[9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers? - Plan9

This is a discussion on [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers? - Plan9 ; * Anant Narayanan wrote: > I must say that it is highly unlikely that Mozilla will adopt the path > of splitting the "monolithic app into a bunch of fileservers" simply > because that would involve a lot work, and ...

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Thread: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

  1. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    * Anant Narayanan wrote:

    > I must say that it is highly unlikely that Mozilla will adopt the path
    > of splitting the "monolithic app into a bunch of fileservers" simply
    > because that would involve a lot work, and potentially a lot code to
    > be written from scratch.


    Well, let's see. I'll try to use the current discussions to push 9P in.
    Mozilla folks aren't very open to innovation (no matter how old/mature
    this innovation already is), but at least I've still got some hope

    Of course this will take a while, but it can be done.
    (give me, lets say, 10 good devs for about half a year, and I'll
    show you ;-P)

    I don't want a completely modularized / splitted Mozilla (not yet),
    moving out things like web access (-> webfs), profile handling (so many
    separate instances can run simultaniously), plugins (webfs, rio, ...)
    would alreay be a HUGE advantage.

    Everyone of you can help by just advocating 9P and demonstrating
    what it can do


    cu
    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

    cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
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  2. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    * sqweek wrote:
    > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
    > > * Steve Simon wrote:
    > >
    > >> How about if you start a page with a list of the 9p
    > >> file servers you know of, say on the plan9 wiki, and
    > >> then email 9fans asking them to add any that you have
    > >> missed?

    > >
    > > If I had write access, I'd just did it ;-o

    >
    > Everyone has write access to the plan 9 wiki.


    hmm, perhaps I didn't look hard enough, but I didn't see anything
    like an "edit" button etc ... ;-o

    > http://9p.cat-v.org is halfway there, makes more sense to improve
    > that than start a new site. Get in touch with Uriel if you want
    > something on there that isn't already there, or if you want to make
    > his life easy you can send a patch to the document source. You can get
    > the source by appending .md to the url (eg
    > http://9p.cat-v.org/implementations.md or http://9p.cat-v.org/index.md
    > ) - they are written in markdown[1] syntax. Also he has something in
    > the works to enable editing via http, which I believe is implemented
    > but needs testing...


    Okay, I'll get back to it in a few days. But this site clearly has
    a big bottleg when it comes to collaboration, because Uriel has to
    maintain that all.

    I'd really like to get the whole 9P topic to very broad audience.
    My suggested site isn't actually for us, who are on this list, but
    those who aren't, those wo probably hear about 9P the first time.
    So we IMHO should learn from all the big "community" projects how
    to attract people and get them involved with minimal effort. It's
    not for us, it's for them ...
    (a psychological, not a technical decision).


    cu
    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

    cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


  3. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
    > * sqweek wrote:
    >> Everyone has write access to the plan 9 wiki.

    >
    > hmm, perhaps I didn't look hard enough, but I didn't see anything
    > like an "edit" button etc ... ;-o


    Put in Acme Wiki.


  4. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    >So we IMHO should learn from all the big "community" projects how
    >to attract people and get them involved with minimal effort. It's
    >not for us, it's for them ...


    i know, but have you spoken to the auther of the comment below:

    >Mozilla folks aren't very open to innovation (no matter how old/mature
    >this innovation already is), but at least I've still got some hope


    hey! it was you!

    that's more my experience with Apache and Perl, so far,
    and not even for `innovation', just getting their stuff going on Windows.


  5. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Sat, 2008-11-08 at 06:47 -0500, erik quanstrom wrote:
    > > Sure. But that would an argument in favor of the Plan 9/Inferno
    > > kernel architecture, not the protocol itself. Nobody's denying
    > > that 9P is a perfect match to that kind of kernel architecture.
    > > What I'm trying to find out is whether the protocol could stand
    > > its own ground even if Plan9 kernel is not serving nor muxing it.

    >
    > this depends entirely on your criteria and constraints.


    Ok, here's a stab at describing my requirement: imagine a situation
    where you need to make access to a large variety of existing external
    resources (and I really do mean *variety*) be:
    1. transparent to the users
    2. independent of the user's environment
    3. independent of the location of the users
    4. independent of the user's ability to *explicitly* do networking

    Most of these existing external resources are already shared using
    protocols quite different from 9P. Worse yet, the servers serving
    them are not under our control. Thus making them speak 9P at the
    end point of a server is not an option.

    Now, at this point, one might wonder why not use FUSE and import these
    resources directly at the client end-point? The answer is quite simple:
    because of MS Windows (#2) and because of the potential inability
    to dial out (#4) on demand.

    Thanks,
    Roman.

    P.S. On a similar note I'd like to add that the requirement outlined
    above seem to be quite typical in today's world. See, on one hand new
    kind of resources (take flickr or youtube as an example) are very
    unlikely to be shared using 9P, unless WE can argue that 9P is somehow
    radically better (saves bandwidth, etc.) for the resource *maintainer*.
    Not an impossible thing to articulate (as some of the responses I've
    got to my earlier question indicated -- thank you guys!) but a difficult
    one. Why? Well, because the next question you get from the maintainers
    is: who can import our resources using 9P on the client side?

    I wish 9p:// URL worked out of the box in Firefox, but it doesn't. It is
    also not supported by JDK & C#. And even we we stick with the "resources
    as regular files" approach on the client you're stuck with mostly POSIX
    environment + locking (+caching). POSIX means symlink(2) and mknod(2)
    (and locking/caching means a lot of pain and mental masturbation).
    Last time I checked, we didn't have consensus on how things like these
    are supposed to be handled by 9P.

    And finally -- it is ok to say: "they are not supposed to". If that's
    our collective answer, that also answers my earlier question -- 9P as
    it stands is useless in a situation like I'm in.



  6. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On 10-Nov-08, at 10:56 PM, Roman V. Shaposhnik wrote:
    > I wish 9p:// URL worked out of the box in Firefox, but it doesn't.


    Shameless plug:
    It does if you install the Angled extension: http://www.kix.in/projects/web9/
    Ok, I lied - ninep:// works, 9p:// doesn't

    --
    Anant



  7. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 15:17 +0900, sqweek wrote:
    > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 2:50 PM, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
    > > * Steve Simon wrote:
    > >
    > >> How about if you start a page with a list of the 9p
    > >> file servers you know of, say on the plan9 wiki, and
    > >> then email 9fans asking them to add any that you have
    > >> missed?

    > >
    > > If I had write access, I'd just did it ;-o

    >
    > Everyone has write access to the plan 9 wiki.


    plan 9 wiki is a very good suggestion. I would like to start
    such a topic there. I do have 2 questions though:
    1. It doesn't seem to allow anonymous edits:
    I tried:
    http://netlib.bell-labs.com/wiki/pla...dbox/edit.html
    and all I got was:
    http://netlib.bell-labs.com/magic/wikipost
    Object not found
    The object does not exist on this server.

    errstr: '/bin/ip/httpd/wikipost' does not exist
    uri host:
    header host:
    actual host: plan9.bell-labs.com
    Direct edits from my Acme also don't seem to work.

    2. When/if it works what would be the appropriate place
    to stick that topic into?

    > > Meanwhile I've just added my 9P libs (libmixp, libmixpsrv)
    > > to the 9P page @ wikipedia - probably a good starting point, too.
    > >
    > > But if we're talking about 9P/Styx in general (not specifically
    > > on Plan9 or Inferno), it might be wise to set up a sepate website.
    > > This site should also contain information on topics like what 9P
    > > is really good for and why application developers should use it
    > >
    > > Just let me know if you'd like to feed some input to such a site,
    > > and I'll set up one.

    >
    > http://9p.cat-v.org is halfway there, makes more sense to improve
    > that than start a new site.


    Agreed. In fact, halfway is a very accurate description ;-) It already
    has http://9p.cat-v.org/implementations, but it still lacks what I
    would call a "servers" page.

    > Get in touch with Uriel if you want something on there that isn't already there,


    That would be http://9p.cat-v.org/servers linked from his Left-hand-side
    menu. Speaking of getting in touch with Uriel -- is he not subscribed
    to this list? ;-) Or well, I'll CC him ;-)

    > or if you want to make
    > his life easy you can send a patch to the document source. You can get
    > the source by appending .md to the url (eg
    > http://9p.cat-v.org/implementations.md or http://9p.cat-v.org/index.md
    > ) - they are written in markdown[1] syntax. Also he has something in
    > the works to enable editing via http, which I believe is implemented
    > but needs testing...


    Thanks for the .md suggestion. One thing that I clearly see missing on
    the implementations page is the Java implementation done at LSUB.

    Thanks,
    Roman.



  8. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Sun, 2008-11-09 at 11:26 +0000, Steve Simon wrote:
    > How about if you start a page with a list of the 9p
    > file servers you know of, say on the plan9 wiki, and
    > then email 9fans asking them to add any that you have
    > missed?


    That's the plan!

    > I can see how such a thing might be a useful resource
    > to people on the list as well as a promotional tool.
    > It could also (perhaps) focus attention of those with
    > time and interest towards the best ones to tackle next.


    I can do whatever cataloging is necessary, that's not a
    problem.

    Describing the applications and limitations of 9P on the
    other hand, feels like something that would belong to:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9P
    and I would really feel much more comfortable if some of
    the "founding fathers" can take a stab at it first.

    Thanks,
    Roman.

    P.S. Or am I not appreciating the collaborative nature of the
    Wikipedia? :-)



  9. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    >And even we we stick with the "resources
    >as regular files" approach on the client you're stuck with mostly POSIX
    >environment + locking (+caching). POSIX means symlink(2) and mknod(2)


    no, because (unless i've misunderstood) they are accessing resources
    (as regular files) on a remote server, and symbolic links and
    outdated major/minor are irrelevant and not needed.


  10. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Mon, 2008-11-10 at 23:38 +0000, C H Forsyth wrote:
    > >And even we we stick with the "resources
    > >as regular files" approach on the client you're stuck with mostly POSIX
    > >environment + locking (+caching). POSIX means symlink(2) and mknod(2)

    >
    > no, because (unless i've misunderstood) they are accessing resources
    > (as regular files) on a remote server, and symbolic links and
    > outdated major/minor are irrelevant and not needed.


    Agreed. That's why I didn't include this bit in the main set of
    requirements.

    But wouldn't you agree that files kept on a remote POSIX file system is
    an important and common class of remotes resources for which we don't
    quite have a consensus on how to use 9P?

    We have at least three different attempts at solving that: 9P2000.u,
    Skip's Text/Rext and a "parallel tree" approach, but no consensus(*)

    Thanks,
    Roman.



  11. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    >But wouldn't you agree that files kept on a remote POSIX file system is
    >an important and common class of remotes resources for which we don't
    >quite have a consensus on how to use 9P?


    yes, but both your examples are things of purely local significance.
    the symbolic links point to something local (or not), and the major/minor
    numbers are decidedly only local (since they index a kernel's data structures!).
    so: access the things they refer to.
    sorry, to which they refer.


  12. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Roman V. Shaposhnik wrote:

    > We have at least three different attempts at solving that: 9P2000.u,
    > Skip's Text/Rext and a "parallel tree" approach, but no consensus(*)
    >


    four. My original v9fs added 3 ops for supporting symlinks and
    hardlinks. There was no option.

    ron


  13. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:19 PM, ron minnich wrote:
    > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 3:45 PM, Roman V. Shaposhnik wrote:
    >
    >> We have at least three different attempts at solving that: 9P2000.u,
    >> Skip's Text/Rext and a "parallel tree" approach, but no consensus(*)
    >>

    >
    > four. My original v9fs added 3 ops for supporting symlinks and
    > hardlinks. There was no option.
    >


    Soon to be 5. 9P.L coming soon to the dismay of Uriels everywhere...

    -eric


  14. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 00:14 +0000, Charles Forsyth wrote:
    > >But wouldn't you agree that files kept on a remote POSIX file system is
    > >an important and common class of remotes resources for which we don't
    > >quite have a consensus on how to use 9P?

    >
    > yes, but both your examples are things of purely local significance.


    Sorry I'm confused, which examples are you talking about? Anyway, for
    the sake of this conversation lets focus on: using 9P as the means to
    access files on a remote POSIX filesystem.

    > the symbolic links point to something local (or not), and the major/minor
    > numbers are decidedly only local (since they index a kernel's data structures!).
    > sorry, to which they refer.


    This approach seems to be flawed on two accounts:
    1. it forces the server to resolve symlinks and special
    nodes, without an option for the client to do the same.
    That prevents cross-tree symlinks and nodes as the
    points of rendezvous *on the client*. IOW, the following
    will not work:
    $ mknod /test p
    $ echo test >> /test &
    cat /test
    I can buy a point of view that reading on a node that happens
    to be a character device should really bring the data from
    the remote server's device attached to that node. However,
    that point of view is much more difficult to sell for
    FIFOs.

    2. It doesn't let manipulate these special files. IOW,
    readlink(2) fails and so does mknod(2)/symlink(2).

    For the practical application of 9P a failing symlink(2) is a big
    source of problems.

    In fact, "why does my build fail" was the first question that people
    asked me once I demonstrated my prototype of drawterm written in
    Java. It fails because it tries to symlink within a tree that
    is exported.

    Thanks,
    Roman.



  15. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    Why does your build fail? Lack of vision to the extreme resulting in a
    completely horrible way of building things that has grew and grew to
    something that not even its mother could not love.

    In some sense it's good that it fails. If you want to build things
    that way then don't use plan9. Seriously. The simplest program is now
    entangled in the most horrendous config/build mess. Why? Because
    that's how you do things. No!!!

    "Hideous, horrible!" - as a friend at the Labs would shout (not about
    CS, he was a physicist).

    As for mknod, I don't think it's worth trying to keep that alive, let
    alone breaking plan9 to do it.

    brucee

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 3:00 AM, Roman V. Shaposhnik wrote:
    > On Tue, 2008-11-11 at 00:14 +0000, Charles Forsyth wrote:
    >> >But wouldn't you agree that files kept on a remote POSIX file system is
    >> >an important and common class of remotes resources for which we don't
    >> >quite have a consensus on how to use 9P?

    >>
    >> yes, but both your examples are things of purely local significance.

    >
    > Sorry I'm confused, which examples are you talking about? Anyway, for
    > the sake of this conversation lets focus on: using 9P as the means to
    > access files on a remote POSIX filesystem.
    >
    >> the symbolic links point to something local (or not), and the major/minor
    >> numbers are decidedly only local (since they index a kernel's data structures!).
    >> sorry, to which they refer.

    >
    > This approach seems to be flawed on two accounts:
    > 1. it forces the server to resolve symlinks and special
    > nodes, without an option for the client to do the same.
    > That prevents cross-tree symlinks and nodes as the
    > points of rendezvous *on the client*. IOW, the following
    > will not work:
    > $ mknod /test p
    > $ echo test >> /test &
    > cat /test
    > I can buy a point of view that reading on a node that happens
    > to be a character device should really bring the data from
    > the remote server's device attached to that node. However,
    > that point of view is much more difficult to sell for
    > FIFOs.
    >
    > 2. It doesn't let manipulate these special files. IOW,
    > readlink(2) fails and so does mknod(2)/symlink(2).
    >
    > For the practical application of 9P a failing symlink(2) is a big
    > source of problems.
    >
    > In fact, "why does my build fail" was the first question that people
    > asked me once I demonstrated my prototype of drawterm written in
    > Java. It fails because it tries to symlink within a tree that
    > is exported.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Roman.
    >
    >
    >



  16. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    * Roman V. Shaposhnik wrote:

    > P.S. On a similar note I'd like to add that the requirement outlined
    > above seem to be quite typical in today's world. See, on one hand new
    > kind of resources (take flickr or youtube as an example) are very


    Actually, I've got flickr-9P on my 2do-list (but still lacking time
    for it yet). And my media hosting platform will also get an 9P interface.

    > Not an impossible thing to articulate (as some of the responses I've
    > got to my earlier question indicated -- thank you guys!) but a difficult
    > one. Why? Well, because the next question you get from the maintainers
    > is: who can import our resources using 9P on the client side?


    Perhaps someone should sit down and write an win32 driver for it ;-)
    Linux has 9P support, BSD too (IMHO). And also some common userland
    apps like Midnight Commander (not in mainline yet, but that's coming).

    > I wish 9p:// URL worked out of the box in Firefox, but it doesn't.


    I've did some pieces for Seamonkey. (but not stable yet).

    > It is also not supported by JDK & C#.


    That's under way, feel free to jump on the train
    Maybe, once I've got jmixp up and running, I'll port it to flex ;-o


    cu
    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

    cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


  17. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    * Charles Forsyth wrote:
    > >So we IMHO should learn from all the big "community" projects how
    > >to attract people and get them involved with minimal effort. It's
    > >not for us, it's for them ...

    >
    > i know, but have you spoken to the auther of the comment below:
    >
    > >Mozilla folks aren't very open to innovation (no matter how old/mature
    > >this innovation already is), but at least I've still got some hope

    >
    > hey! it was you!


    I didn't say we should learn from Mozilla ... ;-o

    > that's more my experience with Apache and Perl, so far,
    > and not even for `innovation', just getting their stuff going
    > on Windows.


    Yeah, they're even incapable of writing clean makefiles ;-o


    cu
    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

    cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


  18. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    > Actually, I've got flickr-9P on my 2do-list [ ... ]

    Is there any hope of re-winding the clock back to some time pre-
    September?


  19. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    * Robert Raschke wrote:
    > On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
    > > * sqweek wrote:
    > >> Everyone has write access to the plan 9 wiki.

    > >
    > > hmm, perhaps I didn't look hard enough, but I didn't see anything
    > > like an "edit" button etc ... ;-o

    >
    > Put in Acme Wiki.


    Just curious: does this also work w/ p9p (don't have native Plan9
    running) ? What exactly do I have to type in ?


    thx
    --
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Enrico Weigelt, metux IT service -- http://www.metux.de/

    cellphone: +49 174 7066481 email: info@metux.de skype: nekrad666
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------
    Embedded-Linux / Portierung / Opensource-QM / Verteilte Systeme
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------


  20. Re: [9fans] Do we have a catalog of 9P servers?

    On Tue, Nov 11, 2008 at 11:40 AM, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
    > * Robert Raschke wrote:
    >> On Mon, Nov 10, 2008 at 6:26 AM, Enrico Weigelt wrote:
    >> > * sqweek wrote:
    >> >> Everyone has write access to the plan 9 wiki.
    >> >
    >> > hmm, perhaps I didn't look hard enough, but I didn't see anything
    >> > like an "edit" button etc ... ;-o

    >>
    >> Put in Acme Wiki.

    >
    > Just curious: does this also work w/ p9p (don't have native Plan9
    > running) ? What exactly do I have to type in ?


    Nope, it's not included with p9p. Might be in 9vx, but I haven't
    checked. You can still mount the wiki of course, but I couldn't tell
    you how to edit it without the acme interface.
    http://netlib.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/4/wikifs probably can. See
    http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/rc/bin/9fs and
    http://plan9.bell-labs.com/sources/plan9/lib/ndb/common for the rest
    of the puzzle.
    -sqweek


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