expansys: excessive credit card paranoia? - Scion

This is a discussion on expansys: excessive credit card paranoia? - Scion ; Finally, after several years of resisting temptation and drooling, I decided to order myself a netbook, before they become completely extinct. I ordered one on-line from Expansys. Shortly after placing the order, I got an email saying that they wanted ...

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Thread: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

  1. expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    Finally, after several years of resisting temptation and drooling, I
    decided to order myself a netbook, before they become completely
    extinct. I ordered one on-line from Expansys. Shortly after placing
    the order, I got an email saying that they wanted a credit card
    statement and a photocopy of the card faxed to them. I phoned up
    this morning to tell them that I don't have a fax machine, or access
    to one (I work from home). The crotchety person at Expansys was
    adamant: no fax, no sale. So I ordered one from Clove, and cancelled
    the order with Expansys.

    If I were trying to place an order with the delivery address different
    from the card's billing address or something, I could understand this,
    but I'm at a loss to understand the problem in this case. In addition,
    I can't see what the details of my credit card statement have got to
    do with Expansys. I got the impression from the person I spoke to at
    Clove that they'd had quite a few instances like this recently.

    Has anybody else had similar experiences with Expansys? I can't help
    thinking they're likely to lose a few more customers this way.

    James


  2. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:13:06 +0000, James Lothian
    wrote:

    >Has anybody else had similar experiences with Expansys? I can't help
    >thinking they're likely to lose a few more customers this way.


    Had the same experience about one year ago, I wanted to order some
    stuff, don't remember what exactly, around 20 or something.
    I was in the same situation as you, working from home, no fax, etc.
    Shortly after I received back a similar email as you received, full of
    stringent rules as to what to fax them and when etc. Needless to say,
    I told them to forget it and went to shop elsewhere...
    As long as they keep this crap, they won't have my business.

  3. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    They are a pain to order from, that's why I buy elsewhere.

    Richard

    "James Lothian" wrote in message
    news:3FD06842.C6CD8C53@jameslothian.freeserve.co.u k...
    > Finally, after several years of resisting temptation and drooling, I
    > decided to order myself a netbook, before they become completely
    > extinct. I ordered one on-line from Expansys. Shortly after placing
    > the order, I got an email saying that they wanted a credit card
    > statement and a photocopy of the card faxed to them. I phoned up
    > this morning to tell them that I don't have a fax machine, or access
    > to one (I work from home). The crotchety person at Expansys was
    > adamant: no fax, no sale. So I ordered one from Clove, and cancelled
    > the order with Expansys.
    >
    > If I were trying to place an order with the delivery address different
    > from the card's billing address or something, I could understand this,
    > but I'm at a loss to understand the problem in this case. In addition,
    > I can't see what the details of my credit card statement have got to
    > do with Expansys. I got the impression from the person I spoke to at
    > Clove that they'd had quite a few instances like this recently.
    >
    > Has anybody else had similar experiences with Expansys? I can't help
    > thinking they're likely to lose a few more customers this way.
    >
    > James
    >




  4. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    If they have been subject to credit card fraud then it is understandable.
    Remember they aren't a really big business, and each theft will put up there
    costs and ultimately the price to us customers. No Psion owner would want to
    see the demise of any business that still supports a (nearly dead) format.

    And before you moan at me- I get inconvenienced too- no one at home all day
    either.

    You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    just need to install your modems fax software.
    Some links show you can use fax with broadband- I don't have broadband so
    haven't looked at the possibilities. There is also the possibility of
    getting faxes diverted to email. There used to be free services, I don't
    know if any services are free now but a *quick* search brought up a few
    links with this service. efax.co.uk offer free for the first 14 days- it may
    not be ethical but that is long enough? And there are cheaper subscriptions.

    At the end of the day it is their business, this 'security' feature was
    instigated for a reason, and the fact that they continue to rely on it shows
    that it works for them. I'd rather have a company there that still supports
    Psion- no matter how 'awkward' it may be to some customers- than no company
    there at all. You may feel differently.



    "James Lothian" wrote in message
    news:3FD06842.C6CD8C53@jameslothian.freeserve.co.u k...
    > Finally, after several years of resisting temptation and drooling, I
    > decided to order myself a netbook, before they become completely
    > extinct. I ordered one on-line from Expansys. Shortly after placing
    > the order, I got an email saying that they wanted a credit card
    > statement and a photocopy of the card faxed to them. I phoned up
    > this morning to tell them that I don't have a fax machine, or access
    > to one (I work from home). The crotchety person at Expansys was
    > adamant: no fax, no sale. So I ordered one from Clove, and cancelled
    > the order with Expansys.
    >
    > If I were trying to place an order with the delivery address different
    > from the card's billing address or something, I could understand this,
    > but I'm at a loss to understand the problem in this case. In addition,
    > I can't see what the details of my credit card statement have got to
    > do with Expansys. I got the impression from the person I spoke to at
    > Clove that they'd had quite a few instances like this recently.
    >
    > Has anybody else had similar experiences with Expansys? I can't help
    > thinking they're likely to lose a few more customers this way.
    >
    > James
    >




  5. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    AlanS wrote:
    >
    > If they have been subject to credit card fraud then it is understandable.
    > Remember they aren't a really big business, and each theft will put up there
    > costs and ultimately the price to us customers. No Psion owner would want to
    > see the demise of any business that still supports a (nearly dead) format.
    >
    > And before you moan at me- I get inconvenienced too- no one at home all day
    > either.
    >
    > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    > just need to install your modems fax software.


    And buy a scanner, of course, with which to scan my visa statement and
    visa card.

    James

  6. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:09:30 -0000, "AlanS"
    wrote:

    -You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    -just need to install your modems fax software.

    You misunderstand the OP. He was asked to fax a copy of his credit card and
    statement TO Expansys. Just having fax software would only enable him to
    receive. You're assuming he has a scanner too - and from his post it's obvious
    he hasn't.

    Personally speaking I'm with James on this - if they make you jump through
    unreasonable hoops to get a bit of business then they can't be very well
    managed. It's not as if he's applying for a mortgage here.

    Anyway my guess is that we'll all be using ebay in a couple of years to buy
    redundant Psions as they won't be sold anywhere......


    -Rob
    robatwork at mail dot com

  7. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?


    "James Lothian" wrote in message
    news:3FD08E15.A7F4815C@simul8.demon.co.uk...
    > AlanS wrote:
    > >
    > > If they have been subject to credit card fraud then it is

    understandable.
    > > Remember they aren't a really big business, and each theft will put up

    there
    > > costs and ultimately the price to us customers. No Psion owner would

    want to
    > > see the demise of any business that still supports a (nearly dead)

    format.
    > >
    > > And before you moan at me- I get inconvenienced too- no one at home all

    day
    > > either.
    > >
    > > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up

    you
    > > just need to install your modems fax software.

    >
    > And buy a scanner, of course, with which to scan my visa statement and
    > visa card.
    >
    > James


    With fax software installed you can create a document (in Word for example)
    and print to fax. You don't need a scanner this way.



  8. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?


    "Rob S" wrote in message
    news:3fd29403.19062670@news.nildram.co.uk...
    > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:09:30 -0000, "AlanS"


    > wrote:
    >
    > -You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up

    you
    > -just need to install your modems fax software.
    >
    > You misunderstand the OP. He was asked to fax a copy of his credit card

    and
    > statement TO Expansys. Just having fax software would only enable him to
    > receive. You're assuming he has a scanner too - and from his post it's

    obvious
    > he hasn't.
    >
    > Personally speaking I'm with James on this - if they make you jump through
    > unreasonable hoops to get a bit of business then they can't be very well
    > managed. It's not as if he's applying for a mortgage here.
    >
    > Anyway my guess is that we'll all be using ebay in a couple of years to

    buy
    > redundant Psions as they won't be sold anywhere......
    >
    >
    > -Rob
    > robatwork at mail dot com


    As part of the post I said:
    You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    just need to install your modems fax software.

    This lets me fax out.



  9. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    AlanS wrote:
    >
    > "James Lothian" wrote in message
    > news:3FD08E15.A7F4815C@simul8.demon.co.uk...
    > > AlanS wrote:
    > > >
    > > > If they have been subject to credit card fraud then it is

    > understandable.
    > > > Remember they aren't a really big business, and each theft will put up

    > there
    > > > costs and ultimately the price to us customers. No Psion owner would

    > want to
    > > > see the demise of any business that still supports a (nearly dead)

    > format.
    > > >
    > > > And before you moan at me- I get inconvenienced too- no one at home all

    > day
    > > > either.
    > > >
    > > > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up

    > you
    > > > just need to install your modems fax software.

    > >
    > > And buy a scanner, of course, with which to scan my visa statement and
    > > visa card.
    > >
    > > James

    >
    > With fax software installed you can create a document (in Word for example)
    > and print to fax. You don't need a scanner this way.


    But they want my visa statement, which is a piece of paper! It's not a
    file
    on the machine.

    James

  10. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    AlanS wrote:
    >
    > "Rob S" wrote in message
    > news:3fd29403.19062670@news.nildram.co.uk...
    > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:09:30 -0000, "AlanS"

    >
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > -You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up

    > you
    > > -just need to install your modems fax software.
    > >
    > > You misunderstand the OP. He was asked to fax a copy of his credit card

    > and
    > > statement TO Expansys. Just having fax software would only enable him to
    > > receive. You're assuming he has a scanner too - and from his post it's

    > obvious
    > > he hasn't.
    > >
    > > Personally speaking I'm with James on this - if they make you jump through
    > > unreasonable hoops to get a bit of business then they can't be very well
    > > managed. It's not as if he's applying for a mortgage here.
    > >
    > > Anyway my guess is that we'll all be using ebay in a couple of years to

    > buy
    > > redundant Psions as they won't be sold anywhere......
    > >
    > >
    > > -Rob
    > > robatwork at mail dot com

    >
    > As part of the post I said:
    > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    > just need to install your modems fax software.
    >
    > This lets me fax out.


    But if you want to fax *an existing piece of paper*, you need a scanner.
    No?

    James

  11. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?


    "James Lothian" wrote in message
    news:3FD09A3E.BADD6EF7@jameslothian.freeserve.co.u k...
    > AlanS wrote:
    > >
    > > "Rob S" wrote in message
    > > news:3fd29403.19062670@news.nildram.co.uk...
    > > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:09:30 -0000, "AlanS"

    > >
    > > > wrote:
    > > >
    > > > -You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial

    up
    > > you
    > > > -just need to install your modems fax software.
    > > >
    > > > You misunderstand the OP. He was asked to fax a copy of his credit

    card
    > > and
    > > > statement TO Expansys. Just having fax software would only enable him

    to
    > > > receive. You're assuming he has a scanner too - and from his post it's

    > > obvious
    > > > he hasn't.
    > > >
    > > > Personally speaking I'm with James on this - if they make you jump

    through
    > > > unreasonable hoops to get a bit of business then they can't be very

    well
    > > > managed. It's not as if he's applying for a mortgage here.
    > > >
    > > > Anyway my guess is that we'll all be using ebay in a couple of years

    to
    > > buy
    > > > redundant Psions as they won't be sold anywhere......
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > -Rob
    > > > robatwork at mail dot com

    > >
    > > As part of the post I said:
    > > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up

    you
    > > just need to install your modems fax software.
    > >
    > > This lets me fax out.

    >
    > But if you want to fax *an existing piece of paper*, you need a scanner.
    > No?
    >
    > James


    yep. no friends? ;o)




  12. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    Alan follow this.... Expansys need to see a copy (picture) of credit card
    and statement to prove you own the credit card. How would you get them a
    faxed photo copy of your actual credit card without a scanner? I guess it is
    possible with a digital camera?

    Richard

    "AlanS" wrote in message
    news:bqq52f$f4e$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
    >
    > "Rob S" wrote in message
    > news:3fd29403.19062670@news.nildram.co.uk...
    > > On Fri, 5 Dec 2003 14:09:30 -0000, "AlanS"

    >
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > > -You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up

    > you
    > > -just need to install your modems fax software.
    > >
    > > You misunderstand the OP. He was asked to fax a copy of his credit card

    > and
    > > statement TO Expansys. Just having fax software would only enable him to
    > > receive. You're assuming he has a scanner too - and from his post it's

    > obvious
    > > he hasn't.
    > >
    > > Personally speaking I'm with James on this - if they make you jump

    through
    > > unreasonable hoops to get a bit of business then they can't be very well
    > > managed. It's not as if he's applying for a mortgage here.
    > >
    > > Anyway my guess is that we'll all be using ebay in a couple of years to

    > buy
    > > redundant Psions as they won't be sold anywhere......
    > >
    > >
    > > -Rob
    > > robatwork at mail dot com

    >
    > As part of the post I said:
    > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    > just need to install your modems fax software.
    >
    > This lets me fax out.
    >
    >




  13. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    It's only understandable if the delivery address is different to the
    cardholder address - and delivering to a different address is technically
    normally in breach of their card service agreements. The cardholder address
    is verified by the online store as the correct one for the card account, so
    delivering to that address requires no more checks, even if they have
    suffered from cc fraud.

    "AlanS" wrote in message
    news:bqq3o2$e8s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
    > If they have been subject to credit card fraud then it is understandable.
    > Remember they aren't a really big business, and each theft will put up

    there
    > costs and ultimately the price to us customers. No Psion owner would want

    to
    > see the demise of any business that still supports a (nearly dead) format.
    >
    > And before you moan at me- I get inconvenienced too- no one at home all

    day
    > either.
    >
    > You have a computer? You have an internet connection? If it is dial up you
    > just need to install your modems fax software.
    > Some links show you can use fax with broadband- I don't have broadband so
    > haven't looked at the possibilities. There is also the possibility of
    > getting faxes diverted to email. There used to be free services, I don't
    > know if any services are free now but a *quick* search brought up a few
    > links with this service. efax.co.uk offer free for the first 14 days- it

    may
    > not be ethical but that is long enough? And there are cheaper

    subscriptions.
    >
    > At the end of the day it is their business, this 'security' feature was
    > instigated for a reason, and the fact that they continue to rely on it

    shows
    > that it works for them. I'd rather have a company there that still

    supports
    > Psion- no matter how 'awkward' it may be to some customers- than no

    company
    > there at all. You may feel differently.
    >
    >
    >
    > "James Lothian" wrote in message
    > news:3FD06842.C6CD8C53@jameslothian.freeserve.co.u k...
    > > Finally, after several years of resisting temptation and drooling, I
    > > decided to order myself a netbook, before they become completely
    > > extinct. I ordered one on-line from Expansys. Shortly after placing
    > > the order, I got an email saying that they wanted a credit card
    > > statement and a photocopy of the card faxed to them. I phoned up
    > > this morning to tell them that I don't have a fax machine, or access
    > > to one (I work from home). The crotchety person at Expansys was
    > > adamant: no fax, no sale. So I ordered one from Clove, and cancelled
    > > the order with Expansys.
    > >
    > > If I were trying to place an order with the delivery address different
    > > from the card's billing address or something, I could understand this,
    > > but I'm at a loss to understand the problem in this case. In addition,
    > > I can't see what the details of my credit card statement have got to
    > > do with Expansys. I got the impression from the person I spoke to at
    > > Clove that they'd had quite a few instances like this recently.
    > >
    > > Has anybody else had similar experiences with Expansys? I can't help
    > > thinking they're likely to lose a few more customers this way.
    > >
    > > James
    > >

    >
    >




  14. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    In article <3fd29403.19062670@news.nildram.co.uk>, Rob S
    wrote:
    > You misunderstand the OP. He was asked to fax a copy of his credit card
    > and statement TO Expansys. Just having fax software would only enable
    > him to receive. You're assuming he has a scanner too - and from his post
    > it's obvious he hasn't.


    > Personally speaking I'm with James on this - if they make you jump
    > through unreasonable hoops to get a bit of business then they can't be
    > very well managed. It's not as if he's applying for a mortgage here.


    I'm with him as well. Although there is nothing on my credit card statement
    of which I am ashamed, nobody else is **entitled** to see it. I'm not sure
    what use they can make of it, either.

    --
    __ __ __ __ __ ___ _____________________________________________
    |__||__)/ __/ \|\ ||_ | / Acorn StrongArm Risc_PC
    | || \\__/\__/| \||__ | /...Internet access for all Acorn RISC machines
    ___________________________/ dhwild@argonet.co.uk

  15. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    On Friday, in article
    alan@*remove*.mrals.fsnet.co.uk "AlanS" wrote:

    > With fax software installed you can create a document (in Word for example)
    > and print to fax. You don't need a scanner this way.


    And you get the image of your credit card and another of a statement to
    embed in the word document from where, exactly?
    --
    Raj Rijhwani | This is the voice of the Mysterons...
    raj@rijhwani.org | ... We know that you can hear us Earthmen
    http://www.rijhwani.org/raj/ | "Lieutenant Green: Launch all Angels!"

  16. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:13:06 +0000, James Lothian
    wrote:

    >The crotchety person at Expansys was
    >adamant: no fax, no sale.


    To get permission from a credit card company to deal over the
    internet you have to jump through a lot of hoops. This is
    especially the case compared with actually gertting physical
    credit card access, or even a mailed or faxed copy. Small
    businesses generally can't manage it (and end up using some third
    party credit card facility).

    My guess is that Expansys got shafted by some credit card crooks
    sometime. As a result, got told by their credit card provider
    that they had to get a written order from then on. I kind of
    doubt this is Expansys's idea, as they know very well they lose
    sales.

    --
    Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
    Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
    Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
    Bait for spammers: root@localhost postmaster@localhost
    admin@localhost abuse@localhost postmaster@127.0.0.1

  17. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:54:35 +0000 (GMT), raj@rijhwani.org (Raj
    Rijhwani) wrote:

    >> With fax software installed you can create a document (in Word for example)
    >> and print to fax. You don't need a scanner this way.

    >
    >And you get the image of your credit card and another of a statement to
    >embed in the word document from where, exactly?


    Digital camera? Photo of the credit card and statement. Fax the
    converted jpg? What you can manage depends on what gear you have
    on hand. However we have found it worthwhile to actually save
    TIFF or JPG images of some typical identification type material,
    such as credit cards and drivers licence on a computer. Every
    now and then someone wants a "faxed" or emailed copy, and it is
    easier to keep it on hand than scan it again. Typical use,
    buying cheap airline tickets available only over the internet.

    If in the original poster's situation, I'd consider getting a
    camera store or computer store to actually scan a credit card and
    licence, and keep a copy on a home computer (either hide or
    encrypt the file however unless your computer is secure).

    --
    Eric Lindsay http://www.ericlindsay.com/guff
    Airlie Beach Qld Australia - Great Barrier Reef entry
    Psion & Epoc site http://www.ericlindsay.com/epoc
    Bait for spammers: root@localhost postmaster@localhost
    admin@localhost abuse@localhost postmaster@127.0.0.1

  18. expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    nov2003@ericlindsayINVALID.comDOMAIN (Eric Lindsay's spam trap) wrote in message news:<3fd16c1c.33750755@news.bigpond.com>...
    > On Fri, 05 Dec 2003 11:13:06 +0000, James Lothian
    > wrote:
    >
    > >The crotchety person at Expansys was
    > >adamant: no fax, no sale.

    >
    > To get permission from a credit card company to deal over the
    > internet you have to jump through a lot of hoops. This is
    > especially the case compared with actually gertting physical
    > credit card access, or even a mailed or faxed copy. Small
    > businesses generally can't manage it (and end up using some third
    > party credit card facility).
    >
    > My guess is that Expansys got shafted by some credit card crooks
    > sometime. As a result, got told by their credit card provider
    > that they had to get a written order from then on. I kind of
    > doubt this is Expansys's idea, as they know very well they lose
    > sales.


    Perhaps this is better in another newsgroup? But, to add my
    three-bits worth: I thought the 3 (or 4 if Amex) digit ID (typed not
    embossed) on cards was instituted for phone and internet transactions
    to get around all these hoops? Someone faxing a copy of my Statement
    could have just stolen it from my letterbox. A fax copy of the card
    can be bodgied very easily as faxes aren't clear at all. The
    three-digit ID proves whoever is ordering has the card in their
    possession. If legally that is okay. If illegally and the cardholder
    has reported it stolen or the transaction is within the allowance the
    bank allows you before reporting it stolen, then it is the bank's
    problem not the merchant's.

    Bottom line: I agree with those who take their business elsewhere if
    the hurdles seem unnecessary or difficult. There are plenty of
    businesses out there that are more consumer-friendly. Maybe email
    expansys mgt and tell them why you shopped elsewhere and maybe they'll
    ease up on their system in the future if they come to realise just how
    much business they are losing.

  19. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    On Saturday, in article <3fd16d83.34109970@news.bigpond.com>
    nov2003@ericlindsayINVALID.comDOMAIN
    "Eric Lindsay's spam trap" wrote:

    > On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:54:35 +0000 (GMT), raj@rijhwani.org (Raj
    > Rijhwani) wrote:
    >
    > >> With fax software installed you can create a document (in Word for example)
    > >> and print to fax. You don't need a scanner this way.

    > >
    > >And you get the image of your credit card and another of a statement to
    > >embed in the word document from where, exactly?

    >
    > Digital camera? Photo of the credit card and statement. Fax the
    > converted jpg? What you can manage depends on what gear you have
    > on hand.


    Fair comment. It is, nonetheless, a huge assumption on the part of
    Expansys that everyone who wishes to purchase their wares has the means - or
    the time to fiddle - to fulfill their requirement, in whatever form.

    Like you, I suspect some higher bureacracy at work.
    --
    Raj Rijhwani | This is the voice of the Mysterons...
    raj@rijhwani.org | ... We know that you can hear us Earthmen
    http://www.rijhwani.org/raj/ | "Lieutenant Green: Launch all Angels!"

  20. Re: expansys: excessive credit card paranoia?

    raj@rijhwani.org (Raj Rijhwani) writes:

    >On Saturday, in article <3fd16d83.34109970@news.bigpond.com>
    > nov2003@ericlindsayINVALID.comDOMAIN
    > "Eric Lindsay's spam trap" wrote:
    >> On Sat, 06 Dec 2003 01:54:35 +0000 (GMT), raj@rijhwani.org (Raj
    >> Rijhwani) wrote:


    >> >> With fax software installed you can create a document (in Word
    >> >> for example) and print to fax. You don't need a scanner this
    >> >> way.


    >> >And you get the image of your credit card and another of a statement to
    >> >embed in the word document from where, exactly?

    >>
    >> Digital camera? Photo of the credit card and statement. Fax the
    >> converted jpg? What you can manage depends on what gear you have
    >> on hand.


    >Fair comment. It is, nonetheless, a huge assumption on the part of
    >Expansys that everyone who wishes to purchase their wares has the
    >means - or the time to fiddle - to fulfill their requirement, in
    >whatever form.


    >Like you, I suspect some higher bureacracy at work.


    Everybody has a photocopier and fax machine, don't they?
    Good way of cutting down on those pesky customers. :-)

    I've found that other places will accept a scan/digital photo by
    email. They *know* and understand that what is faxed has the same
    level of integrity; the piece of paper they get from their fax
    machine magically gives it legal status; so I email them and suggest
    that they print it as their printer also has the same magical
    properties of invoking legal status. :-)
    --
    /"\ Bernd Felsche - Innovative Reckoning, Perth, Western Australia
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    X against HTML mail | Copy me into your ~/.signature
    / \ and postings | to help me spread!

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