Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs? - Portable

This is a discussion on Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs? - Portable ; Given that there's been progress in porting Linux to various Pocket PCs, how about modern Palm OS hardware like the new Clié UX50 or Palm's Tungstens? Is it a lack of hardware specifications? Yeechang, who thought very very hard about ...

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Thread: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

  1. Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Given that there's been progress in porting Linux to various Pocket
    PCs, how about modern Palm OS hardware like the new Clié UX50 or
    Palm's Tungstens? Is it a lack of hardware specifications?

    Yeechang, who thought very very hard about getting a Zaurus C760
    before buying an UX50

    --
    Yes, I'm to blame for comp.sys.palmtops.pilot instead of .palm or .palmos.

  2. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    In article , ylee@pobox.com says...

    > Given that there's been progress in porting Linux to various Pocket
    > PCs, how about modern Palm OS hardware like the new Clié UX50 or
    > Palm's Tungstens? Is it a lack of hardware specifications?
    >
    > Yeechang, who thought very very hard about getting a Zaurus C760
    > before buying an UX50


    I remember hearing about Linux for the Palm ages ago, the only problem
    is/was that there were not many apps for it. This must have been at
    least for OS 4.

    --
    Dazed

    Remove 'NOSPAM' to reply by E-Mail.

  3. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    With the recent realizations of how Palm OS works, this topic is going to
    become MUCH MORE important to me.

    "Yeechang Lee" wrote in message
    news:slrnblv9g2.av1.ylee@pobox.com...
    > Given that there's been progress in porting Linux to various Pocket
    > PCs, how about modern Palm OS hardware like the new Clié UX50 or
    > Palm's Tungstens? Is it a lack of hardware specifications?
    >
    > Yeechang, who thought very very hard about getting a Zaurus C760
    > before buying an UX50
    >
    > --
    > Yes, I'm to blame for comp.sys.palmtops.pilot instead of .palm or .palmos.




  4. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    "Pheuque" writes:

    > With the recent realizations of how Palm OS works, this topic is going to
    > become MUCH MORE important to me.


    On the other hand, PalmOS 6 will have memory protection and
    multitasking, so it should be more usable and closer to a POSIX
    platform...

    --
    __Pascal_Bourguignon__
    http://www.informatimago.com/
    Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.

  5. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Really! Now we're talking!

    It could be like the leap from OS9 to OS X on the Mac. THe only thing I
    don;t like about OS X is that it's Mac only. I think they should release an
    x86 code version and take on MosterSloth for real. All my major application
    are already OS X ready so it would be a matter of updated with the
    manufacturer.

    "Pascal Bourguignon" wrote in message
    news:87he3hmk9f.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com...
    > "Pheuque" writes:
    >
    > > With the recent realizations of how Palm OS works, this topic is going

    to
    > > become MUCH MORE important to me.

    >
    > On the other hand, PalmOS 6 will have memory protection and
    > multitasking, so it should be more usable and closer to a POSIX
    > platform...
    >
    > --
    > __Pascal_Bourguignon__
    > http://www.informatimago.com/
    > Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.




  6. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Pascal Bourguignon wrote:

    > On the other hand, PalmOS 6 will have memory protection and
    > multitasking, so it should be more usable and closer to a POSIX
    > platform...


    Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process from
    corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a system
    in place.


  7. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Steven Fisher writes:

    > Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
    >
    > > On the other hand, PalmOS 6 will have memory protection and
    > > multitasking, so it should be more usable and closer to a POSIX
    > > platform...

    >
    > Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process
    > from corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a
    > system in place.


    Yeah! That's why in the week I've had my Tungsten C, it crashed
    already 6 times, two times I had to do a hard reset because the reset
    button did not work.


    --
    __Pascal_Bourguignon__
    http://www.informatimago.com/
    Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.

  8. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Yeah... get an App that doesn't like OS5 or the T|C, and you could be
    re-installing everything from scratch.

    "Pascal Bourguignon" wrote in message
    news:87pti3v92u.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com...
    > Steven Fisher writes:
    >
    > > Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
    > >
    > > > On the other hand, PalmOS 6 will have memory protection and
    > > > multitasking, so it should be more usable and closer to a POSIX
    > > > platform...

    > >
    > > Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process
    > > from corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a
    > > system in place.

    >
    > Yeah! That's why in the week I've had my Tungsten C, it crashed
    > already 6 times, two times I had to do a hard reset because the reset
    > button did not work.
    >
    >
    > --
    > __Pascal_Bourguignon__
    > http://www.informatimago.com/
    > Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.




  9. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?


    "Pascal Bourguignon" wrote in message
    news:87pti3v92u.fsf@thalassa.informatimago.com...
    > Steven Fisher writes:
    >
    > > Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
    > >
    > > > On the other hand, PalmOS 6 will have memory protection and
    > > > multitasking, so it should be more usable and closer to a POSIX
    > > > platform...

    > >
    > > Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process
    > > from corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a
    > > system in place.

    >
    > Yeah! That's why in the week I've had my Tungsten C, it crashed
    > already 6 times, two times I had to do a hard reset because the reset
    > button did not work.


    When I was checking out the Tungsten C in Circuit City it crashed on me in
    less than a minute. The salesguy hardreset it with a paperclip. A minute
    later it crashed again. It's too bad, it looked like it had potential.



  10. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?


    "Steven Fisher" wrote in message
    news:yrJ8b.142850$la.3034906@news1.calgary.shaw.ca ...
    >
    > Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process from
    > corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a system
    > in place.


    Which is kind of pointless considering that there's only one process that
    all apps run under...

    --
    *Art


  11. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Arthur Hagen wrote:

    > "Steven Fisher" wrote in message
    > news:yrJ8b.142850$la.3034906@news1.calgary.shaw.ca ...
    >
    >>Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process from
    >>corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a system
    >>in place.


    > Which is kind of pointless considering that there's only one process that
    > all apps run under...


    It is kinda pointless, but not entirely. Unless you use an SD Card
    (which I only use sometimes), all data is in memory. It'd certainly
    be a BAD THING if I install some game or something and then suddenly
    it crashes and all my Datebook entries are gone. The memory protection
    helps in this regard, which is actually a cool thing and quite clever.

    By the way, can anyone explain how the memory protection works?
    Is it just a matter of most Palm code using 16-bit relative
    pointers and the protected data being stored more than 32 kilobytes
    away? That would certainly do the trick and would work fine, but
    then there are some other ways that would work as well. (There could
    even be a special circuit on the bus between the processor and memory
    that would turn off writing to memory if certain addresses come
    across the bus -- that would only take a flip flop or two and some
    NAND gates to implement. Or it could be built into the processor,
    although I thought the Dragonball was 68000-compatible, which would
    mean no MMU instructions, but maybe it's 68030-compatible partially
    or something.)

    - Logan


  12. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    That only happens if there is a very funky problem going on. Are you sure he
    did a hard reset? There 3 reset's with a Palm. (at least with a T|C)

    A "normal" reset is just the paperclip.
    A "Soft" reset is with the paperclip and holding the up button. This is a
    little like safe mode on a PC, or running with extensions off on the Mac.
    A "Hard" reset is holding the power and using the paper clip. You'll them be
    asked if you want to restore your system to factory defaults.
    This erases everything in the T|C's memory.


    "Nakas" wrote in message
    news:Ts19b.443454$o%2.200769@sccrnsc02...

    > When I was checking out the Tungsten C in Circuit City it crashed on me in
    > less than a minute. The salesguy hardreset it with a paperclip. A minute
    > later it crashed again. It's too bad, it looked like it had potential.
    >
    >




  13. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    On Mon, 15 Sep 2003 13:23:17 GMT, Pheuque wrote:



    >
    > "Nakas" wrote in message
    > news:Ts19b.443454$o%2.200769@sccrnsc02...



    >> When I was checking out the Tungsten C in Circuit City it crashed on me in
    >> less than a minute. The salesguy hardreset it with a paperclip. A minute
    >> later it crashed again. It's too bad, it looked like it had potential.
    >>
    >>
    >>



    > That only happens if there is a very funky problem going on. Are you sure he
    > did a hard reset? There 3 reset's with a Palm. (at least with a T|C)



    > A "normal" reset is just the paperclip. A "Soft" reset is with the paperclip
    > and holding the up button. This is a little like safe mode on a PC, or
    > running with extensions off on the Mac. A "Hard" reset is holding the power
    > and using the paper clip. You'll them be asked if you want to restore your
    > system to factory defaults. This erases everything in the T|C's memory.


    Actually you missed the Double-soft reset, Extended Hard Reset and Debug
    reset.
    <http://discussion.brighthand.com/pal...p?threadid=989
    >

    --
    Jim Anderson, Omphaloskepsis apprentice (@)
    ( 8(|) To e-mail me, just pull'my_finger'
    The more hair you loose, the more head you get.

  14. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Pascal Bourguignon wrote:

    > Yeah! That's why in the week I've had my Tungsten C, it crashed
    > already 6 times, two times I had to do a hard reset because the reset
    > button did not work.


    Did I say in there that it wouldn't crash? In fact, memory protection
    guarantees *more* crashes, since the device will crash rather than allow
    illegal operations.


  15. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Logan Shaw writes:

    > Arthur Hagen wrote:
    >
    > > "Steven Fisher" wrote in message
    > > news:yrJ8b.142850$la.3034906@news1.calgary.shaw.ca ...
    > >
    > >>Memory protection is defined as a system that prevents one process from
    > >>corrupting the memory of another. Palm OS has always had such a system
    > >>in place.

    >
    > > Which is kind of pointless considering that there's only one process that
    > > all apps run under...

    >
    > It is kinda pointless, but not entirely. Unless you use an SD Card
    > (which I only use sometimes), all data is in memory. It'd certainly
    > be a BAD THING if I install some game or something and then suddenly
    > it crashes and all my Datebook entries are gone. The memory protection
    > helps in this regard, which is actually a cool thing and quite clever.
    >
    > By the way, can anyone explain how the memory protection works?


    It needs some addition hardware: a Memory Management Unit (MMU). The
    processor can run in at least two different modes: supervisor and
    user. This translates in a different signal issued on one of the pins
    of the processor. In the supervisor mode, all the state of the
    processor and all its instructions are available. In user mode, only a
    limited view of the processor state and a few less instructions are
    available. The MMU chip senses that signal on the pin indicating in
    which mode the processor is running. When it's in supervisor mode, it
    allows the processor to modify mapping tables, which say that such
    "virtual" address range (as issued by the processor) should be mapped
    to such "physical" address range (used to address the physical
    memory). When it's in user mode, the mapping is in effect. So the
    operating system, which is running in supervisor mode can define
    ranges of addresses accessible by a user process and since the ranges
    belongging to other processes are not mapped, this user process cannot
    access them. Everytime the operating systems schedules another user
    process (which happens several tens of times per second on a time
    shared system, once every few minutes on PalmOS), it must update the
    MMU table (or switch to a different table if it's a powerful MMU chip
    with several tables).

    > Is it just a matter of most Palm code using 16-bit relative
    > pointers and the protected data being stored more than 32 kilobytes
    > away? That would certainly do the trick and would work fine, but
    > then there are some other ways that would work as well. (There could
    > even be a special circuit on the bus between the processor and memory
    > that would turn off writing to memory if certain addresses come
    > across the bus -- that would only take a flip flop or two and some
    > NAND gates to implement. Or it could be built into the processor,
    > although I thought the Dragonball was 68000-compatible, which would
    > mean no MMU instructions, but maybe it's 68030-compatible partially
    > or something.)


    That could help but a bugged or nefarious program can easily use
    32-bit addresses and access all the memory.


    --
    __Pascal_Bourguignon__
    http://www.informatimago.com/
    Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.

  16. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Arthur Hagen wrote:

    > Which is kind of pointless considering that there's only one process that
    > all apps run under...


    Not exactly. There's two processes in a Palm; one that runs system
    services and one that runs whatever application is foreground. The
    foreground application is not allowed to access outside of the
    application heap, which by definition only contains the foreground
    application's variables.

    Accessing permament storage and other aspects of memory -- messing with
    other applications -- is only available through customized routines that
    will crash the Palm rather than let you do something you shouldn't.

    This is all extremely well documented, and it is *very* effective.

    In the case of the reset crashes listed here, almost certainly a Palm OS
    4 application that is incompatible with Palm OS 5 has been installed. It
    is crashing on reset because by design the Palm OS automatically
    launches every application on reset that requests it (and possibly some
    that don't). Remove the offending app (after doing a no-notification
    reset) and the crashes will disappear.


  17. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Jim Anderson wrote:
    > Actually you missed the Double-soft reset, Extended Hard Reset and Debug
    > reset.


    And the half double decaffeinated half-caf reset, with a twist of lemon.

    I'm really not sure I understand what the double soft reset does
    differently than a regular soft reset or whether its different
    behavior was an intentional thing, but maybe it'll come in
    handy one day...

    - Logan


  18. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Pascal Bourguignon wrote:

    > Logan Shaw writes:


    >>By the way, can anyone explain how the memory protection works?


    > It needs some addition hardware: a Memory Management Unit (MMU). The
    > processor can run in at least two different modes: supervisor and
    > user.


    Well, certainly this is how memory protection works on a desktop
    or server machine. But does it really work this way on the
    Palm? I looked up some of the specs for the MC68**328 DragonBall
    processors that are used in the Palms (before OS 5.x), and they
    do not have an MMU. At least, the product literate doesn't
    mention it, and in fact it says that the core is a "Static FLX68000
    CPU -- identical to MC68EC000 microprocessor". Since I have done
    assembly language programming on the MC68000, I know it doesn't
    have MMU functions. It does have a privileged and user-mode
    distinction, but as I recall it was flawed and they reworked it
    a little bit when they introduced the 68010. Then of course
    everything was reworked further with the 68020 (when they introduced
    an external MMU chip) and the 68030 (which had an internal MMU).

    Anyway, as far as I know, the 68000 doesn't include an MMU and
    wasn't really designed to work with one. That's why I'm curious
    how Palm has pulled this off.

    - Logan


  19. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Only machines that are *very* stable offer that many ways to perform a
    reset ;-)

    I've owned Psion / Symbian machines for several years and literally
    *never* had to do a hard reset and just 2 or 3 soft resets (only after
    having installed really nasty software). Never faced any data loss,
    never needed to restore from my PC-backup. The reason? Good memory
    protection on a full multi-tasking / multi-threading OS.
    Recently I had to look for something else after another hardware failure
    (yes - the Psion's have their weaknesses) and switched to PalmOS 5 /
    Clie TG50.
    I do like the machine, but already had to perform a few hard resets -
    one per month on average. Conclusion: PalmOS has less protection against
    misbehaving software. With regular downloads to try-out stuff you really
    *need* to HotSync frequenty!

    Reinder


    Pheuque wrote:
    > That only happens if there is a very funky problem going on. Are you sure he
    > did a hard reset? There 3 reset's with a Palm. (at least with a T|C)
    >
    > A "normal" reset is just the paperclip.
    > A "Soft" reset is with the paperclip and holding the up button. This is a
    > little like safe mode on a PC, or running with extensions off on the Mac.
    > A "Hard" reset is holding the power and using the paper clip. You'll them be
    > asked if you want to restore your system to factory defaults.
    > This erases everything in the T|C's memory.
    >
    >
    > "Nakas" wrote in message
    > news:Ts19b.443454$o%2.200769@sccrnsc02...
    >
    >
    >>When I was checking out the Tungsten C in Circuit City it crashed on me in
    >>less than a minute. The salesguy hardreset it with a paperclip. A minute
    >>later it crashed again. It's too bad, it looked like it had potential.
    >>



  20. Re: Linux on Palm/Sony PDAs?

    Steven Fisher writes:

    > Pascal Bourguignon wrote:
    >
    > > Yeah! That's why in the week I've had my Tungsten C, it crashed
    > > already 6 times, two times I had to do a hard reset because the reset
    > > button did not work.

    >
    > Did I say in there that it wouldn't crash? In fact, memory protection
    > guarantees *more* crashes, since the device will crash rather than
    > allow illegal operations.


    I do not consider killing a buggy program to be crashing.

    I do consider a buggy program hanging my computer to be crashing.

    --
    __Pascal_Bourguignon__
    http://www.informatimago.com/
    Do not adjust your mind, there is a fault in reality.

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