Are there any blind users of Plan 9? - Plan9

This is a discussion on Are there any blind users of Plan 9? - Plan9 ; Hi there, I'm blind, and I use Unix from the text console. I'm interested in trying out Plan 9. It appears to be a very clean system. Are there any blind people in the Plan 9 community? If so, I ...

+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 17 of 17

Thread: Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

  1. Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    Hi there,
    I'm blind, and I use Unix from the text console. I'm interested in
    trying out Plan 9. It appears to be a very clean system. Are there any
    blind people in the Plan 9 community? If so, I am very interested in
    hearing from them.

    -- Chris

  2. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    Hello Chris,

    I don't know anybody blind using the system.
    I actually don't know personally anybody using it.
    But, although the system seems clean to me, I am afraid its use is rather
    mouse-centric, which, for you, may be a huge downside. Plan 9, in my
    opinion, is not suited for just-keyboard use, which you may possibly need...
    But don't take this as a discouragement.

    Ruda

    2008/10/20 Chris Brannon

    > Hi there,
    > I'm blind, and I use Unix from the text console. I'm interested in
    > trying out Plan 9. It appears to be a very clean system. Are there any
    > blind people in the Plan 9 community? If so, I am very interested in
    > hearing from them.
    >
    > -- Chris
    >
    >



  3. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:27 AM, Chris Brannon wrote:
    > Hi there,
    > I'm blind, and I use Unix from the text console. I'm interested in
    > trying out Plan 9. It appears to be a very clean system. Are there any
    > blind people in the Plan 9 community? If so, I am very interested in
    > hearing from them.
    >


    It is a very mouse oriented system which is probably bad.
    By mouse oriented, I mean a lot of the user interface can only be interacted
    with a mouse.

    On the other side, acme is text oriented and rio serves
    files with the (text) contents of the window.
    Both can probably be tweaked a little so that
    an external program (which has yet to be written/ported)
    reads aloud stuff or prints things out through a Braille line, but to
    my knowledge this hasn't been done.

    --
    - curiosity sKilled the cat


  4. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    I was just playing with Inferno this weekend, and what's nice about it
    is that when you are using it hosted, it is simply a process named
    "emu" running in a window and talking to you in text. Your screen
    reader would be able to understand it's output easily.

    Inferno lets you play with the 9p protocol that shares resources
    across a network, and that's really the cleanest and most attractive
    parts of Plan 9. Also, Inferno gives you access to Limbo. Limbo's
    support for concurrency and cross-platform execution is quite
    attractive and should be compatible with a screen reader. The
    "mouse-intensive" part people are talking about is the rio window
    manager and the acme editor.

    On the other hand, programming Limbo with only cat and sed won't be
    too easy, so you'll need suggestions from people on the list for less
    mousy editors. Seems unlikely that Plan 9 people have ported Emacs...
    the massive cognitive dissonance would have likely created a
    singularity which annihilated the programmer in question.

    -jeff

    PS: Heh, just found this: http://lsub.org/magic/man2html/1/emacs


  5. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    > On the other hand, programming Limbo with only cat and sed won't be
    > too easy, so you'll need suggestions from people on the list for less
    > mousy editors.
    > -jeff



    There is a port of vim...
    R.


  6. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    I'm blind in only one eye and have low vision in the other, so I run
    Plan 9 in a virtual machine with an enlarged screen using Mac OS X's
    Universal Access.

    The concept of a Text-to-Speech program for Plan 9 has been floating
    in my head for some time. How can it be made to use some of Plan 9's
    features (/dev/*ctl, /srv, text-based commands, etc.)? I was thinking
    either something like
    echo say (voice) (ipa-pronounciation) > /dev/speech
    echo sayword (voice) (word) > /dev/speech
    then use such a device to build a screen reader.

    PS -
    On Oct 20, 2008, at 6:15 AM, Jeff R. Allen wrote:
    > PS: Heh, just found this: http://lsub.org/magic/man2html/1/emacs


    That's in the PDF. In fact, it's on the GNU Humor page now, too. I
    wonder how vi is related anymore, though.


    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)

    iEYEARECAAYFAkj8XswACgkQuv7AVNQDs+x3OACdF3BxQWihnH mCF4ceroGFlLIR
    b6oAnjqLhWZ3VtosCcHv/QS0sQRogyA4
    =n2w5
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


  7. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    > I'm blind in only one eye and have low vision in the other, so I run
    > Plan 9 in a virtual machine with an enlarged screen using Mac OS X's
    > Universal Access.
    >
    > The concept of a Text-to-Speech program for Plan 9 has been floating
    > in my head for some time. How can it be made to use some of Plan 9's
    > features (/dev/*ctl, /srv, text-based commands, etc.)? I was thinking
    > either something like
    > echo say (voice) (ipa-pronounciation) > /dev/speech
    > echo sayword (voice) (word) > /dev/speech
    > then use such a device to build a screen reader.
    >


    Better to have something like:
    echo 'voice AmericanMale' > /dev/speechctl
    echo 'values of β may give rise to dom!' > /dev/speech
    This way you do all setup in the ctl file and only send the things you
    want said to /dev/speech

    For a simplest first implementation, it may be best to try interfacing
    with a Festival TTS server on a UNIX box rather than developing a
    text-to-speech application for Plan 9--Nemo, isn't that what you have
    at lsub?

    John



  8. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    The bad news is that the existing interface is very
    mouse-oriented and there is no text-to-speech support.

    The good news is that the system, and each part of it,
    is small, so if you don't like something it can be
    replaced. Unlike Windows or Unix, where you can't
    do much about the windowing system, in Plan 9 you
    really can replace it and it's not that much code.

    The bad news is that support for whizzy AJAX browsers,
    etc., is unlikely soon.

    Is there a university near you which has a CHI/HCI
    (Computer-Human/Human-Computer Interaction) degree?
    It might be possible to find a student or two looking
    for a way-out thesis project and help them design
    something interesting. Where are you located?

    Dave Eckhardt


  9. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    Dave Eckhardt writes:

    > The good news is that the system, and each part of it,
    > is small, so if you don't like something it can be
    > replaced. Unlike Windows or Unix, where you can't
    > do much about the windowing system, in Plan 9 you
    > really can replace it and it's not that much code.


    Quite a few people have mentioned the heavy use of the mouse, and that
    is definitely a drawback. Replacing parts of the system does sound like
    a good approach.

    > Is there a university near you which has a CHI/HCI
    > (Computer-Human/Human-Computer Interaction) degree?


    I doubt it, but it might be worth investigating. This is really a hobby
    interest, rather than a necessity. I stumbled upon the Plan 9 papers
    while pursuing my own MS degree in CS.

    An earlier poster mentioned Inferno, and I'm looking into that right
    now.

    Thanks to everyone for the informative replies.

    -- Chris

  10. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    Hey Chris,

    Can you describe how you interact with the system now, and how you'd
    do it if everything was perfect? Do you do much copying and pasting?
    If so how do you determine the boundaries? Do you use a braille
    display or text to speech stuff?

    Noah

    On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 11:06 AM, Chris Brannon wrote:
    > Dave Eckhardt writes:
    >
    >> The good news is that the system, and each part of it,
    >> is small, so if you don't like something it can be
    >> replaced. Unlike Windows or Unix, where you can't
    >> do much about the windowing system, in Plan 9 you
    >> really can replace it and it's not that much code.

    >
    > Quite a few people have mentioned the heavy use of the mouse, and that
    > is definitely a drawback. Replacing parts of the system does sound like
    > a good approach.
    >
    >> Is there a university near you which has a CHI/HCI
    >> (Computer-Human/Human-Computer Interaction) degree?

    >
    > I doubt it, but it might be worth investigating. This is really a hobby
    > interest, rather than a necessity. I stumbled upon the Plan 9 papers
    > while pursuing my own MS degree in CS.
    >
    > An earlier poster mentioned Inferno, and I'm looking into that right
    > now.
    >
    > Thanks to everyone for the informative replies.
    >
    > -- Chris
    >
    >



  11. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    charles ported rsynth some time ago, here's the link

    http://www.terzarima.net/plan9/dist/rsynth.tgz

    On Mon, Oct 20, 2008 at 9:34 AM, Pietro Gagliardi wrote:
    > I'm blind in only one eye and have low vision in the other, so I run Plan 9
    > in a virtual machine with an enlarged screen using Mac OS X's Universal
    > Access.
    > The concept of a Text-to-Speech program for Plan 9 has been floating in my
    > head for some time. How can it be made to use some of Plan 9's features
    > (/dev/*ctl, /srv, text-based commands, etc.)? I was thinking either
    > something like
    > echo say (voice) (ipa-pronounciation) > /dev/speech
    > echo sayword (voice) (word) > /dev/speech
    > then use such a device to build a screen reader.
    > PS -
    > On Oct 20, 2008, at 6:15 AM, Jeff R. Allen wrote:
    >
    > PS: Heh, just found this: http://lsub.org/magic/man2html/1/emacs
    >
    > That's in the PDF. In fact, it's on the GNU Humor page now, too. I wonder
    > how vi is related anymore, though.
    >





  12. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    Charles sent me an email about rsynth. I'll get 9vx and take this up
    (QEMU doesn't support Plan 9's audio system).

    However, I do have some more ideas that would help:

    1) A *blind or visually impaired* option in the installer
    2) An option in rio to automatically open a new window
    3) A window switching program for rio (think alt+tab in Windows)

    It's a good thing the default resolution is 640x480!

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)

    iEYEARECAAYFAkj89OEACgkQuv7AVNQDs+w8JQCeIIvEdoV7kb ty7QUZylaCgc18
    B8oAn3FP/o7qQQZNSIYEfDNdOLuOX8+z
    =0sYF
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


  13. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    > 2) An option in rio to automatically open a new window
    > 3) A window switching program for rio (think alt+tab in Windows)


    For this particular case it's probably better to ditch rio completely and
    write something dedicated to the task at hand.

    As for editors, all you need is ed(1). And believe me, it works. I've
    used it many times to "blind"ly edit config files over bodged up tty
    links.

    --lyndon


  14. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    sam -d is also very powerful, and might be worth learning even for
    unix use, I'm totally ignorant about specialized editors for the
    blind, but if I ever lost my sight, I think sam -d would be all I
    would use.

    (The tutorial on the sam language is most enlightening for everyone,
    even lowly acme users like me:
    http://doc.cat-v.org/bell_labs/sam_lang_tutorial/ )

    uriel

    On Tue, Oct 21, 2008 at 7:00 AM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote:
    >> 2) An option in rio to automatically open a new window
    >> 3) A window switching program for rio (think alt+tab in Windows)

    >
    > For this particular case it's probably better to ditch rio completely and
    > write something dedicated to the task at hand.
    >
    > As for editors, all you need is ed(1). And believe me, it works. I've used
    > it many times to "blind"ly edit config files over bodged up tty links.
    >
    > --lyndon
    >
    >



  15. [9fans] How to go about doing screen reading

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
    Hash: SHA1

    In pseudocode:

    when mouse has not been moved for at least 1 second
    find cursor position
    if cursor has moved
    stop
    find window where cursor is
    if cursor has moved or no text window underneath
    stop
    find line of text in the window device where the cursor is
    say the text
    when F1 is hit
    read out line already typed at open rio window

    Any technical problems with this approach?

    -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
    Version: GnuPG v1.4.8 (Darwin)

    iEYEARECAAYFAkj9sOAACgkQuv7AVNQDs+y/aQCeIuuTrAdNar5BTXXa7oZQNMu7
    9XMAn0qmnR5jup2t7cO8GeczROTOYu70
    =r7hM
    -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----


  16. Re: [9fans] How to go about doing screen reading

    pietro10@mac.com (Pietro Gagliardi) writes:

    > In pseudocode:
    >
    > when mouse has not been moved for at least 1 second
    > find cursor position
    > if cursor has moved

    *SNIP*
    > Any technical problems with this approach?


    I think there is an easier way to do screen reading within Acme. Here's
    a quote from the Acme paper:


    The last file, event, is the most unusual. A program reading a
    window's eventfile is notified of all changes to the text of the
    window, and is asked to interpret all middle- and right-button
    actions. The data passed to the program is fixed-format and reports
    the source of the action (keyboard, mouse, external program, etc.),
    its location (what was pointed at or modified), and its nature
    (change, search, execution, etc.). This message, for example,

    MI15 19 0 4 time

    reports that actions of the mouse (M) inserted in the body (capital
    I) the 4 characters of timeat character positions 15 through 19;
    the zero is a flag word. Programs may apply their own
    interpretations of searching and execution, or may simply reflect
    the events back to Acme, by writing them back to the eventfile, to
    have the default interpretation applied. Some examples of these
    ideas in action are presented below.


    A screenreader can obtain information about changes to the state of the
    system by reading the event file. Do other parts of the window system
    provide this sort of interface?

    -- Chris

  17. Re: [9fans] Are there any blind users of Plan 9?

    why not just ssh into plan9 and use that ?


    btw. no IWP for me

    bugger bugger bollocks


+ Reply to Thread