Pascal/Delphi Kermit

Hello all,

I am looking for implementing the Kermit protocol into an application.
(I am a one-man company and doing special contract software in the
auto-id market)

Currently, our customer uses a registered version of Kermit-95
but is not completely happy with it as it uses a flock of features
he never will need and his point and click dudes have difficulties
with the commandline interface.- So he is asking for something simple,
included into some custom specific application.

When searching the net I found the QKKermit 3.0 (Ported from CP/M);
Finally I realized that this also can be found in the Culumbia
University ftp site.

QUESTION: What problems will arise if I implement an 'bread and
butter' version
in Pascal/Delphi and would like to include this into one of the
following?:
1) a commercial closed source application
2) a GNU open source application

The Kermit-95, C-Kermit are non opensource products of the Kermit
project,
which need licenses for non-personal use. What about QKermit and other
pascal
sources to be included into own libraries?
Might a 'clean room approach' (based on the protocol description only)
be
an alternate way to avoid copyright conflicts?
Is there any license model for the above situation(kermit
implementation in commercial applications)? How did all the builders
of communications packages handle this issue?

Best Regards,

ckranich

On 2004-11-22, ckranich <lieben_sie_brahms@yahoo.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> I am looking for implementing the Kermit protocol into an application.
> (I am a one-man company and doing special contract software in the
> auto-id market)
>
> Currently, our customer uses a registered version of Kermit-95
> but is not completely happy with it as it uses a flock of features
> he never will need and his point and click dudes have difficulties
> with the commandline interface.- So he is asking for something simple,
> included into some custom specific application.
>[/color]
I'd suggest you take a look at this:

[url]http://www.columbia.edu/kermit/ek.html[/url]
[color=blue]
> When searching the net I found the QKKermit 3.0 (Ported from CP/M);
> Finally I realized that this also can be found in the Culumbia
> University ftp site.
>[/color]
This is ancient, nobody has even mentioned it in 16 years, and it
definitely does not have any of the protocol improvements from all those
years.
[color=blue]
> QUESTION: What problems will arise if I implement an 'bread and
> butter' version in Pascal/Delphi and would like to include this into one
> of the following?:
> 1) a commercial closed source application
> 2) a GNU open source application
>
> The Kermit-95, C-Kermit are non opensource products of the Kermit project,
> which need licenses for non-personal use. What about QKermit and other
> pascal sources to be included into own libraries?
>[/color]
Whatever their copyright says.
[color=blue]
> Might a 'clean room approach' (based on the protocol description only) be
> an alternate way to avoid copyright conflicts? Is there any license model
> for the above situation(kermit implementation in commercial applications)?
> How did all the builders of communications packages handle this issue?
>[/color]
They use E-Kermit.

- Frank

Hello Frank,

Thank you for your fast response.

OK, then I have two possibilities:
(As E-Kermit is written in 'C' and I prefer oldfashioned Pascal...)

1) Use Kermit-95 (licensed to every customer) and using the
Commandline /Script interface to remote control it from my
application. As I understand this would
be a 100% Kermit Project philosophy compliant way.

2) Embed part of the QKermit 3.1 Code into my application (according
to the copyrights mentioned in that code). I am aware that this would
be a 'dust of the past centuries' solution, but a wise man sometimes
stated: "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler!" - So I have
to find out if this is _really_ simpler than variant #1. However even
in this variant I would like to contribute something to the Kermit
project (For example a one time fee somehow scaled to the very small
business I am doing) Eventually feeding the Delphi ported code back to
the project would be an option(so that other pascal addicts might find
it when searching desperately after a pascal kermit; However I am
aware that this code will probably not be maintained by anybody else
than me and at best stay in the 'retrolook' museum corner...)

Best Regards,

Christian

On 2004-11-23, ckranich <lieben_sie_brahms@yahoo.com> wrote:[color=blue]
> OK, then I have two possibilities:
> (As E-Kermit is written in 'C' and I prefer oldfashioned Pascal...)
>[/color]
I agree that C is a comedown from some of the better-designed languages
of the past, but we're stuck with it. At least 90% of all applications
are written in some form of C.
[color=blue]
> 1) Use Kermit-95 (licensed to every customer) and using the
> Commandline /Script interface to remote control it from my
> application. As I understand this would
> be a 100% Kermit Project philosophy compliant way.
>[/color]
This is the easiest and most powerful solution because you get the most
capabilities and the the most support, without having to write any code
to duplicate what K95 already does.
[color=blue]
> 2) Embed part of the QKermit 3.1 Code into my application (according
> to the copyrights mentioned in that code). I am aware that this would
> be a 'dust of the past centuries' solution, but a wise man sometimes
> stated: "Make it as simple as possible, but not simpler!" - So I have
> to find out if this is _really_ simpler than variant #1.
>[/color]
As noted, QKermit has not been used by anybody, as far as I know, in
well over a decade. That's because more modern versions simply work
better. I doubt, for example, whether QKermit has any of the performance
extensions (long packets, sliding windows), etc, in which case your product
would be so unpleasant to use that nobody would like it.
[color=blue]
> However even
> in this variant I would like to contribute something to the Kermit
> project (For example a one time fee somehow scaled to the very small
> business I am doing) Eventually feeding the Delphi ported code back to
> the project would be an option(so that other pascal addicts might find
> it when searching desperately after a pascal kermit; However I am
> aware that this code will probably not be maintained by anybody else
> than me and at best stay in the 'retrolook' museum corner...)
>[/color]
Actually if you look at our versions list, you'll see that Pascal was a
very popular language for Kermit implementations in the 1980s, and then
pretty much disappeared from the scene after that:

Prefix, Operating Program Program Released
Tape Machine System Language Version yy/mm/dd Contributor
HP9 C HP-98xx UCSD p-Sys HP Pascal - 19840120 Rutgers U
ND D ND-10/100/500 SintranIII ND-Pascal 3.1b 19850624 Norwegian I.T.
UN D Sperry 1100 Exec NOSC Pascal 2.0 19841008 U of Maryland
UCP C (various Pecan) UCSD p-Sys Pascal 1.1 19900805 R.T. Coslet
APO C Apollo Aegis Pascal 2.9 19890507 Marconi Space
UCP C Atari MEGA ST2 UCSD p-Sys Pascal 1.1 19900805 R.T. Coslet
HCP D Honeywell DPS8 CP-6 Pascal - 19850404 Bucknell U
HCP D Honeywell DPS90 CP-6 Pascal - 19850404 Bucknell U
MTS D IBM 370 Series MTS Pascal 1.0 19840106 U of Michigan
CS9 C IBM CS9000 CSOS Pascal - 19920910 U of Wisconsin
PQK C ICL/Perq Perq OS Pascal 2.0 19841204 U of NSW
UCM C PascalMicroengin UCSD p-Sys Pascal III.0 19841203 UCI-ICSD
TI9 D TI 990 DX10 Pascal 1.0 19870710 Johnson Control
H8 D Harris 800 VOS Pascal,Asm - 19850211 U Wisconsin
TS2 B IBM 370 Series MVS/TSO Pascal/VS,.. 2.3 19871001 U of Bern,Switz

- Frank

ckranich wrote:
[color=blue]
> Hello Frank,
>
> Thank you for your fast response.
>
> OK, then I have two possibilities:
> (As E-Kermit is written in 'C' and I prefer oldfashioned Pascal...)[/color]

I suggest that you build E-Kermit as a library and then link
the library into your Pascal application. Any modern compiler will
allow you to import symbols from libraries. If it cannot, then the
compiler cannot be used for very much.

Jeffrey Altman
Secure Endpoints Inc.

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