my rant - Powerpc

This is a discussion on my rant - Powerpc ; Is it important that linux be incredibly difficult to install/configure/run on a mac? Installing mac os of just about any version is really a piece of cake. Installing Libranet on a wintel box is all frosting and comes up ready ...

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  1. my rant

    Is it important that linux be incredibly difficult to
    install/configure/run on a mac? Installing mac os of just about any
    version is really a piece of cake. Installing Libranet on a wintel box
    is all frosting and comes up ready to work or play. Installing Debian on
    a mac is next to impossible if you want a system that will actually do
    something other than give error messages. Is there anywhere in any
    flavor/version/whatever an installer that will make a working system out
    of the box, so to speak? It seems that when you read lists such as
    these there are only problems reported. I suppose it is the nature of
    the beast but a workable system has been completely elusive to me so
    far. I am not an expert but not a total dolt when it comes to computers
    or even linux at this point. I can install debian with my eyes
    closed(almost) and it will run. Never in the 6 months or so that I have
    been playing/working with it on 2 separate machines have I gotten
    XFree86/x-windows/x-server to work at all, period. Is apple
    architecture so obscure that no one can even guess what will be there to
    work with? It seems like the universe of possibilities should be much
    more finite than the all pervasive intel/amd/ibm counterpart given that
    through much of the history of apple there has been but one manufacturer
    of computers and one maker of system software. Granted there are third
    party apps and hardware add-ons but not nearly the variety as on the
    afore-mentioned brand x. That's my rant, and I'm sticking to it.
    kk


  2. Re: my rant

    On 2005-02-22, jim bob and joe bob wrote:
    > It seems that when you read lists such as
    > these there are only problems reported.


    I've had no problem with CRUX-PPC on my iBook.

    [rest of rant with no details snipped]

    --keith


    --
    kkeller-usenet@wombat.san-francisco.ca.us
    (try just my userid to email me)
    AOLSFAQ=http://wombat.san-francisco.ca.us/cgi-bin/fom
    see X- headers for PGP signature information


  3. Re: my rant

    jim bob and joe bob writes:
    >Installing Debian on
    >a mac is next to impossible if you want a system that will actually do
    >something other than give error messages.


    I found it pretty easy to install Sarge on my iBook (1066MHz G4)[*].
    Maybe the problems you have are because you try Woody, or because your
    hardware is not well supported.

    I also have ssh access to three other Macs that run various Linux
    distributions (Yellowdog, Debian, and Gentoo-PPC64 with Debian-PPC64
    available through chroot).
    [*] Well, there was a short scare when yaboot did not work on the
    second reboot (somehow the installer had produces a yaboot.conf that
    asked for an initrd for a kernel that had none or somesuch).

    - anton
    --
    M. Anton Ertl Some things have to be seen to be believed
    anton@mips.complang.tuwien.ac.at Most things have to be believed to be seen
    http://www.complang.tuwien.ac.at/anton/home.html

  4. Re: my rant

    Anton Ertl wrote:
    > jim bob and joe bob writes:
    >
    >>Installing Debian on
    >>a mac is next to impossible if you want a system that will actually do
    >>something other than give error messages.

    >
    >
    > I found it pretty easy to install Sarge on my iBook (1066MHz G4)[*].
    > Maybe the problems you have are because you try Woody, or because your
    > hardware is not well supported.

    Maybe I should try sarge. I am trying to install on a 603e clone and a
    beige G3. I thought maybe it would be better to use an older version
    and maybe my hardware would be better supported that way. Maybe these
    two machines are completely abnormal. It seemed to me that Debian was
    probably a better distro but I cannot judge the others since I have not
    tried them. The only other linux experience I have is with Libranet
    (another Linux distro) on a Pentium box. It installed easily the first
    time I tried. If that had happened with one of my macs I would be
    willing to overlook some quirks but there seems to be only quirks and
    nothing ordinary about using x-windows/XFree86 on either of these two
    machines. I did manage to download and burn the first YDL 3.0.1 cd.
    Maybe I will try that. My thinking was that YDL is made more
    specifically for mac and might be more likely to work. Since
    downloading it I have heard of many problems with it as well. I have
    also a Ubuntu Live Cd that I was able to boot once from Bootx. It
    booted into the installer so I tried installing it on my 'experimental'
    drive. The installation turned out to be broken so no joy there either.
    In the process of doing that I had to do some research and it seemed
    like many of the suggestions involved compiling a new kernal. That
    seems a little extreme for a system that is supposed to work for a
    novice. Obviously the purpose of live cd is defeated if you have to go
    to those lengths to get it to run.
    If it were not for my experience with the pentium machine I would be
    ready to give up on linux altogether. That showed me that it really can
    be run in some useful manner. That is something I have yet to
    experience on the mac even though I have put quite a bit of time and
    effort into it. Many have helped with their suggestions but even that
    has failed to yeild results.
    I guess this has turned into another rant. Sorry. I don't mean to offend.
    I think I have broken my current install of Debian so I might just as
    well try another distro. Maybe something else will work better.
    Thanks for listening.
    kk
    >
    > I also have ssh access to three other Macs that run various Linux
    > distributions (Yellowdog, Debian, and Gentoo-PPC64 with Debian-PPC64
    > available through chroot).
    >
    >[*] Well, there was a short scare when yaboot did not work on the
    > second reboot (somehow the installer had produces a yaboot.conf that
    > asked for an initrd for a kernel that had none or somesuch).
    >
    > - anton



  5. Re: my rant

    In article <111lk4re6pum248@corp.supernews.com>,
    jim bob and joe bob wrote:

    > Is it important that linux be incredibly difficult to
    > install/configure/run on a mac? Installing mac os of just about any
    > version is really a piece of cake. Installing Libranet on a wintel box
    > is all frosting and comes up ready to work or play. Installing Debian on
    > a mac is next to impossible if you want a system that will actually do
    > something other than give error messages.


    Then don't use Debian. Simple. I've installed YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake
    (9.1, not the recent 10.x versions) on my old iMac (G3) without a
    problem. Non-powerpc processors seems to be less supported by these
    distributions, but on a newworld machine they install just as easy as
    their intel counterparts in my experience.

    --
    Vriendelijke groet, | E-mail: michel@klijmij.net
    | Web : http://michel.klijmij.net/
    | Jabber: michel@jabber.xs4all.nl
    Michel Klijmij | GPGkey: 0x8A43CF30

  6. Re: my rant


    Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    interesting, but I would love one more opinion.

    Thanks!
    tjh

    Michel Klijmij writes:


    [...]

    > Then don't use Debian. Simple. I've installed YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake
    > (9.1, not the recent 10.x versions) on my old iMac (G3) without a
    > problem. Non-powerpc processors seems to be less supported by these
    > distributions, but on a newworld machine they install just as easy as
    > their intel counterparts in my experience.


    [...]


    --
    --
    Thomas Hunter
    Associate Professor
    Swarthmore College
    Department of Mathematics and Statistics
    610-328-8244

  7. Re: my rant

    In article ,
    Thomas Hunter wrote:

    > Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    > 3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    > to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    > interesting, but I would love one more opinion.


    I prefer Ubuntu, I don't know much about Mandrake currently, and I've
    given up on YDL. YDL is slow and buggy compared to the alternatives.
    Ubuntu has the most software, works easiest, and works fast and stable.
    But if you choose Ubuntu, you choose Gnome, as KDE doesn't work on it
    (unless you compile it yourself, probably). I prefer Gnome so that's not
    a problem for me though.

    If you wait for a bit, you can install the next Ubuntu, Hoary, with
    Gnome 2.10 and all sorts of new goodies.

    --
    Vriendelijke groet, | E-mail: michel@klijmij.net
    | Web : http://michel.klijmij.net/
    | Jabber: michel@jabber.xs4all.nl
    Michel Klijmij | GPGkey: 0x8A43CF30

  8. Re: my rant

    Thomas Hunter wrote:
    > Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    > 3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    > to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    > interesting, but I would love one more opinion.
    >
    > Thanks!
    > tjh
    >
    > Michel Klijmij writes:
    >
    >
    > [...]
    >
    >
    >>Then don't use Debian. Simple. I've installed YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake
    >>(9.1, not the recent 10.x versions) on my old iMac (G3) without a
    >>problem. Non-powerpc processors seems to be less supported by these
    >>distributions, but on a newworld machine they install just as easy as
    >>their intel counterparts in my experience.

    >
    >
    > [...]
    >
    >

    I tried YDL 3.0 and the installer got the keyboard mapped wrong and
    couldn't find the install cd. Tried Ubuntu live and the keyboard mapped
    fine but couldn't find the cd either. Now pleased with Debian since I
    got it to work, finally.
    kk


  9. Re: my rant

    The 603e machine probably needs MkLinux to use, I used MkLinux with a
    Debian userland for quite a while till the machine died...

    Linc
    Michel Klijmij wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Thomas Hunter wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    >>3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    >>to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    >>interesting, but I would love one more opinion.

    >
    >
    > I prefer Ubuntu, I don't know much about Mandrake currently, and I've
    > given up on YDL. YDL is slow and buggy compared to the alternatives.
    > Ubuntu has the most software, works easiest, and works fast and stable.
    > But if you choose Ubuntu, you choose Gnome, as KDE doesn't work on it
    > (unless you compile it yourself, probably). I prefer Gnome so that's not
    > a problem for me though.
    >
    > If you wait for a bit, you can install the next Ubuntu, Hoary, with
    > Gnome 2.10 and all sorts of new goodies.
    >


  10. Re: my rant

    The main frustration I've encountered with PPC is the install. My iBook
    will not read cdr's, and so you have to make a little 100mb partition
    and copy the kernel bootloader etcetera, then boot using the OFW prompt...

    I'm using YDL now and happy...

    Linc
    Michel Klijmij wrote:
    > In article ,
    > Thomas Hunter wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    >>3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    >>to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    >>interesting, but I would love one more opinion.

    >
    >
    > I prefer Ubuntu, I don't know much about Mandrake currently, and I've
    > given up on YDL. YDL is slow and buggy compared to the alternatives.
    > Ubuntu has the most software, works easiest, and works fast and stable.
    > But if you choose Ubuntu, you choose Gnome, as KDE doesn't work on it
    > (unless you compile it yourself, probably). I prefer Gnome so that's not
    > a problem for me though.
    >
    > If you wait for a bit, you can install the next Ubuntu, Hoary, with
    > Gnome 2.10 and all sorts of new goodies.
    >


  11. Re: my rant

    "jim" == jim bob and joe bob writes:

    jim> Installing Debian on a mac is next to impossible if you want
    jim> a system that will actually do something other than give
    jim> error messages. Is there anywhere in any
    jim> flavor/version/whatever an installer that will make a working
    jim> system out of the box, so to speak?

    I know you've ended up happy with the sarge installer, but I'd like to
    put my $0.02 in here.

    Some one on debian-powerpc once said that Debian users on mac are "a
    minority of a minority" because there are few powerpc users out there,
    and a surprisingly small number of them run Apples. You are just
    seeing the result of this demographic.

    Debian on mac will get better if and only if users write bug reports
    and help developers test patches (or write patches). One of the really
    nice things about Debian (in my experience) is that the community is
    actually very welcoming to people who take the time to write competent
    bug reports and follow up on them.

    If you really enjoy Debian do be sure to write bug reports about
    things that annoy you!

    Cheers!
    Shyamal


  12. Re: my rant

    Shyamal Prasad wrote:
    > "jim" == jim bob and joe bob writes:
    >
    > jim> Installing Debian on a mac is next to impossible if you want
    > jim> a system that will actually do something other than give
    > jim> error messages. Is there anywhere in any
    > jim> flavor/version/whatever an installer that will make a working
    > jim> system out of the box, so to speak?
    >
    > I know you've ended up happy with the sarge installer, but I'd like to
    > put my $0.02 in here.
    >
    > Some one on debian-powerpc once said that Debian users on mac are "a
    > minority of a minority" because there are few powerpc users out there,
    > and a surprisingly small number of them run Apples. You are just
    > seeing the result of this demographic.
    >
    > Debian on mac will get better if and only if users write bug reports
    > and help developers test patches (or write patches). One of the really
    > nice things about Debian (in my experience) is that the community is
    > actually very welcoming to people who take the time to write competent
    > bug reports and follow up on them.
    >
    > If you really enjoy Debian do be sure to write bug reports about
    > things that annoy you!
    >
    > Cheers!
    > Shyamal
    >


    People have bent over backwards to try and help me. I have learned
    quite a bit about the OS through all this. As you say there is a
    minority angle to all this. One can find concise instructions for
    nearly anything but they always seem to include items that do not exist
    on the ppc version or omit things that uniquely do exist there.
    I am using woody, by the way. I have installed it countless times only
    to have x-windows fail. The trick this time seems to have been
    increasing the upper limit of the monitor resolution. After doing that
    all of a sudden I had a working system. People kept telling me not to
    do another install, that it could be fixed. Until now I had nothing to
    lose but my time reinstalling. The system was not good for anything
    anyway and there are still things that I have not learned to access from
    anywhere but within the context of the installer. Now I have an install
    that works pretty well and I will be reluctant to destroy it even though
    I have not yet created anything of any value with it. Thanks for your
    opinion and encouragement.
    kk


  13. Re: my rant

    lincr wrote:
    > The 603e machine probably needs MkLinux to use, I used MkLinux with a
    > Debian userland for quite a while till the machine died...
    >
    > Linc
    >

    That could well be. I got woody to run on it just no x. I think that
    one has also died. At least it has failed to start the last few times I
    have tried. It has done that before but I don't remember the
    incantation that brings it back to life. Linuxppc reminds me of an
    article in the trucker magazine Overdrive. They had several veteran
    drivers offering advice to those who might be considering a career. To
    the man each advised to get into a different niche than he was involved
    in. That seems to be how it is with linux. If someone runs Debian
    surely mandrake is better. If someone uses yellow dog ubuntu is what you
    should try, etc. Debian is so far all I know so I will probably stick
    with it for now.
    KK

    Michel Klijmij wrote:
    >
    >> In article ,
    >> Thomas Hunter wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>> Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    >>> 3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    >>> to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    >>> interesting, but I would love one more opinion.

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> I prefer Ubuntu, I don't know much about Mandrake currently, and I've
    >> given up on YDL. YDL is slow and buggy compared to the alternatives.
    >> Ubuntu has the most software, works easiest, and works fast and
    >> stable. But if you choose Ubuntu, you choose Gnome, as KDE doesn't
    >> work on it (unless you compile it yourself, probably). I prefer Gnome
    >> so that's not a problem for me though.
    >>
    >> If you wait for a bit, you can install the next Ubuntu, Hoary, with
    >> Gnome 2.10 and all sorts of new goodies.
    >>



  14. Re: my rant

    jim bob and joe bob wrote:
    > lincr wrote:
    >
    >> The 603e machine probably needs MkLinux to use, I used MkLinux with a
    >> Debian userland for quite a while till the machine died...
    >>
    >> Linc
    >>

    > That could well be. I got woody to run on it just no x.

    If woody ran on it, then you don't need MkLinux. It's only useful if
    have a Nubus PowerMac, otherwise you can use a regular distro/kernel.


    I think that
    > one has also died. At least it has failed to start the last few times I
    > have tried. It has done that before but I don't remember the
    > incantation that brings it back to life. Linuxppc reminds me of an
    > article in the trucker magazine Overdrive. They had several veteran
    > drivers offering advice to those who might be considering a career. To
    > the man each advised to get into a different niche than he was involved
    > in. That seems to be how it is with linux. If someone runs Debian
    > surely mandrake is better. If someone uses yellow dog ubuntu is what you
    > should try, etc. Debian is so far all I know so I will probably stick
    > with it for now.
    > KK
    >
    > Michel Klijmij wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>> In article ,
    >>> Thomas Hunter wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>> Which of the (YDL, Ubuntu and Mandrake) did you like best? I use YDL
    >>>> 3.0 on my G3 and G4 now, but am thinking about upgrading and am trying
    >>>> to decide whether to change distro. The posts in this group have been
    >>>> interesting, but I would love one more opinion.
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> I prefer Ubuntu, I don't know much about Mandrake currently, and I've
    >>> given up on YDL. YDL is slow and buggy compared to the alternatives.
    >>> Ubuntu has the most software, works easiest, and works fast and
    >>> stable. But if you choose Ubuntu, you choose Gnome, as KDE doesn't
    >>> work on it (unless you compile it yourself, probably). I prefer Gnome
    >>> so that's not a problem for me though.
    >>>
    >>> If you wait for a bit, you can install the next Ubuntu, Hoary, with
    >>> Gnome 2.10 and all sorts of new goodies.
    >>>

    >


  15. Re: my rant


    "Keith" == Keith Krehbiel <""kk\"@(none)> writes:

    I hope I got that attribution right....

    Keith> I am using woody, by the way.

    Ooops - for some reason I thought you switched to sarge.

    Keith> Until now I had nothing to lose but my time reinstalling.
    Keith> The system was not good for anything anyway and there are
    Keith> still things that I have not learned to access from
    Keith> anywhere but within the context

    The Debian installer has been completely rewritten in sarge and is
    significantly improved. If you really have the time to try installing
    and figuring out stuff you might want to give it a spin. Bug reports
    tend to get fairly prompt attention.

    Cheers!
    Shyamal

  16. Re: my rant

    Shyamal Prasad wrote:
    > "Keith" == Keith Krehbiel <""kk\"@(none)> writes:
    >
    > I hope I got that attribution right....
    >
    > Keith> I am using woody, by the way.
    >
    > Ooops - for some reason I thought you switched to sarge.
    >
    > Keith> Until now I had nothing to lose but my time reinstalling.
    > Keith> The system was not good for anything anyway and there are
    > Keith> still things that I have not learned to access from
    > Keith> anywhere but within the context
    >
    > The Debian installer has been completely rewritten in sarge and is
    > significantly improved. If you really have the time to try installing
    > and figuring out stuff you might want to give it a spin. Bug reports
    > tend to get fairly prompt attention.
    >
    > Cheers!
    > Shyamal

    I may have to try sarge. I have been concerned that the later versions
    will have left my antiquated hardware behind. My nice system crashed
    last night and I have been trying to reinstall once again. I suppose
    the old one myght have been fixed but I could not seem to log in as
    root. For some reason I could not get rebooted after the initial
    install from floppies. I finally made a new set of floppies on new
    disks and then did a low level format on my drive and ran Norton over it
    just for good measure. One interesting error that I got repeatedly was
    that it was unable to find a hfs partition. I had on a few occasions
    initialized a new partition table and had no hfs on the disk. I used
    various kernals in bootx and finally got it to boot using the 2.4 from
    the Debian cd with no options set and no paramaters. This install has
    me back the same old no x environment. If my ubuntu disks show up I may
    try that next. Had no success with the live cd but maybe the regular
    installers will work. Who knows?
    kk



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