux?)
> to load on the fantastic piece of hardware, the new netbook PRO is.

Linux has been running on the Netbook for some time now. I do like Linux
(something my headers probably give away), but EPOC32 is such a nice and
polished O/S, taylored to the kind of slick machines Psion used to
produce. Why change it for that abomination that is WinCE?

Morons...

--
the Entity Formerly Known As Jazz

Nature and Nature's laws lay hid in night:
God said, "Let Newton be!"
And all was light.
(Alexander Pope)

Does anyone have a fully working Linux setup I could copy to a CF and try
out on my netBook? I'm having problems with network settings despite having
reloaded EPOC (the currently available version).

Hope 256mb CF is enough. 32mb RAM.

I would like to have a go at using Linux on this whilst getting SuSE 9.0
loaded onto this PC.

Ta

Nick


---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.551 / Virus Database: 343 - Release Date: 11/12/2003

the Entity Formerly Known As Jazz wrote:
> Linux has been running on the Netbook for some time now. I do like Linux
> (something my headers probably give away), but EPOC32 is such a nice and
> polished O/S, taylored to the kind of slick machines Psion used to
> produce. Why change it for that abomination that is WinCE?

While financially, it was PSION that bought Texlogik (or is it Teklogix ?), it
seems that in practical terms, it was Texlogik that bought PSION. Their
windows (or CE) based products survived, by PSION's products are slowly being
phased out as they become too old.

It is a very sad day when a product originally aimed at being the only/main
competitor to Microsoft in the PDA market is converted to run the very OS it
was meant to compete against.

The one main consolation is that EPOC32 is finally taking off in the mobile
phone market, although this is no longer a "PSION" product since it has been
transformed significantly by Symbian and each mobile phone maker.

It is still unclear to me at what point PSION had decided to get out of the
PDA market. In some ways, I view the Series 5 as just a demonstration that
allowed PSION to sell EPOC32 to mobile phone companies, with PSION then
producing just one finalk generation once the work was completed (ER5).

Remember that that was a VERY LONG period of time between the 5 and 5mx (in
computer terms), and one has to wonder what happened to cause that period to
be so long, especially at a time where the mobile telcos, while already member
of Symbian, weren't actually building handsets based on EPOC32.

On 23 Dec, in article <8-PS3Kd5LuB@cpu.pulster.de>
Christoph@pulster.de "Christoph Pulster" wrote:

> >> As it says on the page, it has been superceded by this:
> >> http://www.expansys.com/product.asp?code=107876
> > Yes, but that runs a crap O/S.
>
> We are talking about the new Netbook PRO from Psion Teklogix, running a
> CE.Net system from Microsoft.

Q.E.D.
--
Raj Rijhwani | This is the voice of the Mysterons...
raj@rijhwani.org | ... We know that you can hear us Earthmen
http://www.rijhwani.org/raj/ | "Lieutenant Green: Launch all Angels!"

JF Mezei wrote:

[snip]

> It is a very sad day when a product originally aimed at being the only/main
> competitor to Microsoft in the PDA market is converted to run the very OS it
> was meant to compete against.

Point of order: Psion's PDAs predated Microsoft even thinking about
entering that market. Psion invented the PDA, by one reading of
history: Psion never tried to compete against MS.



The whole world's going to hell in a handbasket, so who cares?

[snip]

Rowland.
(who spent Christmas eve doing frantic plumbing. The gremlins must have
escaped again...)

--
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Quoth real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland McDonnell):
[munch]
>Point of order: Psion's PDAs predated Microsoft even thinking about
>entering that market. Psion invented the PDA, by one reading of
>history: Psion never tried to compete against MS.

Yes -- but that's a point of information, not a point of order.

>The whole world's going to hell in a handbasket, so who cares?

Possibly so. I'm actually pondering a P900 or whatever model the series
is up to when my 5mx expires, but hopefully that won't be for a little
while yet.

Might even be tempted over to the Zaurus if that keyboard gets a bit
better...
--
__________________________________________________ __

~~ Paul Gilham ~~
__________________________________________________ __

Rowland McDonnell wrote:
> Point of order: Psion's PDAs predated Microsoft even thinking about
> entering that market. Psion invented the PDA, by one reading of
> history: Psion never tried to compete against MS.

I suggest you go back to the archives of this very group. PSION was under a
lot of pressure to release a product that would compete against the then brand
new Windows CE that MS was saying would have a billion features. People were
clamouring for colour screens and built-in modems etc.

Turned out that Windows CE was a total dud. But back then, there were fears
that Microsoft would instantly corner the market.

Whether PSION released the unfinished Series 5 (or in politically correct
terms, had to prioritise and compromise on features to meet the deadline) to
counter Microsoft's threath, or to get started on offloading EPOC32 to the
moble phone companies (with the 5 being a demo of what it could do) I am not sure.

But before the release of the 5, there was a lot pressure for PSION to come up
with something to compete against the threath of Microsoft.

In the end, PSION pulled out prematurely and it took Microsoft much more time
to get recognized in teh PDA market.

On Sun, 28 Dec 2003 23:51:28 -0500, JF Mezei
wrote:

>Whether PSION released the unfinished Series 5 (or in politically correct
>terms, had to prioritise and compromise on features to meet the deadline) to
>counter Microsoft's threath, or to get started on offloading EPOC32 to the
>moble phone companies (with the 5 being a demo of what it could do) I am not sure.

What you seem to be forgetting is that when the Series 5 came it out
it was seem as _very_ advanced and not as unfinished in any way. In
hindsight it clearly did not include features that _you_ would have
liked but this hardly made it a dud.

This is a point worth repeating to counter your repeated claims made
against the Series 5 release. The Series 5 design was widely acclaimed
and was seen as a generational leap in PDA hardware and software
design.

Of course there would be a compromise in the features included
otherwise it would never have been released at all. Technology
constantly evolves and a company has to draw a line somewhere and
release their product.

Cheers,

Steve
--
My Usenet email address is a spam trap
To email - use steve 'at' shodgson 'dot' org 'dot' uk

Steve Hodgson wrote:
> What you seem to be forgetting is that when the Series 5 came it out
> it was seem as _very_ advanced and not as unfinished in any way.

Stuff written on the box was not included with the machines shipped in June.
You had to wait for the downloads to be available.. Started off with just fax,
then you had to ditch the fax when message suite became available later on.
JAVA which had been talked about was never implemeted on the series 5. There
were plenty of functions present on the 3 but not on the 5, many of which took
years to become aavilable as OPXs.

And lets not talk about the many bugs on the initial batch (sheet math error,
power monitoring software problems etc etc etc).

At the time PSION made the promises for ROM Upgrades for series 5, it
acknowledged that the 5 had been rushed to market. The ROM upgrade never
came, but PSION argued that it provided some of the bug fixes through Message
Suite upgrades.


> against the Series 5 release. The Series 5 design was widely acclaimed
> and was seen as a generational leap in PDA hardware and software
> design.

PDA hardware perhaps. But it didn't make it that much more usable due to its
terrible screen readability. And you'll note that a large proprotion of
initial batches of Series 5 had to be exchanged, not only to provide ROM 1.01
with the most critical bug fixes, but also somwehat fixed problems of peeling
skin and stuck pen mechanisms.

You will note that once Symbian got started, it reshaped EPOC32/Symbian OS
quite a bit. Previous decisions by PSION to shift converters to Windows were
overturned and on-board converters returned. SDK was made much easier to obtain.

I would also *ASSUME* that Symbian ditched UI decisions such as the
undesirable automatic opening of the last opened document when you start an
application, the lack of exit-without-save etc, and abuse of hierarchical
menus which require more keystrokes than necessary to access often used functions.


Remember that the initial Series 5 lacked a text editor. You couldn't download
your OPL files with the COMMs application and directly open them because it
required a proprietary file format which PSION employees adamantly argued
could not possibly be documented because of the stream store philosophy.

> Of course there would be a compromise in the features included
> otherwise it would never have been released at all.

Normally, you wait until at least all the features of your previous version
have been implemented in the new one.

JF Mezei wrote:

> Rowland McDonnell wrote:
> > Point of order: Psion's PDAs predated Microsoft even thinking about
> > entering that market. Psion invented the PDA, by one reading of
> > history: Psion never tried to compete against MS.
>
> I suggest you go back to the archives of this very group.

If you can point me at the threads which give an insight into the
business plans of Psion and M$, I'd be delighted. I can't find any such
threads myself.

> PSION was under a
> lot of pressure to release a product that would compete against the then brand
> new Windows CE that MS was saying would have a billion features.

I don't see what relevance that has to the price of fish.

> People were
> clamouring for colour screens and built-in modems etc.

So what?

Psion began making PDAs a very long time before that - mid 1980s, wasn't
it? Well before even Win 3 came out and well before anyone except the
eccentric few (like me) had a personal computer. Psion wasn't competing
against *anyone* at the beginning. MS wasn't in the market at all when
Psion began designing and selling PDAs. MS wasn't in the market when
Psion brought out the Psion 3 in about 1990 (well, my Psion 3 says
copyright 1990 on it), which is a lovely little gadget and I wish my
5mx's battery lasted as well.

MS tried to compete with Psion and the rest of the PDA market with WinCE
- but when did that come out? I don't know. WinCE went nowhere, and
Psion dropped out. I don't see that there's any evidence that Psion
tried to compete at all.

And so what if people were saying things in this newsgroup? As far as I
could see, Psion decided to drop out as soon as the competition got
sticky.

You talk about `a lot of pressure' as if words in this newsgroup were at
all relevant to Psion's business plans. I think that's silly.
Commercial firms making hi-tech kit tend to ignore customer needs and
customer wishes.

[snip]

Rowland.

--
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Rowland McDonnell wrote:
> Psion began making PDAs a very long time before that - mid 1980s,

And this is not relevant because PSION abadonned all its former technologies
for the Series 5 and started from scratch. New code, new programming language,
new paradigm (such as dependance on Windows).

>This happened at a time when Microsoft was attempting to bully its way into
the PDA market.
> MS tried to compete with Psion and the rest of the PDA market with WinCE
> - but when did that come out? I don't know. WinCE went nowhere,

WinCE didn't go nowhere. It is unfortunatly very popular now. HP abandonned
their own non-wince PDAs in favour of Compaq PocketPc (aka Windows CE).
Microsoft even bullied its way into BMWs. (causing many problems such as
engines shutting down at highway speeds, seats starting to adjust themselves
while driving etc).


> could see, Psion decided to drop out as soon as the competition got
> sticky.

Two of the regular posters who were associated with PSION denied for years
that Palm was competing against PSION PDA, stating that they were in a
different market. But, at the time of the launch of the 5, the potential
competitor was seen to be Microsoft, big time. In my opinion, PSION pulled
out not very long after the launch of the Series 5, perhaps because they
feared that Microsoft couldn't be beaten. By the time they realised WINCE
would take a lot longer to become workable, they went back to the 5 and
produced th 5mx. But by then, WINCE was starting to get acceptance and when
Compaq produced its PockPC PDAs, Microsoft's offering really took off.

had PSION decided to stay in the PDA business and make EPOC32 progress much
faster, and keep its distribution agreements in north america, the story may
have been different.

> Commercial firms making hi-tech kit tend to ignore customer needs and
> customer wishes.

Those that do vanish.


When PSION failed to produce the promised ROM upgrade for Series 5 owners, I
started to prodict that PSION was pulling out of the market. I was blasted
left and right in this very newsgroup for being a naysayer, predictor of doom.
But look at how long it took for the 5mx to come out. Ask youself why PSION
got rid of many distriobution agreements less than a year after the 5 was unveiled.

Posters from the UK never beleived me because they were in a "safe" area where
PSION was still well known and PALM had not yet invaded their territory.

On Tue, 30 Dec 2003 10:07:36 +0000 (UTC),
real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:

>Psion began making PDAs a very long time before that - mid 1980s, wasn't
>it? Well before even Win 3 came out and well before anyone except the
>eccentric few (like me) had a personal computer. Psion wasn't competing
>against *anyone* at the beginning. MS wasn't in the market at all when
>Psion began designing and selling PDAs. MS wasn't in the market when
>Psion brought out the Psion 3 in about 1990 (well, my Psion 3 says
>copyright 1990 on it), which is a lovely little gadget and I wish my
>5mx's battery lasted as well.

Well, actually Microsoft had co-operated on a bunch of MS-DOS
based pocket (well, large pocket) computers around 1991-1992.
They had either embedded MS-DOS 3.3 or 5 and Lotus 123 plus a PIM
in rom. I actually have a list of a bunch of them. So in one
sense Microsoft were competing with some models of the Psion 3.
The HP 95LX came out around 1990-1991.

Earliest pocket computer I could think of was a
Panasonic hand held computer 1982 vintage, one of the earliest I
know of. Weight: 397g Size: 227 x 95 x 30mm CPU: 6502 @ 1 MHz
Display: Small LCD Keyboard: Chicklet or worse Batteries: NiCd
with backup. Memory: 2k or 4k RAM, 16k ROM, up to 4 program
capsules of 64k. Software: Calculator, file system, editor, etc.
Optional Extras: Bus expander, thermal printer, cassette
interface, colour tv interface.

--
Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
Bait for spammers: root@localhost postmaster@localhost
admin@localhost abuse@localhost postmaster@127.0.0.1

"Steve Hodgson" wrote

> JF Mezei wrote:
>
> >Whether PSION released the unfinished Series 5 (or in politically
correct
> >terms, had to prioritise and compromise on features to meet the
deadline) to
> >counter Microsoft's threath, or to get started on offloading EPOC32
to the
> >moble phone companies (with the 5 being a demo of what it could do)
I am not sure.
>
> What you seem to be forgetting is that when the Series 5 came it out
> it was seem as _very_ advanced and not as unfinished in any way. In
> hindsight it clearly did not include features that _you_ would have
> liked but this hardly made it a dud.
>
> This is a point worth repeating to counter your repeated claims made
> against the Series 5 release. The Series 5 design was widely
acclaimed
> and was seen as a generational leap in PDA hardware and software
> design.

Even today in 2004, the Psion 5 could be considered as an advanced
product, as there is no other product (other than a 5mx) that can get
anywhere near being a better replacement.

Psion Series 5s are complete personal computers - Micro$oft's and
Palm's devices are not real personal computers, but external portable
display devices for a Windows personal computer.

JF Mezei wrote in message news:<3FF24061.1ECA2DF8@istop.com>...

> When PSION failed to produce the promised ROM upgrade for Series 5 owners, I
> started to prodict that PSION was pulling out of the market. I was blasted
> left and right in this very newsgroup for being a naysayer, predictor of doom.
> But look at how long it took for the 5mx to come out. Ask youself why PSION
> got rid of many distriobution agreements less than a year after the 5 was unveiled.
>
> Posters from the UK never beleived me because they were in a "safe" area where
> PSION was still well known and PALM had not yet invaded their territory.


I've been thinking along the same lines -- and I have concluded that
Psion were too focused on making profits, and not focused enough on
making handhelds the company and customers would love. Having
dedicated employees make great products leads to profits; the reverse
will not work, at least not for long.

I think the delayed ROMs and Series 5mx of which you speak, and their
quick pullout, shows this. And the disappearance of many programs and
documentation pages from the web, shows me that Psion and a large part
of the pre-pullout community was composed of gold-diggers and
techno-fashion wannabees.

I concede that Psion's pullout was very timely considering the PDA
market collapsed in the year or two after their pullout, plus PocketPC
was getting more refined and PalmOS more advanced.

But I still believe a more committed company could have kept enough
employees, distribution and capital to make the Bluetooth Revo viable,
and perhaps even colour Symbian versions of the Series5 and Netbook as
well. The Bluetooth Revo was ready to be brought to market.

This is all speculation, but part of my point is that commitment,
belief in your products, and a love of your products, are a business
asset and perhaps even a requirement for long-term survival of a
company.

Erik Sandblom

Eric Lindsay's spam trap wrote:

> real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland McDonnell) wrote:
>
> >Psion began making PDAs a very long time before that - mid 1980s, wasn't
> >it? Well before even Win 3 came out and well before anyone except the
> >eccentric few (like me) had a personal computer. Psion wasn't competing
> >against *anyone* at the beginning. MS wasn't in the market at all when
> >Psion began designing and selling PDAs. MS wasn't in the market when
> >Psion brought out the Psion 3 in about 1990 (well, my Psion 3 says
> >copyright 1990 on it), which is a lovely little gadget and I wish my
> >5mx's battery lasted as well.
>
> Well, actually Microsoft had co-operated on a bunch of MS-DOS
> based pocket (well, large pocket) computers around 1991-1992.

QED.

> They had either embedded MS-DOS 3.3 or 5 and Lotus 123 plus a PIM
> in rom. I actually have a list of a bunch of them. So in one
> sense Microsoft were competing with some models of the Psion 3.

Er, yes? But you could hardly call MS-DOS competition to SIBO (izzat
the Psion 3 OS?), and in any case: my point was that when the Psion 3
*was launched*, MS wasn't in the market. I didn't say MS didn't enter
the market after the Psion 3 was launched. I knew very well that MS
entered the market after the Psion 3 had been launched. I didn't know
about these awful MS-DOS machines, mind.

[snip]

> Earliest pocket computer I could think of was a
> Panasonic hand held computer 1982 vintage, one of the earliest I
> know of. Weight: 397g Size: 227 x 95 x 30mm CPU:

That's not pocket sized. That's nearly 9 inches long. What sort of
pockets have you got? Somewhat larger overall than a ZX81 (a desktop
machine[1]), I suspect (can't be bothered to check: mine's in the loft.
Okay, so ZX81s don't have built-in screens or batteries and hardly even
have keyboards).

(I'd say the Psion 5 is about as big and heavy as you can get and still
count as `pocket sized' - but only just).

> 6502 @ 1 MHz
> Display: Small LCD Keyboard:

Minor typing error, I assume?

> Chicklet or worse Batteries:

Chicklet batteries? What's chicklet mean in any case? I've never met
the word before and it's not in the Concise Oxford 8th edition. I tried
Googling but didn't come up with a definition, just lots of usage which
all seemed to be talking about keyboards and didn't help me get to grips
with what `chicklet' means.

> NiCd
> with backup. Memory: 2k or 4k RAM, 16k ROM, up to 4 program
> capsules of 64k. Software: Calculator, file system, editor, etc.
> Optional Extras: Bus expander, thermal printer, cassette
> interface, colour tv interface.

Sounds like a low grade early 80s home microcomputer crammed into a
small case with batteries rather than mains power (and hence fitted with
low powered and therefore slow ICs). I think I met something similar by
Epson (Z80 powered with CP/M) and I wasn't impressed. From memory,
there haven't been any consumer microcomputer architectures (note v.
careful qualification there) from Japan that were worth looking at.

I seem to recall a fair few low powered portable computers with dreadful
little LCD displays from the early to mid 1980s, and I also recall that
they were all pointless junk, none of them counted as pocket sized, and
none had software to allow them to be used in any way as effective
personal organizers. But would you trust my 20 year old memories?

Rowland.

[1] Yes, I know, but they *are* desktop computers even if you can strap
'em on top of a Meccano built turtle robot run off a 12V sealed gel lead
acid accumulator it carries around with it. A shame I never got it to
turn left reliably. I was only 14(ish); didn't know enough about
electronics to deal with the interface card problems.

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On the 3 Jan 2004, real-address-in-sig@flur.bltigibbet (Rowland
McDonnell) wrote:



> But I have a need for 'net access and typesetting and suchlike.
> What choice do I have?

How about a RISC OS machine?

--
Graham Thurlwell.
Jades' First Encounters Site.
http://www.jades.org/ffe.htm
The best Frontier: First Encounters site on the Web.