Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor - Plan9

This is a discussion on Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor - Plan9 ; > Wrong on so many levels. Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's _right_ on so many levels. > Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler. A UNIX better than ...

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Thread: Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor

  1. Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor

    > Wrong on so many levels.

    Go read the responses 9people gave the original poster. You'll see why it's
    _right_ on so many levels.

    > Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.


    A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people claimed
    to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not UNIX?" Ahem...
    GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?

    > "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"


    Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
    through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
    עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
    (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
    through."

    > "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices
    > and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file from
    > a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
    > filesystem report how much free space is left without running a million
    > commands or typing a thousand lines of code.


    The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was paved
    years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was built on UNIX,
    and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem begins when you want to
    get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.

    Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already? Does
    it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded OS? Did you
    do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for some other livelier
    OS?

    Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.

    > If you are not like that, leave.


    No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left. The post
    was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the thread's
    originator.


    --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 6:25 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi
    wrote:

    > On Aug 19, 2008, at 6:00 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
    >
    >> That's the gist of responses you've received before this one. I've
    >> gone through these 9ish episodes twice. Plan 9 and the related
    >> software just isn't for someone who wants to Get Their Job Done
    >> (tm). It's a "research" platform for those who want to "tell" other
    >> people what they should do and how they should do it and why any
    >> other way would be "sacrilege." No wonder it has remained as
    >> minuscule and insignificant--9people tell you it's "nimble," don't
    >> believe them--as it is after like 24 years of "development."

    >
    > Wrong on so many levels. Plan 9 lets you Get The Job Done(TM), but in a
    > completely different way from *your* approach. Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way:
    > tools that make jobs simpler. This is augmented by 33 libraries that
    > provide common utilities in a transparent way. "Everything is a UTF-8
    > text file or a mountable filesystem, even devices and severs" encourages
    > transparency of modules: you can copy a file from a Gopher network to a
    > mobile phone or without running a million commands. If you are not like
    > that, leave.
    >
    >







  2. Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor

    On Aug 19, 2008, at 7:51 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:
    >> Plan 9 obeys the UNIX way: tools that make jobs simpler.

    >
    > A UNIX better than UNIX? I thought that was just the thing 9people
    > claimed to be past. Didn't I hear someone saying, "Plan 9 is not
    > UNIX?" Ahem... GNU's Not UNIX, too, nah?


    No, that's not what I said. I said that Plan 9 obeys the UNIX
    philosophy, not that it was UNIX. GNU obeys this philosophy (up to the
    point of where to draw the lines on the size of tools). And to some
    extent, Windows (Windows Movie Maker doesn't call up another computer
    now, does it?)

    >> "Everything is a UTF-8 [...]"

    >
    > Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one
    > email through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words
    > "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or
    > "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's
    > see if "the mail goes through."
    >


    Mac, and I use OS X Mail (so I can get my hands on IMAP's folder
    system). How about the fact that Simon was able to give you a
    trademark symbol? Do yourself a favor: YOU test it. Look in /lib/
    keyboard for some characters and send them here. If they come back as
    sent, you've proven my point. Otherwise, you found a bug.

    >> "Everything is a UTF-8 text file or a mountable filesystem, even
    >> devices
    >> and severs" encourages transparency of modules: you can copy a file
    >> from
    >> a Gopher network in Tokyo to a mobile phone from Mexico or have the
    >> filesystem report how much free space is left without running a
    >> million
    >> commands or typing a thousand lines of code.

    >
    > The path from Gopher to your PC--or it was a Mac that you had?--was
    > paved years ago on UNIX. Then the path from Tokyo to Mexico was
    > built on UNIX, and today it _runs_ on UNIX. Now, the real problem
    > begins when you want to get your cell phone to talk 9P-over-IP.
    >
    > Do you have a 9P client for your cell phone? You "wrote" it already?
    > Does it run on Java? Or Symbian? Or Vendor X's proprietary embedded
    > OS? Did you do it on Plan 9? Or did you snatch an SDK written for
    > some other livelier OS?
    >
    > Go fool someone else with your empty rhetoric, buddy.
    >


    My rhetoric is not empty. I am not saying go ahead and write that 9P.
    I'm saying the jobs are trivial, only three lines of rc:

    gopherfs -m/n/gopher tokyo.ac.jp # Demonstration; don't try this
    motorola -m/n/cell -M 'RAZR V3' 555 555 5555
    cp /n/gopher/a/b/r.tokyo.jpg /n/cell/pictures/r.tokyo.jpg

    Write that in sockets. Since that is what you use, don't you?

    As for filesystem usage,

    echo fsys all df | con -l /srv/fscons

    Go look up the source for GNU df, and tell me if it's that simple.

    >> If you are not like that, leave.

    >
    > No, I _am_ not like that. I also _don't_ like that. And I've left.
    > The post was not for you to chew on, it was for the benefit of the
    > thread's originator.
    >


    Good riddance. But you're missing a wonderful opportunity. Just open
    your eyes.

    On Aug 19, 2008, at 8:10 PM, Eris Discordia wrote:

    > What exactly do you Get Done (tm) on Plan 9? I mean, aren't there
    > easier ways to do it? If yes, staying on Plan 9 is simply "fanity"--
    > a la vanity-- and "fanity" is beyond reason; my reason, at least. If
    > no, how come your job's so specific that can't be done on much more
    > widely used systems? Probably it's just 1-3.


    - Programming in userland: mainly compiler design, along with a few
    other projects.
    - Document typesetting (I love troff). That's not on your list, is it?
    - Goofing off: lots of free games

    The point of this all?

    Plan 9 is not JUST a research system. It is a complete operating
    system. It has great tools for making greater tools, or for just
    increasing (or decreasing) your productivity. If you're too blunt to
    care, **** off. You've done that to us already, on many occasions.



  3. Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor

    Eris Discordia schrieb:
    > Been there, done that.
    >
    > --On Tuesday, August 19, 2008 10:00 PM -0400 Pietro Gagliardi
    > wrote:
    >
    >> I have an idea, Eris. Why don't you **** off and actually USE Plan 9 for
    >> once?
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >

    "Unspeakable horrors from outer space paralyze the living and resurrect
    the dead"

    Isn`t that the manifesto of Plan 9?

    BB


  4. Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor

    Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the L
    in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
    you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
    only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
    is safe to assume you are not a muslim. It is also "As-salaamu",
    there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".

    "marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.





    On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia
    wrote:

    > Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
    > through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם עֲלֵיכֶם"
    > (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم" (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my
    > address. Let's see if "the mail goes through."


  5. Re: [9fans] Using the Acme Editor

    One more bit on Arabic:

    In a predicative sentence the subject is necessarily "Marfu'" (=
    "مرفوع") which means it either has a "damma" (= "ضمه") or a
    "dammatan" (= "ضمهٌ") on the ending letter. Whether the "damma" or the
    "dammaton" is used depends on whether the subject is "Ma'rafa" (=
    "معرفه", "known") or "Nakara" (= "نکره", "unknown"). When "Salam"
    has the definite article "Al" it is considered "Ma'rafa" and therefore
    receives the "damma" but when it is used without that article it is
    "Nakara" and receives the "dammaton." So, both forms "Al-Salam-u" and
    "Salam-on" are correct. However, the greeting in actual use is "Salam-on
    alaikom."

    --On Sunday, August 24, 2008 10:27 AM +0300 John Waters
    wrote:

    > Small correction, it is actually " ال سلام " , or "As-Salaam" (the L
    > in AL elides with "shams" letters). It would also be inappropriate for
    > you to receive such a greeting, which is a du'a reserved for muslims
    > only. Since you are using the name "Eris, is the name of a "deity", it
    > is safe to assume you are not a muslim. It is also "As-salaamu",
    > there is a "damma" or "u" vowel atop then meem in "salaam".
    >
    > "marhaban" is a more appropriate greeting in this case.
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 2:51 AM, Eris Discordia
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Do me a favor. Fire up your beloved upas, use mail, and relay one email
    >> through upas/smtpd to smtp.gmail.com:587 with the words "שָׁלוֹם
    >> עֲלֵיכֶם" (Hebrew, Shalom aleichem) or "سلام علیکم"
    >> (Arabic, Salam-on alaikom) to my address. Let's see if "the mail goes
    >> through."



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