[9fans] XML - Plan9

This is a discussion on [9fans] XML - Plan9 ; This one is interesting: "The acmpolicy class implements a compiler for translating an XML policy into their binary format and provides functionality for comparing a current policy against a new one when changing a policy." So, translate XML to binary ...

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 51

Thread: [9fans] XML

  1. [9fans] XML

    This one is interesting:
    "The acmpolicy class implements a compiler for translating an XML policy
    into their binary format and provides functionality for comparing a
    current policy against a new one when changing a policy."

    So, translate XML to binary to use it?

    But it's a standard, right? I can't tell you how many times a day
    people tell me they're doing something in XML ... "it's the standard"
    -- not "A", but "THE".

    Let's see:

    <9p>TR10>/binary>...


    well, you get my drift.

    Shouldn't we move 9p to a standards-based, compliant, XML-based system
    with first-class enumerated elements in which all pluggable components
    are Python objects and hence first-class citizens and add a full
    compiler to enable translation and XML co-processor acceleration?

    Can I randomly permute the words in the previous sentence? Yes.
    Is that sentence like stuff I read nowadays? Yes.
    Is constant gnashing wearing off the enamel on my teeth? Yes, oh yes.

    ron

  2. Re: [9fans] XML

    ron minnich wrote:
    > This one is interesting:
    > "The acmpolicy class implements a compiler for translating an XML policy
    > into their binary format and provides functionality for comparing a
    > current policy against a new one when changing a policy."
    >
    > So, translate XML to binary to use it?
    >
    > But it's a standard, right? I can't tell you how many times a day
    > people tell me they're doing something in XML ... "it's the standard"
    > -- not "A", but "THE".
    >
    > Let's see:
    >
    > <9p>TR10>/binary>...
    >
    >
    >
    > well, you get my drift.
    >
    > Shouldn't we move 9p to a standards-based, compliant, XML-based system
    > with first-class enumerated elements in which all pluggable components
    > are Python objects and hence first-class citizens and add a full
    > compiler to enable translation and XML co-processor acceleration?
    >
    > Can I randomly permute the words in the previous sentence? Yes.
    > Is that sentence like stuff I read nowadays? Yes.
    > Is constant gnashing wearing off the enamel on my teeth? Yes, oh yes.
    >
    > ron
    >


    Not to worry!

    Sign of the times.

    'Standards based' has simply replaced 'they say' as the biggest liar in the world.

    Going the other way, we can now shave 3 bytes:

    'progress' can be expressed as 'bloat'

    Bill

  3. Re: [9fans] XML

    On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 09:57 -0700, ron minnich wrote:
    > <9p>TR10>/binary>...


    ROTFL ;-)

    Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion? I'm really
    curious.

    Thanks,
    Roman.


  4. Re: [9fans] XML

    Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
    > On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 09:57 -0700, ron minnich wrote:
    >> <9p>TR10>/binary>...

    >
    > ROTFL ;-)
    >
    > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > that we kind of forget that it can be useful.


    ACK.. And ingesting tapework scollix can help one lise weight...

    > I do have a couple of
    > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion? I'm really
    > curious.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Roman.
    >
    >


    If printed out on sufficiently soft paper, yes, XML is as useful as any other
    drivel.

    But few printers, laser or inkjet, can handle roll-feed, quilted and puffed or
    otherwise.

    ;-)

    Bill

  5. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/21/07, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:

    > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?


    It's good at what it's good for. I think the move to XML as the
    universal glue is more driven because people are desperate for
    something and XML is all they can see .

    But it's very sad to see people talking about binary converters and
    XML co-processors, or to watch 100 bytes of data contained in 3000
    bytes of XML ...

    ron

  6. Re: [9fans] XML

    > > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion? I'm really
    > > curious.


    In omero, I've found recently a place where using XML to convey the UI tree from
    the UI server to the viewer would win (perhaps) wrt using a file tree.
    this particular
    case is when the link between the omero server and the UI viewer has a
    really bad
    latency. In this case, the current viewer scans the tree (one level at
    a time) to see
    changes and update the UI. Even when notified of subtrees that changes, it still
    has to read the root of the subtree (one RPC), do the same for inner
    panels (another),
    and so and so and so.

    However, we're still experimenting with this and I think that just
    placing a "toc" file
    in the root of the tree (with the equivalent of du -a) would permit
    the viewer doing its
    work in just two RPCs.

    Of course, using a real fs instead of xml lets us use all the fs
    tools, as you all know,
    that's why we don't actually use xml. But since you asked, I have to
    say that that's
    the only place I've seriously considered using xml (or similar) to
    replace a file tree.

    Perhaps others have more cases where xml could be helpful.

  7. Re: [9fans] XML

    > Shouldn't we move 9p to a standards-based, compliant, XML-based system
    > with first-class enumerated elements in which all pluggable components
    > are Python objects and hence first-class citizens and add a full
    > compiler to enable translation and XML co-processor acceleration?
    >
    > Can I randomly permute the words in the previous sentence? Yes.
    > Is that sentence like stuff I read nowadays? Yes.


    Can you please use XML tags for humor? That'd make humor
    recognition a purely parsing problem. Thanks!

    In a previous job I used sexprs for flinging structured data
    about between nodes. I justified their use as compiled XML.
    You can guess what happened once I left....

    > Is that sentence like stuff I read nowadays? Yes.
    > Is constant gnashing wearing off the enamel on my teeth? Yes, oh yes.


    Use of a dental nightguard is recommended.

  8. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/21/07, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
    > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion?


    No.

    But XML creates jobs, so it must be good for the economy.

    uriel

  9. Re: [9fans] XML

    > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion? I'm really
    > curious.


    i think a better question is, can you think of an application for xml that
    can't be done more simply?

    the debate over typed variables in programming languages is pretty well over.
    but i think asn/1 and xml seem to show that data type definitions can get
    out of control. and that the dtd is itself a program that needs debugging.

    - erik

  10. Re: [9fans] XML

    > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion? I'm really
    > curious.


    its usefulness is largely due to the critical mass of software that
    now supports it. popular browsers support DOMParser, XSLTProcessor,
    etc. other approaches -- sexpr and sexpr with embedded js for
    transformations -- would be as useful.

    XML's ornateness reminds me of the historical accounts of the French
    aristocracy just before the revolution; wasteful opulence manifesting
    itself in how people dressed: wigs, massive makeup and ridiculous
    outfits. it can't possibly last.

    p.s. obviously, i'm wrong:

    http://www.computerworld.com/action/...ntsrc=hm_topic


  11. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/21/07, erik quanstrom wrote:
    > i think a better question is, can you think of an application for xml that
    > can't be done more simply?


    "The essence of XML is this: the problem it solves is not hard, and it
    does not solve the problem well." -- Phil Wadler, POPL 2003


    > the debate over typed variables in programming languages is pretty well over.
    > but i think asn/1 and xml seem to show that data type definitions can get
    > out of control. and that the dtd is itself a program that needs debugging.


    If you think DTDs are out of control, you should look at XML Schema
    some time... gives a new dimension to the meaning of 'megalomaniacal'.

    uriel

  12. Re: [9fans] XML

    ron minnich wrote:
    > This one is interesting:

    Parse error, expecting something interesting, got old discussion about
    XML being used because its fashionable.

  13. Re: [9fans] XML



    On a related note:

    Somebody at Sun decided that the thing Unix needed most of all was a way
    to programmatically manipulate "init" via XML. What's worse is that a
    completely independent team at Apple committed a starkly similar atrocity
    at almost the same time.

    http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/content/...uickstart.html

    http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html

    Could someone explain this to me? Why would you do this? How could this
    possibly be a net improvement?

    -GBA





    >
    > <9p>TR10>/binary>...
    >
    >
    > well, you get my drift.
    >
    > Shouldn't we move 9p to a standards-based, compliant, XML-based system
    > with first-class enumerated elements in which all pluggable components
    > are Python objects and hence first-class citizens and add a full
    > compiler to enable translation and XML co-processor acceleration?
    >
    > Can I randomly permute the words in the previous sentence? Yes.
    > Is that sentence like stuff I read nowadays? Yes.
    > Is constant gnashing wearing off the enamel on my teeth? Yes, oh yes.
    >


  14. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/21/07, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
    > etc. other approaches -- sexpr and sexpr with embedded js for
    > transformations -- would be as useful.


    What do you think would be the fastest/best way to implement something
    like this as a proof-of-concept or stepping stone?

    -Jack

  15. Re: [9fans] XML

    You have no heart, programmers have families to feed! This will keep
    hundreds of programmers employed for years to come.

    uriel

    P.S.: And be careful, you might offend the Apple and Sun fanboys in
    the audience.

    On 5/21/07, Geoffrey Avila wrote:
    >
    >
    > On a related note:
    >
    > Somebody at Sun decided that the thing Unix needed most of all was a way
    > to programmatically manipulate "init" via XML. What's worse is that a
    > completely independent team at Apple committed a starkly similar atrocity
    > at almost the same time.
    >
    > http://www.sun.com/bigadmin/content/...uickstart.html
    >
    > http://developer.apple.com/macosx/launchd.html
    >
    > Could someone explain this to me? Why would you do this? How could this
    > possibly be a net improvement?
    >
    > -GBA
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >
    > > <9p>TR10>/binary>...
    > >
    > >
    > > well, you get my drift.
    > >
    > > Shouldn't we move 9p to a standards-based, compliant, XML-based system
    > > with first-class enumerated elements in which all pluggable components
    > > are Python objects and hence first-class citizens and add a full
    > > compiler to enable translation and XML co-processor acceleration?
    > >
    > > Can I randomly permute the words in the previous sentence? Yes.
    > > Is that sentence like stuff I read nowadays? Yes.
    > > Is constant gnashing wearing off the enamel on my teeth? Yes, oh yes.
    > >

    >


  16. Re: [9fans] XML

    A GSoC student is implementing a 9P client in JS, that will be a nice
    first step to replace the AJAX XML crud.

    uriel

    On 5/21/07, Jack Johnson wrote:
    > On 5/21/07, Skip Tavakkolian <9nut@9netics.com> wrote:
    > > etc. other approaches -- sexpr and sexpr with embedded js for
    > > transformations -- would be as useful.

    >
    > What do you think would be the fastest/best way to implement something
    > like this as a proof-of-concept or stepping stone?
    >
    > -Jack
    >


  17. Re: [9fans] XML

    >> etc. other approaches -- sexpr and sexpr with embedded js for
    >> transformations -- would be as useful.

    >
    > What do you think would be the fastest/best way to implement something
    > like this as a proof-of-concept or stepping stone?


    not exactly plan9 related, but...

    i assume the consumer will be a browser. probably do one in
    javascript. despite its name, XMLHttpRequest can fetch anything.
    check out the link below and take a look at jabberzilla sources on
    code.google.com.

    http://javascript.crockford.com/little.html

    could just use an rc script to generate the content, probably using
    this handy program: /n/sources/contrib/rsc/cgi.c


  18. Re: [9fans] XML

    On Mon, 21 May 2007, Uriel wrote:

    > You have no heart, programmers have families to feed! This will keep
    > hundreds of programmers employed for years to come.
    >
    > uriel
    >
    > P.S.: And be careful, you might offend the Apple and Sun fanboys in
    > the audience.


    As a self-described Apple/Sun "fanboy", I'm trying to figure out why two
    normally mostly-sane companies would willfully mutilate their OS in this
    particular manner. I've never heard a peep out of anyone claiming how the
    problems they sought to remedy with these new methods were insurmountable
    w/o spraying XML all over the place...

    -GBA



  19. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/21/07, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
    > On Mon, 2007-05-21 at 09:57 -0700, ron minnich wrote:
    > > <9p>TR10>/binary>...

    >
    > ROTFL ;-)
    >
    > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?
    > Do you remember XML being helpful on any particular occasion? I'm really
    > curious.
    >
    > Thanks,
    > Roman.
    >


    XHTML, on the surface, seems better thought out than plain old HTML.
    That doesn't mean I like any of them though :-)

    I once wrote a paper in Docbook, and was able to convert it to a PDF
    via about 4 passes of XSLT processing. Then I remembered that LaTeX
    can do that a lot faster, and never went back to Docbook. Not to
    mention Docbook causes RSI faster than LaTeX from my experience with
    badly hurting wrists and numbness in my fingers from all the <>\ etc.
    :-)

    XML has succeeded in making me accept and write more Lisp/Scheme these
    days which isn't too bad for well roundedness.

    Also some friends of mine and I have an XML markup based archiver for
    files on various Unix like OSes called "xar". I think it started as a
    joke but it's so good at backing up resource forks, extended
    attributes, and other nuances of various unixes of the day that I've
    started using it for backup purposes on Mac OS X :-)

    Apple even picked it up, made a bunch of changes, and gave us some
    patches. It might just end up in Leopard.

    If you care:
    http://code.google.com/p/xar/

    It's been fun to hack on anyway. Not that I've done much with it in a while.

    About the only really neat thing, I think, about the table of contents
    being in XML is that you can embed subdocuments in the archives
    themselves. Some folks started using it as a back end for packaging
    systems, not sure if they ever completed. Apple might be one of them,
    but I won't ever know until that next release is out.

    It's not clear to me that XML is easy for either humans or computers
    to read, which is what I thought was one of its selling points.

    Dave

  20. Re: [9fans] XML

    On 5/21/07, ron minnich wrote:
    > On 5/21/07, Roman Shaposhnik wrote:
    >
    > > Seriously, though, we all hate XML so much for all the right reasons
    > > that we kind of forget that it can be useful. I do have a couple of
    > > use cases I consider XML being appropriate at. But what about you guys?

    >
    > It's good at what it's good for. I think the move to XML as the
    > universal glue is more driven because people are desperate for
    > something and XML is all they can see .
    >
    > But it's very sad to see people talking about binary converters and
    > XML co-processors, or to watch 100 bytes of data contained in 3000
    > bytes of XML ...
    >
    > ron
    >



    I've actually seen FPGAs set up for XML processing... I thought that
    was quite amusing :-)

+ Reply to Thread
Page 1 of 3 1 2 3 LastLast