> Wrong on so many levels.

Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's
_right_ on so many levels.

> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.

A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed
to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem...
GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?

> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"

Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
(Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
through."

> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices
> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from
> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million
> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.

The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved
years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX,
and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to
get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.

Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does
it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you
do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier
OS?

Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.

> If you are not like that, leave.

No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post
was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's
originator.


--On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:25 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi
wrote:

> On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>
>> That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've
>> gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related
>> software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done
>> (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other
>> people what they should do and how they should do it and why any
>> other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as
>> minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't
>> believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."
>
> Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a
> completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way:
> tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that
> provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8
> text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages
> transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a
> mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like
> that, leave.
>
>

On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
>> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.
>
> A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people
> claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not
> UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?

No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the
point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some
extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer
now, does it?)

>> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"
>
> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one
> email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words
> "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or
> "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's
> see if "the mail goes through."
>

Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a
trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/
keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as
sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug.

>> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even
>> devices
>> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file
>> from
>> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
>> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a
>> million
>> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.
>
> The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was
> paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was
> built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem
> begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.
>
> Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already?
> Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded
> OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for
> some other livelier OS?
>
> Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.
>

My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P.
I'm saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc:

gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this
motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg

Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?

As for filesystem usage,

echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons

Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple.

>> If you are not like that, leave.
>
> No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left.
> The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the
> thread's originator.
>

Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open
your eyes.

On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:

> What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there
> easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--
> a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If
> no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more
> widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3.

- Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few
other projects.
- Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it?
- Goofing off: lots of free games

The point of this all?

Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating
system. It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just
increasing (or decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to
care, **** off. You've done that to us already, on many occasions.

Eris Discordia schrieb:
> Been there, done that.
>
> --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:00 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi
> wrote:
>
>> I have an idea, Eris. Why don't you **** off and actually USE Plan 9 for
>> once?
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
"Unspeakable horrors from outer space paralyze the living and resurrect
the dead"

Isn`t that the manifesto of Plan 9?

BB

Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the L
in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
is safe to assume you are not a muslim. It is also "As-salaamu",
there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".

"marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.





On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia
wrote:

> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם"
> (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my
> address. Let's see if "the mail goes through."

One more bit on Arabic:

In a predicative sentence the subject is necessarily "Marfu'" (=
"مرفوع") which means it either has a "damma" (= "ضمه") or a
"dammatan" (= "ضمهٌ") on the ending letter. Whether the "damma" or the
"dammaton" is used depends on whether the subject is "Ma'rafa" (=
"معرفه", "known") or "Nakara" (= "نکره", "unknown"). When "Salam"
has the definite article "Al" it is considered "Ma'rafa" and therefore
receives the "damma" but when it is used without that article it is
"Nakara" and receives the "dammaton." So, both forms "Al-Salam-u" and
"Salam-on" are correct. However, the greeting in actual use is "Salam-on
alaikom."

--On Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:27 AM +0300 John Waters
wrote:

> Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the L
> in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
> you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
> only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
> is safe to assume you are not a muslim. It is also "As-salaamu",
> there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".
>
> "marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia
> wrote:
>
>> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
>> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
>> עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
>> (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
>> through."